Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[Amandera]

The voice is clearly not the DO, as Fionwe says. It's the Creator. I am not going to post quotes, but read page 431 and 453. It's clearly not the DO.

I don't think so. I can't find what's relevant in 453 but the part in 431 makes me believe it's the DO. I know the DO saying "I will not interfere" in tEoTW makes no sense but there we have it.

[Werthead]

How did Alanna get captured?

 

I assume Moridin or another Forsaken/Dreadlord simply identified, shielded and snatched her. Given how everyone had forgotten about her recently, it should have been relatively easy.

 

What was in Verin's letter to Galad? To Alanna?

 

This is much more problematic and something I think needs to be addressed to Brandon and Team Jordan.

 

And, what the hell is Nakomi?

 

I get the distinct impression that she's an avatar/representation of the Creator. Nothing else really makes sense. Requiring her to be, say, a Jenn Aiel who's somehow lived for 3,400 years (or roughly five times lifespan of an Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends) and perhaps been waiting for this moment, would require more clues and information than we have to work with.

 

THE VOICE also went unexplained, which was somewhat expected. Would've been nice to know though.

 

The Creator. It isn't the Dark One as the Dark One is totally ignorant of Rand's presence until he enters the cave some moments later. The only whole argument against this is the whole 'withering on a vine' argument that Lews Therin and Rand make earlier on (in KoD?) where they suggest that the Creator doesn't give a toss, but I think it's more likely that they were totally wrong (also, if the Creator doesn't care why arrange things to have the Dragon in the first place?).

 

RJ never implies it's the Creator. The Creator does not interfere. Rand steps into Shayol Ghul, hears the VOICE, and recognizes it from TEOTW. It's the Dark One.

 

Actually, he hears the VOICE before crossing the threshold of Shayol Ghul. The VOICE being the Dark One makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It being Ishamael messing around with Rand makes more sense, but whilst that was possible in EotW it's not possible here in AMoL. If it was (due to the balefire bond?), there would have been more evidence for it.

 

I think and hope that last sentence was by RJ. Why would tuon and Mat have a romantic ending? Rj intended to write about their adventures, so it wouldn't make sense for tat.

 

This. Mat has a bit of an odd ending, but his storyline was the one that we know Jordan was going to continue in-depth, so that makes sense (and as I said in the other thread, a possible weakness of AMoL is that we're getting a book that was planned to have a sequel in the outrigger books, but now won't be getting it).

 

It's also possible that the outrigger may have started in the Westlands before crossing to Seanchan, and we'd have gotten scenes between Mat and Perrin, or references to the fates of other characters.

 

I can't find what's relevant in 453

 

"The Dark One only now sensed his arrival, and was surprised by it. The dagger had done its job."

 

Obviously the Dark One would have sensed the Dragon Reborn's arrival if it had just spoken to him two minutes earlier ;)

[Amandera]

Okay, I just changed my mind about THE VOICE again and now I agree again that it is indeed the Creator.

[fyodor]

 

The voice is clearly not the DO, as Fionwe says. It's the Creator. I am not going to post quotes, but read page 431 and 453. It's clearly not the DO.

I don't think so. I can't find what's relevant in 453 but the part in 431 makes me believe it's the DO. I know the DO saying "I will not interfere" in tEoTW makes no sense but there we have it.

 

The text says that the Dark One "only now sensed his [Rand's] arrival"  not "the Dark One sensed Rand's arrival a little while ago and inexplicably advised him that it was the right time to go to Shayol Ghul which inexplicably cured Rand's doubts about whether he was making the right decision causing Rand to inexplicably thank the Dark One for his advice and reminding Rand of an earlier episode where the Dark One had assisted Rand in his fight with Ishamel even though the Dark One couldn't talk to anyone outside of Shayol Ghul at the time"

[adarkartist]

Would it be couldn't it be possible that Nakomi was in a vacuole?(sp). Could have been in one I think since they are suppose to mess with time. So she could be jenn/AS from AoL. Or am I off

[mockeryjones]

the things i really wanted to be in there but were not

 

1. loial addressing the stump and having his shining moment as he convinces the ogier to unite with humankind. 

2. afterglow, there was no bloody afterglow.

[neverspeakawordagain]

the things i really wanted to be in there but were not

 

1. loial addressing the stump and having his shining moment as he convinces the ogier to unite with humankind. 

2. afterglow, there was no bloody afterglow.

 

I think that, between the way-forward ter'angreal; Min's vision of Logain's glory which no man had seen before (which hadn't happened yet at the end of the book, but which you could see the start of), Rand's vision in his battle with the Dark One, and all of the other prophecies, we have more than enough information to piece together what happens afterwards. 

 

I never read Tolkien, but watching the last Lord of the Rings movie, the one thing that I absolutely could not stand is that the movie just would not end. It should have ended with the ring being destroyed. Then there was the seen with everybody bowing to the hobbits, and that was nice, but absolutely everything after that was superfluous bordering on obnoxious. It completely ruined the movie. I'm glad they didn't throw in a bunch of awfulness here like that.

[Cherubin]

Sorry I disagree. Logains moment of awesome happened when he rescued all the women and children refuges. People revered him for it. He did not like to do it, wasn't a 'real' hero because he only killed Trollocs - but for the people whose children got eaten he was the REAL hero.

 

What I really missed was any action by Moriane. She was giving a speech and watched Rand - Nynaeve atleast healed... We waited for so long for her to re-appear.. Thom had this fantastic moment of awesome, Moraine did not.

[Sarlic]

 

 

And, what the hell is Nakomi?

I get the distinct impression that she's an avatar/representation of the Creator. Nothing else really makes sense. Requiring her to be, say, a Jenn Aiel who's somehow lived for 3,400 years (or roughly five times lifespan of an Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends) and perhaps been waiting for this moment, would require more clues and information than we have to work with.

 

Damnit Wert I just posted a theory on this in the post aMoL thread. Thought I was the first!

 

To lend further credibility to this theory, I also think it was Nakomi that met Rand as he carried Moridin out of the pit of doom, and she (the creator) took care of the body swap.

[MarkDiLillo]

So...the voice was the creator AND Nakomi was the creator?

 

Doesnt make sense....

[Sarlic]

It's the Creator - I'm sure he could figure out a way to be 2 places at once. That being said, the voice spoke once, several hundred pages prior. These events were not happening simultaneously. What's to stop the Creator from watching from afar, speaking to Rand as he enters SG and then taking physical form at the end of the battle to appear before him?

[MarkDiLillo]

I'm not questioning the actual ability of the creator to do both things...I'm questioning how that fits into common sense in am author-to-reader sense.  It doesn't work for me.  They each come across individually as the creator, but I really dont see how they could both be the creator.

[kivo]

So no "three in a boat", unless one of post-Rand's adventure is going sailing on the River Erinin with his dames.

[Khazul]

   I dont know how many of you are gamers, but I can completely compare this book to Mass Effect 3 at the day of release (before any extended ending, etc). The entire thing was beautiful to experience. So much was happening so fast that I found it difficult to take a break now and then. However at the end, there was so much left open that I just became a little depressed. I don't need things with a pretty little bow on them, just some sort of explanation or hint. Off the top of my head, I really looked forward to the 'Three in a boat' prophecy, Moiraine's guidance (It really felt like she was ignored except for when she made her return), The damane issue (Yes, Mat asked Artur to go speak with Tuon, but we never saw anything of that, or even hinting about that meeting later on), I really wanted to know what happened to Gaul. Did he survive his injuries? Did he succumb and I happened to miss it? Who was the character that Sanderson wanted to survive, but had to kill? What about Logain's aura of glory? Is it because he now loosely leads the Asha'man? I felt like Androl's opinions had more weight, the only reason he didnt lead was because he looked to Logain. Also what happens with the Asha'man now? Do they merge with the tower, or remain near Caemlyn? Some sort of reunion there would have been very nice.
   At the very end, did Rand really just bail on everyone? His three women obviously know the truth, but dont say anything (not even to his father)? Why was he no longer able to channel Saidin and why did have some sort of super power (he imagined the pipe lit, and it became lit)? Those few things I guess Im fine with not having an answer. But the rest of the characters.. I just feel a hole there.

 

  Sorry for the rant. I finished the book on Saturday and the lack of so many resolutions has just been eating away at me.

[MarkDiLillo]

Yep.  Overall, the book and the ending was botched horribly.  But at the same time it delivered and was satisfying.  Not sure how else I can describe how it feels to me.

[Traslyn1]

Could the voice not be someone from Tel'aran'rhiod?  Like the way Perrin spoke to Nynaeve about the dreamspike and only to make gateways at the entrance of SG.   Could the voice in fact be any hero of the horn?  Anla perhaps? or Harriet?

[Khazul]

To add a point, I completely understand that some things were supposed to be left unsaid. Robert Jordan originally planned two (I think) outrigger series'. However, being that we as readers will literally never experience them (ever!), some resolution on other characters would have been really nice.

[Entreri]

The problem in Mass Effect 3 was that whatever you did, it really had no impact on the ending.

 

Rand:

Since his awakening at Dragonmount, Rand's abilities have increased dramatically, well beyond LTT.  He can manipulate the Pattern, counterpoint to Shai'tan and after his confrontation with Shai'tan he is intimately aware of the Pattern (Neo of the Matrix).

 

He also gained a lot of raw OP Power: In the Lord of Chaos he was very easily shielded by a circle of 13 AS, even with the angreal. In AMOL, he threw away a shield from a full circle with the same angreal.  Also, nobody else could have done what he did in Maradon without a powerful sa'angreal. 

[MarkDiLillo]

I can only hope that some kind of enyclopedia or final bit of material will be released that will fill us in on all of what we're missing.  Or at least let us know that the answer for our questions wasn't left behind in the notes.

[Khazul]

Yeah, I'd be okay with just knowing what some of the notes said regarding the endings. There is.. just to much left open. Its to much.

[lilltempest]

The problem in Mass Effect 3 was that whatever you did, it really had no impact on the ending.

 

Rand:

Since his awakening at Dragonmount, Rand's abilities have increased dramatically, well beyond LTT.  He can manipulate the Pattern, counterpoint to Shai'tan and after his confrontation with Shai'tan he is intimately aware of the Pattern (Neo of the Matrix).

+1. I hated ME3 and stopped right before the final battle because it was utterly pointless and too depressing to continue. The game ruined the entired ME series for me. You didn't matter and you had no chance to save the people you cared about. Furthermore, you were inconsequential in the big scheme of things: you can choose one of three colors after that little god-child sh!thead makes it clear that the only purpose you serve is how to get screwed. Any other character could've served the same purpose.

 

Anyway, I agree with your point: Rand made a difference. He grew in power, wisdom, and knowledge. He alone could do what had to be done - yes, he needed help, but no one else could have taken his place. Much more satisfying than ME3.

[Suttree]

Rand:

Since his awakening at Dragonmount, Rand's abilities have increased dramatically, well beyond LTT.  He can manipulate the Pattern, counterpoint to Shai'tan and after his confrontation with Shai'tan he is intimately aware of the Pattern (Neo of the Matrix).

 

He also gained a lot of raw OP Power: In the Lord of Chaos he was very easily shielded by a circle of 13 AS, even with the angreal. In AMOL, he threw away a shield from a full circle with the same angreal.  Also, nobody else could have done what he did in Maradon without a powerful sa'angreal. 

I don't think that is completely true. Yes we know by the end he took a huge step forward in powers but per Brandon he had already powered up immensely(in op strength, recall the "battle of the temple" quote) by KoD. Hope he gets asked for clarification on this tour and I know you don't like to take his word on this topic but he was clear about that. We know he used an item of power at Maradon(that by his own admission came in very handy) and that the DF "light power" was actually a trick. The patter manipulation was of course a big level up however.

[Entreri]

 

Rand:

Since his awakening at Dragonmount, Rand's abilities have increased dramatically, well beyond LTT.  He can manipulate the Pattern, counterpoint to Shai'tan and after his confrontation with Shai'tan he is intimately aware of the Pattern (Neo of the Matrix).

 

He also gained a lot of raw OP Power: In the Lord of Chaos he was very easily shielded by a circle of 13 AS, even with the angreal. In AMOL, he threw away a shield from a full circle with the same angreal.  Also, nobody else could have done what he did in Maradon without a powerful sa'angreal. 

I don't think that is completely true. Yes we know by the end he took a huge step forward in powers but per Brandon he had already powered up immensely(in op strength, recall the "battle of the temple" quote) by KoD. Hope he gets asked for clarification on this tour and I know you don't like to take his word on this topic but he was clear about that. We know he used an item of power at Maradon(that by his own admission came in very handy) and that the DF "light power" was actually a trick. The patter manipulation was of course a big level up however.

 

KOD, with 25+ channelers, including Rand himself, Logain, Alivia, Cadusane+angreal, Nyaneve+angreal etc, they barely defeated 100,000. 

 

At Maradon, Rand had the same angreal as in LoC (that item of Power, as stated in AMOL), he took out a much larger force than those 25+channelers. His Dragonmount moment took him to the next level, peerless.  His Pattern manipulation was certainly his ace card. 

 

At the end of AMOL, without the One Power or the True Power, Rand bend reality to his will.  He is no longer ta'avern, Shai'tan is imprisoned. 

 

And at one point, I would say he is even beyond the Power level of the Creator. Rand stated he can destroy Shai'tan like an insect.  Creator=Shai'tan, ying and the yang.

 

DF light power a trick? I will have look at AMOL tomorrow, I read it rather fast.  

[Suttree]

Oh I agree by the end that he stepped up to a new level in controlling reality.

 

As for ToM leaving aside the numbers however from KoD/Marado Brandon clearly stated that he had already powered up greatly as of KoD and that is why we didn't get in his head much. Again he had an item of power aiding him at Maradon and Moridin called him out on the "listening for a sped up heartbeat" trick with Weiramon. It wasn't some new light power to find DF as some suggested.

[Entreri]

Oh I agree by the end that he stepped up to a new level in controlling reality.

 

As for ToM leaving aside the numbers however from KoD/Marado Brandon clearly stated that he had already powered up greatly as of KoD and that is why we didn't get in his head much. Again he had an item of power aiding him at Maradon and Moridin called him out on the "listening for a sped up heartbeat" trick with Weiramon. It wasn't some new light power to find DF as some suggested.

He clearly did not power up completely in KOD. 

 

Again, he only had the same angreal as in LOC in Maradon. 

 

That had nothing to do with the hearbeat, Weirman and what's her name could not stare at the Light enamanting from Rand, which proved to Rand that they were indeed DF's.  Rand also drove several DF's mad at Maradon.

 

Ishamael believes that he is only facing LTT, not something beyond LTT. LTT was/is insufficient to finish off Shai'tan.

 

Rand is not the only one with this type of ability, Fain can spot anyone turned to the Dark side.

 

As I stated long ago and some have disagreed, Rand after Dragonmount has move beyond LTT.