Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Ialnyien]

 

 

So, my understanding is that Rand no longer needs to channel. If i remember correctly the children he has with Aviendha are the same. Does this not allude to at least them meeting again?

His children do need to channel, but they are constantly holding saidin/saidar. They dont have to reach for it or enter the void. The are born with it while others dont start until puberty.

Rand no longer can channel, he was burnt out. He seems to be able to effect the pattern. He thought of his pipe being lit, pattern wove it lit.

Begs the question of why the children channel as they do. Simple answer is because of rand being able to.

[Prettyfox]

 

I think the people arguing about Rand not killing the dark one are missing the entire point...

 

The pattern isn't good or evil, however, the Creator and the Dark One are. The Creator is inherently good and the Dark One is inherently bad. They both affect the pattern in different ways, and if you were to remove one entity, then the other would reign supreme. If the pattern is unaffected by the dark one, then the Creator will influence it more greatly and get rid of the shadow that hides in the hearts of all...

 

I don't like the reasoning myself. A world without violence can't exist because people don't have the free will to be evil? I don't like it, I hated how easily Rand was swayed ... but I understand it (in relation to the book series) and can deal with it. My issue was that it was even a plot point - I don't think the series would have lost out at all had Rand aimed to Seal the Bore all along instead of coming up with the idea to kill the Dark One. It seemed weird that for all the wisdom Rand gained post-VoG that his views could be shaken by a potential future of Aviendha playing with some children.

 

The entire explanation of it we saw from Rand's PoV frustrated me - it lacked finesse in the same way VoG did (and the end to the Mistborn trilogy) - because what we were shown in this chapter didn't really feel sufficient enough to do to Rand what it did.

 

The Dark One fight felt a bit anti-climatic and vague to myself, and though I think Sanderson has done a decent job with Rand over the last three books I thought his actual story in AMOL lacked excitement and the problems I have just mentioned aren't really Rand-specific.

 

Anyway, i was hugely glad that Rand lived, his character deserved it and I'd have been distraught had he died. I have little problem with the pipe thing, but found it weird he could leave his father and childhood friends believing he was dead. 

He wasn't swayed by Aviendha playing with children. he went into the world where the dark one no longer existed and nothing was "right." The attitude that Elayne had wasn't correct at all, and there was a "shadow deep in her eye." The description of the shadow was similar to the description of those who had been "Turned."  It more than likely had something to do with the fact that Elayne's attitude was without aggression.

[Ryrin]

 

 

I was definitely left with a "Jesus" impression at the end.  And we thought TOM Rand was Jesus Rand.

 

So, I'm guessing he'll spend his days traveling the land, seeing new places, meeting new people, and performing the occasional miracle.  Not a bad way to go.  I wonder, though, if he's now immortal, or if he has a normal, non-channeler life span.

 

Interesting that Egwene seemingly becomes part of the pattern, and Rand becomes a more mundane kind of walking God.  Are kids have finally grown up

Yeah I got that feel as well really.

 

As much as I don't mind the idea of him walking off into obscurity, it also bothers me with the implications.

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne are just going to forget about it? I have a feeling Min will follow him as the other two are so duty bound. But what about his kids? Including the ones that he's supposed to have other than the twins? Or will Rand just pop up one day with God powers and decide to play daddy in secret or something? I dunno, it bugged me a little to say the least lol.

 

 

 

I agree that Avi has a duty to her people and also the injuries to her feet. Elayne has her crown and Andor. Didn't Rand mention he had enough money to buy a farm in the Two Rivers? I too, think that it would be Min who would follow him.

 

Rand already said he would not be there for Elayne's children.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

I was definitely left with a "Jesus" impression at the end.  And we thought TOM Rand was Jesus Rand.

 

So, I'm guessing he'll spend his days traveling the land, seeing new places, meeting new people, and performing the occasional miracle.  Not a bad way to go.  I wonder, though, if he's now immortal, or if he has a normal, non-channeler life span.

 

Interesting that Egwene seemingly becomes part of the pattern, and Rand becomes a more mundane kind of walking God.  Are kids have finally grown up

Yeah I got that feel as well really.

 

As much as I don't mind the idea of him walking off into obscurity, it also bothers me with the implications.

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne are just going to forget about it? I have a feeling Min will follow him as the other two are so duty bound. But what about his kids? Including the ones that he's supposed to have other than the twins? Or will Rand just pop up one day with God powers and decide to play daddy in secret or something? I dunno, it bugged me a little to say the least lol.

 

 

I agree that Avi has a duty to her people and also the injuries to her feet. Elayne has her crown and Andor. Didn't Rand mention he had enough money to buy a farm in the Two Rivers? I too, think that it would be Min who would follow him.

 

Rand already said he would not be there for Elayne's children.

I think he's heading to the Island of the Mad Men.

 

oh, another fun part to consider.

Rand managed to fullfill the Sharan Prophecy to.

[Jon Paul]

he will return and inspire men to open a bore, as LTT the destroyer, and the cycle will begin anew, until Rand comes back to repair the world.

Lews Therin didn't inspire any one to open the Bore. He had nothing to do with Lanfear's project. And nor was he a destroyer. He preserved to the best of his abilities.

[pmtang]

Rand was with Aviendha the night before Fields of Merrilor.  Could she not have gotten with child then?

[Heronz]

its sad that we never hear if there is a child with Min ... probably the best of the three.

[Hopefire]

So anyone still disagree about rand boneheaded decision to destroy the choedan kal?

 

oh my god it's too powerful to use it!!

 

I bet logain would have made use of it against demy, taim and the sharans

...and everyone else.

 

Good-bye, Pax Draconis, hello Emperor Logain the Terrible. I think that Logain's POV indicates fairly strongly that he's better off as a person and the world is better off with Logain not having god-like might at his fingertips, regardless of how it would have swayed the Last Battle in the short term.

[MarkDiLillo]

So anyone still disagree about rand boneheaded decision to destroy the choedan kal? oh my god it's too powerful to use it!! I bet logain would have made use of it against demy, taim and the sharans

 

lolll

 

this times 100.

[Mat is Better]

I am actually surprised no one has quoted page 891, "He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.  It never had been."  

 

The DO was not our problem, it was our greed for power that help thin a place in the pattern that unsettled the balance of good and evil.  There need to be that balance...that CHOICE.  If there is no evil option to choose, then good is all there is and we are FORCED into that option.  Think of anything you are forced to do.  Is it your best work?  Is your heart into it? No, we would be turned into good robots and as we saw in that version of the pattern, it was bad...Not right.

 

What Rand did is re-balance good and evil.  Now they both have equal "touch" on the world and people now have equal choice.  Remember that CHOICE is the recurring theme here.  The people Turned had no choice and they were very average has evil people, the same would be for good people.  Choice to fight for your world, choice to die, choice...

 

The DO is essential to the balance of the pattern, but nothing special to us if we do not choose it to be so.  

Exactly.  I think 99% of people in this thread need to go back and read page 891.  The DO is evil incarnate.  He doesn't really affect the world because he exists outside of the patter.  He isn't really a threat to the world unless greedy people make him that way.  It was the greed of the people in the AoL that broke open his prison, but even then he would have been relatively harmless without the Forsaken selling themselves to him in exchange for the True Power.  Without all of his minions all of which either chose to follow him or were compelled to follow him by others that followed him: it seems like his power to affect the world is actually pretty insignificant.

 

I contend that Rand was exactly right.  The DO is necessary and the Creator intentionally entombed him (read: evil/potential for evil) near the pattern, so that people could have real freedom to choose.

[Agitel]

 

I am actually surprised no one has quoted page 891, "He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.  It never had been."  

 

The DO was not our problem, it was our greed for power that help thin a place in the pattern that unsettled the balance of good and evil.  There need to be that balance...that CHOICE.  If there is no evil option to choose, then good is all there is and we are FORCED into that option.  Think of anything you are forced to do.  Is it your best work?  Is your heart into it? No, we would be turned into good robots and as we saw in that version of the pattern, it was bad...Not right.

 

What Rand did is re-balance good and evil.  Now they both have equal "touch" on the world and people now have equal choice.  Remember that CHOICE is the recurring theme here.  The people Turned had no choice and they were very average has evil people, the same would be for good people.  Choice to fight for your world, choice to die, choice...

 

The DO is essential to the balance of the pattern, but nothing special to us if we do not choose it to be so.  

Exactly.  I think 99% of people in this thread need to go back and read page 891.  The DO is evil incarnate.  He doesn't really affect the world because he exists outside of the patter.  He isn't really a threat to the world unless greedy people make him that way.  It was the greed of the people in the AoL that broke open his prison, but even then he would have been relatively harmless without the Forsaken selling themselves to him in exchange for the True Power.  Without all of his minions all of which either chose to follow him or were compelled to follow him by others that followed him: it seems like his power to affect the world is actually pretty insignificant.

 

I contend that Rand was exactly right.  The DO is necessary and the Creator intentionally entombed him (read: evil/potential for evil) near the pattern, so that people could have real freedom to choose.

 

I don't even just want to call him the embodiment of evil. He's the manifestation of a whole host of possible personality traits. It seems like if he was eliminated everyone would be like Galad (though with no concept of violence), always doing the "right" thing. People would be stripped of their ability to do otherwise, or be otherwise. It would completely change everyone Rand knows and loves, too, stripping them of much of their personality away from people he knows. And if they can't conceive anything negative, then they're not even making a choice. They're not acting good because it's moral, they're acting good because it's all that is. It's not like Satan where he's there to tempt people, it's as if he's just the embodiment of a force.

 

I'm not quite sure if I like Rand's solution to not touching the Dark One. I feel like we talked to death about the idea of using the TP to touch the DO and ruled that out.

[phoenixtrinity]

On Rand now weaving the pattern - how does this not put him on the same level as the Creator? Couldn't he just 'will' the pattern to do whatever on Randland he pleases, such as seal away the Dark One permanently somehow? It seems a bit odd.

[Mat is Better]

 

 

I am actually surprised no one has quoted page 891, "He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.  It never had been."  

 

The DO was not our problem, it was our greed for power that help thin a place in the pattern that unsettled the balance of good and evil.  There need to be that balance...that CHOICE.  If there is no evil option to choose, then good is all there is and we are FORCED into that option.  Think of anything you are forced to do.  Is it your best work?  Is your heart into it? No, we would be turned into good robots and as we saw in that version of the pattern, it was bad...Not right.

 

What Rand did is re-balance good and evil.  Now they both have equal "touch" on the world and people now have equal choice.  Remember that CHOICE is the recurring theme here.  The people Turned had no choice and they were very average has evil people, the same would be for good people.  Choice to fight for your world, choice to die, choice...

 

The DO is essential to the balance of the pattern, but nothing special to us if we do not choose it to be so.  

Exactly.  I think 99% of people in this thread need to go back and read page 891.  The DO is evil incarnate.  He doesn't really affect the world because he exists outside of the patter.  He isn't really a threat to the world unless greedy people make him that way.  It was the greed of the people in the AoL that broke open his prison, but even then he would have been relatively harmless without the Forsaken selling themselves to him in exchange for the True Power.  Without all of his minions all of which either chose to follow him or were compelled to follow him by others that followed him: it seems like his power to affect the world is actually pretty insignificant.

 

I contend that Rand was exactly right.  The DO is necessary and the Creator intentionally entombed him (read: evil/potential for evil) near the pattern, so that people could have real freedom to choose.

 

I don't even just want to call him the embodiment of evil. He's the manifestation of a whole host of possible personality traits. It seems like if he was eliminated everyone would be like Galad (though with no concept of violence), always doing the "right" thing. People would be stripped of their ability to do otherwise, or be otherwise. It would completely change everyone Rand knows and loves, too, stripping them of much of their personality away from people he knows. And if they can't conceive anything negative, then they're not even making a choice. They're not acting good because it's moral, they're acting good because it's all that is. It's not like Satan where he's there to tempt people, it's as if he's just the embodiment of a force.

 

I'm not quite sure if I like Rand's solution to not touching the Dark One. I feel like we talked to death about the idea of using the TP to touch the DO and ruled that out.

Well said.  I didn't really like the way the TP was used as a barrier either.  It was laughable that he couldn't cut someone off to the TP because they had drawn too much.  He cuts people off from the TP all the time in the series.  Would've preferred the Fain alternative as we've already seen the power of SL used to clean the Taint.

[Vassili]

Except for Elan and Moghedien at the end, the DO always limited the amount of TP anyone could access. I always wondered why he didn't just give them all as much as they desired. At the end he gave Moghedien full access and she briefly become pretty powerful. If all the Forsaken had been given unlimited access the forces of the Shadow would have been pretty hard to stop. The ending explains why the DO was so stingy: give someone unlimited access and they could grow beyond control. While this "flaw" in the TP seems a little too convenient, it did have some foreshadowing.

[batcaver]

Soooooo.....

 

Does anyone actually understand what happened with Rand at the end there?  I just read 6 pages of thread here thinking I'd get a good explanation and I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen one since I saw a couple people asking.  I don't really get the body swap or the pipe thing....

 

I mean, I knew via discussion of the prophecies that it was coming, and I remember all the weirdo connection stuff with Moridin ever since they touched balefire beams, but I still don't understandy why they swapped bodies or how.  Or how Rand lit the pipe.  What am I missing here?

[goldenking]

Yeh, please answer that question, the only 2 real big things that werent clear for me were the things your talking about batcaver!

The body swap, how did it occur?

And the litting of the pipe..?

 

Thankz!

[John Everyman]

Soooooo.....

 

Does anyone actually understand what happened with Rand at the end there?  I just read 6 pages of thread here thinking I'd get a good explanation and I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen one since I saw a couple people asking.  I don't really get the body swap or the pipe thing....

 

I mean, I knew via discussion of the prophecies that it was coming, and I remember all the weirdo connection stuff with Moridin ever since they touched balefire beams, but I still don't understandy why they swapped bodies or how.  Or how Rand lit the pipe.  What am I missing here?

 

I took the pipe thing as indication that Rand can now change the world around him, much as Perrin can with the World of Dreams.  He's practically a full blown messiah now, almost an avatar of the Creator. 

 

As for the body switch, I don't know.  I imagine Nakomi might have something to do with it, and/or the Creator.  The only thing that's confusing about that explanation, though, is how in the world Alivia would know to get him a horse and money.  Perhaps Min asked her?

[potters_pimp]

My understanding of the whole Rand/Moridin body switch came in part from the understanding that a lot of this battle was to do with free will. I got the vibe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Moridin seeked oblivion because he was tired of existing. He wanted to end it entirely. Rand wanted to live, and when that choice arrived, Moridin was allowed to die and Rand allowed to seek life in a new body. I assumed that Aiel outside Shayol Ghul was Nakomi, and I'm assuming something happened there as well--I'm not too sure myself--but that's what I've put the body swap down to. He has touched the pattern, and he had the choice to go on or die, and he chose to go on. His body was spent so he was given another.

I don't know, I might just be rambling.

[Duskfire]

Rand and Moridin were linked when their balefire streams touched in Shadar Logoth. At the time, I had assumed it was because it was balefire, but now I am thinking it was because of the OP and the TP touching. In any case, a connection was created and Rand mentioned a couple of times of being able to almost physically feel the barrier between them and just a little pushing would break it. At the end, when the OP and the TP were used together again, the link intensified and the barriers between the two of them completely broke. They were then able to bodyswap.

 

I am not sure if Moridin had a say in what happened, but it would be kind of cool if he did, and allowed himself to just die. That, or Rand forced him out through sheer willpower. In any case, it would have been similar to what I imagine the DO does when he finds a new body for the Forsaken. Establishes a connection, forces the hosts soul out, places the Chosen one in.

 

Thats simplistic terms anyhow. I am sure there is alot more to it then that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The lighting of the Pipe was intentionally left ambiguous. RJ talked about a "hook" he left in the final scene, something which was to leave the reader wondering. 

 

You will not get an answer from anyone bar Brandon or Team Jordan. It is not something that anyone missed in the books, and there is no definitive answer to the question. 

 

It is something he intentionally left people wondering about. 

[Danny7185]

 

 

I'm having trouble grasping a lot of the end.

 

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell Nynaeve, Tam, Mat, or Perrin and abandons his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Now, into what happened with the dark one itself.  I agree with the 'world without evil' being a horrible place.  Rand explains this by telling the Dark One that he never wins, because only the fight for something you believe in can bring out the best in people.  That implies that the best of everybody can't exist without the DO.  There would be nothing to fight for, nothing to challenge peace and make people treasure it.  So that makes sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense is Rand's line about the Dark One never having been the issue, Alivia's role, the pipe and the finalization of the body swap.  Here are two theories from me, both somewhat crazy, I'll admit:

 

1.  Androl and Pevara gave us more insight than we'd think.  While they were linked, they entered each others' consciousness.  They became ONE PERSON.  Pevara's POV says she was able to pull back into her own body afterwards.  Is that what Rand and Moridin did, except Rand intentionally pulled back into Moridin's body instead?

 

2.  The DO exists outside the pattern and is a constant force for evil, but isn't necessarily bad.  He's like gravity, he's just contantly present.  The true source of upsetting balance is the Dragon Reborn himself.  LTT inspried many of the Forsaken.  He rejected Mieren, he was a source of fixation for Elan, Demandred seems to be completely unhinged by being 'nearly LTT'.  Sammael and Bel'al are both known to have been jealous of his power.  LTT's Aes Sedai were the ones who drilled into the Bore, craving more power.

 

We see a repeat of this in Rand.  Everywhere he goes, he breaks ties, causes war, incites jealousy, brings out both the best AND worst of the people around him.  In TGS he goes mad and nearly kills everybody atop Dragonmount, proving he could be either the destroyer or the savior.

 

This could explain why Rand wants the world to go on without the Dragon.  He WANTS the dragon to be dead in everybody's mind, because so long as he exists, the threat could come again.  The Dragon is the problem and always has been.

 

---------------------

 

Thoughts?  I know it sort of flies in the face of the good vs evil mantra this series seems to hold, but it did occur to me after putting the book down.

I like you theroies, I think maybe the dragon is reborn to set the pattern right when its needed.  My theory was if everyone htinks Rand is dead he can have some piece and quiet finally.  If they knew he was alive he wouldn't be able to go anywhere without people flocking around him etc....  As the worlds savior people would be wanting him to do all sort of things and I think you are right about where ever he goes trouble might follow.  The dragon would still be a target for any DF left out there and so would his ladies.  Now everyone can live is relative safety.   I think he just wants a nice peaceul quiet life.  I don't understand his casual view on wonder if any of the women will follow him.  Considering one is caring his children you would think he would have some concern.

While it seems as if Rand IS looking forward to a little R&R his main motivation is probably The Dragon's Peace. It is clearly stated in aMoL that the one thing he wanted more than anything else was for the people of Randland to honor his sacrifice by not engaging in petty border disputes, political machinations at the expense of others for personal gain or war. If he was going to save the world, then dammnit, everyone else could at least act like decent human beings even if he had to force it upon them. And he did just that. The Monarchs of Randland promised to eschew all these actions, formally and legally, upon pain of Aiel retribution when they signed the Dragon's Peace. His bargaining chip was that he would sacrifice his life to save them all. Obviously Rand did not die and if that were to be known to the signatories how long would it be before one of them decided that if Rand didn't keep up his side of the bargain, why should they? Which is more important? Rand and his buddies hanging out? Or the Pax Dragonis, or whatever, that seems relatively likely to emerge after the smoke clears from the world?

 

I'm glad you posted this buddhatanker. Maybe it's because I stayed up all night to finish the book, but this glaringly obvious theory never crossed my mind.

 

I was ticked that Rand seemed so care free when he was riding away at the end. He has children on the way from most likely two of his three lovers, a grieving father, and a ton of great friends, and he is just gonna wander around wherever his feet takes him like the carousing ideal that Mat liked to play up? What the heck? It wasn't until you reminded me of the Dragon's Peace and the implications of what it would mean if he wasn't dead, even if he was in a different body, that made me calm down a little. I wish he had been a little more solemn about it though instead of coming off as jovial.

 

I'd like to imagine down the road more of a Dark Knights Rises ending. Spoiler if by some chance you haven't seen that movie:

 

He lets the people he really cares for like Nyneave, Lan, Tam, Moiraine, Thom, Mat, Perrin know he is alive and well but doesn't actively engage in their lives. The shipper in me likes to think that he could somehow make it work with Elayne, Min, and Aviendha though.

[Sotir Tilev]

The pipe thing may as well be Cadsuane gives him hint that she knows and he can count on her if he needs help. It's would be nice wink between Cadsuane and the man she had assisted in saving the world. It's a nice jesture also - Rand saved the world, but Cadsuane is on his side even after he had done his part in the Pattern, showing that Cadsuane realy cares, not like the calculating Aes Sedai image Rand perceived from her in few moments of the book. 

 

But I am more for the theory that Rand can really bend the Pattern and make as he wish. But as long as he is keeping it cool. I mean I don't think he can imagine someone being good, and the evil person in front of him becomes good just because Rand imagined. Or a war stops just because Rand imagined. It shouldn't work that way, because Rand then would take the free will from the people, and he doesn't want that. I think it's more like he can channel without physical weaving of one power. More like because of his role in the Pattern and the things he had done in his battle with the Dark One, his understanding of how the Power works and the powers possibilities and limits, now he can use the One Power, but instead to channel it himself, he is using the Patters to do it for him.

 

The thing I am wondering... during his fight with the Dark One, after Egwene died, was it really Egwene who talked to Rand about letting the people being heroes, or he imagined it. I think that helped Rand to get to his dicision, most of all, because how can one be a hero, if there is no cause to fight for. This like the cherry on the top of the cake, after he realized the reality without Dark One to be as bad as if the evil had won, then he is reminded by Egwene that a person should be able to choose his path, and that Dark One is helpless againts people, who are ready to give it all, in order to defeat him. So... is this Egwene, or Rand's perception of Egwene's potential words in this moment? I think it's the first. I am not fan of Egwene to be honest, but maybe she had major role in the winning Last Battle just because she spoke to Rand what he needed to be reminded for.

 

 

[pmtang]

When did Rand and Morridin swap and how was it done?  It would appear that it was done while Rand was drawing Morridin's power through Callandor but that would mean that it was Morridin (in Rand's body) who walked out of the cave carrying Rand (in Morridin's body).  That doesn't quite seem right...........

 

Also back in the tents, didn't Nynaeve say that "Morridin" wasn't going to make it?  But I guess it did later say that Morridin's body wasn't checked...........

[Cheetaiean]

The Ending: I found it sad how Tam said goodbye to his son and thought him dead, as well as Nynaeve.

 

However, about Min, Elayne, and Aviendha: He wasn't abandoning them. While he walked away in Moridin's body, they were looking at him. They still have his bond, so they can find him wherever.

 

Overall I'm satisfied with the ending, and the effort Brandon Sanderson made to complete Robert Jordan's great series.

 

Also, about the ending being written by Robert Jordan... by ending does Brandon Sanderson mean the last chapter, last few paragraphs, or what?

[MarkDiLillo]

The Ending: I found it sad how Tam said goodbye to his son and thought him dead, as well as Nynaeve.

 

However, about Min, Elayne, and Aviendha: He wasn't abandoning them. While he walked away in Moridin's body, they were looking at him. They still have his bond, so they can find him wherever.

 

Overall I'm satisfied with the ending, and the effort Brandon Sanderson made to complete Robert Jordan's great series.

 

Also, about the ending being written by Robert Jordan... by ending does Brandon Sanderson mean the last chapter, last few paragraphs, or what?

 

RJ wrote the entire epilogue except for the short Cadsuane PoV.  Brandon wrote everything else mostly.