Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[dreadlord]

Boats feature alot in Anubis - Egyptian Patron of Embalming and the Dead - iconography / artifacts.   That would fit with your metaphorical boat.

 

I'm okay with a lot of the ambiguity in the prophecies, but the lack of a boat when Rand dies/body switches? Is there something like a boat in that scene? I missed it altogether, if so. Maybe it's a metaphorical boat?

[Kivam]

 

 

 

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

he was an empty husk in the bore when Rand walked in he noticed the body 

 

Which was completely ludicrous.  Honestly, much as I liked the book as a whole, the ending felt off and there were such obvious things that nobody was doing (like Androl just opening a gateway in Taim's chest or, once Androl had demonstrated the use of gateways to move lava, further use of that on the battlefield).  Characters seemed off, and it just left me cold.

 

Truthfully, the best thing this book could have done is let Talmanes die right at the beginning.  Would have set a nice heroism/sacrifice/real danger tone for the whole book.  Instead, we got a last second, just in the nick of time rescue that became the pattern for the rest of the story.

It was relatively clear that Shaidar Haran was some sort of avatar for the Dark One for quite some time.  I'm satisfied with his "appearance" in this book given that fact.

 

Except: 1) He had a distinct personality and motivations (which makes ending him offscreen, as a useless husk, a real copout) and 2) the idea that the DO needed to incubate in a Fade to become a dark pool outside the Bore . . . it's just silly, to me.  There's no real basis/explanation for it - it's just declaimed into the series by fiat

 

Androl's use of gateways seems to be unique to him, and we did see him, at least, using them offensively on the battlefield.

 

I'm okay with Talmanes living if only because he established himself as such a badass in the Prologue that I didn't want him to die!  I like to think that he is one of the "bodyguards" for Olver as he wanders off to dispose of the Horn of Valere, and that the two of them will get into plenty of adventures together. :)

 

Yes, but once Androl shows it off, it should be a major weapon in the arsenal. 

[MrBlack]

 

 

 

 

Did I miss something? Maybe I read too fast, but it seems every bad guy met his or her demise except Shaidar Haran, who was conspicuously absent.

he was an empty husk in the bore when Rand walked in he noticed the body 

 

Which was completely ludicrous.  Honestly, much as I liked the book as a whole, the ending felt off and there were such obvious things that nobody was doing (like Androl just opening a gateway in Taim's chest or, once Androl had demonstrated the use of gateways to move lava, further use of that on the battlefield).  Characters seemed off, and it just left me cold.

 

Truthfully, the best thing this book could have done is let Talmanes die right at the beginning.  Would have set a nice heroism/sacrifice/real danger tone for the whole book.  Instead, we got a last second, just in the nick of time rescue that became the pattern for the rest of the story.

It was relatively clear that Shaidar Haran was some sort of avatar for the Dark One for quite some time.  I'm satisfied with his "appearance" in this book given that fact.

 

Except: 1) He had a distinct personality and motivations (which makes ending him offscreen, as a useless husk, a real copout) and 2) the idea that the DO needed to incubate in a Fade to become a dark pool outside the Bore . . . it's just silly, to me.  There's no real basis/explanation for it - it's just declaimed into the series by fiat

 

>Androl's use of gateways seems to be unique to him, and we did see him, at least, using them offensively on the battlefield.

 

I'm okay with Talmanes living if only because he established himself as such a badass in the Prologue that I didn't want him to die!  I like to think that he is one of the "bodyguards" for Olver as he wanders off to dispose of the Horn of Valere, and that the two of them will get into plenty of adventures together. :)

 

Yes, but once Androl shows it off, it should be a major weapon in the arsenal. 

 

I seem to recall Shaidar Haran's displeasure at weakening after being away from Shayol Ghul for an extended period.  We already knew he had some sort of direct tie to the Dark One, and having him be an avatar or incubator for his physical presence in the Pattern seems like a logical extension of what we had seen from the character. 

 

Again, Androl's talent with gateways seemed unique.  It's not clear whether anyone else would be able to use gateways in the way that he is able, at least without some practice or training first.

[Aver]

The Towers of Midnight didn't get resolved either which is surprising since that was what the previous book was named after.

 

 

[Jhirrad]

 

Androl's use of gateways seems to be unique to him, and we did see him, at least, using them offensively on the battlefield.

 

I'm okay with Talmanes living if only because he established himself as such a badass in the Prologue that I didn't want him to die!  I like to think that he is one of the "bodyguards" for Olver as he wanders off to dispose of the Horn of Valere, and that the two of them will get into plenty of adventures together. :)

 

Yes, but once Androl shows it off, it should be a major weapon in the arsenal. 

 

I'm not sure that it could have been with anyone for else. For anyone else, the amount of the OP it takes to make a gateway is prohibitive. You can generally do a LOT more damage with other things for the same ultimate OP cost than from a gateway. Androl is special, unique, in that his ability to make gateways is, for whatever reason, a Talent, not relative to his strength in the OP. Anyone else tries that, they get a couple out at most. And they were used quite effectively, by Talmanes with the Dragons.

[MrBlack]

The Towers of Midnight didn't get resolved either which is surprising since that was what the previous book was named after.

Well, we already knew we weren't going to see more of Seanchan than we already had, so I wasn't expecting to see the actual Towers of Midnight.  Per one of Egwene's early dreams, I think the "Towers" were a metaphor for the Forsaken.

[egwene1225]

Anyone else disappointed we didn't get to read Thom's ballad?  I was SURE that was going to be the verse / prophecy quoted at the end.  I hope its in the encyclopedia next year...

[Joanna63]

It had everything to do with heartbeats. It plainly says so in aMoL.

 

Anyone know how the seals were stolen?

 

I wanted to know this too, did I miss something? When did this occur? Suddenly they had the seals! I read back through, couldnt find the event....

[Vels]

Possibly the seal Taim gave to Rand had a tracer weave on it. He waited sufficient time for Rand to gather others and hide them all together then followed his trace to steal them all.

[Joanna63]

 

I really agree with Mark D's post early on about how everything at the end was so tidy and quick.  Very disappointing.  Hundreds of pages of build up for each situation, a paragraph or two of solution.  Weak.

 

My two main complains once done, and they have already been mentioned.

- Three in a boat?

- The Tinkers and their song

 

I was really looking forward to both as they were stressed multiple times.  Nothing :(

 

The three in a boat, well, some are arguing that that kind of happened, as the girls stand over Rand's funeral pyre. I dunno if I buy it, but there it is.

 

For the song, that happened. Rand, singing very softly, while speaking with Tuon. Rand, creating the Great Trees at the Field of Merrilor. That was Rand Singing. That's the Tinker Song. They didn't get it themselves, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides, the base question of what the song is has been answered since The Shadow Rising when Rand went through those ter'angreal. 

 

 I agree, but I think this should have been tied together and stressed more. The song was actually integral to the story, the Tinkers and Aiel were the same people. The song grew the plants and kept the world at peace. Although the Aiel's maintaining the (future) Dragon's Peace also touched on this, therefore returning to their pre breaking status as honoured peace keepers, as well as the life the Dragon bought to the Land once he had embraced death, I would have liked to have seen this all come together in a glorious manner. I would have loved to have seen the Tinker's find their song and somehow have reconciliation with the Aiel. It was sad that the only bit a that mentioned them seemed to show the matriarch muttering about Aram's loss etc., it sounded bitter.

[Joanna63]

Possibly the seal Taim gave to Rand had a tracer weave on it. He waited sufficient time for Rand to gather others and hide them all together then followed his trace to steal them all.

 

LOL why not?! haha. So I didnt miss it, this wasnt explained? I did read the book quickly, thought I must have missed the event. That's pretty disappointing, why have the plot of them being stolen and not explain how they were retaken?

[Joanna63]

Anyone else disappointed we didn't get to read Thom's ballad?  I was SURE that was going to be the verse / prophecy quoted at the end.  I hope its in the encyclopedia next year...

 

Well at least we got to read Lorial's book :)

[Sabio]

did we know who was the fake sammeal?

 

was it demandred or moridin?

I am assuuming it was Moghedien, in her POV she commented on how she always made certain she could imitate the other chosen.

[Viperswhip]

If it was Moghy then we can assume the attack was aimed at Nynaeve more than Rand heh

[mike hunt's here]

Something i didnt quite understand:

 

1. Was it just me, or did Demandred seem a wee bit looney?  From LoC i took him as a serious, business like dude that wore lace and black suits.  The Shara wild guy seemed kinda crazy with big eyes.

 

2.  Demandred asks himself who the heck is this swordsman, and he thinks "Asmodean?"  Doesnt he know big A got offed?  And when Rand was sparring in the waste with Lan - I swear Asmodean claimed not to know the sword. 

 

3.  How did Eqwene know Moridin?

[Viperswhip]

As to 2, it is reasonable for Demandred to wonder how anyone even got to him, so thinking it's Asmo is reasonable, though why he would think Asmo knew the sword, I don't know.

 

They know that the DO and Moridin told him Asmo was dead (it was in his trip to SG), but maybe he didn't believe it, more likely BS forgot that the DO had told Demandred that Adso was dead.

[Matthew79]

did we know who was the fake sammeal?

 

was it demandred or moridin?

I thought, after Mog's POV where she imitated Demanded, that her comments were a hint that it was her.

[Matthew79]

It had everything to do with heartbeats. It plainly says so in aMoL.

 

Anyone know how the seals were stolen?

Its Moridins opinion on the matter though. Not saying it's not true, but the source as is often the case is unreliable.

Hey there has to some reasons for us to buy the Encyclopedia right?

[BFG]

@MarkD

Depends what closure you're talking about. If the impossible pipe thing and what Rand will do afterwards bothers you then yes you're right. But the rest is not RJ unless we have something in the notes saying "dont reveal the contents of Verins letters or Moiraine's wishes".

 

Don't know about the letters, but I'm pretty sure their's an interview that states/suggests that we weren't going to get all the answers/wishes from the various trips to see the Finns. It certainly didn't surprise me that we didn't, although I'm not familiar enough with the interview database to go get a quote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Androl's use of gateways seems to be unique to him, and we did see him, at least, using them offensively on the battlefield.

 

I'm okay with Talmanes living if only because he established himself as such a badass in the Prologue that I didn't want him to die! I like to think that he is one of the "bodyguards" for Olver as he wanders off to dispose of the Horn of Valere, and that the two of them will get into plenty of adventures together. :)

Yes, but once Androl shows it off, it should be a major weapon in the arsenal.

I'm not sure that it could have been with anyone for else. For anyone else, the amount of the OP it takes to make a gateway is prohibitive. You can generally do a LOT more damage with other things for the same ultimate OP cost than from a gateway. Androl is special, unique, in that his ability to make gateways is, for whatever reason, a Talent, not relative to his strength in the OP. Anyone else tries that, they get a couple out at most. And they were used quite effectively, by Talmanes with the Dragons.

This.

 

Also any other Channeler (unless another has a Talent) needs to stay put for at least an hour before they can open a Gateway. Androl is also (so far) unique because he needs a lot less time to do it. Standing still in a battle is going to be hard.

 

 

 

 

It had everything to do with heartbeats. It plainly says so in aMoL.

 

Anyone know how the seals were stolen?

I wanted to know this too, did I miss something? When did this occur? Suddenly they had the seals! I read back through, couldnt find the event....

Not sure when it actually happened, but we know the Dark Forces are looking for them as of the attack on (I think) Dobraine and/or Bashere and/or Darlin(sp?). Can't remember which book, but one of their wives (Dobraines?) is attacked and a note found on them saying that something was being removed on Dobraines orders. I'm sure there was a similar incident for one of the other 2. I'm sure I've read theories that suggested they were looking for the seals, and even one which suggested a Dark One ploy could be to steal the seals and thus choose his own moment of release.

[Amandera]

About how the Seals were stolen:

TOR Edition, Pg267

He did not fear revealing these things. He had touch the True Power, and so the Dark One knew his heart. There were no surprises here, at least nothing that should have been a surprise.

 

This is the scene Rand opens himself to Mierin in a dreamshard. Brandon said there would be consequences for Rand's TP usage. This is it. It's how the DO knew where the Seals were. He probably sent Taim to retrieve them. Nothing exciting.

[jwillis7]

About how the Seals were stolen:

TOR Edition, Pg267

He did not fear revealing these things. He had touch the True Power, and so the Dark One knew his heart. There were no surprises here, at least nothing that should have been a surprise.

 

This is the scene Rand opens himself to Mierin in a dreamshard. Brandon said there would be consequences for Rand's TP usage. This is it. It's how the DO knew where the Seals were. He probably sent Taim to retrieve them. Nothing exciting.

No the question is how did Logain get them back.  If Taim had them on the battle field, who does Logain have them before the Egwene and Taim fight

[skalors3]

 

 

About how the Seals were stolen:

TOR Edition, Pg267

 

He did not fear revealing these things. He had touch the True Power, and so the Dark One knew his heart. There were no surprises here, at least nothing that should have been a surprise.

This is the scene Rand opens himself to Mierin in a dreamshard. Brandon said there would be consequences for Rand's TP usage. This is it. It's how the DO knew where the Seals were. He probably sent Taim to retrieve them. Nothing exciting.

No the question is how did Logain get them back. If Taim had them on the battle field, who does Logain have them before the Egwene and Taim fight

Logain gets them from Leliwen who was given them by Egwene.

[jwillis7]

 

 

 

About how the Seals were stolen:

TOR Edition, Pg267

 

He did not fear revealing these things. He had touch the True Power, and so the Dark One knew his heart. There were no surprises here, at least nothing that should have been a surprise.

This is the scene Rand opens himself to Mierin in a dreamshard. Brandon said there would be consequences for Rand's TP usage. This is it. It's how the DO knew where the Seals were. He probably sent Taim to retrieve them. Nothing exciting.

No the question is how did Logain get them back. If Taim had them on the battle field, who does Logain have them before the Egwene and Taim fight

Logain gets them from Leliwen who was given them by Egwene.

wait, i musst have missed this.  When did Egwene get the real ones back.  last i remember the ones she had were fake.

[cannon]

No, Logain gets the seals from Androl, who pick-pocketed Taim.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Actually, Androl steals them from Taim, then passes them on to Logain.