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bsmnt23

The Streak in the Sky

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Hmm. So she controlled them? Can animals be compelled?

 

Its unsure if she brought them, but its pretty much a given she was controlling them... having seen grolm in the books we can be pretty sure she wouldn't have been able to hold them off with a stick.

 

We have seen animals be controlled/compelled before in the series... ravens moving in murder packs hunting perrin/egwene, ravens and rats used as spys, the dove(?) grendal used, the insects that the blue ajah can control. Lots of little things that say, yes it's possible to control animals using the one power.

 

As to whether or not these grolm were native of this mirror or she brought them is unclear though, they had to come from somewhere and this mirror world is a good a place as any for that (as they dont appear to be native creatures of the main randland)

 

I wouldn't count Rats and Ravens (Crows) as being controlled. I though they were creatures of the Dark one, and by their nature of living off death, they fight with the darkness.

 

And insects, good point. Grandel admitted what she did with the bird had to be done with the TP.

 

I thought she was holding off the grolm with Air, and made it seem like she used the stick. No one can see the weaves. As to how she controlled them, no idea.

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Let me clarify my comment: I wouldn't count them as an example of animals being controlled in the stories. It was explained that they count as creatures of darkness. So as far as examples of controlling animals, it's pretty much just the insect thing, but I suppose that's enough.

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Did they ever go away? They were there for a couple of days, contrails or such vanish after a few hours at most. Atmospheric disruption caused by magic might be a perminant fixture of the sky though.

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It was an alternate reality - who knows what lived on from the AOL in that reality? "sho-wings" were referenced in the mirrored columns, and I understood them to be essentially passenger jets powered by the OP. It's not too far fetched to think something like that survived in that reality. It's also not too far fetched to think that if the Trollocs won and de-populated the continent they eventually pulled back to the blight. The fight could even have been continuing on somewhere else, so the trails were still there despite the immediate lack of population.

 

The idea of a meteor makes sense too. A rock large enough to create an extinction level event would certainly leave a large trail as it passed through the atmosphere. A series of meteor showers would possibly explain the tracks in the land, too.

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The victory was over hawkwing, not over all of humanity. Who is to say that the seanchan didn't find order without luthair and develope into an advanced society? Maybe Ishy wanted luthair to in their to send them more into the dark ages by conquering them? What about Shara?

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Did they ever go away? They were there for a couple of days, contrails or such vanish after a few hours at most. Atmospheric disruption caused by magic might be a perminant fixture of the sky though.

 

They went away, and I believe he saw new ones being created at least once.

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The WoT Encyclopedia only offers that it might be a jet contrail, too, but I find that ridiculous.

 

Was that a reply for me? If it was I meant that it was something that might be in the Encyclopedia that Harriet, Maria and Alan are making from Jordan's notes, not that it would be in eWoT.

 

You mean we're actualy going to get to look at the notes the man himself made for the WoT? I've been griping about that for ages! Excelent, now I have something to look forward to after aMoL comes out. Hopefully the internal art will be better than the White Book. I know the artist was rushed and only had time to submit sketches, but still; we've got fan art up on the dragonmount boards thats better. From kids. That's real good news, Luckers.

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They'd better! That would be worth it's weight in gold - which I imagine will be quite a hefty book. :smile:

 

I'd definately fork out for that. And then spend years trying to answer all those questions floating around.

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Tell me about it, i hope they do release a comprehensive "World" book and put all of Jordans notes in it. That would make me a very happy randlander :)

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I believe it was a contrail. It's been 3,000 years since the breaking. Even if advanced technology didn't survive, that is plenty of time for a human population on another continent to achieve modern flight. In Randland Ishamael has been thwarting human advances for those 3,000 years, but in this alternate world, there is nothing to say that was the case. Even if the trollocs destroyed humanity on this continent, there is no reason to assume all continents are dead. In "our" world, we know that Seanchan has no trollocs because the Seanchan have stated as much. I think it is safe to assume there are continents that don't touch the blight and have escaped the trolloc wars entirely. Given 3,000 years, they could easily be in an era with technology rivaling or greater than ours. Look where WE were 3,000 years ago...

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Yeah I figure it will never be explained, unfortunately I latch on to the oddest things when I read, they are never of any consequence but they are the holes that bother me the most.

I latch onto such things too. But most don't annoy me. They just simply won't get out of my mind. Some of them I have not asked about here simply because I know there aren't good answers.

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The WoT Encyclopedia only offers that it might be a jet contrail, too, but I find that ridiculous.

 

Was that a reply for me? If it was I meant that it was something that might be in the Encyclopedia that Harriet, Maria and Alan are making from Jordan's notes, not that it would be in eWoT.

 

You mean we're actualy going to get to look at the notes the man himself made for the WoT? I've been griping about that for ages! Excelent, now I have something to look forward to after aMoL comes out. Hopefully the internal art will be better than the White Book. I know the artist was rushed and only had time to submit sketches, but still; we've got fan art up on the dragonmount boards thats better. From kids. That's real good news, Luckers.

 

Yeah, it will probably be released about a year or so after aMoL.

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Quite a confusing one really. It depends on the nature of the Mirror World, and how Mirror Worlds actually work.

 

It could be a sho-wing or some kind of aircraft, as it could have, in this world, survived the Breaking somehow.

 

But it asks the question, are the Mirror World's completely different in all aspects of history?

 

What I mean is that in the theory of alternate worlds, it is theorized that for every "choice", it branches of to another reality etc..

 

In this Mirror World, Hawkwing still fights, yet is overcome by Trollocs. Does that mean that every aspect of the history is changed, like the Breaking, Trolloc Wars, etc...

 

Or does it mean that this a world where history diverges from the key moment Hawkwing is defeated, instead of victorious over the Trollocs? Usually in "alternate realities" the history is the same up until the one point that diverges and makes it different.

 

Not to say that it can't be just a completely different reality with a whole different history, just that everything seems the same up until Hawkwing's loss.

 

 

It would be hard to believe it is some kind of aircraft if it is a divergent from Hawkwing's loss. I don't see how they could exist if Trollocs won, with society at the level it was, how technology could be improved to have aircraft. The Seanchan haven't done it now, they are nowhere close to building aircraft, I doubt the Trollocs basically destroying the main continent could somehow lead to a rise in technology from Seanchan. If Seanchan was even founded. Did Hawkwing even live long enough to give birth to, and send Luthair to Seanchan. Being defeated by Trollocs as he was, I doubt he would send his son and a large army off somewhere else.

 

OTOH, it could be that the ruling Aes Sedai, free from the a'dam, managed to salvage society somewhat.

 

Who knows, a complicated matter, as I said.

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Quite a confusing one really. It depends on the nature of the Mirror World, and how Mirror Worlds actually work.

 

It could be a sho-wing or some kind of aircraft, as it could have, in this world, survived the Breaking somehow.

 

But it asks the question, are the Mirror World's completely different in all aspects of history?

 

What I mean is that in the theory of alternate worlds, it is theorized that for every "choice", it branches of to another reality etc..

 

In this Mirror World, Hawkwing still fights, yet is overcome by Trollocs. Does that mean that every aspect of the history is changed, like the Breaking, Trolloc Wars, etc...

 

Or does it mean that this a world where history diverges from the key moment Hawkwing is defeated, instead of victorious over the Trollocs? Usually in "alternate realities" the history is the same up until the one point that diverges and makes it different.

 

Not to say that it can't be just a completely different reality with a whole different history, just that everything seems the same up until Hawkwing's loss.

 

 

It would be hard to believe it is some kind of aircraft if it is a divergent from Hawkwing's loss. I don't see how they could exist if Trollocs won, with society at the level it was, how technology could be improved to have aircraft. The Seanchan haven't done it now, they are nowhere close to building aircraft, I doubt the Trollocs basically destroying the main continent could somehow lead to a rise in technology from Seanchan. If Seanchan was even founded. Did Hawkwing even live long enough to give birth to, and send Luthair to Seanchan. Being defeated by Trollocs as he was, I doubt he would send his son and a large army off somewhere else.

 

OTOH, it could be that the ruling Aes Sedai, free from the a'dam, managed to salvage society somewhat.

 

Who knows, a complicated matter, as I said.

 

Well. The Seanchan kinda screwed themselves by removing the people who were scientists mixing magic and science in the old days. So they couldn't develop the necessary science, however if the Adam was never invented, perhaps the AS of that land mass took over, made peace and was able to make sho wings and such again. The Seanchan even if left alone would never evolve because of how they treat their magic. (Althouhg I guess they could technically make real science eventually, but I find it doubtful).

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I highly doubt the Aes Sedai of the pre-Paendrag Seanchan had much to do with salvaging any form of society outside their own sphere of power. Based only on the online resources and in-book descriptions of the history of Seanchan, those who called themselves Aes Sedai there were a lot like the evil sorcerers in the Conan series (to which cannon Robert Jordan added a number of fine books prior to his starting the WoT, and in fact his Conan was the basis of Perrin). The descriptions of the pre-Paendrag Seanchan Aes Sedai had them billed as warlords and masters of arcane power who would use their power to pursue their own ends, usually in the furtherance of more power. They even jealously protected their own arcane secrets, training their own apprentices slowly so as to not foster a threat to their own power similar to the Sith's Rule of Two in Star Wars.

 

A situation where a society is ruled by these kind of warlords could never foster an advanced civilization capable of developing an industrial base in which the tools and science to develop powered flight could be produced. An advanced civilization could regress into a warlord rule, but not the other way around (Asimov's Foundation series is a good read on this).

 

That's one of the reasons I find the idea of a jet contrail so ridiculous, even setting aside the basic foundations of the series in that is High Fiction. You might as well start talking about introducing Marvel comics-style Mutants into the mix and how they might be able to fight shadowspawn at the great battle (NO! Fan fiction writers, that means no. Please, Light, No, if you have a soul). Our own world is no comparison. We don’t have a steadily dwindling population, we don’t have a pervasive evil force constantly trying to get us to BOW DOWN TO HIS BIG VOICE, we don’t have an apocalypse every 1000 years or so, and we don’t have the rules and tropes of a High Fantasy world keeping us from advancing even if we did.

 

Mirror worlds within the fantasy environment make everything weird, though. Without any word from the Man himself there is literally no way to know what was up in that strange place or how its history and peoples differ from Randland. I was just hoping for some kind of confirmation or at least a better idea than "it was a jet" (aliens and meteors, unfortunately are in the same boat, I think, as much as I LoL'd, I've always loved the idea of an alien invasion of a High fantasy world; check out Grunts! by Mary Gentle or the movie Krul for a couple of good ones).

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I highly doubt the Aes Sedai of the pre-Paendrag Seanchan had much to do with salvaging any form of society outside their own sphere of power. Based only on the online resources and in-book descriptions of the history of Seanchan, those who called themselves Aes Sedai there were a lot like the evil sorcerers in the Conan series (to which cannon Robert Jordan added a number of fine books prior to his starting the WoT, and in fact his Conan was the basis of Perrin). The descriptions of the pre-Paendrag Seanchan Aes Sedai had them billed as warlords and masters of arcane power who would use their power to pursue their own ends, usually in the furtherance of more power. They even jealously protected their own arcane secrets, training their own apprentices slowly so as to not foster a threat to their own power similar to the Sith's Rule of Two in Star Wars.

 

Recall who that description was given by though, as far as we know, that's all lies, especially given the contempt they hold channelers. That being said, I was implying that they could have advanced if they worked together in the future. Perhaps eventually one petty AS would have ruled them all, and ushered in a new world of peace and such.

 

I still don't think the idea of it is implausible, I can see how it would work without suspending too much disbelief. Honestly, I have bigger gripes with the series than that, much bigger that are waaaaayyy worse.

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Recall who that description was given by though, as far as we know, that's all lies, especially given the contempt they hold channelers. That being said, I was implying that they could have advanced if they worked together in the future. Perhaps eventually one petty AS would have ruled them all, and ushered in a new world of peace and such.

 

I still don't think the idea of it is implausible, I can see how it would work without suspending too much disbelief. Honestly, I have bigger gripes with the series than that, much bigger that are waaaaayyy worse.

 

That’s a pretty good point, given an alternate version of Seanchan. There is probably no limit to what could be gained by an extremely long-lived magic-using warlord, backed by a coterie of devoted magic-using enforcers, utilizing their magic to create science, using magic-based technology to prop up an unassailable empire . ...It's almost like a dark version of the Age of Legends. It’s…beautiful. Actually, I really want to read that book now. And come to think of it, given a dark version of the AoL, it really isn’t that implausible to have a One Powered aircraft similar to the sho-wings on history.

 

The Seanchan view of their own history is of course suspect, but it’s really all we have to go on. History belongs to the victors, after all. But if it is written, it is cannon, so I guess we’ll have to take it as face value.

Edited by Lurk31

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Recall who that description was given by though, as far as we know, that's all lies, especially given the contempt they hold channelers. That being said, I was implying that they could have advanced if they worked together in the future. Perhaps eventually one petty AS would have ruled them all, and ushered in a new world of peace and such.

 

I still don't think the idea of it is implausible, I can see how it would work without suspending too much disbelief. Honestly, I have bigger gripes with the series than that, much bigger that are waaaaayyy worse.

 

That’s a pretty good point, given an alternate version of Seanchan. There is probably no limit to what could be gained by an extremely long-lived magic-using warlord, backed by a coterie of devoted magic-using enforcers, utilizing their magic to create science, using magic-based technology to prop up an unassailable empire . ...It's almost like a dark version of the Age of Legends. It’s…beautiful. Actually, I really want to read that book now. And come to think of it, given a dark version of the AoL, it really isn’t that implausible to have a One Powered aircraft similar to the sho-wings on history.

 

The Seanchan view of their own history is of course suspect, but it’s really all we have to go on. History belongs to the victors, after all. But if it is written, it is cannon, so I guess we’ll have to take it as face value.

 

We can take it at face value, but when we get opinions of their behavior, we should know to disgard them. Of course they'd say they're petty and such, otherwise it meant they were taking over from the rightful rulers of a foreign land, which kinda blows.

 

But yea it's all possible, just odd. Of course even though Randland might have eventually headed in that direction again, the Seanchan never would have, which is something that never occured to me before now.

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Also worth noting, it would not exactly be progression.

 

It would be re-discovery.

 

It is not so hard to stomach that possibly remnants of the AoL of the construction or what not of Sho-wings etc... were hidden somewhere on the Seanchan continent.

 

With the Aes Sedai not leashed and anything to do with the Power abhorred, it is possible that they found such a piece of information and began to create aircraft again. Like the Fancloth, the White Tower didn't actually discover it, they don't even know what it really is. It is just they found a ter'angreal that created it, and managed to use it.

 

Same situation here. Personally, I think it relies on a lot of pretty thin assumptions. (Who would come to that conclusion, that these Aes Sedai managed to find a fragment of AoL that led to aircraft) However, it is neither impossible nor unthinkable.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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I don't think Hawkwings defeat would have been the catalyst for advanced technology. I think humans naturally would have progressed to that point in the 3,000 years since the breaking in "our" universe if Ishamael hadn't been free to bring humanity to its knees every time it started to mature (Trolloc Wars, Hawkwings death and civil war, et cetera).

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Keep in mind that over 1,000 years have passed. A thousand years ago I'm pretty sure Europe was dominated by warlords and kings seeking to expand their own power and warring with each other.

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This has long vexed me as well. But I think that one thing we must keep in mind is that even if one of the primary differences was the Shadow's victory at Talidar it would appear that that world had been different for a long time, as the existence of grolm would indicate, as people would have travelled to this world from Seanchan after the Breaking, and it was already different centuries before Hawkwing. Although I don't believe we see any evidence for the grolm or other exotics neccessarily being native to this land, it could just be that Lanfear brought them there as well and the grolm originally came from a different portal world.

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