Have we seen the end of Manetheran? [Please NO spoilers from the just released prologue]

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

My question posed to all of you is this, Have we seen the end of Manetheran?

 

In the middle of ToM we see Perrin speaking with Elayne, and he agrees to put down the flag of Manetheran once and for all. To me this was the most disappointing scene in the entire series. Hands down.

 

Throughout the books Manetheran is referenced constantly. There is always someone tying one of our three Taveren to it. It was always my hope that Perrin with his flags of Manetheran, and Mat with his Band of the Red Hand would revive it in the end. But now it looks like that will not happen. Every book makes references to it, its probably the most stable idea/country/reminder of the past, that the WoT has ever seen.

 

But do you think it's over now, or will we see another revival of it?

[Suttree]

There are neither beginnings nor endings... ;)

[David Selig]

I've always thought it was a silly idea which was bound to fail. It was 2000 freaking years ago when Manetheren was destroyed, let the past be the past. Those living in Two Rivers didn't even know about Manetheren until Moiraine told them, it would be way implausible if a few years later then resurrect it somehow.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Oops I just realize I put this in the wrong forum. I meant to put it in the aMol spoilers discussion. Is there a way to move it or is it okay here?

[Durinax]

I think it will rear its head again, with whats happening in Caemlyn, Andor could easily fall apart, particularily if Dyelin dies (too many nobles support Elayne only because of her). I could see the forces of light being forces back, with Perrins host being pushed back into the TR's (a parallel between the Story of Manetheren, and VoG) where the resurgence of the forces of light begin

[Durinax]

I've always thought it was a silly idea which was bound to fail. It was 2000 freaking years ago when Manetheren was destroyed, let the past be the past. Those living in Two Rivers didn't even know about Manetheren until Moiraine told them, it would be way implausible if a few years later then resurrect it somehow.

it is amazing what an idea can do to a people, even if it was thousands of years ago.

[Luckers]

The Wheel doesn't turn backwards. I believe Manetheren and Malkier are both gone, though I do suspect that a new Kingdom is forming that will include Andor west Whitebridge, and that a new Kingdom will form in north under Lan, or his child, but that won't be Malkier or Manetheren.

 

Oops I just realize I put this in the wrong forum. I meant to put it in the aMol spoilers discussion. Is there a way to move it or is it okay here?

 

No, you put it there. But you requested thered be no spoilers, so I moved it here.

[Orderofolde]

Kind of difficult as Perrin gave over the Banner to General Tylee of the Seanchan in exchange for her help. "If" Caemlyn should fall from the impending attack, with Perrin and Rand granted the Two Rivers, it might be possible for Ghealdan to merge and for Baerlon and other areas such as Whitebridge, etc to fold into a new kingdom. We are at the Last battle, food's all but gone, everything and everyone is or will soon be dying. What remnant survives won't care about boundaries. Cities fall and new ones rise. As Luckers said, we're moving forward not backwards, but someday Manatheren will rise again thought likely as the Heroes of the Horn bear many names, it too will be called something else, and might have a different sigil than the red eagle.

[Darksmoon]

I think there will continue to be references to it but the nation is long gone.

[Agitel]

Aviendha's visions in TOM seem to hint at the Two Rivers eventually becoming a nation in its own right anyway, or at least important enough that its actions are referred to independently from Andor. They obviously don't take on the Manetheren moniker, but the Two Rivers isn't going to remain a backwater.

[avernite]

Manetheren had the most epic last stand ever. Maybe the Malkieri can come close in AMoL, but beat it? And, as we all know, you should quit at your best. Resurrect Manetheren, and it will take another equally epic stand for it to be remembered. Manetheren as it is could pass into myth for at least one if not two ages; a manetheren that just whimpers out, is conquered by the next Hawkwing etc... will be lucky to be remembered a hundred years later.

 

That said, a Two Rivers that seizes the crossing at Whitebridge (and everything west of it) could well be a realm of its own, and might well become one.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

To add to this discussion, were the Two Rivers folk following the Wolf Head Banner or the Red Eagle of Manetheran? I could never figure out which one they supported more.

[Agitel]

To add to this discussion, were the Two Rivers folk following the Wolf Head Banner or the Red Eagle of Manetheran? I could never figure out which one they supported more.

 

I'm not sure if there was a more. The Wolf Head Banner was Perrin's personal sigil, while the Red Eagle was, in a way, the symbol of their nation (or at least identity).

[nolirion]

It is a part of the two river Identity , I don't think they will claim the land who once belonged to Manetheren , but the surely will take up many of the symbolic and of the characteristic of the Nation .

It is comparable to what happened to Hawking empire , even now the legitimacy of nobility is their blood link to some general or appointed governor of Hawking empire or hawking himself .

[James Michael Parsons]

The question is, "Why did Moiraine and Lan talk about Manetheren so much?" It seems as though Moiraine wanted Perrin, Mat and Rand to revive Manetheren. Why? Were they just giving confidence to the the Two Rivers boys? Or did Moiraine have a foretelling stating that Manetheren would be revived?

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

The question is, "Why did Moiraine and Lan talk about Manetheren so much?" It seems as though Moiraine wanted Perrin, Mat and Rand to revive Manetheren. Why? Were they just giving confidence to the the Two Rivers boys? Or did Moiraine have a foretelling stating that Manetheren would be revived?

If it was a foretelling we would have heard about it by now. But that is a good question. It could just be because of Mat's "old blood sings" stuff.

[David Selig]

Moiraine needed a cool story to distract and dissuade the angry mob. As for Lan, the Manetheren stories are probably all he knows about this backwater region, and since his own country suffered a similar fate, those stories probably made a big impression on him when he first heard them.

[spoke]

My question posed to all of you is this, Have we seen the end of Manetheran?

 

In the middle of ToM we see Perrin speaking with Elayne, and he agrees to put down the flag of Manetheran once and for all. To me this was the most disappointing scene in the entire series. Hands down.

 

Throughout the books Manetheran is referenced constantly. There is always someone tying one of our three Taveren to it. It was always my hope that Perrin with his flags of Manetheran, and Mat with his Band of the Red Hand would revive it in the end. But now it looks like that will not happen. Every book makes references to it, its probably the most stable idea/country/reminder of the past, that the WoT has ever seen.

 

But do you think it's over now, or will we see another revival of it?

Kind of difficult as Perrin gave over the Banner to General Tylee of the Seanchan in exchange for her help. "If" Caemlyn should fall from the impending attack, with Perrin and Rand granted the Two Rivers, it might be possible for Ghealdan to merge and for Baerlon and other areas such as Whitebridge, etc to fold into a new kingdom. We are at the Last battle, food's all but gone, everything and everyone is or will soon be dying. What remnant survives won't care about boundaries. Cities fall and new ones rise. As Luckers said, we're moving forward not backwards, but someday Manatheren will rise again thought likely as the Heroes of the Horn bear many names, it too will be called something else, and might have a different sigil than the red eagle.

 

Hey both of you need to go read that passage again. Perrin offered to give over Manatheren to Tylee of the Seanchan, but Tylee refused. He then took his flags back and pulled out Suroth's letter (the one stolen from Masema). Tylee then agreed to help. So the Manatheren flag and claim to Seanchan were never agreed upon as part of the deal. Manatheren still lives.

[David Selig]

I don't have KoD at hand, but this passage from TGS seems pretty clear to me:

“Did you mean what you said about giving up on Manetheren?”

“Aye,” Perrin said. “That banner has been nothing but trouble since it first came out. The Seanchan, and everyone else, might as well know. I’m no king.”

[jsbrads]

David Selig: he since reversed on that "I am no king"

Perrin is leige lord to ghealdan so essentially manetheren reconsituted minus Andor but include two rivers

two rivers itself probably won't become a center cause it is too far from the center , only 1 way in and out

 

that said, he is now essentially a Lord of Andor

most of Elayne's other Lords will support her now that she won, only the few bad lords and ladies will turn on her if they have an opportunity

 

ultimately most of our discussions will never be vindicated or disproven, the series is over, the last book can only describe so much... its been lovely, I'll be around for a while after the last book drops, but shortly after... I expect less and less participation on this site and that is a sad prediction u can take to the bank

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

David Selig: he since reversed on that "I am no king"

Perrin is leige lord to ghealdan so essentially manetheren reconsituted minus Andor but include two rivers

two rivers itself probably won't become a center cause it is too far from the center , only 1 way in and out

 

that said, he is now essentially a Lord of Andor

most of Elayne's other Lords will support her now that she won, only the few bad lords and ladies will turn on her if they have an opportunity

 

ultimately most of our discussions will never be vindicated or disproven, the series is over, the last book can only describe so much... its been lovely, I'll be around for a while after the last book drops, but shortly after... I expect less and less participation on this site and that is a sad prediction u can take to the bank

Yup thats when we all switch to fan fiction... Or just make up stuff in our minds.

[garfoofafuffel]

I have a feeling the banners of Manetheren will be at the last battle to strike fear into the hearts of any creatures of the Shadow who recognize it enough to fear it.

 

As to the nation itself, I think it fulfilled its destiny not at the last stand, but by bearing the fruits that would become Mat, Perrin, and Rand.

[78WARLOCK]

@garfoofafuffel I agree with you on that. The banners will fly at the last battle, as a rallying banner for the Two Rivers people, but the Red Eagle will be hung in Master al' Veres inn as a rememberance. Perrins wolfhead banner will be the "new" flag of the Two Rivers.

[DaoineSidhe]

I don't think that Manetheren will come back per se, but I think it is very telling that the alliance between the Two Rivers and Andor is coined the "Griffin Alliance" in Aviendha's future dream state. Eagle and Lion make Griffin... Hrmm....

[mike hunt's here]

I can't believe Peter Griffin came from an eagle and a lion. More Cow and Pig.

 

Are we allowed to spoil here? If you read chapter one, notice the lack of mention of the LB impacting a certain place...