Why are there so many Darkfriends?

[Vardar]

 

Honestly, like I've posted before, they're just stupid. I mean if there was proof of the promised immortality, I could see. But as far as I know no one yet has it right? So all Dfs are either stupid or just evil and want to cause chaos. Otherwise why would you fall for an obvious lie?

They're not stupid, if they were they'd all have been killed centuries ago. They are greedy, vain and lazy, looking for a short-cut to what they want. There are many people out there, stupid and intelligent, that would crave immortality, power and vengeance on those who slight them. The Shadow promises them this if they serve well and the book does have several examples of this happening (Mili Skane coming easily to mind). While it is more likely the poor DF will die in some horrific way, most only see the reward.

 

But there's 0 proof of the immorality. None. This organization is thousands of years of right? You'd think that at least 1 person would have achieved the immortality by now.

 

Use this analogy: how many people would continue to play the lottery if no one ever, in history won.

 

So yea, they're greedy, vain, evil, etc, but they have to lack in intelligence if they're joining on a promise that is an obvious lie.

[Vardar]

join the dark side

they pay well in the dark side

it warm and fuzzy in the dark side

:)))

 

i think it a combination of 2 reasons

1. greed , as was said DF is networking u get some benefit social/monitary/ super natural...

dpend on your value to the dark one and on what u want

2. i think Hag earlier respond demonstrate it the BEST.

Hag respond to the "imagine if 1/2 your professor been devil worshipper" was "cool man" :)

most ppl dont really believe in the Dark one , the LB ..... and certaintly that it is so near .

 

say i come to you and offer u a valid good job with better pay and perks and all u have to do is take an oath to the devil.

will u do it ?

out of 1000 how many will agrea ?

out of 1000 how many will actually believe that this oath actually have any consequences ?

 

and that without the immortality hook which play on humanity most base fear ;)

If you brought that proposal to me, and you had 0 evidence of these rewards, I'd turn you down. Unless I had no choice or something.

 

If you think about the grey men, is even worse. They give up rebirth to be badass assassins for one lifetime. Way kinda cruddy deal is that!?!?!?!?!

[Hagazussa]

If you brought that proposal to me, and you had 0 evidence of these rewards, I'd turn you down. Unless I had no choice or something.

 

Well ours is another world, belief in the supernatural, even among us who actually do believe in various things are not as absolute as you find in WoT. What if you knew the Devil was real beyond a shadow of a doubt, you knew he was as real as the air you breathe and someone gave you those promises, would they not then be a little more easy to believe in, especially if what you where offered whee something you really, really wanted. Just have a look at how many people who send money to Nigeria scammers, or how many buy the super duper diet pill that will make you loose 10 pounds a week without exercise or dieting. Studies have shown that when something we really, really, really desire is on the table we tend to think less critically.

 

If you think about the grey men, is even worse. They give up rebirth to be badass assassins for one lifetime. Way kinda cruddy deal is that!?!?!?!?!

 

I doubt they tell the candidate the fine print of the deal.

[Ozzie_aiel]

 

 

 

Honestly, like I've posted before, they're just stupid. I mean if there was proof of the promised immortality, I could see. But as far as I know no one yet has it right? So all Dfs are either stupid or just evil and want to cause chaos. Otherwise why would you fall for an obvious lie?

They're not stupid, if they were they'd all have been killed centuries ago. They are greedy, vain and lazy, looking for a short-cut to what they want. There are many people out there, stupid and intelligent, that would crave immortality, power and vengeance on those who slight them. The Shadow promises them this if they serve well and the book does have several examples of this happening (Mili Skane coming easily to mind). While it is more likely the poor DF will die in some horrific way, most only see the reward.

But there's 0 proof of the immorality. None. This organization is thousands of years of right? You'd think that at least 1 person would have achieved the immortality by now.

 

Use this analogy: how many people would continue to play the lottery if no one ever, in history won.

 

So yea, they're greedy, vain, evil, etc, but they have to lack in intelligence if they're joining on a promise that is an obvious lie.

The Forsaken are over 3000 yrs old. Yes they've been asleep most of it, but DFs still see them as immortal as do the forsaken themselves. And whos to say some dreadlord or highly succussful darkfriend hasn't reached immortality, then been killed off or died in an accident, or caught a plague, or one of dozens of other ways its possible to die in a quasi-medieval world

 

And theres always the old adage "Theres a first time for everything"

[Hagazussa]

Also remember channelers can get pretty darn old. A powerful Dreadlord can reach nearly 1000 years, but most normal human beings do not know this so if he or she can prove their age they can claim it is the immorality that the Dark One have given them which have made them live that long and many who know little about channelers will believe them on that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

While I am not saying that the DO shows every Darkfriend, the DO has provided plenty of evidence that immortality is not unreasonable. 

 

RJ did say that the DO can in fact grant immortality. 

 

I believe that is why the number of DF's have grown since the seals have begun to weaken. 

 

Usually, the average DF is a vain fool or greedy for power, or just wants to watch the world burn (and the occasional one that gets into it for a bit of an adventure). However, since the DO's influence has increased, and his power is more evident, DF's have reason to believe that immortality is indeed possible. 

 

Aginor was restored by the DO in EotW (no, it wasn't the Eye, RJ confirmed it was the DO). 

 

The Dead have been brought back to life. The DO's influence on the Pattern is extraordinary, and anyone who has been to Shayol Ghul, where the impossible is commonplace, would certainly not be stupid to believe the DO can grant immortality. 

[elric]

hmmm

 

u want this world example to how DF organisation can grow ?

 

Sciencetology ! :)))))

[Luckers]

Re: Immortality and the reasons that darkfriends and Forsaken have to believe they will be granted it.

 

 

Question

To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?

 

Robert Jordan

Oh yes.

 

QUESTION

Aren't the Forsaken already ...

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. They're not immortal.

 

QUESTION

Do they know that?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, they know that.

 

QUESTION

But they believe they are immortal.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality. And they believe this because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life. Give the dead new bodies. Transfer souls from a dying body into a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this. So they know that can be done. So it's not as though they are believing something, somebody just walked up to you and said "I can make you immortal if you go out and do this, kill and do awful deeds". They've seen him, they have seen these incredible things done. So they have reason to believe.

[Ozzie_aiel]

hmmm

 

u want this world example to how DF organisation can grow ?

 

Sciencetology ! :)))))

hahaha

 

Tom Cruise is one of the Forsaken! (Probably Sammael, he was short too)

[Charlz Guybon]

The Dark One has resurrected people. That's as good a demonstration of immortality as you can ask for.

 

 

By the way in the Age of Legends, half of the Aes Sedai did turn to the Shadow. That was probably partly so, because such resurrections were trumpeted through mass media propaganda. The other part of course was the Dark One having a hundred years to influence people before beginning the war of power.

[Bobwheel]

I'm halfway through The Path of Daggers and I just have the simple question of why is every other person a Darkfriend? Literally half of the White Tower is Darkfriends, I'm pretty sure a good amount of Asha'man are too and a handful are just everyday people who are actually The Forsaken. Do that many people think they are safe when the last battle comes?

 

 

Maybe because you have to serve the light, but the Dark One wants to be your friend?

[Ozzie_aiel]

The Dark One has resurrected people. That's as good a demonstration of immortality as you can ask for.

 

 

By the way in the Age of Legends, half of the Aes Sedai did turn to the Shadow. That was probably partly so, because such resurrections were trumpeted through mass media propaganda. The other part of course was the Dark One having a hundred years to influence people before beginning the war of power.

How would you spin that? "Join the Shadow, no matter how many times you die horribly, we can bring you back for more"

 

[Thrasymachus]

Why does Rand decide that the endless cycle of death and rebirth is worth it, instead of destroying the whole Pattern on Dragonmount with the Chodean Kal in Veins of Gold?  That rhetorical question perhaps hold the answer to your question.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The Dark One has resurrected people. That's as good a demonstration of immortality as you can ask for.

 

 

By the way in the Age of Legends, half of the Aes Sedai did turn to the Shadow. That was probably partly so, because such resurrections were trumpeted through mass media propaganda. The other part of course was the Dark One having a hundred years to influence people before beginning the war of power.

How would you spin that? "Join the Shadow, no matter how many times you die horribly, we can bring you back for more"

 

 

Better than "Join the Light, even if you die fighting to help us win, you can come back again and do it all again the next time it happens." 

[Ozzie_aiel]

How many people here would choose to be a darkfriend if they were promised immortality? If living forever isn't your thing what would be your price for your loyalty?

 

I don't think I'd ever be a DF, eternal life holds no desire for me and I'm too cynical to believe I'd get what was offered to me anyway

[Durinax]

How many people here would choose to be a darkfriend if they were promised immortality? If living forever isn't your thing what would be your price for your loyalty?

 

I don't think I'd ever be a DF, eternal life holds no desire for me and I'm too cynical to believe I'd get what was offered to me anyway

a harem 3 times as big as rands, with only the hottest babes, a couple of insanely good chefs, lands, titles, lots of cash.

[jackshadowman]

I still not entirely sure that explanation cover's how you become a dark one someone goes from town to town and asks you to swear oaths. While anyway I think with the dark one touching the world more every day that he's gaining more dark friends from using his power to infiltrate people's dream and prey's on peoples weakness. Gaining more and more followers as the last battle approaches that's how I thought of it I don't think this is a spoiler but in later books the dark one's touch has really done a number on the world as a whole. Throwing time into chaos in some cases (Certain unnamed village) so it would make sense to me that the dark one is able to touch people's souls easier and convert them and so the total number of dark friends is increasing as we go through the book's. (Just a theory)

[John Everyman]

One of my overall gripes with the series lies with the darkfriends.  I can give RJ some leeway here, since he was definitely writing with a different mindset- I think of WOT as the culmination of "old school" fantasy- but he never makes an attempt to examine why someone would turn to the shadow.  Why they would become a friend of the dark.  Oh, sure, there's the standard answer, power, but even that has some unexplored depth. 

 

This goes somewhat for the forsaken, as well.  One thing I found odd (spoilers for The Shadow Rising follow) is with Rand's capture of Asmodean.  A fairly big deal is made that Asmodean cannot be trusted because "he's the same man who turned to the shadow".  Sure, that's fair, especially so for Asmodean, considering the guy turned thousands of years ago.  Even so, I found it somewhat odd that the idea that Asmodean could potentially change is never even considered by Rand.  Of the many themes explored by Robert Jordan throughout the series, redemption does not seem to be one of them.  It's like the Forsaken, and by extension the Darkfriends and the Black Ajah (come to think of it, we never get any good reasons to why the Black Ajah turn either) were born evil.  They're evil by default.  Thinking about this, I'm also curious how exactly darkfriends are recruited.  Do they have to be Grade-A jackasses in order to get the attention of other darkfriends? 

 

Like I said, I can't knock RJ for this too much; this was before the days where blurring the lines between heroes and villains became popular in fantasy.  He gets some flak for having a villain named "The Dark One" (I personally wish he would have been called something else), and it is a very bad trope of fantasy, to have villains that come across as evil just because the authors says so, but I do think it's done fairly well in WOT. 

[Mr Ares]

One of my overall gripes with the series lies with the darkfriends.  I can give RJ some leeway here, since he was definitely writing with a different mindset- I think of WOT as the culmination of "old school" fantasy- but he never makes an attempt to examine why someone would turn to the shadow.  Why they would become a friend of the dark.  Oh, sure, there's the standard answer, power, but even that has some unexplored depth. 

 

This goes somewhat for the forsaken, as well.  One thing I found odd (spoilers for The Shadow Rising follow) is with Rand's capture of Asmodean.  A fairly big deal is made that Asmodean cannot be trusted because "he's the same man who turned to the shadow".  Sure, that's fair, especially so for Asmodean, considering the guy turned thousands of years ago.  Even so, I found it somewhat odd that the idea that Asmodean could potentially change is never even considered by Rand.  Of the many themes explored by Robert Jordan throughout the series, redemption does not seem to be one of them.  It's like the Forsaken, and by extension the Darkfriends and the Black Ajah (come to think of it, we never get any good reasons to why the Black Ajah turn either) were born evil.  They're evil by default.  Thinking about this, I'm also curious how exactly darkfriends are recruited.  Do they have to be Grade-A jackasses in order to get the attention of other darkfriends? 

 

Like I said, I can't knock RJ for this too much; this was before the days where blurring the lines between heroes and villains became popular in fantasy.  He gets some flak for having a villain named "The Dark One" (I personally wish he would have been called something else), and it is a very bad trope of fantasy, to have villains that come across as evil just because the authors says so, but I do think it's done fairly well in WOT. 

So, you forgot about Verin and Ingtar then? We have a few examples of why people would turn to the Shadow, we have a couple of examples of people seeking redemption. And given that He is called the Dark One by his enemies, I don't see that as being that big a problem - Great Lord of the Dark being used by his own side is perhaps more of a problem, although even then we have the example of the Chosen - aside from Lanfear, they were given names by their enemies, and then claimed those names for their own, so it could just as easily be the case that they are taking over terms like "the Shadow", taking names given to them by their enemies and making them their own. It's something that happens in real life as well.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Some of the major Darkfriends we have a little backstory as to reasons they may have gone over, but in general we don't need one for every df that comes along, especially if they're gonna die soon anyway.

 

Other than that, we have the same reasons why people do these things here in the real world. Anger, jealousy, fear, desire, greed, hatred. Only in the WoT, these characteristics are searched out by other dfs and 'nurtured'.

[Charlz Guybon]

Darkfriends are a messianic cult without any competition. There is no organized religion extolling the Creator that opposes them, no afterlife to award the faithful and punish the wicked, only rebirth.  The Aes Sedai and normal philosophers and scholars we see take a Deistic approach to creation. The Creator made the world, imprisoned the Dark One, set up corrective measures (the Dragon, ta'veren, etc) and left. This may be true, but it's not very inspiring, there are not even karamic reflection in the next life for deeds done in this one. The closest thing they have to real competition is the Children of Light and they're murderous Aridhol wannabes. What's worse, the Dark One can actually perform evil miracles (is there a word for that?). The Creator doesn't actively do anything. That's why they're so successful.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Darkfriends are a messianic cult without any competition. There is no organized religion extolling the Creator that opposes them, no afterlife to award the faithful and punish the wicked, only rebirth. The Aes Sedai and normal philosophers and scholars we see take a Deistic approach to creation. The Creator made the world, imprisoned the Dark One, set up corrective measures (the Dragon, ta'veren, etc) and left. This may be true, but it's not very inspiring, there are not even karamic reflection in the next life for deeds done in this one. The closest thing they have to real competition is the Children of Light and they're murderous Aridhol wannabes. What's worse, the Dark One can actually perform evil miracles (is there a word for that?). The Creator doesn't actively do anything. That's why they're so successful.

That army of shadowspawn doesn't hurt either.

 

[DaoineSidhe]

Something to also consider is that at the end of the War of Power, the percentage of the population that were DFs was significant.  Considering that these are quasi-religious beliefs, it isn't hard to believe that being a DF would not be passed from mother & father to daughter & son.  That isn't to say that it always would be or is, just that it would be naive to think that it didn't occur either.  Given the fact that the DO & Forsaken have been sealed away for 3,000 years, it's not surprising that their numbers have dropped off a bit, but also isn't surprising that you can still run into them with relative ease around events that directly relate to their "cult" beliefs.

[Ozzie_aiel]

There is at least one account of a child apparantlu following his parent into the Shadow, the boy who brought news that the Rand survived an assassins attack (the grey man in LoC that Taim killed). And then there is Paitr and his uncle (who I assume was a DF as well). There are also several examples of married couples being darkfriends, so it wouldn't surprise me if their children were indoctrinated into the Shadow as well.

[Orange7]

Honestly. I think we can estimate that there are approximately 13-16 million people on the main continent of Randland from the Spine to the Aryth Ocean, and that about 140,000 of them are darkfriends.

 

 

Reasoning:

 

-Given that the two largest cities combined total 800,000 (Tar Valon - 500,000, Caemlyn - 300,000), and none of the other great cities (Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Ebou Dar, Bandar Eban, Tanchico, Amador, Maradon, Chachin, Shol Abera, Fal Moran, Lugard, Jehannah, and Far Madding)  have more than 300,000, we can determine that the major urban population among the great cities is less than 5.0 million. Considering the state of several of these (Ebou Dar, Jehannah, Amadicia, Far Madding, Lugard), and the fact that only a few of them possibly come close to the size of Caemlyn, I would wager that the total population is likely 4.2 million.

-Assuming that another 1.4 million live in smaller cities, such as Baerlon, Samara, Whitebridge, Four Kings, etc. puts us at 5.6 million.

-Then, we assume that about 60% of people are farmers, or live in rural areas in Randland. That would put the total population of Randland (Excluding Aiel and Seanchan) at about 14.0 million.

-I would give this an error of 2 million upward and one million lower for the following reasons:

      -Cairhien, for example, has almost no rural population since the Aiel war, and Ghealdan's was recently decimated, while Murandy and Andor both have thriving rural populations. Any of these could skew it somewhat (Perhaos by 1 million in either direction).

      -In addition, the smaller cities could likely also be slightly off, and there may be an error of up to 1 million upward (extremely unlikely to be greater error than that).

 

 

 

 

Assuming that 1 in every 100,000 is the correct ratio, there would be approximately 140 darkfriends in Randland. Given the rate of darkfriend-killing thus far, I'd wager a guess that if that ratio was correct, we would be out of darkfriends by now (also, we already know of at least 300-400 darkfriend characters, making this ratio impossible unless the population jumped a lot). I'm putting a wager in at about 1% of the population is darkfriends, giving us approximately 140,000 across the Randland.