Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[MarkDiLillo]

Well in the last age he kind of DID screw everything up...

[Suttree]

Well in the last age he kind of DID screw everything up...

He also saved everything however. The plan was flawed but it did give the world time. Him an LPD were blancing each other out so the world could continue, rather fitting given the theme of the books. That is quite clearly paralleled once again with the Rand/Eggy balance.

[cordes72]

Who was the second gay channeler? I completely missed it and only saw the line about Emarin.

[XXX]

Well in the last age he kind of DID screw everything up...

 

He also did save the world from total and utter destruction.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Well in the last age he kind of DID screw everything up...

He also saved everything however. The plan was flawed but it did give the world time. Him an LPD were blancing each other out so the world could continue, rather fitting given the theme of the books. That is quite clearly paralleled once again with the Rand/Eggy balance.

 

Ya I know - I was just saying that 3000 years of chaos and male channelers being killed is not exactly something you can chalk up under the "win" column for LTT.

[Cherubin]

Something I have now in my mind: Graendel and Moggi are still alive, both enslaved. Age of Legends weaves should be widely available to female channelers in the future!

 

Something I did not get: Why chose Leilwin and Bayle Domon to be da'vocale to the White Tower? They felt so out of character (hot tempered like Nynaeve...) that I really really thought they were (1) compulsed, or (2) Black Ajay in disguise. By the way, what happened to Leilwin when Egwene died?

[KakitaOCU]

I wouldn't say unharmed, there's the psychological trauma of what he went through, not to mention the body horror. On the same hand though I can see your point about his death. They could even let his three wives still have access to him, just get the three of them dreaming rings and voiloi. Though that would break Min's viewing about Aviendha having children.

[Viperswhip]

One question here, does Rand essentially light a pipe at the end with the Pattern? I was pretty sleep deprived by that point lol. He definitely didn't use the power, but it was like, oh I need this pipe lit? lol

 

I may be incorrect.

[MarkDiLillo]

One question here, does Rand essentially light a pipe at the end with the Pattern? I was pretty sleep deprived by that point lol. He definitely didn't use the power, but it was like, oh I need this pipe lit? lol

 

I may be incorrect.

 

You're correct.  I think its just a little easter egg to spark mystery with the ending.  Best speculation is that considering all he just went through he has gained some TAR-like abilities in the real world now.  He spent a long time inbetween worlds and wove his own pattern in there, etc.

 

I dont think its meant to be anything that is explainable nor do I think its something that was meant to be thought a lot about.  It's just a quirk at the end.

[RelentlessAttack]

Just read the entire book in one sitting so I'm a bit disoriented and unclear on some stuff towards the end but.

 

When Rand comes out of the cave carrying Moridin - is that still Rand as Rand, or Rand as Moridin?

[MarkDiLillo]

It's Rand as Rand.

[Therese Sedai]

Venaliter I agree with you wholeheartedly. I find it be an astounding farce. I can't believe the foundations of this book came from the same person who penned EotW.

 

I hope Rand falls into a bog and dies without a soul in sight.

[Viperswhip]

Wow, the hate on Rand or the fact he didn't die, die? Killing him later doesn't make things better. The matter had been prophecied over and over throughout the books and came out more or less the way it was supposed to.

 

Is Tam Steward of the Two Rivers now? Perrin will go off to be King of Saldea?

 

Tenobia running around and getting swarmed was kind of fun, but maybe due to compulsion on the great captain, so that's less cool. I would like her to have died due to her hot headed nature rather than compulsion.

[herid]

 

One question here, does Rand essentially light a pipe at the end with the Pattern? I was pretty sleep deprived by that point lol. He definitely didn't use the power, but it was like, oh I need this pipe lit? lol

 

I may be incorrect.

 

You're correct.  I think its just a little easter egg to spark mystery with the ending.  Best speculation is that considering all he just went through he has gained some TAR-like abilities in the real world now.  He spent a long time inbetween worlds and wove his own pattern in there, etc.

 

I dont think its meant to be anything that is explainable nor do I think its something that was meant to be thought a lot about.  It's just a quirk at the end.

 

 this is clearly the hook RJ was talking about and  it was done specifically to make the fans speculate. I'm sure they will too. I agree though that this is not explainable, or, at least, it will never be explained by the authors. Could be a TAR like ability as you say. or a new type of power Rand seemed to use at the end in the sealing. or is this happening in a Pattern that Rand created during his battle with the DO? I suspect people will think of other possibilities too.

[KakitaOCU]

Venaliter I agree with you wholeheartedly. I find it be an astounding farce. I can't believe the foundations of this book came from the same person who penned EotW.

 

I hope Rand falls into a bog and dies without a soul in sight.

Exactly how is it a farce? Why should Rand have died? Not begrudging you your opinion, but this is a discussion form. Personally I have no problem with the way things worked out, so I'm curious what you feel was wrong or should have been different.

[Viperswhip]

 

 

One question here, does Rand essentially light a pipe at the end with the Pattern? I was pretty sleep deprived by that point lol. He definitely didn't use the power, but it was like, oh I need this pipe lit? lol

 

I may be incorrect.

 

You're correct.  I think its just a little easter egg to spark mystery with the ending.  Best speculation is that considering all he just went through he has gained some TAR-like abilities in the real world now.  He spent a long time inbetween worlds and wove his own pattern in there, etc.

 

I dont think its meant to be anything that is explainable nor do I think its something that was meant to be thought a lot about.  It's just a quirk at the end.

 

 this is clearly the hook RJ was talking about and  it was done specifically to make the fans speculate. I'm sure they will too. I agree though that this is not explainable, or, at least, it will never be explained by the authors. Could be a TAR like ability as you say. or a new type of power Rand seemed to use at the end in the sealing. or is this happening in a Pattern that Rand created during his battle with the DO? I suspect people will think of other possibilities too.

Isn't this a bit Neo from the Matrix? heh. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it, I thought it was a bit funny, but it does suggest a rather firm relation to the pattern, or maybe he is the pattern, in that he is the representative of existence.

 

Can't believe he passed up the opportunity to go to his own funeral. Maybe just knowing people were there other than his gfs was enough.

[herid]

 

 

 

One question here, does Rand essentially light a pipe at the end with the Pattern? I was pretty sleep deprived by that point lol. He definitely didn't use the power, but it was like, oh I need this pipe lit? lol

 

I may be incorrect.

 

You're correct.  I think its just a little easter egg to spark mystery with the ending.  Best speculation is that considering all he just went through he has gained some TAR-like abilities in the real world now.  He spent a long time inbetween worlds and wove his own pattern in there, etc.

 

I dont think its meant to be anything that is explainable nor do I think its something that was meant to be thought a lot about.  It's just a quirk at the end.

 

 this is clearly the hook RJ was talking about and  it was done specifically to make the fans speculate. I'm sure they will too. I agree though that this is not explainable, or, at least, it will never be explained by the authors. Could be a TAR like ability as you say. or a new type of power Rand seemed to use at the end in the sealing. or is this happening in a Pattern that Rand created during his battle with the DO? I suspect people will think of other possibilities too.

Isn't this a bit Neo from the Matrix?

 

lol, I didn't think of that comparison but yeh, it does sound like it. but I don't insist on any of the the theories I mentioned. as I said this is clearly a hook to encourage endless reader speculation. I'm not even sure RJ left an explanation for it really is or that he even had a firm pinion about it himself.

[Amandera]

The exchange between Hend the Striker and Mat... anyone else thinks it's the way Mat's narrative usually goes? He always says he's not going to be a hero but he is always there in the end. When I was reading that scene, I thought it only solidified that Mat was bound to the Horn. Maybe not telling a spun-out Hero about what he/she really is one of their precepts. Because I really think Mat is a HotH. By extension, same goes for Perrin of course.

[skalors3]

Just read the entire book in one sitting so I'm a bit disoriented and unclear on some stuff towards the end but.

 

When Rand comes out of the cave carrying Moridin - is that still Rand as Rand, or Rand as Moridin?

I think at this point he is still Rand.

[MarkDiLillo]

I find it funny that many of your complaints exist around plot threads written by RJ. Not all, but upwards of 75%.

 

There were some things left out. Some likely intentional.

 

I would say, out of everything you said, that I would agree with your comment about Moraine. Why bring her back?

 

Just because a book did not end as envisioned is no reason to assume it is BS's fault. It is convenient that such a scape goat exists, but aside from prose and a few other points, you just don't know what ideas were his and which ideas were RJ's.

 

You misunderstand.  I dont have a problem with the plot resolution on all of these items.  I have a problem with how it was presented to us in the book (or the lack of presentation).  For instance, Brandon Sanderson himself set Alanna up to be a major cliff hanger in his last book.  Then he just basically forgot to put her in this one.  He certainly didn't resolve the cliff hanger or even attempt to.  It felt half assed.  Kind of like he finished the book and then went "oh crap, I forgot Alanna...let me add her in real fast."

 

There is a clear difference between disliking an actual plot piece and how something ended and disliking how it was presented to us in the book.

[skalors3]

The exchange between Hend the Striker and Mat... anyone else thinks it's the way Mat's narrative usually goes? He always says he's not going to be a hero but he is always there in the end. When I was reading that scene, I thought it only solidified that Mat was bound to the Horn. Maybe not telling a spun-out Hero about what he/she really is one of their precepts. Because I really think Mat is a HotH. By extension, same goes for Perrin of course.

I really think he isn't. He has the persoanlity that screams "I'll turn the offer down."

[MarkDiLillo]

The exchange between Hend the Striker and Mat... anyone else thinks it's the way Mat's narrative usually goes? He always says he's not going to be a hero but he is always there in the end. When I was reading that scene, I thought it only solidified that Mat was bound to the Horn. Maybe not telling a spun-out Hero about what he/she really is one of their precepts. Because I really think Mat is a HotH. By extension, same goes for Perrin of course.

 

I thought it was written well and captured Mat's voice, but the mere act of asking that question broke the narrative and was extremely out of character.  It was a clear attempt by the author to answer a question that we all wanted to know about Mat.  I feel like that question could have been answered in other ways that flowed better with the story.  What if Herid had clapped Mat on the back and said maybe he'll be chosen to be bound to the Horn if he keeps it up?

[skalors3]

 

 

 

I find it funny that many of your complaints exist around plot threads written by RJ. Not all, but upwards of 75%.

 

There were some things left out. Some likely intentional.

 

I would say, out of everything you said, that I would agree with your comment about Moraine. Why bring her back?

 

Just because a book did not end as envisioned is no reason to assume it is BS's fault. It is convenient that such a scape goat exists, but aside from prose and a few other points, you just don't know what ideas were his and which ideas were RJ's.

You misunderstand. I dont have a problem with the plot resolution on all of these items. I have a problem with how it was presented to us in the book (or the lack of presentation). For instance, Brandon Sanderson himself set Alanna up to be a major cliff hanger in his last book. Then he just basically forgot to put her in this one. He certainly didn't resolve the cliff hanger or even attempt to. It felt half assed. Kind of like he finished the book and then went "oh crap, I forgot Alanna...let me add her in real fast."

 

There is a clear difference between disliking an actual plot piece and how something ended and disliking how it was presented to us in the book.

Or it was an item of interest and it turned out to be so small, but large at the same time. She disappeared, and it was assume she was gearing towards something momentous, but in fact she got what she deserved by bonding Rand without permission.

 

That aside, if she died it would have weakened Rand if it occurred in the middle of his battle. Without Nynaeve, Rand lost. I think she was an enormous part in the struggle. She held on.

 

I think the only lackluster appearance was Moraine. Literary license though. For either BS or RJ.

[MarkDiLillo]

Yes, it was small yet large at the same time.  But it was treated as if it was inconsequential.  Just "oh there's Alanna...oh hey she's bleeding and dying...weird."

 

Let's consider the following that could have and should have been addressed regarding the Alanna situation:

 

- Rand would have felt her get injured.  Why was there no mention or comment of this?

 

- Rand would have sensed where she was.  Why didn't he mention, think, or comment about Alanna being in The Pit of Doom with him when he was entering?

 

Now imagine that both of the above were addressed.  Just a few sentences added and suddenly the Alanna situation makes a lot more sense and feels a lot more organic within the story.

[Viperswhip]

Rand was pretty busy at the point they actually notice her.

 

I was kind of underwhelmed with Nynaeve in the book, though just being there to seize the Moridin when possible is super, I am now more pleased with realising that she showed off how herbs and medical knowledge were super duper useful and saved the world right in front of probably her greatest critic in that regard lol