Why are there so many Darkfriends?

[Kuchinski]

I'm halfway through The Path of Daggers and I just have the simple question of why is every other person a Darkfriend? Literally half of the White Tower is Darkfriends, I'm pretty sure a good amount of Asha'man are too and a handful are just everyday people who are actually The Forsaken. Do that many people think they are safe when the last battle comes?

[Agitel]

On the one hand we have an indifferent god who offers you nothing but the hope of rebirth. On the other we have an active god who claims to want to remake the world and grant immortality and power to those who swear to him. Even aside from the religious aspects, we have people like Ingtar, who have come to believe that swearing to the Shadow is the only way to save the people and land they love. Perhaps an even bigger motivator, we have people who see this as a network that can help them advance and achieve power in life, and who may believe that the Last Battle will never actually happen in their lifetime. Even those who swear to the Shadow may not really consider the idea of the Dark One coming as an actual possible reality, and a lot probably get involved without knowing a lot about it. Once in, you can't really get out. I do think there are some pretty strong motivators.

 

EDIT: I apologize if you caught a spoiler in my original post. I read that you were only up to PoD but it didn't click.

[Suttree]

I'm halfway through The Path of Daggers and I just have the simple question of why is every other person a Darkfriend? Literally half of the White Tower is Darkfriends...

 

 

First off the number of BA members is nowhere close to half the WT. Second while there are DF's at the BT we learn there is a specific reason for that later on. Are you saying that a "handful" of people at the BT are actually forsaken? That is incorrect. As for the overall numbers...

Interview: Oct 27th, 1994

 

LOC Signing Report - Tom Burke (Paraphrased)

Tom Burke

 

 

I introduced myself as an internet user. I told him that some on the net seemed to think that every other person was a Darkfriend. He replied, "I've heard". I told him that my feeling was that the number of Darkfriends in Randland were probably between 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000.

Robert Jordan

 

 

He replied, "Closer to the later, of course we see more of them because of the ta'veren."

Tom Burke

 

I asked if there were fewer amongst the Aiel than in the great cities.

Robert Jordan

 

He responded, "Yes, of course."

 

Most darkfriends are probably as shocked as anyone to learn that TG is approaching. For the most part they were just petty, selfish people looking for an easy leg up in life. I highly doubt they were anywhere close to being prepared for the DO to actually try and break free.

[AquilaInfernus]

Ingtar gives the best reasoning - despair - way back in tGH. Nowhere near half the Aes Sedai are darkfriends and only a handful of Asha'man are even introduced yet. Otherwise Mili Skane, Paitr and a few others are recurring characters with multiple aliases. Lanfear, Ishamael and Graendal do not really masquerade as characters as much. On top of this, at least one of the Forsaken considers the fear of darkfriends noting that they never really believed their oaths were binding - it is a rude shock and terrifying to be called on them.

 

Spoilers removed? Apologies if I was too late; PoD through to GS blend a lot for me

[EmperorAllspice]

I can't really understand the existence of Aiel darkfriends.

 

How does being a darkfriend work? Don't you have to go somewhere and take oaths? That's why I wouldn't become a darkfriend. Too much effort. You have to travel to the blight, research the heirarchy and the signals. Gah, so much work.

 

That's why I'm surprised there's so many Darkfriends. I'm surprised there's that many people with that kind of dedication XD

[Suttree]

Dude Aquila, major spoiler. He is only at TPoD.

[TNine]

1 in 100,000? We know there are like 50 darkfriends in Ebou Dar, so either the density there is really high or Ebou Dar is a city of a few million people--which is ridiculous, since Ebou Dar doesn't even have a full guard, let alone the infrastructure to support such a big population.

[Agitel]

1 in 100,000? We know there are like 50 darkfriends in Ebou Dar, so either the density there is really high or Ebou Dar is a city of a few million people--which is ridiculous, since Ebou Dar doesn't even have a full guard, let alone the infrastructure to support such a big population.

 

You grossly overestimate the population of Ebou Dar. Tar Valon is approx 500,000. Caemlyn 300,000. I highly doubt Ebou Dar is so big.

 

Anyway, you can probably expect higher concentrations of Dark Friends in cities and around places of power. Since this society is largely agrarian, that means most of the population is not concentrated in said cities. A sample from a city is going to be far different than a sample from the entire population. 1 in 100,000 in definitely reasonable if you take that type into account.

[Hagazussa]

Why would someone become a darkfriend? Well you toil along with your life, you be an Aes Sedai desperately seeking more political power, a pheasant living a life of drudgery, or a aging noblewoman who have lived her whole life being told that her only value is her beauty and so on, everyone have something they want more than anything else, or that they fear more than anything else. The one day someone show up and offers to give you that which you desire most, or offers to prevent that which you fear most if only you will join, they might even threaten to cause what you fear most to happen unless you agree. Now remember most people living in the Wheel of Time world do not have the bird's eye vision of the world that the reader is blessed with, to most the Creator and the Dark One while real is distant concepts. A man promised that if he serves well his dead wife will be returned to him, or an aging beauty offered immortality might feel that this very tangible offer is far more real than the idea of some ancient conflict between two in effect Gods. Most darkfriends are not given tasks that are that bad either, most are not told to go and kill or maim someone, they are told to spy, deliver messages or just be ready to be given orders if they are needed, such a task and searing a few oaths would be a small price in many's minds to have their heart's desires delivered to them.

 

Now once a darkfriend is in it is very hard to get out, and besides those promises they are given are seldom made good on right away. Sure good man the Great Lord will return your wife as soon as you accomplish this mission, and this one, and this, and once you have sold out everything you once believed in what other choice do you have than just continue and hope that you new masters will eventually make good on their promises?

 

There are no cities of million in Wheel of Time. Tar Valon is the most populated city and it have about 500 000 inhabitants, the largest cities have a few hundred thousand, but most cities only have a few tens of thousand or less so in most cities there would not even be one darkfriend. Now the reason why there are so many in the books is that fate is causing things to happen. It is just like the numbers of male channelers, Taim have how many are there now 500 or so in the Black Tower and he did that in a little over a year. Now Verin comments that about 200 years before the stat of the book the Red Ajah found two or thee male channelers a year, if they gentled any in the field perhaps the number is a little higher than that, and off course the Sea Folk drown one every now and again and the Aiel send some to the Blight to fight and die so let us say five a year as a rough guesstimate. Now take this 1000 years back perhaps there where 10 a year but that is a very far cry from that 500. Fate causes things to happen because the Last Battle is near and therefore there are also more darkfriends.

 

Also since the Last Battle is near and so much shit have been happening in the world you can imagine that Wheel of Time inhabitants are scared, and many might think that becoming a darkfriend is the only way to make sure that they and their families survive if the Dark One win. It is not so strange really why someone would become a darkfriend, people are not perfect, we are prideful, spiteful and ambitious and for many it is easy to loose sight of the straight and narrow when offered what we want most for simply swearing a few oaths.

[SylvanFox]

1 in 100,000? We know there are like 50 darkfriends in Ebou Dar, so either the density there is really high or Ebou Dar is a city of a few million people--which is ridiculous, since Ebou Dar doesn't even have a full guard, let alone the infrastructure to support such a big population.

 

You grossly overestimate the population of Ebou Dar. Tar Valon is approx 500,000. Caemlyn 300,000. I highly doubt Ebou Dar is so big.

 

Anyway, you can probably expect higher concentrations of Dark Friends in cities and around places of power. Since this society is largely agrarian, that means most of the population is not concentrated in said cities. A sample from a city is going to be far different than a sample from the entire population. 1 in 100,000 in definitely reasonable if you take that type into account.

 

Plus a lot of the Darkfriends in Ebou Dar that really got screen time were not from there, they had traveled there, presumably at the Shadow's behest.

[Wool-headed lummox]

It's pretty frustrating that Egwene never really reacts to the realization that 200 out of 1000 of Aes Sedai are Darkfriends. If someone proved to me that one fifth of my university professors worship the Devil, I'd seriously consider dropping out. Remember, when Suian Sanche was Amyrlin, she actually considered the possibility that Liandrin's thirteen were the only Black Ajah in the Tower, or close to it. That's how little people knew about the BA before Egwene up and executed half of them.

[Hagazussa]

If I found out that half the professors at a school I was attending where worshiping the Devil I would think that rather cool. :P

 

What is interesting is how much higher prevalence there is of Darkfriends among Aes Sedai than among the regular population. If the prevalence is 1 per 100 000 among the regular population, then that is bought up to one in five or one in six among Aes Sedai, and that is allot. It may be that Aes Sedai being more powerful is just more tempting targets for recruitment.

[BFG]

Not sure when this info comes available so in spoilers just in case

 

 

The implication seems to be that Ishmael targeted the WT specifically and actually founded the BA on one of his releases. Certainly they've had more Forsaken interest than any other organisation that we know of yet.

 

 

 

If this isn't appropriate I'll delete the post

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, we see more Darkfriends around the main characters because they are the main targets, Darkfriends gravitate to them because their orders more likely than not concern the characters.

 

The DF's in Ebou Dar would not all be locals, but recruited by the Blacks/Sammael/Moggy and Creator knows whoever else had a hand in looking for the stash of Power-related items.

 

Agree with the "more DF's in cities". Probably 80% would be situated in the cities. So even though they only have populations of 1-500 thousand, they probably have 10x the number of DF's than the ratio equates to, because a large percentage of the non-DF population would be the farmers and small villages.

 

With Aes Sedai, Ishamael and the Black Ajah have made a point of recruiting channelers. Those that display DF tendencies are actively recruited by the Blacks.

 

Your average joe doesn't find the Shadow that easily. There isn't a guild in every town. They have to actually seek out the Shadow, which is not an easy thing to do.

 

So considering there were little more than 1000 or so Aes Sedai, 2-300 Black Ajah is not too hard to believe within the context of the ratio RJ gave.

 

Edit: BFG, no need for spoilers. That comes from the BWB, or the Guide to the Wheel of Time, which isn't considered a spoiler. http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/guide/index.html (the first one)

[Maleshub]

I can't really understand the existence of Aiel darkfriends.

 

How does being a darkfriend work? Don't you have to go somewhere and take oaths? That's why I wouldn't become a darkfriend. Too much effort. You have to travel to the blight, research the heirarchy and the signals. Gah, so much work.

 

That's why I'm surprised there's so many Darkfriends. I'm surprised there's that many people with that kind of dedication XD

 

DF channelers take binding oaths. Non-channelers take "verbal" oaths. And there is more than one instance where Liandrin and Fain muse on non-channeler DF's who thought that they could go around their oaths to the GL. Their dedication isn't to the DO, it is to their own selves and power. Even the Foresaken show clearly that they care more about their hides than obeying Moridin's orders. It is all about immortality and power, not dedication to the DO.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I think 1 in 1,000 is a more likely ratio, I mean between being killed by the heroes, the forsaken, the aiel, Fain, the whitecloaks and eachother, they'd have been wiped out by now. I mean in tEotW darkfriends burnt down the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. Concidering the inn was quite large, crowded and alert for danger, there was likely more than one darkfriend in town.

 

Then there was the fight between Mat and darkfriends in KoD. There was a lot more than a couple of darkfriends there and they all had to come from relatively close by.

[Viperswhip]

Umm, in our own world I put baddies at about 1/15 or so, maybe not in our economic secure western bit but it can get pretty chaotic out there. Of those how many are dumb enough to swear their sole? I figure you can drop the rate to about 1/100 or 150. That's a lot of darkfriends in my mind. In Randland, the rate is probably closer to 1/300 because they actually watch for that kind of person.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Umm, in our own world I put baddies at about 1/15 or so, maybe not in our economic secure western bit but it can get pretty chaotic out there. Of those how many are dumb enough to swear their sole? I figure you can drop the rate to about 1/100 or 150. That's a lot of darkfriends in my mind. In Randland, the rate is probably closer to 1/300 because they actually watch for that kind of person.

 

1 in 300 is a bit much. If it were that much Perrin and Mat would likely be dead, drowned in a sea of darkfriends. Remember that not every villain is a darkfriend, realistically most of them wouldn't be. The story has so many because of the antagonist. If Rand was fighting a nasty crimelord we'd see a large number of pickpockets and thugs.

[Sightblinder'sMinder]

Consider, in the modern world today, just about every single one of us would be labeled a Darkfriend by the Medieval Church. My own grandmother probably would've labeled me a Darkfriend if she had known about some of the things I've done. She came from a different time, and a different culture (she was a Southern Baptist born in 1911), when things like "sex out of wedlock" and "marijuana smoking" were considered signs of the devil. Hell, in her eyes, "dancing" was an abomination, so you can imagine her reaction to some of the hump-hump-monkey dances kids do nowadays. 

 

Point being, Darkfriends seem bad because they're murderers, but so are those who walk in the Light. In a Medieval-style world, virtually everyone's a killer. Excepting that, Darkfriends are actually more like we are today; they're narcissistic, hedonistic control freaks. They'd fit right in in America 2012. 

[Vardar]

Honestly, like I've posted before, they're just stupid. I mean if there was proof of the promised immortality, I could see. But as far as I know no one yet has it right? So all Dfs are either stupid or just evil and want to cause chaos. Otherwise why would you fall for an obvious lie?

[Ozzie_aiel]

Honestly, like I've posted before, they're just stupid. I mean if there was proof of the promised immortality, I could see. But as far as I know no one yet has it right? So all Dfs are either stupid or just evil and want to cause chaos. Otherwise why would you fall for an obvious lie?

They're not stupid, if they were they'd all have been killed centuries ago. They are greedy, vain and lazy, looking for a short-cut to what they want. There are many people out there, stupid and intelligent, that would crave immortality, power and vengeance on those who slight them. The Shadow promises them this if they serve well and the book does have several examples of this happening (Mili Skane coming easily to mind). While it is more likely the poor DF will die in some horrific way, most only see the reward.

[Agitel]

Honestly, like I've posted before, they're just stupid. I mean if there was proof of the promised immortality, I could see. But as far as I know no one yet has it right? So all Dfs are either stupid or just evil and want to cause chaos. Otherwise why would you fall for an obvious lie?

 

Well, there's also the network of connections that can be used to advance yourself through life. It's a like a secret brotherhood. 

 

As for there being so many dark friends . . . Keep in mind that early on, the DFs were being directed towards  the group through their dreams by Ba'alzy.

[elric]

join the dark side

they pay well in the dark side

it warm and fuzzy in the dark side

:)))

 

i think it a combination of 2 reasons

1. greed , as was said DF is networking u get some benefit social/monitary/ super natural...

dpend on your value to the dark one and on what u want

2. i think Hag earlier respond demonstrate it the BEST.

Hag respond to the "imagine if 1/2 your professor been devil worshipper" was "cool man" :)

most ppl dont really believe in the Dark one , the LB ..... and certaintly that it is so near .

 

say i come to you and offer u a valid good job with better pay and perks and all u have to do is take an oath to the devil.

will u do it ?

out of 1000 how many will agrea ?

out of 1000 how many will actually believe that this oath actually have any consequences ?

 

and that without the immortality hook which play on humanity most base fear ;)

[Luckers]

Another point to consider is that the Dark One's influence on the nastier sides of peoples natures (as evidenced in the Collapse) would be growing stronger again as the Seals weaken.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Also, if you can get them when they are young and malleable, then groom them. Gareth Bryne POV told about a.DF who did that. The real world has some examples of this as well. Child soldiers are taken, indoctrinated and drugged to become ruthless fighters responsible for many attrocities.

 

Mesaana's schools set up in the AoL show it is not a new idea in Randland.