I'm not a psychiatrist but...

[Alric]

I think the majority of WoT characters are in need of therapy. So I guess what I'm asking is..

 

1) Do you think RJ portrayed people realistically considering their behavior, motivations, and apparent mental health?

 

2) If you were to make a (horribly unqualified) diagnosis of any characters, what would it be?

 

I have no idea what to expect from this thread, I guess both serious discussion and jokes are welcome. And I hope it can stay clear of the like/dislike debate and instead deal with how realistically these characters are portrayed. I know the topic of mental health is serious stuff, but I have given a lot of thought to it while reading so I would hope to see an interesting discussion on it.

[Alric]

PTSD: Egwene (after Seanchan capture in tGH), Rand (the box, claustrophobia), Teslyn, most uncollared damane.

 

Surprisingly healthy despite harsh treatment: Faile, Siuan, Alivia.

 

Most of the Forsaken probably have serious personality disorders (popularly called sociopath/psychopath etc) but are obviously still highly functional. I'm also including Sevanna and Valda here.

 

Then there are the people who are completely and utterly broken in various ways, I'm guessing Galina (at least as of KoD where I'm now), Aram, and sadly too many damane).

[Durinax]

egwene and rand where very will written with their psychosis. Egwene though her ToM section just forgot that she had that psychosis, or just dropped it immediately.

[thisguy]

Probably most of the characters in a battle where the power was blowing up around them have ptsd. HAHA!!!

 

Most of the forsaken and dfs probably range between Borderline Personality Disorder - Sociopath. As far as I know, psychopath isn't a psychiatric designation anymore. If it was, all of the forsaken would be psychopaths.

 

But, many of the characters have some form of OCD and sometimes violent forms. Nyna (who I like) I think has OCD. It manifests in a violent way a couple of times - example is when Lan comes back into her life and fishes her out of the ocean and then in the ship's cabin she uses the power to pull his head back and hold it in a painful position.

 

Many of the women come off as control freaks. Someone else on this forum said that the books are riddled with sado-masochism, almost done with the 8th book in my reread and I can't disagree.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

All Aes Sedai except for Verin, Siuan (after stilling), Nynaeve, Moiraine(after ToG), and maybe Cadsuane(could go either way) have some sort of a superiority complex.

[sleepinghour]

1) Do you think RJ portrayed people realistically considering their behavior, motivations, and apparent mental health?

 

Sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't.

 

2) If you were to make a (horribly unqualified) diagnosis of any characters, what would it be?

 

Lanfear: Narcissistic personality disorder.

Semirhage: Sadistic personality disorder.

Graendal: Hypersexuality.

Mat: Stockholm syndrome.

Lan: Survivor's guilt, Depression.

Rand: Schizophrenia, Claustrophobia, PTSD.

Nynaeve: Body-focused repetitive behavior.

Egwene: PTSD, God complex.

Logain: Messiah complex.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Logain: Messiah complex.

Wouldn't it be Masema with the Messiah complex? Logain just doesnt vibe of it.

 

Also who does Mat have Stockholm Syndrome with?

[Alric]

^ I'm guessing Tylin. Although that is debatable, she was attractive and the Mat I know probably wouldn't have hesitated for a second in different circumstances... so it wasn't _only_ sympathizing with the hostage taker...

 

I think we can safely add Myrelle to the Hypersexuality category.

 

Some very interesting reading on wikipedia there sleepinghour, thanks!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Logain: Messiah complex.

Wouldn't it be Masema with the Messiah complex? Logain just doesnt vibe of it.

 

Nar, he just declared himself saviour of the world as a joke. And took it upon himself to save the Black Tower from Taim's evil clutches on a whim.

 

The guy wants glory. I like him, but he fancies himself a hero.

[MasterAblar]

Nynaeve: Body-focused repetitive behavior.

Egwene: PTSD, God complex.

Logain: Messiah complex.

 

These three made me laugh, especially Nyneave.

[master]

These three made me laugh, especially Nyneave

 

 

does nyneave fit? from the main article on hair pulling, it seems you gave to pull the hair out, not just pull it in frustration.

[Durinax]

These three made me laugh, especially Nyneave

 

 

does nyneave fit? from the main article on hair pulling, it seems you gave to pull the hair out, not just pull it in frustration.

she almost always does it thoguh, basically every 3 paragraphs we see her in haha

[driedraspberry]

 

Lanfear: Narcissistic personality disorder.

Semirhage: Sadistic personality disorder.

Graendal: Hypersexuality.

Mat: Stockholm syndrome.

Lan: Survivor's guilt, Depression.

Rand: Schizophrenia, Claustrophobia, PTSD.

Nynaeve: Body-focused repetitive behavior.

Egwene: PTSD, God complex.

Logain: Messiah complex.

 

Accurate. Laughing hard at the last few. Ha.

 

I'd add PTSD for Mat (from those memories). And what about Perrin? Dependent Personality Disorder?

[Durinax]

Lanfear: Narcissistic personality disorder.

Semirhage: Sadistic personality disorder.

Graendal: Hypersexuality.

Mat: Stockholm syndrome.

Lan: Survivor's guilt, Depression.

Rand: Schizophrenia, Claustrophobia, PTSD.

Nynaeve: Body-focused repetitive behavior.

Egwene: PTSD, God complex.

Logain: Messiah complex.

 

Accurate. Laughing hard at the last few. Ha.

 

I'd add PTSD for Mat (from those memories). And what about Perrin? Dependent Personality Disorder?

Perrin has more of a PTSD thing too, from his family being massacred, which results in him being more reliant and protective of the family he has left (Faile)

[Shig]

Using the DSM-IV, and going of the layout sleepinghour put down for us, I'd definitely agree with NPD for Lanfear and SPD for Semirhage. For Graendal maybe add in Histrionic Personality Disorder.

 

Mat, definitely not Stockholm Syndrome, however it would apply to nearly all 'broken' damane.

 

Rand's diagnosis is pretty accurate, he may suffer from what we consider Dissociative Identity Disorder, better known as Multiple Personality Disorder. I say this because at times what we can consider the 'Lews Therin' entity will take control of Rand's body. His diagnosis of Schizophrenia is dependent on whether or not you believe that DID is actually a condition, or just severe Schizophrenia.

 

Nyn, Egwene and Logain...doubt they could be diagnosed with any actually mental health issues. Nyn's annoying 'ticks' are primarily a coping mechanism, used to stop her from snapping at someone prematurely. Egwene, i think she just feels she knows best...but i can name a bunch of people i know like that...they're jerks but not suffering from mental health issues. Furthermore, if you compare her supposed PTSD to Rand's, he suffers from flashbacks, dreaming about the issue, and has some waking experiences, like flashing back to feeling physically trapped in the box. If Egwene has PTSD, it's pretty minor.

 

As a side note, fantastic idea for a topic and discussion.

[FarShainMael]

Asperger's Syndrome isn't a psychiatric problem exactly (though it can make you become depressed and anxious). It's more a problem of perception, a sort of body-language dyslexia if you will. That said, I reckon Herid Fel's an Aspie.

[LoLPoR]

Could you clarify Mat's Stockholm Syndrome for me?

[master]

Could you clarify Mat's Stockholm Syndrome for me?

 

no idea. if i had to guess it would probably be queen whatsername [tylin?] raping him every few hours and him still liking her.

[thisguy]

Could you clarify Mat's Stockholm Syndrome for me?

 

no idea. if i had to guess it would probably be queen whatsername [tylin?] raping him every few hours and him still liking her.

 

You just made me crack up, and this post was the perfect one to end the day with. Thanks, man.

[TyphoonBlade]

Could you clarify Mat's Stockholm Syndrome for me?

 

no idea. if i had to guess it would probably be queen whatsername [tylin?] raping him every few hours and him still liking her.

 

 

ACoS Chapter 28

 

Smiling, She advanced across the red and green floor tiles, layered blue and white silk petticoats swishing, large dark eyes fixed on him. He had no desire at all to look at the marriage knife nestled in her generous clevage.Or the larger, gemstudded dagger thrust behind an equally gemstudded belt. He backed away."

 

Doesn't sound very happy to me, then there's....

 

ACoS Chapter 28

 

"She laid a hand flat on his chest, backheeled him into a high backed chair, and plumped herself down on his lap. Between her and the chairarms, he was trapped. Oh, he could have picked her up and set her on her feet quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as exceptable to her as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise..."

 

Still isn't enjoying himself...

 

Still ACoS Ch. 28

 

"He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses,he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown and she chortled . He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that."

 

He still didn't want anything to do with her....and then in Winters Heart

 

WH Ch. 31

 

" 'I am going to miss you,' he said quietly as he pushed her beneath the edge of the bed. To his suprise, he realized that he really would.Light!"

 

Seems like Stockholm's to me, he's put in a situation where he can't do what he wants and is basically being held in Ebou Dar. As time goes by he starts to identify with Tylin and acccept this relationship as part of his life, and manages to suprise himself saying he'll miss her because he knows there's no rational reason for feeling that.

[Shig]

I still don't understand why people think he was raped...if he had been truly unwilling, for example if he had been screaming stop or crying in a corner in disgust at tylin, cutting himself because of self loathing and what not, then hell yeh, id be on the rape train as well. Instead, his comments were along the lines of 'You can't do this' and 'Im the one who does the chasing' etc etc stuff along those lines. He was uncomfortable with the situation, because in his mine, he's meant to be the hound dog, instead she's the cougar cracking on to the charming younger fellar.

 

Mat is a young guy, pretty good with women, decently attractive(from his description and women's responses to him) who was still pretty much limited by his stuffy Two Rivers upbringing, where men are chivalrous and premarital 'relations' in any form are prohibited. He was uncomfortable in a new situation, in which the tables were turned. We even see other examples of his inexperience with women hitting on him, i'm pretty sure some of the maids or cooks or something in ebou dar comment on his nice ass, and he was extremely uncomfortable in that foreign situation as well.

 

In regards to the Stockholm Syndrome part, lets compare it to the hopefully non-fiction examples wikipedia gives us,

• Mary McElroy was kidnapped and held for ransom in 1933 and released by her captors unharmed. When three of her four captors were apprehended and given maximum sentences (including one death sentence), McElroy defended them. According to reports, she suffered from feelings of guilt concerning the case which compromised her mental and physical health. She took her own life in 1940.
  

• Patty Hearst was kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army in 1974. After two months in captivity, she actively took part in a robbery they were orchestrating. Her unsuccessful legal defense claimed that she suffered from Stockholm Syndrome and was coerced into aiding the SLA. She was convicted and imprisoned for her actions in the robbery, though her sentence was commuted in February 1979 by President Jimmy Carter, and she received a Presidential pardon from President Bill Clinton on January 20, 2001 (among his last official acts before leaving office).
  

 

The message i'd like to get through is:

 

1) Seriously think about it, if when Tylin had had mat at knife point the first time, if he had started crying, and saying 'please i can't do this with you' she would have stopped.

 

2) Mat realizing he actually liked tylin( she probably opened him up to really dealing with women, not just cracking onto them at bars, and he very likely realized he liked her personality) does not mean he has stockholm syndrome.

[Assassoid]

IMO from where Aram came from, the simple way of the leaf , him having left by the act of weilding a blade and leaving the w.o.t.l.is much like an excommunicated Amish. Some of them do well and some get into trouble. Aram let that zelout Maseema "the prophet" get to him... I don't know what you call that in psychological terms I think despite being of the light , and idolizing Perrin, Aram was just destined to be a follower to his death. Maseema seemed to me to be taveren-like if there is such a concept.

[Thrasymachus]

If you seriously thinks what Tylin did to Mat wasn't rape, flip the genders and go re-read their first sex-scene, where Tylin pulls a freaking knife on him and ends up cutting his clothes off, then tell me that if a man did that to a woman, it wouldn't be rape. It was rape, plain and simple. Forcing someone to have sex with you at knife-point is rape, and it doesn't matter how much you think the other person secretly wants it or is cool with it, especially when the victim is quite clear in trying to get away and not do that thing.

[Suttree]

I still don't understand why people think he was raped...if he had been truly unwilling, for example if he had been screaming stop or crying in a corner in disgust at tylin, cutting himself because of self loathing and what not, then hell yeh, id be on the rape train as well. Instead, his comments were along the lines of 'You can't do this' and 'Im the one who does the chasing' etc etc stuff along those lines. He was uncomfortable with the situation, because in his mine, he's meant to be the hound dog, instead she's the cougar cracking on to the charming younger fellar.

 

This is unequivicolly false. People think it was rape because that is exactly what it was. First off RJ said it was rape. Second...

 

ACoS

 

It was too much. The woman hounded him, tried to starve him; now she locked them in together like... like he did not know what. Lambkin! Those bloody dice were bouncing around in his skull. Besides, he had important business to see to. The dice had never had anything to do with finding something, but... He reached her in two long strides, seized her arm, and began fumbling in her belt for the keys. "I don’t have bloody time for -" His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.

 

"Remove your hand," she said coldly. He managed to look down his nose at her face. She was not smiling now. He let go of her arm carefully. She did not lessen the pressure of her blade, though. She shook her head. "Tsk, tsk. I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you wish to play roughly... Hands at your sides. Move." The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backward on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.

 

"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.It was too much.

 

He tried to leave/physically move her and she forced him to have sex at knife point so no she wouldn't have "stopped" as you say. Contrary to what you claim above he tried to leave and was held against his will. There is no way you can define this as anything esle besides rape.

[TyphoonBlade]

I still don't understand why people think he was raped...if he had been truly unwilling, for example if he had been screaming stop or crying in a corner in disgust at tylin, cutting himself because of self loathing and what not, then hell yeh, id be on the rape train as well. Instead, his comments were along the lines of 'You can't do this' and 'Im the one who does the chasing' etc etc stuff along those lines. He was uncomfortable with the situation, because in his mine, he's meant to be the hound dog, instead she's the cougar cracking on to the charming younger fellar.

 

Mat is a young guy, pretty good with women, decently attractive(from his description and women's responses to him) who was still pretty much limited by his stuffy Two Rivers upbringing, where men are chivalrous and premarital 'relations' in any form are prohibited. He was uncomfortable in a new situation, in which the tables were turned. We even see other examples of his inexperience with women hitting on him, i'm pretty sure some of the maids or cooks or something in ebou dar comment on his nice ass, and he was extremely uncomfortable in that foreign situation as well.

 

In regards to the Stockholm Syndrome part, lets compare it to the hopefully non-fiction examples wikipedia gives us,

• Mary McElroy was kidnapped and held for ransom in 1933 and released by her captors unharmed. When three of her four captors were apprehended and given maximum sentences (including one death sentence), McElroy defended them. According to reports, she suffered from feelings of guilt concerning the case which compromised her mental and physical health. She took her own life in 1940.
  

• Patty Hearst was kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army in 1974. After two months in captivity, she actively took part in a robbery they were orchestrating. Her unsuccessful legal defense claimed that she suffered from Stockholm Syndrome and was coerced into aiding the SLA. She was convicted and imprisoned for her actions in the robbery, though her sentence was commuted in February 1979 by President Jimmy Carter, and she received a Presidential pardon from President Bill Clinton on January 20, 2001 (among his last official acts before leaving office).
  

 

The message i'd like to get through is:

 

1) Seriously think about it, if when Tylin had had mat at knife point the first time, if he had started crying, and saying 'please i can't do this with you' she would have stopped.

 

2) Mat realizing he actually liked tylin( she probably opened him up to really dealing with women, not just cracking onto them at bars, and he very likely realized he liked her personality) does not mean he has stockholm syndrome.

 

If you can't see this from Mat's perspective take a minute to put yourself in Tylin's shoes. You have someone at knife point that you're leading toward your bedroom and more to the point your bed.They say "what are you doing?" and you don't answer. You know they can't attack you because you're a king/queen. In addition to that you could kill that person and it would be justified until proven otherwise (but since you're a king/queen who's going to question you).

 

What would you call what you just did to that person?

 

So because Mat didn't breakdown crying he can't be upset about what happened? Absence of tears doesn't equal absence of emotion, anger, sadness, or pain.