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Most infuriating moment/topic in the books

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Rand mass extermination of Natrin's Barrow ....

 

I'll be honest, to me that was awesome both in writing and in the tactic employed. I mean, how many died to bring down Sammael? To defeat Rahvin? Better to kill the effectively walking dead than those who still have a life ahead.

 

But maybe I just have stronger evil tendencies than I know :)

 

I actually loved that Rand was put in a place to make such a difficult decision. It's a war with the shadow, sunshine and rainbows don't apply.

 

Same goes for Perrin. Considering all the violence and trauma he's been through, of course that Shaido purposely rousing him would lead to a terrible instinctive act of violence. It was probably my favorite scene in that particular plot. One of my favorite Perrin moments. Another one would be Mat ordering the kill on Renna. I loved their respective horror in the aftermaths of those acts.

 

Scenes where characters do "bad" things/make mistakes don't bother me. It's only when the context supports those actions/thoughts/views and they're not considered problematic by anyone is when I get infuriated.

 

Both of those scenes have always made me remember that RJ served two tours of combat duty in Vietnam. He saw war up close and personal... I think these are reflections on the lessons he was taught there.

 

I personally liked the bit at Natrin's Barrow. Yeah, a bunch of innocents died, which is bad, but I liked the portrayal of Dark-Rand. I especially liked this quote:

“How do you fight someone smarter than yourself?” Rand whispered. “The answer is simple. You make her think that you are sitting down across the table from her, ready to play her game. Then you punch her in the face as hard as you can.”

 

Things are spinning out of control. He needs to reduce the amount of opponents as much as possible, as soon as possible. He only has vague ideas as to who/where the other enemies are, and limited opportunities to take advantage of. Graendal sitting all smug in her fortress was too good to pass up. He could have sent in an army of AS, AM, and soldiers, but she would have a counter for that and would escape. He couldn't risk letting her escape, even at the cost of innocent lives.

 

I wonder how far back he burned Delena/Aran'gar's thread? If Rhavin went back a couple hours, how much would CK Balefire send someone back? A few days? Weeks? Months? Back to before they were freed from the prison at SG?

 

The scene you quote was another of those that had me laughing out loud. I picture a smug adversary rubbing hands together, anticipating victory... then BAM! broken nose! Gotta love it.

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Understanding Rand's and Perrin's actions is different from justifying them. Perrin was downright sadistic in his torture of the Shaido prisoners of war. Perrin just lost it and crossed a dangerous threshold. He admitted that he's willing to make a deal with the DO for Faile. I wonder why Moridin didn't simply kidnap her to defeat Rand!

 

As to Natrin's Barrow, I won't turn this into an ethical discussion of the strike. But looking at it from Rand's personal standards about hurting women, he discarded that last bit of morality when he hit the manor house.

Edited by Theodril

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Understanding Rand's and Perrin's actions is different from justifying them. Perrin was downright sadistic in his torture of the Shaido prisoners of war. Perrin just lost it and crossed a dangerous threshold. He admitted that he's willing to make a deal with the DO for Faile. I wonder why Moridin didn't simply kidnap her to defeat Rand!

 

As to Natrin's Barrow, I won't turn this into an ethical discussion of the strike. But looking at it from Rand's personal standards about hurting women, he discarded that last bit of morality when he hit the manor house.

Absolutely, he did. That was the closest he came to going over to the Darkside. But, they bad guys had been working on him for 12 books to get him to that place. Plus, at that point he had been linked to Moridin since the Crown of Swords. He was going evil and running out of hope, and things were spinning out of control as Whizbang has said. His very nature was betraying him in what he needed to accomplish.... the darkness ruined food stores and his chance at peace when he met Tuon. Yet, he had no idea that this was the case. Tragic figure at that point.

Edited by thisguy

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Understanding Rand's and Perrin's actions is different from justifying them. Perrin was downright sadistic in his torture of the Shaido prisoners of war. Perrin just lost it and crossed a dangerous threshold. He admitted that he's willing to make a deal with the DO for Faile. I wonder why Moridin didn't simply kidnap her to defeat Rand!

 

As to Natrin's Barrow, I won't turn this into an ethical discussion of the strike. But looking at it from Rand's personal standards about hurting women, he discarded that last bit of morality when he hit the manor house.

 

How is what Perrin did justified in the text? He's disgusted with himself and discards his axe.

 

And Rand's personal standards in regards to women are a lot more problematic, something the text doesn't recognize.

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2. I find it hard to believe that so many relationships have lasted through the books or have even been formed at all given that the general standard in WOT is to be utterly uncompromising and often downright hostile toward the person one has affection for. Mostly it's the women who are depicted in such an inhospitable way, though the men have occasional moments as well. In particular Siuan, Faile, Egwene and above all Tuon come to mind. Why anyone would consider marrying any of these people I cannot imagine, and at times it's made whole parts of the books difficult to swallow.

 

 

the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. I think of it like a cross between a divine match making service and a love potion shop. What annoys me more is how obviously contrived the arrangements are. the thre ta'veren and the heir to andor, the heir to the seanchan and the current second in line to a borderlands nation. what are the chances of randomly meeting a princess on the road and ending up marrying her. very little is randon in wot. I could give more examples. A lot more.

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First of all, the Seanchean. Honestly, I don't think there's anything likable about those people. Second,, Rand's complete lack of knowledge abnut the happenings in the Black tower. I mean I know he was busy with other things but he should have spared a little time for the tower and checked up on them rather than just accepting what ever Taim told him. After all, even he believed Taim was not completely loyal to him.

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Topic wise -

 

Rand's refusal to kill a woman. At the start it's semi-understandable after a few books it gets mind numbingly boring and tedious

Perrin's rescue of Faile and willingness to destroy the entire world to rescue her. That is just insane. And shows Perrin to be a fool.

Elayne lifting her chin, sure she's noble born. But having been around "common" people she should have learnt that arrogance doesn't make you better, it makes you less of a person

Nyaneve Arrogance for the first six books or so. Believing she is better than anyone else, especially a man. Hating to take orders, because she thinks she should be giving orders all the time.

Faile - breathing

Cadsuane - breathing

Aes Sedai For the most part they see themselves as superior to the rest of the world. not just because of the Power, but because they enjoy manipulation to a huge degree. They make the world dance to the tune THEY want, not what is good for the world. It almost a small form of compulsion, making Rules and people do somethign they don't really wish too, but have too. Wrong on so many levels.

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One word: Nynaeve. Seriously, everything about her until she helps cleanse saidin drives me nuts.

 

Topic wise -

 

Rand's refusal to kill a woman. At the start it's semi-understandable after a few books it gets mind numbingly boring and tedious

Perrin's rescue of Faile and willingness to destroy the entire world to rescue her. That is just insane. And shows Perrin to be a fool.

Elayne lifting her chin, sure she's noble born. But having been around "common" people she should have learnt that arrogance doesn't make you better, it makes you less of a person

Nyaneve Arrogance for the first six books or so. Believing she is better than anyone else, especially a man. Hating to take orders, because she thinks she should be giving orders all the time.

Faile - breathing

Cadsuane - breathing

Aes Sedai For the most part they see themselves as superior to the rest of the world. not just because of the Power, but because they enjoy manipulation to a huge degree. They make the world dance to the tune THEY want, not what is good for the world. It almost a small form of compulsion, making Rules and people do somethign they don't really wish too, but have too. Wrong on so many levels.

 

Yes. The refusal to kill a woman when Lanfear was literally killing him was a bit nuts. He would rather die than destroy one of the Forsaken, taking the world with him in the process.

 

Nothing in this series has made me rage/curse/throw books, not really. Not like A Song of Ice and Fire. But Rand's woeful ignorance of events happening at the Black Tower from book six onward comes close. Basically he helped create the new Dreadlords by not taking an active leadership within the BT.

 

Yes! The entire point of the BT was to have men as a weapon aimed at the DO, but now all those men will be aimed at Rand thanks to Rand ignoring events there. He should have done away with Taim and let Logain take over if he had paid any sort of attention at all.

 

The most infuriating part of these books is waiting until January for the final book.

 

I'm not so mad about that, but I do wonder about the date. Why not release it Jan 15th to coincide with the release date of the first book? Or right before Christmas to take advantage of the holiday season?

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Why not release it Jan 15th to coincide with the release date of the first book? Or right before Christmas to take advantage of the holiday season?

 

They were not going to make the orignal date and for the publishing industry to properly take advantage of the Holiday season it needs to be released during the Sept-Nov timeframe. If they miss that which AMoL did then it is a January release to take advantage of Christmas gift cards and the like.

Edited by Suttree

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

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I agree Meeker, the bargain was a monumental mistake by Elayne and Nynaeve, more so Elayne. She would know of this sort due to being Daughter-Heir. The Sea-folk though are arrogance personified, they believe that they, and they alone should always come out on top in bargains. They won't do anything unless there is a bargain. Which really shows them as narrow-minded, and full of themselves. The whole Bowl of the Winds bargain and what followed makes me want to throw my Kindle at the wall. They got back a priceless ter-angreal, and what do they do belittled and berate because they don't get all they wished for. It would be nice to see them destroyed utterly, I despise the Sea-folk more than the Forsaken.

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

Yeah, this was just really bad writing which never made any kind of sense. No wonder the negotiation itself happened "offscreen", Jordan must've realised there was no way to make it even remotely plausible.

Edited by David Selig

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

Yeah, this was just really bad writing which never made any kind of sense. No wonder the negotiation itself happened "offscreen", Jordan must've realised there was no way to make it even remotely plausible.

 

I always thought this was rather blatant, and made Elayne (with considerable training in diplomacy) and Nynaeve (has practical experience as Wisdom) seem less competent than necessary. Get the losing end of the deal sure... get crushed like that? Meh.

 

My impression is that RJ was less interested in the deal itself, and more with the implications and how the Deal drove the plot. We get to see a lot more about an interesting (albeit annoying) channeling culture, we get one of the best examples of how Aes Sedai are so used to being the biggest dog in the yard and how badly they handle the realization that everyone wont capitulate whenever they wish, they handle the specifics of such odorous conditions (the way they treat instructors is rather unreal, and I just can't see how this wasn't a dealbreaker), and it gave a plausible reason as to why Elayne and Nynaeve needed to stay away from the SAS. and get moving on their own individual plots themselves.

Edited by Damer Sedai

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

Yeah, this was just really bad writing which never made any kind of sense. No wonder the negotiation itself happened "offscreen", Jordan must've realised there was no way to make it even remotely plausible.

 

I always thought this was rather blatant, and made Elayne (with considerable training in diplomacy) and Nynaeve (has practical experience as Wisdom) seem less competent than necessary. Get the losing end of the deal sure... get crushed like that? Meh.

 

My impression is that RJ was less interested in the deal itself, and more with the implications and how the Deal drove the plot. We get to see a lot more about an interesting (albeit annoying) channeling culture, we get one of the best examples of how Aes Sedai are so used to being the biggest dog in the yard and how badly they handle the realization that everyone wont capitulate whenever they wish, they handle the specifics of such odorous conditions (the way they treat instructors is rather unreal, and I just can't see how this wasn't a dealbreaker), and it gave a plausible reason as to why Elayne and Nynaeve needed to stay away from the SAS. and get moving on their own individual plots themselves.

 

I think you're right about the driving the plot along...

 

Yes the deal was disastrous (and infuriating) but the girls didn't know how instructors were treated. If the AS had sent strong willed people along than it would have gone better, Cads would have dealt with it differently, and there was an opportunity for the AS to learn from the WF culture, if they hadn't been brow-beaten so easily. This is one of the things that divides my opinion. Over the first few books the AS are built up to be skillful, manipulative and clever. Both RJ and BS then seem to spend the next 10 books showing they're not. I can't decide if this is just because the success of the other channeling groups highlights all the flaws in the AS, or if showing them to be unskillful, non-manipulative (at least successfully) and seriously un-clever is just a plot device.

 

But the seafolk in general are my infuriating beyond all else topic. The only thing from their culture that I find bearable is their marriage ceremonies - the fact that they acknowledge that at different times in their careers either the man or the woman may be socially superior and counter this with reversing it in private, makes sense. Of course if they were a little more flexible with regards attitudes of rank, it may not be so important.

 

[On a side note - I wonder what would have happened if they'd acknowledged their deal with Mat in with their deal with the girls? It would throw the deal made with Rand into perspective of what happens when you try to bargain with Taveran]

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

Yeah, this was just really bad writing which never made any kind of sense. No wonder the negotiation itself happened "offscreen", Jordan must've realised there was no way to make it even remotely plausible.

 

I always thought this was rather blatant, and made Elayne (with considerable training in diplomacy) and Nynaeve (who has practical experience as Wisdom) seem less competent than necessary. Get the losing end of the deal sure... get crushed like that? Meh.

 

My impression is that RJ was less interested in the deal itself, and more with the implications and how the Deal drove the plot. We get to see a lot more about an interesting (albeit annoying) channeling culture, we get one of the best examples of how Aes Sedai are so used to being the biggest dog in the yard and how badly they handle the realization that everyone wont capitulate whenever they wish, they handle the specifics of such odorous conditions (the way they treat instructors is rather unreal, and I just can't see how this wasn't a dealbreaker), and it gave a plausible reason as to why Elayne and Nynaeve needed to stay away from the SAS. and get moving on their own individual plots themselves.

 

I think you're right about the driving the plot along...

 

Yes the deal was disastrous (and infuriating) but the girls didn't know how instructors were treated. If the AS had sent strong willed people along than it would have gone better, Cads would have dealt with it differently, and there was an opportunity for the AS to learn from the WF culture, if they hadn't been brow-beaten so easily. This is one of the things that divides my opinion. Over the first few books the AS are built up to be skillful, manipulative and clever. Both RJ and BS then seem to spend the next 10 books showing they're not. I can't decide if this is just because the success of the other channeling groups highlights all the flaws in the AS, or if showing them to be unskillful, non-manipulative (at least successfully) and seriously un-clever is just a plot device.

 

But the seafolk in general are my infuriating beyond all else topic. The only thing from their culture that I find bearable is their marriage ceremonies - the fact that they acknowledge that at different times in their careers either the man or the woman may be socially superior and counter this with reversing it in private, makes sense. Of course if they were a little more flexible with regards attitudes of rank, it may not be so important.

 

 

The competency of Aes Sedai has been a very interesting issue throughout WOT - I think RJ was trying to show in the last 10 books to the main characters (the Emonds Field 5, plus Elaine I guess) as well as the reader is that for all their power, training, intelligence, and experience, the Aes Sedai are human just like everyone else. Their major fault as a group is their inflexibility, and their complacency, so when the world changed at breakneck speed they were incapable to changing to circumstance. Sometimes it feels like the execution goes too far one way or the other, but that just may be me.

 

BGF you make a great point on the marriage ceremony... and it would be a good tool for other Randland cultures. I preferred the Windfinders in TSR to the overbearing jackasses we get later on, but maybe they value dictatorial types in the highest ranks of the Athan Miere.

 

 

[On a side note - I wonder what would have happened if they'd acknowledged their deal with Mat in with their deal with the girls? It would throw the deal made with Rand into perspective of what happens when you try to bargain with Taveran]

 

I never thought Elayne or Nynaeve made the most out of Mat's "deal", as it would have blunted the worst of the Sea finder excesses. Mat's deal dictated no endpoint, and Elayne was able to use it after they left the Kin's Farm on the road to Camlyn to enforce her leadership. When Nynaeve was threatened with being forced to teach each day in Caemelyn against her wishes because their leader was a bit of a sadist, She should have said "Sure, we will do that right after your windfinders get back from Shayol Ghul, on their own feet, or on the back of those packmules.... Daughter of the Sands"

Edited by Damer Sedai

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One of the most infuriating moments for me was the bargain for the bowl of the winds. It is not only stupid but makes 0 logical sense.

 

1) Elayne+Nynaeve got a lead on their long lost relic which the Sea Folk did not even know was in the area

2) They are going to help the Sea Folk complete the search

3) The bowl can be used to thwart the Dark One's touch which is hurting the Sea Folk arguabley worse that anyone else as they cannot sail

4) The Sea Folk get to keep the bowl after all is said and done

 

Each one of those things indicates that the Sea Folk should owe something to Elayne and Nynaeve. If there was to be a bargain the topic should have been how big a debt the Sea Folk had. It is not just that they got out bargained it is that there was 0 reason to be bargaining. It still hurts my head every time I try to figure out how anyone thought it was acceptable.

Yeah, this was just really bad writing which never made any kind of sense. No wonder the negotiation itself happened "offscreen", Jordan must've realised there was no way to make it even remotely plausible.

 

I always thought this was rather blatant, and made Elayne (with considerable training in diplomacy) and Nynaeve (who has practical experience as Wisdom) seem less competent than necessary. Get the losing end of the deal sure... get crushed like that? Meh.

 

My impression is that RJ was less interested in the deal itself, and more with the implications and how the Deal drove the plot. We get to see a lot more about an interesting (albeit annoying) channeling culture, we get one of the best examples of how Aes Sedai are so used to being the biggest dog in the yard and how badly they handle the realization that everyone wont capitulate whenever they wish, they handle the specifics of such odorous conditions (the way they treat instructors is rather unreal, and I just can't see how this wasn't a dealbreaker), and it gave a plausible reason as to why Elayne and Nynaeve needed to stay away from the SAS. and get moving on their own individual plots themselves.

 

I think you're right about the driving the plot along...

 

Yes the deal was disastrous (and infuriating) but the girls didn't know how instructors were treated. If the AS had sent strong willed people along than it would have gone better, Cads would have dealt with it differently, and there was an opportunity for the AS to learn from the WF culture, if they hadn't been brow-beaten so easily. This is one of the things that divides my opinion. Over the first few books the AS are built up to be skillful, manipulative and clever. Both RJ and BS then seem to spend the next 10 books showing they're not. I can't decide if this is just because the success of the other channeling groups highlights all the flaws in the AS, or if showing them to be unskillful, non-manipulative (at least successfully) and seriously un-clever is just a plot device.

 

But the seafolk in general are my infuriating beyond all else topic. The only thing from their culture that I find bearable is their marriage ceremonies - the fact that they acknowledge that at different times in their careers either the man or the woman may be socially superior and counter this with reversing it in private, makes sense. Of course if they were a little more flexible with regards attitudes of rank, it may not be so important.

 

 

The competency of Aes Sedai has been a very interesting issue throughout WOT - I think RJ was trying to show in the last 10 books to the main characters (the Emonds Field 5, plus Elaine I guess) as well as the reader is that for all their power, training, intelligence, and experience, the Aes Sedai are human just like everyone else. Their major fault as a group is their inflexibility, and their complacency, so when the world changed at breakneck speed they were incapable to changing to circumstance. Sometimes it feels like the execution goes too far one way or the other, but that just may be me.

 

BGF you make a great point on the marriage ceremony... and it would be a good tool for other Randland cultures. I preferred the Windfinders in TSR to the overbearing jackasses we get later on, but maybe they value dictatorial types in the highest ranks of the Athan Miere.

 

Talk about foreshadowing, that's practically one of the first things Moiraine says to Eg in tEotW (and no, I don't really think it counts as foreshadowing, more a general statement, but still) You (and Moiraine) are right that they're still human, but most of them have a lot more experience than other people, you'd think they'd generally have a bit more backbone, wits about them (especially as they view interfering in politics a divine right).

 

 

[On a side note - I wonder what would have happened if they'd acknowledged their deal with Mat in with their deal with the girls? It would throw the deal made with Rand into perspective of what happens when you try to bargain with Taveran]

 

I never thought Elayne or Nynaeve made the most out of Mat's "deal", as it would have blunted the worst of the Sea finder excesses. Mat's deal dictated no endpoint, and Elayne was able to use it after they left the Kin's Farm on the road to Camlyn to enforce her leadership. When Nynaeve was threatened with being forced to teach each day in Caemelyn against her wishes because their leader was a bit of a sadist, She should have said "Sure, we will do that right after your windfinders get back from Shayol Ghul, on their own feet, or on the back of those packmules.... Daughter of the Sands"

 

I'm actually disappointed that Nyn didn't handle it better, but I guess she was still mid-way through her character arc, would have been interesting to see what would have happened after Nyn met Cads.

 

You're right about the SR Seafolk, their attitude is completely different to any others that we see, I wonder if it's significant, or a change of direction by RJ?

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I never thought Elayne or Nynaeve made the most out of Mat's "deal", as it would have blunted the worst of the Sea finder excesses. Mat's deal dictated no endpoint, and Elayne was able to use it after they left the Kin's Farm on the road to Camlyn to enforce her leadership. When Nynaeve was threatened with being forced to teach each day in Caemelyn against her wishes because their leader was a bit of a sadist, She should have said "Sure, we will do that right after your windfinders get back from Shayol Ghul, on their own feet, or on the back of those packmules.... Daughter of the Sands"

 

I'm actually disappointed that Nyn didn't handle it better, but I guess she was still mid-way through her character arc, would have been interesting to see what would have happened after Nyn met Cads.

 

You're right about the SR Seafolk, their attitude is completely different to any others that we see, I wonder if it's significant, or a change of direction by RJ?

 

Good point about Nynaeve and her development... she is an interesting combination of being strong willed yet filled with insecurites, and the Windfinders and Talaan (hello power creep!) certainly seemed to shake her confidence. I kind of hope Nynaeve gets an opportunity for a Zaida smackdown, but given the ground needed to cover that seems unlikely.

 

I think RJ was just trying to show Sea Finder arrogance and pride getting the better of them when they gotthe upper hand of the deal, and later realized tha Aes Sedai dont actually have a big trump card with which to redress the imbalance. It was just so ham fisted it made them seem as bad as the forsaken at times.

 

And I hadnt remembered Moiraine's comment from early in the EOTW, but its funny how that them has shown up again and again. I agree with you that the Aes Sedai probably should be handling things better. The White Tower Aes Sedai pre reunification are so startlingly petty that it actually made sense that 20% of them were Black Ajah when the truth came out.. even though those numbers seem awfully high.

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Pretty much any scene where Aes Sedai are acting like they know everything about everything. Their arrogance is so frustrating... especially Egwene at the end. As if she knows better than Rand with the memories of LTT. "I AM the Amerlyn Seat." Yes yes we know already. Thank you for telling us again. Why not have Nynaeve tug her braid some more while you are at it.

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When Aiel called wetlanders Oathbreakers.

Actually they were the ones broke oath.

And they thought wetlander weak when they themselves had no courage to face their history.

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1. The gender conflict - the whole "you'll never understand men/women and they're all idiots anyway" thing. So glad to see it peter out in the later books.

 

2. The refusal of certain characters to believe anything they don't want to believe, like Tuon with Mat's stories or Egwene with anything Rand says.

 

3. Aviendha's arrogance and bigotry.

 

4. Perrin's reluctance to man up and accept that he's a leader.

 

5. The damane. I so hate that concept, I find myself wishing horrible fates on Tuon and the sul'dam.

 

6. The Aiel being so hostile to the Cairhienin. How was the general population supposed to know what the damn tree that Laman cut down was and why should they be made to suffer over it forever more?

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As a series of moments:

Alanna forcibly bonding Rand, Two Rivers girls acting like he is a monster and AS are sweethearts, Salidar AS trying to ambush Rand, Tower AS inciting rebellion then kidnapping Rand then torturing Rand and Min. Hits just kept coming and I was very near to posting a video to YouTube crying "Leave Rand alone" (okay, not that close)

 

If I have to choose one of them it's the kidnapping in Cairhien. That one really enraged me. I was never a fan of Aes Sedai but that's the point in the books where I truly started hating the WT.

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The part where the Shadow has armies of insta-teleporting channellers and monsters at its complete disposal, but instead relies on convoluted and highly unreliable scheming to try and kill off the main characters.

 

We're told that a Fade can move between shadows, so why can't Moridin just send three dozen soul-blade-wielding Myrdraal into Mat's and Perrin's camp? Or three dozen Samma N'say? Or three dozen Black Ajah? Or three dozen of Taim's underlings? Or have one or some of the Forsaken go there themselves? How hard can be it for a power-wielding Forsaken to personally kill off one guy with a hammer and slip away to the other side of the world in the blink of an eye? And i don't mean send them to the edge of the camp and fight their way through the guards, but teleport straight into Mat's/Perrin's chambers while they are sleeping in the middle of the night?

Edited by Wool-headed lummox

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The part where the Shadow has armies of insta-teleporting channellers and monsters at its complete disposal, but instead relies on convoluted and highly unreliable scheming to try and kill off the main characters.

 

We're told that a Fade can move between shadows, so why can't Moridin just send three dozen soul-blade-wielding Myrdraal into Mat's and Perrin's camp? Or three dozen Samma N'say? Or three dozen Black Ajah? Or three dozen of Taim's underlings? Or have one or some of the Forsaken go there themselves? How hard can be it for a power-wielding Forsaken to personally kill off one guy with a hammer and slip away to the other side of the world in the blink of an eye? And i don't mean send them to the edge of the camp and fight their way through the guards, but teleport straight into Mat's/Perrin's chambers while they are sleeping in the middle of the night?

Yup. I said that before somewhere else and I agree. For all the tools the Shadow have and their lack of morality, Shadow truly suck at assassination.

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Batcaver, I agree with all your points, espcially #2. I'm on my 4 reread, currently in FoH, and it's an absolute grind reading about the women. Nynaeve in particular gives me a headache with her 'I know best and all men are idiots' mentality.

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