How did the Sisters link with that Ashaman?

[firstfishman]

When Perrin made his hammer, those sisters used the one power for making a weapon.

[Lacanos]

As memory serves, he says "Wise ones, I need a circle now"

 

Checked:

p612 UK Hardcover: "Wise Ones, I neeed a circle," Neald said urgently. "Now. Don't argue! I need it!"

then on

p614: "Neald fell to his knees, panting, his face coated with sweat. Grady and the women of the circle sat down, looking exhausted. All six Wise Ones had joined in"

 

So there were no Aes Sedai involved.

[Durinax]

this does make me wonder if a ashaman could use a an AS to make a weapon if he had control of the circle

[firstfishman]

Thx

[rand4747]

So its wise ones, but about Aes Sedai, It depends if they think they are making it or they think hes making it and they are just contributing their strength, they aren't doing any work themselves if they are linked to someone else whos doing it.

[RandA lThor]

If they are not told before they definitely can, once in the circle they can't get out.

[Sharaman]

As above the WO helped.

But in theory, a hammer is a tool -it can be used as a weapon but if an AS thinks it's a tool she could help make it. She could also help to make it if she was convinced it would never be used as a weapon by a man to kill a man. Creating a weapon to kill shadowspawn is ok.

[Lacanos]

If they are not told before they definitely can, once in the circle they can't get out.

Wrong.

In the same way Aes Sedai who are leashed cannot be used as a weapon, neither can Aes Sedai be used to make weapons once bound by oaths.

[TristanWebb]

You can't call an a'dam a proper circle though. If an AS joined a circle for some other reason then the leader decided to use Saidar to kill a hundred people, the AS wouldn't be able to leave the circle because that isn't possible, the Oath might make them suffocate though.

 

If a sul'dam used the a'dam the way Nyn and Elayne used it, as an involuntary circle rather than making the damane channel, then the could probably be made to blow things up, but at that point you have actively channelling sul'dam which wouldn't work.

[spoke]

You are all asking the wrong question. The question isn't "could the AS be forced to make a weapon by being part of a circle?" The correct question is "do the oaths bound by one in a circle force themselves onto another in the circle?" We haven't seen this presented before.

[Elgee]

They'd probably choke and die, like that Sister the BA Hunters caught did when they tried to force her to say something untrue.

[Edynol]

Nah. If they are not actively guiding the flows, and linked sister can be used for anything. The oaths say that they will not use the power as a weapon or to make a weapon. Being part of circle in which someone else does these, it wouldn't be them doing it, it would be the leader of the circle doing it.

[fikkie77]

Can an Aes Sedai join a circle if she knew beforehand that the circle would be used to create a weapon with the One Power?

I think the Oath would prevent that.

[Conan]

Can a circle be formed while someone is channeling I don't think neald stopes heating the metal can that effect weather or not AS can join

[fikkie77]

you have to surrender saidar or saidin while holding it, so I would say: no.

exception: the one who leads: he takes saidin or saidar from the ones surrendering. He might even already be channeling.

[Aulduron]

They probably couldn't join the circe if they believed they were going to make a weapon for one man to kill another man.

[Lacanos]

RIGHT, LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT

 

What happens when an Aes Sedai bound by an a'dam is used to try and kill people etc, the weaves can be "placed" but cannot form - they cannot have effect.

An a'dam is a proper circle, regardless of contributions etc. That's not a good rebuttal.

Therefore, we can logically conject from this that an Aes Sedai in a circle that would be used to make a weapon would be incapable of forming the weaves - they might be placed but the oaths would prevent them from being formed.

 

While this does create an interesting "qualification" to the supposed "overwhelming" control a circle grants, it's pretty obvious that this is already confirmed by the way a'dam work.

[rand4747]

with an adam the damane herself is channeling so of course she cant attack people with it.

 

same with if the suldam can channel and uses the damane to channel the weaves controlling it directloy from her, couse shes forcing the damane to channel.

 

But a normal circle its one person channeling whos using the power from the others, not making the others channel and controlling it.

 

So i think it is possible aes sedai in a regular circle to contribute the power, but those in a leach can not even if the suldam is the one actually controlling the power through them. Its sort of where is the weaves actually coming from not whos controlling it. When Nynaeve controls Moggy its Moggy thats channeling the flows, Nynaeve is just making her do it through the bond. Almost like shes doing it herself but not really. But thats not how it works in a regular circle.

[TristanWebb]

An a'dam isn't a proper circle because of the way it is used. Nyn when she first captures Moggy uses it as a proper circle, with her channelling and Moggy only being a conduit, but usually it isn't done that way. The sul'dam don't channel, they just tell the damane what to channel and control access to the power. If the sul'dam used it as a proper circle, where they were actually channelling, they could make the AS damane contribute to the ground explosioning. But the Oaths don't circumvent physics (as in the laws of the physical world) they just stop the sisters from being able to do them willingly. If a sister made a doorstop with the power, there is nothing stopping a man from picking it up and bashing someones head in with it. Just as if a sister joins a circle, there is no way for that circle to be broken (that we know of) outside of being released. The sister doesn't control any of her flow of saidar and so anything the other channeller wants to do is fair game.

[Byzantine279]

It probably depends on if the Aes Sedai are aware of what is going on and if they are thinking along the right lines. We know for a fact the oaths are very literal, so if they are thinking of what they are doing only about as for killing shadowspawn they wouldn't have an issue.

[yoniy0]

This has been covered to some extent by the authors:

KOD Signing Report - Shannan Lieb (Paraphrased) Oct 21st, 2005

Question

One question was for a role-playing group, and they asked, "Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?"

Robert Jordan

He answered that no, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

yoniy0 6:33 AM - 30 Jul 10

Sorry. There has been some discussion around the Third Oath and Egwene attacking retreating raken...

yoniy0 6:33 AM - 30 Jul 10

I was asking if you think she could have done the same now, after taking the Oaths (and whether you asked Maria to weigh in).

BRANDON SANDERSON 6:36 PM - 30 Jul 10

We did talk about this. I think it's iffy. Depends on Egwene's mindset. I don't think most Aes Sedai could have done it.

BRANDON SANDERSON 6:36 PM - 30 Jul 10

In fact, it's good her circles was with those who hadn't taken the Oaths yet...

[Terez]

Just noticed a typo. Fixed now.

[Edynol]

Well normally I'd say those quotes would be case closed, but they really don't answer all of the questions.

 

Also, if she were bound, she would be able to killed a retreating raken if they were carrying another sister. But if they weren't, then she probably couldn't unless she was in the moment and all raken were attacking them. Remember the oaths work solely on intent, is has been proven in the books. Like the Aes Sedai with on their way from Ebou Dar, while other Aes Sedai would most likely consider themselves in danger as soon as the fighting started and could channel, she didn't so she couldn't. Also, they vow to speak no word that is untrue, yet they can do so if using sarcasm or if they believe something is true. If the oaths were total stoppers rather the sister knew something or had different intent, then it would easy to do a lot of things, like point at any sister and say, "You are black Ajah." If they were BA, they'd be able to say but if they weren't they wouldn't, despite what they thought they knew or felt. So the oaths aren't total stoppers because they don't know what is what, only what the sister knows or feels.

 

For example, while healing Mat form the dagger, all those sisters were able to form the circle cause they thought they were healing, but if it turned out was Siuan was the supreme Black overlord of the BA and used that power to balefire Mat into last month, those who weren't black wouldn't be able to break loose and would probably die or something.

[yoniy0]

Not break loose, no, but Brandon said it was a good thing no AS was in Egwene's circle. Why? Well, only option is, something bad would've happened. What? Would Egwene simply not be able to weave fireballs directed at retreating raken? No, that's hardly a big deal. The only thing I can think of, that reasonably explains what he said, is that the Oaths would tax any AS in such a circle to the point of death, same as they do when two Oaths contradict (i.e., when obeying an Oath becomes impossible, no matter what you do).

[Edynol]

Yeah, exactly. Like when what's her name took an oath not to lie and obey the sitter, but then she told her to admit the lie.