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Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

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Honestly, I loved the book. Things that I would have liked more time spent on:

  • Epilogue. Yes, I know some of you hate the anti-climactic ending of Return of the King, but seeing as I spent nearly 20 years of my life wrapped up in this wonderful story, I'd have loved more closure. Not another hundred pages, maybe not even fifty. Just a little more. Tell me about Lan, Nynaeve, Galad, Thom and Moraine.
  • Speaking of Moraine, I had hoped to see more action involving her. After her helping Rand with the Accords of Merrilor , she doesn't really do much else.
  • Verin and Alanna. The letters, the secrets, etc.
  • Rand's harem: How did they know? When did they scheme this all out? How did the whole swap occur. Rand knew enough to have Alivia help him out. When oh when did the ladies get in on the plan?

 

 

 

 

In a way, I agree with this. I would've loved to hear more about them. But ... I think what you write points to the very reason it wasn't included. "Tell me about Lan, Nynaeve, Galad, Thom and Moiraine" ... Why Galad? I assume because you like him, but he's not one of the most major characters. And you've excluded Elayne and Aviendha, who are very major characters, as well as multitude of characters with the same level of importance and screen-time as Galad. Even if they'd done only the original first-book characters, there would have been a lot of things not getting covered at all. And I think doing that in a satisfying way would've taken up a lot of space. It would have been very nice ... but I can understand why it wasn't done.

 

And it feels like cramming everything together in a few pages would've make an abysmal epilogue like the one in Harry Potter.

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God thats so irritating.  The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why?  Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book. 

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories.  The explanations are there, in the books.  Just use your head a bit.

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And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

She was designed and enacted to be theory fodder. Nothing more.

 

Brandon was actually asked very specifically about Nakomi last night at the signing in Chicago. His response was basically, "She came from very deep in RJ's notes, was a character that had to be there, but not someone that I think RJ would want me to go into a lot of detail about." He did say there's a chance that she'll be fleshed out/explained more in the upcoming encyclopedia, but made no promises on that matter.

You have a quote for that Jhirr? Would love to read what was actually said.

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God thats so irritating.  The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why?  Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book. 

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories.  The explanations are there, in the books.  Just use your head a bit.

 

What's annoying is when someone says the explanations are in the book when they clearly are not.

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God thats so irritating.  The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why?  Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book. 

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories.  The explanations are there, in the books.  Just use your head a bit.

 

The problem becomes why would he want that? What is the advantage of not giving us answers? Before, if Sanderson had told me what would happen at the Last Battle, maybe I wouldn't have patronized him and Team Jordan and bought the book, but now, what does it matter? I can understand if he said that it would be revealed in the encyclopedia, so wait and get that, but if there won't ever be an answer, why? Especially one that does so little, all she did was shore up Aviendha's doubts. While that is nothing to get 'tempesty' about or even sniff at, there are many more characters that do much more for the series. Holding out there just seems to be one last RAFO, only we have no more books, and the encyclopedia might not have the information.

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And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

She was designed and enacted to be theory fodder. Nothing more.

 

Brandon was actually asked very specifically about Nakomi last night at the signing in Chicago. His response was basically, "She came from very deep in RJ's notes, was a character that had to be there, but not someone that I think RJ would want me to go into a lot of detail about." He did say there's a chance that she'll be fleshed out/explained more in the upcoming encyclopedia, but made no promises on that matter.

You have a quote for that Jhirr? Would love to read what was actually said.

 

I don't have a quote other than what I posted. I was one of the Memory Keepers for the event last night. The question first came up in the Q&A, poorly worded, which Brandon was then able to duck. The question was: Who was the Aiel woman that Aviendha met on the way to Rhuidean? Brandon simply said, Nakomi, next question. The same person stayed pretty late, and was in the final group getting personalizations done for the books. He asked again, what's the deal with Nakomi. Brandon said there's a hint about her in AMOL. Also, he said that hint exists somewhere between the beginning of chapter 37 (The Last Battle) and the end of the book. However, the character came from deep in Jordan's notes, and it wasn't something that he felt like he could just reveal. The guy then asked if Nakomi would be explained in the upcoming encyclopedia, and Brandon answered with an "I don't know, but it's possible, I can't make any promises." Unfortunately we weren't allowed to do any sort of recording, so that's the best I can give you. But that's what he said, sometime around 11 PM CST last night. 

Edited by Jhirrad

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And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

She was designed and enacted to be theory fodder. Nothing more.

 

Brandon was actually asked very specifically about Nakomi last night at the signing in Chicago. His response was basically, "She came from very deep in RJ's notes, was a character that had to be there, but not someone that I think RJ would want me to go into a lot of detail about." He did say there's a chance that she'll be fleshed out/explained more in the upcoming encyclopedia, but made no promises on that matter.

You have a quote for that Jhirr? Would love to read what was actually said.
 

I don't have a quote other than what I posted. I was one of the Memory Keepers for the event last night. The question first came up in the Q&A, poorly worded, which Brandon was then able to duck. The question was: Who was the Aiel woman that Aviendha met on the way to Rhuidean? Brandon simply said, Nakomi, next question. The same person stayed pretty late, and was in the final group getting personalizations done for the books. He asked again, what's the deal with Nakomi. Brandon said there's a hint about her in AMOL. However, the character came from deep in Jordan's notes, and it wasn't something that he felt like he could just reveal. The guy then asked if Nakomi would be explained in the upcoming encyclopedia, and Brandon answered with an "I don't know, but it's possible, I can't make any promises." Unfortunately we weren't allowed to do any sort of recording, so that's the best I can give you. But that's what he said, sometime around 11 PM CST last night. 

Thanks mate, I appreciate it!

 

Not sure how that fits with my long held belief on Nakomi=Verin. I've always found the mythology of the "Nakomi" character fascinating in relation to her meeting Avi.

 

Dom

Much more specific: Nakomi is the Moon Goddess who taught the shamans about the Dream and how to enter it, and gave men Dreamcatchers (a charm to protect sleeping people from nightmares).

Edited by Suttree

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The "three in a boat" foretelling never happened.

It was more of a metaphorical resolution that happened during the last scene. Not well executed but that was a tough one. Who knos if RJ would have made it more literal.

Since RJ wrote the scene as a final product, I would say that it was fulfilled as intended.

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God thats so irritating. The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why? Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book.

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories. The explanations are there, in the books. Just use your head a bit.

The problem becomes why would he want that? What is the advantage of not giving us answers? Before, if Sanderson had told me what would happen at the Last Battle, maybe I wouldn't have patronized him and Team Jordan and bought the book, but now, what does it matter? I can understand if he said that it would be revealed in the encyclopedia, so wait and get that, but if there won't ever be an answer, why? Especially one that does so little, all she did was shore up Aviendha's doubts. While that is nothing to get 'tempesty' about or even sniff at, there are many more characters that do much more for the series. Holding out there just seems to be one last RAFO, only we have no more books, and the encyclopedia might not have the information.

Most books don't have closure. Secondly, it is his license to leave so many unanswered questions. Lastly, maybe they were things that he never answers in his notes and they didn't want to just make the answers up.

 

In the end, they made the decision as is their right.

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Her being Verin would be consistent with everything we know. We know the creator cannot, or will not, directly interfere and she did exactly that when she met with Avi. We also know under certain circumstances it is very possible for one person to end up in the body of another (ie the Forsaken, and Rand at the very end). How she might have done so is a mystery, but it probably is possible.

 

I still find a distinct lack of any form of real follow up disconcerting.  I didn't want everything spelled out but just a "over the next few days, as the world began to recover from shock..."  type thing.  It would be enough to show the survivors, and how things start back up in the aftermath, without giving away everything that shall follow. But I think even in the end RJ left those details to outriggers that will never be written.

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Her being Verin would be consistent with everything we know. We know the creator cannot, or will not, directly interfere and she did exactly that when she met with Avi. We also know under certain circumstances it is very possible for one person to end up in the body of another (ie the Forsaken, and Rand at the very end). How she might have done so is a mystery, but it probably is possible.

 

 

 

 


God thats so irritating. The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why? Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book.

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories. The explanations are there, in the books. Just use your head a bit.

The problem becomes why would he want that? What is the advantage of not giving us answers? Before, if Sanderson had told me what would happen at the Last Battle, maybe I wouldn't have patronized him and Team Jordan and bought the book, but now, what does it matter? I can understand if he said that it would be revealed in the encyclopedia, so wait and get that, but if there won't ever be an answer, why? Especially one that does so little, all she did was shore up Aviendha's doubts. While that is nothing to get 'tempesty' about or even sniff at, there are many more characters that do much more for the series. Holding out there just seems to be one last RAFO, only we have no more books, and the encyclopedia might not have the information.

Most books don't have closure. Secondly, it is his license to leave so many unanswered questions. Lastly, maybe they were things that he never answers in his notes and they didn't want to just make the answers up.

In the end, they made the decision as is their right.

 

Most series do have closure, and most books don't have closure because the author either wants to write another, and closure would damage that, or they simply don't believe in ending the book.  Many of us disagree.

 

The trouble is that outriggers were planned, so (many of) the questions would have been answered, but there wasn't enough time and either they were not left in the notes and they didn't want to make it up, as you said, or they felt what was left didn't belong.

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One thing that I missed, though perhaps others saw it, was the resolution to the original Dark Prophecy lines about "Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes."  Coupling that with a mention of the Imperial family returning to the Towers of Midnight (in Seanchan, presumably not meant metaphorically) at a time of dire need to right that which was wrong, I was expecting to hear about someone going there (Tuon?) to do something or recover some Power artifact.

 

Note that the Dark Prophecy mentions it "before the Great Lord comes," implying that it should not mean a future event for possible outrigger novels.  The oblique reference to the prophecy in the glossary of ToM made me hopeful, but it seems that it was missed.  Unless it occurred off-screen?

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Also wondered about the "Shining Walls shall kneel..."  Others have said that was fulfilled, but I don't know. 

 

The Dark Prophecy also seemed to draw a link between Isam/Luc and Darkhounds, although that may be reading too much into the intent.  So many questions...

 

Unless Dark Prophecies are just Shadow propaganda, as others have suggested.  But I tend to agree that they should be equally valid as Light prophecies.

Edited by DottieGirl

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Her being Verin would be consistent with everything we know. We know the creator cannot, or will not, directly interfere and she did exactly that when she met with Avi. We also know under certain circumstances it is very possible for one person to end up in the body of another (ie the Forsaken, and Rand at the very end). How she might have done so is a mystery, but it probably is possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God thats so irritating. The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why? Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book.

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories. The explanations are there, in the books. Just use your head a bit.

The problem becomes why would he want that? What is the advantage of not giving us answers? Before, if Sanderson had told me what would happen at the Last Battle, maybe I wouldn't have patronized him and Team Jordan and bought the book, but now, what does it matter? I can understand if he said that it would be revealed in the encyclopedia, so wait and get that, but if there won't ever be an answer, why? Especially one that does so little, all she did was shore up Aviendha's doubts. While that is nothing to get 'tempesty' about or even sniff at, there are many more characters that do much more for the series. Holding out there just seems to be one last RAFO, only we have no more books, and the encyclopedia might not have the information.
Most books don't have closure. Secondly, it is his license to leave so many unanswered questions. Lastly, maybe they were things that he never answers in his notes and they didn't want to just make the answers up.

 

In the end, they made the decision as is their right.

Most series do have closure, and most books don't have closure because the author either wants to write another, and closure would damage that, or they simply don't believe in ending the book. Many of us disagree.

 

The trouble is that outriggers were planned, so (many of) the questions would have been answered, but there wasn't enough time and either they were not left in the notes and they didn't want to make it up, as you said, or they felt what was left didn't belong.

I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

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Most books don't have closure. Secondly, it is his license to leave so many unanswered questions. Lastly, maybe they were things that he never answers in his notes and they didn't want to just make the answers up. 

 

In the end, they made the decision as is their right.

 

True, but that does not mean that his choices were right, especially, as pointed out above, sequels were planned. I can assuredly say that series that survive the test of time and continue to make money are the series that do wrap things up nicely. See Dune, see LotR. They don't fail to answer puzzling, illogical, and important questions. I would like to see Wheel of Time continue. I would like to continue supporting Team Jordan with my money. But if they do not want to keep their fans by simply answering a question about a single character, I suppose they have made their choice.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

 

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me.  The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately?  Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

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Most books don't have closure. Secondly, it is his license to leave so many unanswered questions. Lastly, maybe they were things that he never answers in his notes and they didn't want to just make the answers up.

 

In the end, they made the decision as is their right.

True, but that does not mean that his choices were right, especially, as pointed out above, sequels were planned. I can assuredly say that series that survive the test of time and continue to make money are the series that do wrap things up nicely. See Dune, see LotR. They don't fail to answer puzzling, illogical, and important questions. I would like to see Wheel of Time continue. I would like to continue supporting Team Jordan with my money. But if they do not want to keep their fans by simply answering a question about a single character, I suppose they have made their choice.

I happen to agree with you. However, I am not them. If I were them, seeing how his community is, I wouldn't care one wit for fans. His wishes were met and the books are done and Harriet is old, beyond that, who cares.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me. The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately? Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

Of all of the things that need closure, I don't think those matter. That is a nature of an ending. RJ wrote those scenes. He gave you all he was going to give you.

 

Secondly, Rand couldn't do anything until the seals were broken.

 

Don't read the Dark Tower, you would kill yourself.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

 

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me.  The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately?  Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

 

I think the book answered the first two questions:  The DO can only EVER win if people give up, any other type of victory does not truly grant him dominion over the world.

 

The third is:  Even if the champion gives up not all of the forces of the Light do, and it ends in a brutal stalemate as the Light cannot complete the seal, but the Shadow can never quite win.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me. The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately? Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

Of all of the things that need closure, I don't think those matter. That is a nature of an ending. RJ wrote those scenes. He gave you all he was going to give you.

 

Secondly, Rand couldn't do anything until the seals were broken.

 

Don't read the Dark Tower, you would kill yourself.

 

RJ did not write the Rand vs DO scenes.  He wrote the Epilogue.  Those matter to me because they are literally the foundation of the series.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me. The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately? Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

Of all of the things that need closure, I don't think those matter. That is a nature of an ending. RJ wrote those scenes. He gave you all he was going to give you.

 

Secondly, Rand couldn't do anything until the seals were broken.

 

Don't read the Dark Tower, you would kill yourself.

 

The trouble is, though, this was not planned to be the ultimate, final, last book of The Wheel of Time, and outriggers almost certainly would have answered most of the questions about the lack of epilogue material, and RJ never changed from when he planned to write them (hence an ending that is, in some sense, still a sequel hook).

 

I agree with you that the main plot was closed, and most books leave subplots open.  Most books do not have about 30 different rather major subplots that are never concluded (or that many subplots to begin with!) and only give vague hints about.

 

An example of a series that concluded the main plot without wrapping a similar number of Subplots was Malazan.  The trouble is that a second series detailing those exact subplots, and giving everything at least partial conclusion, is being written.  I do not expect something like that, but a couple dozen pages of "...and in the wake of the battle..." showing who is alive, etc, would have been nice.  WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO LIVED!

Edited by Torn Shadow

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

 

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me.  The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately?  Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

 

I think the book answered the first two questions:  The DO can only EVER win if people give up, any other type of victory does not truly grant him dominion over the world.

 

The third is:  Even if the champion gives up not all of the forces of the Light do, and it ends in a brutal stalemate as the Light cannot complete the seal, but the Shadow can never quite win.

 

That makes sense, but if that's the case they should have been much more clear.  Looked to me like he was going to break free and he was going to kick some serious ass if Rand didnt stop him.  What's the point of the whole confrontation if all they had to do was ignore him and keep hope alive?  They could've just fought at Merrilor instead.

 

Annihilation was coming to the world that needed to be stopped.  Annihilation was not going to just stop happening because people didn't give up.  That's the problem.

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I think the main plots of a series have closure. Many subpoints in a series are usually left open (whether intentional or not) . That is what we have here. A main plotline concluded and subplots left open.

 

Honestly, the main plot doesn't quite have closure for me.  The main character does, but the entire story is wide open still unless I am missing something.

 

Why did the Shadow want to turn Rand to the dark?

 

Why not just kill him immediately?  Dark One looks like he would still break free.

 

How was it a "draw" in the past when the Champion of Light turned to the Shadow?

 

These are important questions that are the PRIMARY plot for the entire series and we don't have answers for them.

 

I think the book answered the first two questions:  The DO can only EVER win if people give up, any other type of victory does not truly grant him dominion over the world.

 

The third is:  Even if the champion gives up not all of the forces of the Light do, and it ends in a brutal stalemate as the Light cannot complete the seal, but the Shadow can never quite win.

 

That makes sense, but if that's the case they should have been much more clear.  Looked to me like he was going to break free and he was going to kick some serious ass if Rand didnt stop him.  What's the point of the whole confrontation if all they had to do was ignore him and keep hope alive?  They could've just fought at Merrilor instead.

 

Annihilation was coming to the world that needed to be stopped.  Annihilation was not going to just stop happening because people didn't give up.  That's the problem.

 

Because people will, eventually, give up if there is no one left to fight.  So long as a single person fights him he cannot get the victory he wants.  Yes, the DO was tearing the world apart... yet he could never have finished so long as a single person remained.  He couldn't destroy the pattern, Rand made that clear.  Balefire was always a bluff, just a way for him to get more of himself, and hence more despair, into the world.

 

If the DO kills everyone it probably counts as a tie.

Edited by Torn Shadow

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Of all of the things that need closure, I don't think those matter. That is a nature of an ending. RJ wrote those scenes. He gave you all he was going to give you.

 

Secondly, Rand couldn't do anything until the seals were broken.

 

Don't read the Dark Tower, you would kill yourself.

 

Comically, I think this is a good example. Mr. King answers questions about his books rather than say, "I'd rather not talk about this glaring plothole." And the last book did not end on a cliffhanger. Roland needed another artifact to open the top of the tower. In the 'new' beginning, he has the horn, another artifact that can open the top of the tower. The implication is that Roland has been redoing the entire series over and over until he gets it right. 

Here, however, we get no real good closure on these events. And further, many critics think that the Dark Tower fizzled out and did not perform as well as hoped, which, I think WoT will begin to do unless issues are addressed. 

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That's probably like the portal world Rand and Hurin went to. Just nothing. Maybe he can't make oblivion without the Creator's approval (Rand's his champion, or maybe the Pattern's champion), and he probably can't create life. All his visions of the world showed to Rand had people, but outside, everyone is dying at a pretty good clip.

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