Egwene Appreciation Thread

[Barid Bel Medar]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

 

It has been suggested that Brandon's Egwene, in particular in Towers of Midnight, has been off character, much like Mat in tGS is said to be. Particularly his poor handling of the TAR scene with Perrin and Egwene. This is what has been said, not necessarily my views.

 

Yeah , I also find this scene being written with a bit of Perrin favouritism . We , WoT fans , all know that Perrin is BS's most related character and he did not keep himself from making him looking better than other characters supposed to interact with him . Like Elayne when he came to negotiate with her or Galad in their Parlez-vous , Egwene in their TAR meeting is just one of those examples .

 

Indeed, he has admitted he was trying to make Perrin as awesome as possible (to make up for the negative perception that was gained in the Shaido Arc, most likely.)

 

But it is not just that scene, throughout the whole book there seems to be the trend of character v character. Which one gets the upper hand. Unfortunately for Egwene, she gets the brunt of it, with her v Gawyn, Rand, Perrin, Wise Ones and Sea Folk, Nynaeve, Mesaana (although this was a Forsaken, but still, it followed the same tradition)

 

Of course, there are multiple ways this can be viewed.

[randsc]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

 

It has been suggested that Brandon's Egwene, in particular in Towers of Midnight, has been off character, much like Mat in tGS is said to be. Particularly his poor handling of the TAR scene with Perrin and Egwene. This is what has been said, not necessarily my views.

 

Yeah , I also find this scene being written with a bit of Perrin favouritism . We , WoT fans , all know that Perrin is BS's most related character and he did not keep himself from making him looking better than other characters supposed to interact with him . Like Elayne when he came to negotiate with her or Galad in their Parlez-vous , Egwene in their TAR meeting is just one of those examples .

 

Indeed, he has admitted he was trying to make Perrin as awesome as possible (to make up for the negative perception that was gained in the Shaido Arc, most likely.)

 

But it is not just that scene, throughout the whole book there seems to be the trend of character v character. Which one gets the upper hand. Unfortunately for Egwene, she gets the brunt of it, with her v Gawyn, Rand, Perrin, Wise Ones and Sea Folk, Nynaeve, Mesaana (although this was a Forsaken, but still, it followed the same tradition)

 

Of course, there are multiple ways this can be viewed.

 

You see, I would have had more respect for Sanderson if he had defended, or simply allowed to stand, what was written in the TAR scene between Egwene and Perrin. Trying to explain away the plain language of the text because it resulted in some blowback in fandom is unfortunate. OF COURSE Egwene was trying to tie Perrin up and leave him. It's right there in the text. OF COURSE it is legitimate to question whether that was an admirable thing to do. Just leave both of those standing, don't try to create a revisionist history in which she was just about to whisk him away somewhere safe.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You see, I would have had more respect for Sanderson if he had defended, or simply allowed to stand, what was written in the TAR scene between Egwene and Perrin. Trying to explain away the plain language of the text because it resulted in some blowback in fandom is unfortunate. OF COURSE Egwene was trying to tie Perrin up and leave him. It's right there in the text. OF COURSE it is legitimate to question whether that was an admirable thing to do. Just leave both of those standing, don't try to create a revisionist history in which she was just about to whisk him away somewhere safe.

 

Indeed, that is why I mentioned that scene specifically, things like this, where he has to actually defend Egwene's actions make it seem like he KNOWS that he made her look bad, whether this is on purpose or unintentional is another question however, it should either be a) made clear what is happening b) intentionally ambiguous.

 

If it needs explaining afterwards, obviously something was missing there.

[Kamin_Majere]

The other issue, I think, is that unlike other characters, Egwene's unrealistic accomplishments grate because they are in mundane areas. I'm not going to say, "Hey, it's unrealistic that Rand got so good at magic so quickly!!!" It's magic, and inherently unrealistic. Whereas I find the idea that centuries-old Aes Sedai would be so outclassed in real-world areas like law and politics unrealistic.

 

I found this a little odd as well. The first time with the declaration of war I thought was quite brilliant, it played off of the Aes Sedai ranking system and them thinking they had a puppet in the Amrylin Seat. It the continuation of the scenes i thought were odd... I understand they originally thought Siuan completely retarded now that her abilities were so much less, but how many examples do they need to realize that isn't the case. :(

 

Its the same with Egwene, I know some of the trickery had to happen to further the story line, but as smart as Egwene is I find it hard to believe she's able to completely over awe everyone she meets. Yellows think her healing natures is "so" them, and whites find her the most logical person they've ever met, browns are infatuated with her keen knowledge of everything, greens are simply dominated by her passionate spirit, and grays think she is a political mastermind (blues and reds were never really brought up that i remember though). This coming from women that have been trained and are recognized as the "heads" in their respective fields by others that have been doing these same jobs/actions for decades or even centuries.

 

I still believe Egwene will get to that point, but to shove all of this in a girl that has at most 19 years under her belt seems to stretch believably.

 

Her strength in the One Power is fine, I like her being a rare all 5 strong person, and she's nothing short of a genius in the one power (even if she doesn't know all the weaves yet) but to have her a master of everything that others have taken decades/centuries to master takes things a bit far I think. She doesn't have the real world experience that others have had, nor does she have a moment of enlightenment (like Rand in VoG) to account for this.

 

With how her character has been written I wouldn't be surprised if in AMoL she takes up a sword and bests Lan in single combat.

 

Having a character that is instantly better than everyone at everything gives little to grow into. Her only weakness seems to be her own assumptions about a few things, that unfortunately doesn't yield a lot of good story.

 

I honestly wanted her to be Amrylin, and to become so great at it that legends were spoken about her for centuries. But to have it all fall at her feet because apparently no one can match her at anything seems weak and takes away from her as a character.

[Elvira_Sedai]

You see, I would have had more respect for Sanderson if he had defended, or simply allowed to stand, what was written in the TAR scene between Egwene and Perrin. Trying to explain away the plain language of the text because it resulted in some blowback in fandom is unfortunate. OF COURSE Egwene was trying to tie Perrin up and leave him. It's right there in the text. OF COURSE it is legitimate to question whether that was an admirable thing to do. Just leave both of those standing, don't try to create a revisionist history in which she was just about to whisk him away somewhere safe.

 

Indeed, that is why I mentioned that scene specifically, things like this, where he has to actually defend Egwene's actions make it seem like he KNOWS that he made her look bad, whether this is on purpose or unintentional is another question however, it should either be a) made clear what is happening b) intentionally ambiguous.

 

If it needs explaining afterwards, obviously something was missing there.

 

Agree . I have no problem with an author presenting my favourite character in negative way because we all are humans and have our own opinion . One of my long time favs , Morgana le Fay is a perfect example of this . That scene with Perrin and Egwene trying to tie him and his easy escape could be introduced to show Perrin's superiority skill in TAR , but Brandon himself said that they are both very strong there , but a different way . So he somehow contradicts his written text and makes me sure that the reason of it is the one in my previous post .

[Elan Tedronai]

I never cared much for egwene for most of the series. That changed until book 6 when those goons installed her as a puppet amyrlin with the intention of using her a shield against elaida. Coupled that her decision to help free logain in the face of her detractors and slapping the sweat out of the black ajah and the seanchan alike meant her being my fave character is a no brainer.

 

The only one out of the emond's fielders who fought against the odds to reach the top. No prophecies, visions, pattern, destiny BS or anything like that. It was sheer determination, patience, hard work and a little bit of brains

[cwbys21]

I wouldn't say there wasn't any pattern or destiny "BS" helping Egwene. In fact, for a 19 year old Accepted who just happens to be a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn to become Amyrlin kind of suggests it was "destined" or patern provided for Rand to have someone who hasn't had her head up her ass for 100 years playing tower politics to be his ally.

[baalsmistress]

She was VERY VERY helped by Siuanne Sanche. Of course, that means she had the brains, trust and vision to initially let Siuanne guide her, and then to recruit her as principle adviser and tutor.

 

Most of her coups were engineered in conjunction with Siuanne. That doesn't detract from Egwene's achievement. After all, part of the skill of ruling is chosing good advisers.

[SuperFade]

I wouldn't say there wasn't any pattern or destiny "BS" helping Egwene. In fact, for a 19 year old Accepted who just happens to be a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn to become Amyrlin kind of suggests it was "destined" or patern provided for Rand to have someone who hasn't had her head up her ass for 100 years playing tower politics to be his ally.

 

It was destined in the sense that Robert Jordan decided it would happen in the very first book, realised around the middle of the series that he had no idea how to realistically get her there, then shrugged his shoulders and carried on anyway. It's just as randsc said - Egwene is dangerously close to being a Sue from a writing perspective.

[randsc]

I wouldn't say there wasn't any pattern or destiny "BS" helping Egwene. In fact, for a 19 year old Accepted who just happens to be a childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn to become Amyrlin kind of suggests it was "destined" or patern provided for Rand to have someone who hasn't had her head up her ass for 100 years playing tower politics to be his ally.

 

It was destined in the sense that Robert Jordan decided it would happen in the very first book, realised around the middle of the series that he had no idea how to realistically get her there, then shrugged his shoulders and carried on anyway. It's just as randsc said - Egwene is dangerously close to being a Sue from a writing perspective.

 

Right. My suspicion is that he originally intended Dreaming to be a big deal, but then found that having even one major character with the gift of prophecy closed a lot of options, and didn't want to have two. So Egwene's Dreaming diminished, and nothing really took its place except for Because She's Awesome-sauce!!!

[XXX]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better. If the latter, it might be worth considering why. Has BS improved the characters of the others? Made Egwene worse? A combination of the two? Certainly Sanderson's books contain prominent examples of the problems people have with her. It might be that his mishandling of the character has taken someone bad and made her worse, at least in the eyes of some. So, Egwene haters: in which book was she worst?

 

 

This is a good point. Perceptions of Egwene have gotten worse, I agree.

 

I don't think that perceptions of her changed with Sanderson, either by improving other characters or worsening Egwene. If anything, Egwene has now been given what are sometimes called, "moments of awesome" in the past couple of books that help counterbalance some of the negativity.

 

My personal perception is that Faile-hate was always overblown, and isn't even Faile hate. It's "messed with the story-line of the popular character" hate. Jordan went off the rails a bit with the Perrin-Faile story line. Elayne-hate is about class, entitlement and more than a little, "Christ, won't this circus crap ever end?"

 

What has happened with Egwene is that her Mary-Sue-like attributes have been reinforced by repetition. Every scene that ends with yet another Wise Woman/Windfinder/Aes Sedai in awe of Egwene's awesomeness adds to the dislike. So does every instance of her opponents turning into idiots, just in time to be schooled by Egwene.

 

The other issue, I think, is that unlike other characters, Egwene's unrealistic accomplishments grate because they are in mundane areas. I'm not going to say, "Hey, it's unrealistic that Rand got so good at magic so quickly!!!" It's magic, and inherently unrealistic. Whereas I find the idea that centuries-old Aes Sedai would be so outclassed in real-world areas like law and politics unrealistic.

 

How can any post on Egwene's awesomeness be complete without the example of the close to century old Aes Sedai asking Egwene advice on how to handle her warder?

 

Even now I cannot believe that that line was added.

[Kahsm]

Attempts to rationalise away the dislike people have for Egwene are so often very deeply flawed. People dislike her for a variety of reasons, some good others not so good. As a rule, they don't hate her because she's a woman, because she's ambitious, because she's opposed to Rand even. People can like or dislike both or neither - sympathy with one does not preclude or impact upon sympathy for the other. Some people have put forward well reasoned arguments of all the problems with Egwene's character - to dismiss these out of hand by claiming they only dislike her because she's ambitious or opposed to Rand is inaccurate and rude. People dislike Egwene for the flaws in her character. She has good points and bad. If people see her negatives as outweighing her positives, they will tend to like her rather less than if they see her positives outweighing her negatives. The same is true of any other character in the series, male or female.

...

 

And yet attempts to dislike Egwene are often equally flawed/overblown/full of hyperbole. Usually it's pretty easy to "rationalalize" away Egwene hate by just reading the particular passages people point to without their bias colouring the real intention. But I get your point about generalizing, I try not to do that. You usually need to ask what specific things caused that hate, then point out why they interpreted it wrong, which most of the time they did -- confirmation bias.

 

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

 

It has been suggested that Brandon's Egwene, in particular in Towers of Midnight, has been off character, much like Mat in tGS is said to be. Particularly his poor handling of the TAR scene with Perrin and Egwene. This is what has been said, not necessarily my views.

 

Yeah , I also find this scene being written with a bit of Perrin favouritism . We , WoT fans , all know that Perrin is BS's most related character and he did not keep himself from making him looking better than other characters supposed to interact with him . Like Elayne when he came to negotiate with her or Galad in their Parlez-vous , Egwene in their TAR meeting is just one of those examples .

 

Indeed, he has admitted he was trying to make Perrin as awesome as possible (to make up for the negative perception that was gained in the Shaido Arc, most likely.)

 

But it is not just that scene, throughout the whole book there seems to be the trend of character v character. Which one gets the upper hand. Unfortunately for Egwene, she gets the brunt of it, with her v Gawyn, Rand, Perrin, Wise Ones and Sea Folk, Nynaeve, Mesaana (although this was a Forsaken, but still, it followed the same tradition)

 

Of course, there are multiple ways this can be viewed.

 

You see, I would have had more respect for Sanderson if he had defended, or simply allowed to stand, what was written in the TAR scene between Egwene and Perrin. Trying to explain away the plain language of the text because it resulted in some blowback in fandom is unfortunate. OF COURSE Egwene was trying to tie Perrin up and leave him. It's right there in the text. OF COURSE it is legitimate to question whether that was an admirable thing to do. Just leave both of those standing, don't try to create a revisionist history in which she was just about to whisk him away somewhere safe.

 

And now randsc is trying to argue that the author is wrong. Which I'm fairly certain I got blasted for in the blademaster thread, and I wasn't even arguing he was wrong, just that he was making a different point. Randsc is pulling out full blown conspiracy theories. And such large claims require significant evidence, of which there is none. I read the scene exactly as Brandon described it. I'm sorry if your twisted view screwed it up. You can certainly try to claim my bias changed my view, but it's still the view that lines up with with the author said he intended.... so yeah.... I mean assuming Egwene was just going to leave him there to be killed or something is ridiculous. There's no evidence or suggestion of that. Brandon is probably shocked anyone would consider that would be her intention since there's no suggestion she is that type of person ANYWHERE IN THE SERIES, unless you're bat shit crazy and irrationally hate her for no rational reason.

 

I never cared much for egwene for most of the series. That changed until book 6 when those goons installed her as a puppet amyrlin with the intention of using her a shield against elaida. Coupled that her decision to help free logain in the face of her detractors and slapping the sweat out of the black ajah and the seanchan alike meant her being my fave character is a no brainer.

 

The only one out of the emond's fielders who fought against the odds to reach the top. No prophecies, visions, pattern, destiny BS or anything like that. It was sheer determination, patience, hard work and a little bit of brains

 

Exactly. Again, traits that are very popular today as drivers of the economy, inventors, innovators, entrepreneurs, but very unpopular in a book for some odd reason. How dare she try and succeed! She must be a mary-sue because everyone must fail at everything they ever do unless there's prophecy or divine intervetion to make everything work out!

 

<sarcasm>

Mark Zuckerberg is only 27, but when facebook goes public he'll have billions. Clearly he's far too young to be worth billions. He must be a Marty-sue! how totally impossible and unrealistic. There's no way he could exist in real life. I hate him with a passion. He should be struggling to get a job

like every other 27 year old, anything else is unbelivable.

 

Oh and if you criticize my dislike of Mark, then you are calling me sexist against men! I don't care what your actual point is because I won't read it anyway.

</sarcasm>

[Durinax]

I never cared much for egwene for most of the series. That changed until book 6 when those goons installed her as a puppet amyrlin with the intention of using her a shield against elaida. Coupled that her decision to help free logain in the face of her detractors and slapping the sweat out of the black ajah and the seanchan alike meant her being my fave character is a no brainer.

 

The only one out of the emond's fielders who fought against the odds to reach the top. No prophecies, visions, pattern, destiny BS or anything like that. It was sheer determination, patience, hard work and a little bit of brains

 

Exactly. Again, traits that are very popular today as drivers of the economy, inventors, innovators, entrepreneurs, but very unpopular in a book for some odd reason. How dare she try and succeed! She must be a mary-sue because everyone must fail at everything they ever do unless there's prophecy or divine intervetion to make everything work out!

 

<sarcasm>

Mark Zuckerberg is only 27, but when facebook goes public he'll have billions. Clearly he's far too young to be worth billions. He must be a Marty-sue! how totally impossible and unrealistic. There's no way he could exist in real life. I hate him with a passion. He should be struggling to get a job

like every other 27 year old, anything else is unbelivable.

 

Oh and if you criticize my dislike of Mark, then you are calling me sexist against men! I don't care what your actual point is because I won't read it anyway.

</sarcasm>

No she is a mary sue, because anyone who could offer resistance (including women hundreds of years old) become bumbling fumbling idiots when in her presence, that and she has such insight that she can fix absolutely everyone's problems.

 

"The only one out of the emond's fielders who fought against the odds to reach the top. No prophecies, visions, pattern, destiny BS or anything like that. It was sheer determination, patience, hard work and a little bit of brains"

I wouldn't say that. She was given nearly every opportunity, 1) she gets chosen as a apprentice to wisdom 2) she gets chosen to go to the WT 3) she gets chosen to go to the Aiel and learn (which I also think is unbelievable due to hostile relations) 4) she gets given the biggest office in the world.

 

not only those but she also lies, and blackmails her 'friends', forces binding oaths, which I guess to you are good business 'ethic'

 

 

oh and in case your confused about mary sue, its because she absolutely 100% undoubtably succeeds at anything she does, whether its giving advice about men to how to best heal the tower. But seeing her fail will be nice, which is where FoM will hopefully step up.

 

sorry but I had to say that after the extremely hostile and condescending tone from kaels post (or at least how I interpretted it)

[TristanWebb]

Attempts to dislike Egwene? Egwene is the ultimate AS. This comes with alot of baggage, much of which is very easy to dislike. Before she was Amrylin she was much easier to like, but the whole 'I hate Romanda and Lelaine guiding me. I have to be free to guide Rand' crap she pulled really got on my nerves. When she was back as a novice her actions were awesome, not allowing people to cow her is something I can respect, but her attitude towards men was still rediculous. Her treatment of Gawyn bordered on psychotic. Her belief that the AS are the be all and end all of power and everything has to be done her way is grating.

 

The problem with Egwene (again, all after being raised) is her PoVs. If you take her actions without the reasoning behind them, she is amazing. With the reasoning, she is just another AS trying to control a world that should be uniting behind the Dragon Reborn to fight the last battle, not bowing down to the AS.

[Maleshub]

She was VERY VERY helped by Siuanne Sanche. Of course, that means she had the brains, trust and vision to initially let Siuanne guide her, and then to recruit her as principle adviser and tutor.

 

Most of her coups were engineered in conjunction with Siuanne. That doesn't detract from Egwene's achievement. After all, part of the skill of ruling is chosing good advisers.

 

And she was trained by Amys, Bair, Melaine, and a few other Wise One's; who in my opinion are worth 100 Aes Sedai each. Their leadership and personality training is powerful. They had Moiraine acting as an apprentice.

 

One of the things that Egwene did when she was raised was to recruit (even coerce) the loyalty of a close group of advisors and behind the scene power brokers. She knew that she couldn't do it herself and needed others to help her.

 

And it took a decision by Siuan to be a mentor, not a manipulator (her initial intention). Without Siuan, Egwene would have failed; and Egwene knew it.

[Sheepherder]

No she is a mary sue, because anyone who could offer resistance (including women hundreds of years old) become bumbling fumbling idiots when in her presence, that and she has such insight that she can fix absolutely everyone's problems.

 

 

All but a very small minority of the Aes Sedai have shown consistently throught the series that they are in most cases"bumbling fumbling idiots", no matter how old they are. Her showing them up does not make her a Mary Sue, It just shows that anyone with a little backbone and intelligence can put them in their place.

 

Egwene is young but she was being trained to lead and how to manipulate people from a very early age by the wisdom of her village, she then learned how Aes Sedai think by Moraine, was taught real leadership and confidence by the wise ones, and finally recieved a huge amount of knowledge from Siuan on how to specifically manipulate Aes Sedai. Giving guidance on handling a warder was a little out there (especially with how poorly she dealt with Gawyn), but otherwise I don't see her interactions with the othe Aes Sedai as that Mary Sue'ish but maybe that is just because I have such a low general opinion of Aes Sedai.

[rand4747]

Attempts to dislike Egwene? Egwene is the ultimate AS. This comes with alot of baggage, much of which is very easy to dislike. Before she was Amrylin she was much easier to like, but the whole 'I hate Romanda and Lelaine guiding me. I have to be free to guide Rand' crap she pulled really got on my nerves. When she was back as a novice her actions were awesome, not allowing people to cow her is something I can respect, but her attitude towards men was still rediculous. Her treatment of Gawyn bordered on psychotic. Her belief that the AS are the be all and end all of power and everything has to be done her way is grating.

 

The problem with Egwene (again, all after being raised) is her PoVs. If you take her actions without the reasoning behind them, she is amazing. With the reasoning, she is just another AS trying to control a world that should be uniting behind the Dragon Reborn to fight the last battle, not bowing down to the AS.

 

 

Hit the nail on the head I think, her actions are great, mostly except for a few things I don't agree with, but her personal thoughts and reasoning are not. However if we did not have access to her head then she would be the greatest person in the world for her actions.

 

Oh also the Aes Sedai are so use to a strict order on how everything is done that when people don't follow that they don't know what to do. Egwene trys to act like an Aes Sedai sometimes but she doesn't do what an Aes Sedai should or what an Amyrlin should. Others to are the same, Aes Sedai don't impress them and so the Aes Sedai don't know what to do when that fails.

[RandA lThor]

Though a lot of people talk about Egwene right now, how many of you liked her before she became the Amyrlin, or even went to the WT.

[fionwe1987]

What people are forgetting with the way the AS in the Tower reacted to Egwene is that they don't think she's the bestest healer/logician/scholar, etc. Let's review the facts:

 

1) Adelorna: Grudgingly showed admiration that Egwene was so cool when she was spanked and humiliated. Later, when she saw Egwene showing calm leadership when the rest of the Tower was running around like headless chickens, and when she learned that Egwene had stayed back to help when she easily could have escaped, she gave her respect, and wanted her as Amyrlin.

 

2) Saerin/Yukiri/Seaine/Dosine: Had Egwene point out to them that the best way to fight the BA was to heal the fractures in the Tower. It is entirely unsurprising that Aes Sedai who have so long had to hold their beliefs of the BA's existence in secret wouldn't have been able to consider that the BA would be so powerful as to cause the Ajah-based dissentions in the Tower. It needed a maverick like Egwene who has none of the Tower's indocrination to point this out. At which point, they started feeing a sense of loyalty because instead of using the knowledge of their secret work for her personal political profit (which she easily could have done), she chose to help them in their task.

 

3) Suana: Simply put, she was impressed that Egwene wanted to Heal the rifts in the Tower, rather than take advantage of them.

 

4) Silviana: Was impressed by Egwene's persistence, her unbending adherence to what she considered her duties, and I'm fairly sure that Egwene comforting and teaching the Novices played a big part for Silviana too.

 

5) Bennae/ the White who needed help with her Warder: In this case, the Aes Sedai asking for help are less than impressive themselves. They're cooped up scholars, and the solution to their problems was common sense, which they clearly did not possess. That Egwene doling out common sense advice made them go "oooh, she's so clever" isn't a sign of Egwene being a sue! Sanderson/Jordan had a very easy way of making Egwene an all-knowing sue. Just show her reading books in the Tower Library in TAR for several books, and voila, you have a great way of showing her off as girl-genius. That wasn't what they chose because that wasn't their aim with this character.

 

What matters here is that it is Egwene's show of competance at her young age which impresses the Aes Sedai. When you see a 40+ year old Aes Sedai who is a trainwreck as Amyrlin, and then are confronted with a 19 year old in Novice white making more sense and displaying genuine concern for the Tower over her personal power, it is hard not to respect the 19 year old. The summation of their reaction can be taken as, "If she is this competant at 19, how good will she be when she grows older?". They aren't saying "Wow this woman is a genius savant who is so much better than me. Let's bow down to her glory".

 

If you want a comparison, look at how Cadsuane changed her attitude towards Nynaeve. When she saw that Nynaeve, despite great personal loyalty to Rand and great animosity towards Cadsuane, had come to her after Natrin's Barrow and offered her help, and was willing to accept onerous and fairly unreasonable demands to serve the greater good, she stated flat out that Nynaeve is the only one of the current crop that is salvageable. That is ridiculously high praise from Cadsuane, because she says this in front of sisters she thinks are competant and trustworthy, like Merise. It just seems so little to us because Cadsuane herself is so much more competant than the general run of the Aes Sedai that she is unlikely to be all that much delighted over Nynaeve.

 

The Sitter's reaction to Egwene is similar. Most of them were likely despairing over the state of the Tower and Elaida's idiot policies that were making things worse. Then along comes this punk 19 year old, disregards her humiliating demotion, and does unconventional things to start mending the Tower. So they think that much more highly of her. But most of their support is because of the potential Egwene shows.

[TristanWebb]

I liked her between Tear and when she was raised. The WO Apprentice Egwene was the best, she had her own personality but her misandry was held in check. She got above herself a bit after Lanfear got burned, but she was beaten for it so it was ok. Then she went all 110% AS and nothing anyone did was good enough for her.

[XXX]

Attempts to dislike Egwene? Egwene is the ultimate AS. This comes with alot of baggage, much of which is very easy to dislike. Before she was Amrylin she was much easier to like, but the whole 'I hate Romanda and Lelaine guiding me. I have to be free to guide Rand' crap she pulled really got on my nerves. When she was back as a novice her actions were awesome, not allowing people to cow her is something I can respect, but her attitude towards men was still rediculous. Her treatment of Gawyn bordered on psychotic. Her belief that the AS are the be all and end all of power and everything has to be done her way is grating.

 

The problem with Egwene (again, all after being raised) is her PoVs. If you take her actions without the reasoning behind them, she is amazing. With the reasoning, she is just another AS trying to control a world that should be uniting behind the Dragon Reborn to fight the last battle, not bowing down to the AS.

 

 

Hit the nail on the head I think, her actions are great, mostly except for a few things I don't agree with, but her personal thoughts and reasoning are not. However if we did not have access to her head then she would be the greatest person in the world for her actions.

 

Oh also the Aes Sedai are so use to a strict order on how everything is done that when people don't follow that they don't know what to do. Egwene trys to act like an Aes Sedai sometimes but she doesn't do what an Aes Sedai should or what an Amyrlin should. Others to are the same, Aes Sedai don't impress them and so the Aes Sedai don't know what to do when that fails.

 

Actually with minor exceptions like the right to items of power etc she continues to behave as her predecessors did when the general power situation has changed. The WT is no longer the undisputed leader in Randland. It was in Siuan's time but it is no longer in Egwene's time.

[fionwe1987]

Attempts to dislike Egwene? Egwene is the ultimate AS. This comes with alot of baggage, much of which is very easy to dislike. Before she was Amrylin she was much easier to like, but the whole 'I hate Romanda and Lelaine guiding me. I have to be free to guide Rand' crap she pulled really got on my nerves. When she was back as a novice her actions were awesome, not allowing people to cow her is something I can respect, but her attitude towards men was still rediculous. Her treatment of Gawyn bordered on psychotic. Her belief that the AS are the be all and end all of power and everything has to be done her way is grating.

 

The problem with Egwene (again, all after being raised) is her PoVs. If you take her actions without the reasoning behind them, she is amazing. With the reasoning, she is just another AS trying to control a world that should be uniting behind the Dragon Reborn to fight the last battle, not bowing down to the AS.

 

 

Hit the nail on the head I think, her actions are great, mostly except for a few things I don't agree with, but her personal thoughts and reasoning are not. However if we did not have access to her head then she would be the greatest person in the world for her actions.

 

Oh also the Aes Sedai are so use to a strict order on how everything is done that when people don't follow that they don't know what to do. Egwene trys to act like an Aes Sedai sometimes but she doesn't do what an Aes Sedai should or what an Amyrlin should. Others to are the same, Aes Sedai don't impress them and so the Aes Sedai don't know what to do when that fails.

 

Actually with minor exceptions like the right to items of power etc she continues to behave as her predecessors did when the general power situation has changed. The WT is no longer the undisputed leader in Randland. It was in Siuan's time but it is no longer in Egwene's time.

It is hardly minor to allow "wilders" to not only organize, but train White Tower initiates. It isn't minor to actively recruit Novices, and scrape age from being a consideration for acceptance. It isn't minor to ask the Red Ajah to stop hunting male channelers and find another job.

 

And Egwene is hardly blind to the flaws of the Aes Sedai:

 

"Sorilea will dislike this news," Bair said, shaking her head. "She still had a hope that you would leave those fools in the White Tower and return to us."

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rhiod. In like manner, I cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

Notice that she said this after taking the Oaths, and there is no way around these statements. She agrees the Aes Sedai are fools, and she does not think that just because this is so, she can abandon her duty to them.

 

"I doubt the sisters would agree to that," Egwene said carefully. "But what might work would be to send young women, those still training, to study with you.

That was part of why my training was so effective; I wasn't yet set in the ways of the Aes Sedai."

 

So WO training can be effective in women not set in their way as Aes Sedai. There is an implicit insult there for Aes Sedai who are set in their ways.

 

Egwene smiled. She did want the Wise Ones to train in the Tower. There were many methods of channeling that the Aes Sedai did better than the Wise Ones. On the other hand, the Wise Ones were better about working together and, Egwene admitted reluctantly, with leadership.

 

Take these three quotes together, and you'd be hardpressed to see where Egwene is "110% Aes Sedai". She is less AS than anyone save Nynaeve. Thorughout the earlier series, we see quotes where she wishes she could simply send the Aes Sedai to penance under Wise One care. Or how silly the Aes Sedai system of ranking by OP strength is... and so on. I don't quote those since those were pre-Oath Rod, and people who dislike Egwene have historically not been convinced by those quotes.

 

But these quotes from ToM are conclusive. Egwene thinks the Aes Sedai are good with saidar, bad with leadership and working together, and basically a bunch of fools who she feels duty bound to lead.

[RandA lThor]

Egwene has found a good task. If she can keep all the Aes Sedai together, working with other channelers, she will be a major contributer to the Last Battle, whether you haters like it or not.

[randsc]

No one disputes that she will have a major role in the Last Battle. And I mean, like, NO ONE. I don't think I have ever seen anyone deny it.

 

Whether you fanbois like it or not.

[XXX]

 

Actually with minor exceptions like the right to items of power etc she continues to behave as her predecessors did when the general power situation has changed. The WT is no longer the undisputed leader in Randland. It was in Siuan's time but it is no longer in Egwene's time.

It is hardly minor to allow "wilders" to not only organize, but train White Tower initiates. It isn't minor to actively recruit Novices, and scrape age from being a consideration for acceptance. It isn't minor to ask the Red Ajah to stop hunting male channelers and find another job.

 

And Egwene is hardly blind to the flaws of the Aes Sedai:

 

 

 

None of this refutes my point about Egwene believing in the hype that the WT is the undisputed leader of Randland as it used to be in her predecessors time.

 

As for the Red Ajah, how exactly could they hunt male channelers without getting destroyed now that there is a nearly 1000 strong BT who are superior in fighting with the OP. Anyone with common sense can see that!!