Snakes.Foxes.Mat.Moiraine.Rand - we SHOULD have *18* pieces of info here...DO WE??

[Stevros]

Could one of Moiraine's requests must have been to allow Thom to reach her (how else do we explain him being able to reach her in the ToG) We know Mat tried to reach her and failed, yet Thom succeeded? Not sure if that was him being driven on due to his love for her or if she asked for him to be able to reach her? (Also I doubt she asked to survive I think they just like to drain people as slowly as possible.

Summary of what we know

Mat questions to Aelfinn:

 

 

"Should I go home to my people?"

"You must go to Rhuidean."

 

"Why should I?"

"If you do not go to Rhuidean you will die."

 

"Why?"

"You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

 

This answer is expanded as Mat is not satisfied (not sure why they did this, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Rand's questions to Aelfinn:

 

 

One question was how to cleanse saidin.

The answer was a riddle that Herid Fel says "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy."

 

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

The third question and answer are unknown. The Aelfinn did not mention Rhuidean to him.

 

Moirane's Questions we don't know (I think the idea of surrendering to Rand came more from the three rings visit than the twisted doorway)

 

Mats visit to Eelfinn

 

To have holes in memory filled.

Given extra memory of battles.

 

To be free of Aes Sedai.

Given foxhead medallion.

 

To have way out.

Given ashandarei.

 

Moirane's requests of Eelfinn.

To have bracelet? Others unknown. Payment getting to feed off her ability to channel??

 

Lanfear & Morridin's ?????????

Morridin probably asked to be allowed to kill Lanfear, and get out alive?? Payment?? (Lanfears payment may have been same as Moiraine's??)

 

 

Mat also asked for some things on his second visit. 1. To be allowed to take Moirane, 2. To be given a clear path to the way out from the Eelfinn (forgetting to ask for Aelfinn) payment was his eye.

 

Can't imagine RJ didn't note down what each of them said so hopefully it will be revealed.

[BFG]

Seems I'm in the minority on the survival thing -

 

"I knew from previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them. So I used them for the best"

"What did you ask for?" Mat asked. "Beyond the angreal?"

She smiled. "I shall keep that to myself, for now. You do have my thanks, young Matrim. For my life."

 

and earlier...

 

"It is an angreal", a voice proclaimed. "Strong enough to be nearly sa'angreal. It can be part of her price, should you wish to pay it."

 

So first,Moiraine doesn't say she didn't wish for survival, she said she didn't wish for escape - there is a difference. Additionally, the questions you ask the snakes have to relate to yourself or yoour own future, if something similar holds with the foxes, then the only way Moiraines wishes would be any use outside, is if she survived to make use of them. Maybe the wish wasn't directly 'I want to survive', maybe it was 'I wish for the possibility of escape', but I don't think it would have been a waste of a wish, and she doesn't directly state that she doesn't wish it. So I'm going to leave it on the table, acknowledging that I'm in the minority on this, unless there's a Q& A somewhere that directly refutes it :)

 

Secondly, she doesn't actually agree that she wished for the angreal. The second quote suggests that it was actually included in the price that Mat paid. She was grappling Lanfear when they went into the ring, maybe she won the struggle, she had the advantage of surprise? Unlikely I know, but still.

 

 

 

Additionally Thom and Jain went in and didn't get any wishes, but I wonder if that's because they didn't use the door?

 

 

I read somewhere that one of Lanfears wishes was to be the strongest female Aes Sedai ever, she lost strength because she already was the strongest thus they took her strength until she was only just strongest. Not sure if this is a theory or if there's evidence for it but it seemed like quite a good idea.

 

 

EDIT to add I think Mats third wish (actually made first) the second time was for the entrance they used to be restored and teh way back to be the same or something similar.

[triadruid]

One thing I'll NEVER understand is why Rand never went through the doorway in Rhuidean? He was cooling his heels there for, what, a month?

[The Fisher King]

Joeron Bigelow, to answer one of your questions: I suspect we have not seen many Chosen enter Finnland because any issues touching on the Shadow/The Dark One can have disastrous consequences.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Triadruid - Rand was learning the entire history of the Aiel while Mat was in the Doorway.

 

 

Fish

[triadruid]

Triadruid - Rand was learning the entire history of the Aiel while Mat was in the Doorway.

I'm not talking about when he was made He Who Comes With The Dawn. After he battles Asmo at the end of TSR, he sets up Rhuidean as a habitable city, and they wait there for some indeterminate number of days/weeks waiting for the other clans, before the Shaido take off. Why doesn't he ever go into the doorway while it's sitting right there?

[The Fisher King]

It was burned to a cinder - nothing left of it but a pile of red wax.

 

 

Fish

[driedraspberry]

Triadruid - Rand was learning the entire history of the Aiel while Mat was in the Doorway.

I'm not talking about when he was made He Who Comes With The Dawn. After he battles Asmo at the end of TSR, he sets up Rhuidean as a habitable city, and they wait there for some indeterminate number of days/weeks waiting for the other clans, before the Shaido take off. Why doesn't he ever go into the doorway while it's sitting right there?

 

Mat's trip nearly cost him his life, I'd assume Rand had no desire to try out his own luck. Besides, I doubt Mat made a point to tell what happened inside/being granted three wishes.

 

edit: Was it destroyed? It's a blank for me. I thought the darkfriend peddler people had to wrap up the doorway and stick it into their wagon, but I could be remembering wrong.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Triadruid - Rand was learning the entire history of the Aiel while Mat was in the Doorway.

I'm not talking about when he was made He Who Comes With The Dawn. After he battles Asmo at the end of TSR, he sets up Rhuidean as a habitable city, and they wait there for some indeterminate number of days/weeks waiting for the other clans, before the Shaido take off. Why doesn't he ever go into the doorway while it's sitting right there?

 

Because the one thing he knows about it is they hung Mat and threw him out, leaving him to die. Mat also says they don't answer questions and just try to kill you.

 

Obviously, we know Mat is wrong, as he learns himself later. However, in Rand's position, it wouldn't be very attractive. He doesn't know that they grant gifts. (Mat doesn't tell him about those at the time)

[Sid]

Moiraine kept the doorway watched closely. I assume Rand had no desire to go in there after Mat was in such bad shape when he found him.

 

 

@ Sharaman

Moiraine said that Lanfear was granted her requests, but I'm almost positive that Moridin did not get requests, since the doorway was destroyed. He may have gotten answers to three questions had he used the doorway in Tear. It wouldn't surprise me if he used it to find Lanfear and then destroyed it after he left. If he used the Tower of Ghenjei, he would have no answers or requests, since there's apparently no agreement for people that use that entrance (Mat, Thom, and Jain had none).

[triadruid]

It was burned to a cinder - nothing left of it but a pile of red wax.

That was at the end of TFoH (in Cairhien), not the beginning.

 

Moiraine kept the doorway watched closely. I assume Rand had no desire to go in there after Mat was in such bad shape when he found him.

Yes, and we all know how much Rand was listening to Moiraine at that point... I could maybe believe he decides not to go after seeing Mat hung, but he never even THINKS about it, which is odd.

[Sid]

“The folk-on the other side - of that - twisted doorway.” Swallowing painfully, Mat sat up and took a deep unsteady breath. “There’s one here, too, Rand.” He still sounded as if his throat had been rasped.

 

“You could go through it? Did they answer questions?” That could be useful. He desperately needed more answers. A thousand questions, and too few answers.

 

“No answers,” Mat said huskily. “They cheat. And they tried to kill me.” He picked up the medallion, a silver foxhead that almost filled his palm, and after a moment stuffed it into his pocket with a grimace. “I got something out of them, at least.” Pulling the strange spear to him, he ran his fingers along the black shaft.

 

He did think about it, but Mat put him off. He probably would have gone no matter what had Mat said they answered questions, but he said they didn't, and tried to kill him besides.

 

Two of the men were trying to move what appeared to be an oddly twisted redstone doorframe; the corners did not meet properly, and the eye did not want to follow the straight pieces. It stayed upright, turning freely but refusing to tip over however they manhandled it. Then one slipped and fell, through the doorway up to his waist. Rand tensed. For a moment, the fellow seemed not to exist above the waist; his legs kicked wildly in panic. Until Lan, a tall man in drab shades of green, strode over and hauled him out again by his belt. Lan was Moiraine's Warder, bonded to her in some way Rand did not understand, and a hard man who moved like the Aiel, like a hunting wolf; the Sword at his hip did not seem part of him, it was part of him. He dropped the workman on the paving stones on the seat of his breeches and left him there; the fellow's terrified cries rose thinly to Rand, and his companion looked ready to run. Several of Kadere's men who had been close enough to see were looking at one another and at the mountains around the city, plainly assessing their chances.

---------------------

He more than suspected the use of the twisted doorframe-a doorway to another world-but for the rest, he had no idea. no one did. That was why Moiraine worked so hard, to have as many as she could carted to the Tower for study. It was possible that even the Tower did not contain as many objects of the Power as lay about this square, though supposedly the Tower held the largest collection in the world. Even there, the Tower only knew the uses of some.

 

What was in the wagons or tossed about on the pavement did not interest Rand; he had already taken what he needed from down there. Had already taken more than he wanted, in some ways.

He had the access keys to the Choedan Kal. He didn't feel it was necessary to risk death or whatever the worker experienced in there for something he didn't absolutely need.

[Thrasymachus]

Moiraine said that Lanfear was granted her requests, but I'm almost positive that Moridin did not get requests, since the doorway was destroyed.

That doesn't matter. Mat made his requests and won back Moiraine and their escape (partly) long after the doorway was destroyed.

[Amandera]

Moridin is not the most diplomatic person and the Eelfinn are not terribly hard to kill for a channeler. Whatever exchange passed between Eelfinn and Moridin was probably along these lines:

- GTFO of my way and in return I don't set your asses on fire.

- Done!

- Done!

- Done!

 

Other than this, I don't see Moridin asking for anything from the foxes.

[BFG]

Moiraine said that Lanfear was granted her requests, but I'm almost positive that Moridin did not get requests, since the doorway was destroyed.

That doesn't matter. Mat made his requests and won back Moiraine and their escape (partly) long after the doorway was destroyed.

 

I think that's because they were able to make it to the Chamber - if you enter through the doors then there's an agreement that stops the snakes/foxes from killing you straight away. If you don't enter by the doors then there's no such agreement in place. That's why they needed the fire, iron and music to keep the snakes/foxes away, and without Matts luck they would never have made it to the chamber where they could make that bargain. Once they made it to the chamber the price Mat paid made it worth the cost of the wishes.

[Sharaman]

@Sid

If you make it to the Hall of Bargains, you get your requests, regardless of how you enter. Mat got his set in ToM precisely that way without entering va the destroyed Door

We don't know how Moridin entered Finnland (he may have destroyed the Tear door after exiting by it) but we do know he got to the HoBargains and he made his requests.

Moiraine confirmed that from her encounter with him in the HoB when he apparently told the Finns he wanted the other woman.

[Sid]

OK, I was wrong about Moridin not getting requests, after re-reading the chapters again. What I was thinking was that he was not assured those requests because the doorway that assured you of being taken to the Chamber of Bonds unmolested, the entrance where the agreement held, was destroyed. Once he did make it to the Chamber he was able to bargain with them, and being much more knowledgeable of these matters than Mat (and perhaps his ability to destroy them fairly easily) gave him leverage so he didn't need Mat's ridiculous luck to make it out of there again. It would be very interesting to hear more about his trip there.

[The Fisher King]

Chamber of Bonds.

 

 

Fish

[Mulk]

I wonder if there is a kind of side agreement between the Finns and the Shadow. I mean, why is it that questions touching the Shadow are punished severely? How did Moridin (or whomever) get in and get back out with (or without, depending) Lanfear without a massive fight? Just something I've wondered.

[The Fisher King]

Hes Nae'blis.

 

 

Fish

[thisguy]

I wonder if there is a kind of side agreement between the Finns and the Shadow. I mean, why is it that questions touching the Shadow are punished severely? How did Moridin (or whomever) get in and get back out with (or without, depending) Lanfear without a massive fight? Just something I've wondered.

 

Could be wrong, but figure that the Ael/Eelfinn don't want anything touching the shadow mentioned as it might give the DO power over them in some way. Someone like Moridmael pops up wielding the TP and they might just give in to what he wants without much of a fight.

[Neophyte]

Yes, punishing someone severely requires having power over them. The Sindholese? Sindholians? Sindolites? Sindholers? might have wanted to do bad things to Moridin and simply been unable to.

[thisguy]

Yes, punishing someone severely requires having power over them. The Sindholese? Sindholians? Sindolites? Sindholers? might have wanted to do bad things to Moridin and simply been unable to.

I wonder if that allowed Moridin to extort items of power from them. He had none and then by book 10-11 he had plenty.

[Mulk]

see that's one of the problems I have with the whole series. If FInnland really is another place entirely, why is the One Power reachable there?

 

And if it really was that easy to just kill Finns to be let free, any channeler could do it. Just weave a shield around yourself to prevent physical trauma and go to town on them until enough die that they say we give up. Any Aes Sedai or Asha'man could rip them apart, it wouldn't require being an almighty forsaken with the true power to do that.

[Neophyte]

see that's one of the problems I have with the whole series. If FInnland really is another place entirely, why is the One Power reachable there?

 

And if it really was that easy to just kill Finns to be let free, any channeler could do it. Just weave a shield around yourself to prevent physical trauma and go to town on them until enough die that they say we give up. Any Aes Sedai or Asha'man could rip them apart, it wouldn't require being an almighty forsaken with the true power to do that.

 

Finnland is another world - another dimension, probably, given its physics - but it is still within the Pattern, and Time is powered by the True Source everywhere.

 

There are limits to what ordinary channelers could do, especially given that the Finns have a nice stockpile of ter'angreal. In addition, the warped physics of Sindhol could have drastic effects on the channelers' efficacy. Moridin is exceptional not only in his strength but in his skill - just because he can probably threaten the Finns doesn't mean it is "easy" to do it. Also, I doubt it came to an actual confrontation between them - Moridin came and got what he wanted, and likely paid them a price - not because he was scared, but because it was probably just easier that way, and he doesn't really care about giving something up, since he's planning on ending the Pattern soon anyway.