Who is the most overrated character in the wheel of time?

[Sephie913]

the dragon reborn has been turned many times before according to jordan. What difference did it make?

 

the last time these guys were even worth the money they were getting paid for was when they were kicking the forces of light before the final desperate act of LTT to end the war of power. Forward 3000 years later and they faced a shepherder and bunch of farmboys and farmgirls and yet got their asses kicked like rookies every single time.

 

As for demandred, the last time he had a chance to lay down a marker he got his rinsed by a bald ashaman and his companions. Playing hide and seek for 13 books is not something i would associate with a man that was almost the dragon of the last age

the by his own choice is very important since it makes it less likely he can turn back to the light. And there is a special process in Shayol Ghul for channellers to do so, so there could be a very big difference.

 

Firstly, had to respond to your sig as soon as I saw it. DO is Eric Cartman? Explains how he's been trapped for so long--his fat butt couldn't wriggle out. I will give you this: "I had trollocs eat your parents" is only a step removed from "I made you eat your parents."

 

 

Secondly, and more seriously, being turned by 13x13 might not be so different than what was done to him over the course of the whole series. It enhances your negative qualities and mutes the positive. I'm not sure that it does anything toward "swearing to DO" so much as "makes victim WANT to swear to DO". That was what I got out of it, at least.

[Sheepherder]

I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

 

But they weren't waiting in line for him to take them out, they were doing what they were commanded to do. They were supposed to secure seats of power and sow chaos. In those regards they did pretty well. They took over a few cities, broke the white tower, unleashed the shaido on the wetlands, caused part of the dragon sworn's fanaticism, had Rand put in a box, and played a part in the seanchen opposition to Rand. They weren't really supposed to kill rand and that's really the only big thing they failed at doing. As I said before, most of those instances were only because someone else intervened to bail Rand out. They actually did a pretty good job of manipulating events in a world completely different from the one they were familiar with.

[Sephie913]

I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

 

But they weren't waiting in line for him to take them out, they were doing what they were commanded to do. They were supposed to secure seats of power and sow chaos. In those regards they did pretty well. They took over a few cities, broke the white tower, unleashed the shaido on the wetlands, caused part of the dragon sworn's fanaticism, had Rand put in a box, and played a part in the seanchen opposition to Rand. They weren't really supposed to kill rand and that's really the only big thing they failed at doing. As I said before, most of those instances were only because someone else intervened to bail Rand out. They actually did a pretty good job of manipulating events in a world completely different from the one they were familiar with.

 

Killing the others? Most of the Forsaken have had one character that they just couldn't stand. those characters are still alive. Verin was one of the biggest losses, and she took herself out. Herid Fel was one of the biggest before that.

 

Rand, Mat, Perrin--I get, because they've had protection up to book 8, and were friggin hard to pin down after that.

 

Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Thom... The list goes on and on.

 

And why in the Light is Alanna still alive, from DO's PoV? Cause Rand pain, simply, easily--and in fact, nudge him over that last little bit pre-VoG?

 

Other than taking out the threats they had permission to deal with, the Forsaken are fine. But with this alone, I'd almost call them laughable.

[Sheepherder]

On that point I'll agree with you. Hadn't thought about those intended kills and they were definitely failures.

[Mr Ares]

An oath to keep these oaths forever until the entire Hall releases you from it. I know they wouldnt have thiught about this then, but it would work now.

Prior to the series, there was no need as they didn't know people could be unbound. Since then, they've not only seen it's possible to unbind, we've also seen Mesaana's trick - so now, any DF could easily get around the OR by doing the same thing (if they are shown the trick or work it out for themselves). And that assumes that the AS themselves would agree to further Oaths being put on them.

 

I can't remember, did we ever find out exactly how the BA had their oaths removed? Was it the same oath rod, a different one, or something entirely different?

The BA used the WT's Oath Rod (as evidenced by Galina being unsure whether her Oaths on the Shaido OR could be removed by a different Rod).

[muddasssir]

Hi, people I am back just for few minutes but how can you possibly forget our dear old eggy I mean they do not come anymore overrated than her do they? It is just such a shame that we ar almost through four pages without mentioning her once!!!!!! Whatth world is coming too????????

[RandA lThor]

Actually, you just started the fifth page so we ar through four pages without egwene. The thing about Egwene is that she was able to do everything that the characters in the book. There are no rumors, more facts in the book.

 

And Egwene is definitely not overrated by fans. She is definitely underrated.

[Suttree]

And Egwene is definitely not overrated by fans. She is definitely underrated.

 

Amen. I mean when was the last time(has one ever existed?) there was an Egwene appreciation thread.

[RandA lThor]

I should start one and see what happens. Actually, I'm going to do that right now. Let's see what actually will happen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

May the Creator shelter your soul

[Axon]

Isshy/Moridin. I'm not kidding.

[Lacanos]

Mat. He's a fantastic character, but some people treat him as the character who makes WoT what it is.

[Durinax]

Mat. He's a fantastic character, but some people treat him as the character who makes WoT what it is.

+1 except I don't think he is that exceptional of a character either

[RandA lThor]

I think that mat is an excellent fighter, and he has the medallion working so he can take on channelers pretty well, so he is able to take on a lot of things. He also is able to command battles like a god and is able to do a lot of other things. I can understand why people think that he is so awesome. Also, he doesn't have any huge reponsilblity so he can be fun too. However, some extents of Mat love is just ridiculous.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think that mat is an excellent fighter, and he has the medallion working so he can take on channelers pretty well, so he is able to take on a lot of things. He also is able to command battles like a god and is able to do a lot of other things. I can understand why people think that he is so awesome. Also, he doesn't have any huge reponsilblity so he can be fun too. However, some extents of Mat love is just ridiculous.

Those things aren't why people love Mat. The love for him comes 99% from his personality.

 

If you don't like that kind of personality then all the love for Mat just won't make sense.

[RandA lThor]

I think that mat is an excellent fighter, and he has the medallion working so he can take on channelers pretty well, so he is able to take on a lot of things. He also is able to command battles like a god and is able to do a lot of other things. I can understand why people think that he is so awesome. Also, he doesn't have any huge reponsilblity so he can be fun too. However, some extents of Mat love is just ridiculous.

Those things aren't why people love Mat. The love for him comes 99% from his personality.

 

If you don't like that kind of personality then all the love for Mat just won't make sense.

 

that's what I meant by the he can be fun part.

[Jaedan_edhel]

What of an oath that says that I will never even think about serving the DO.

 

I think this would be very dangerous, besides that restricting anybody's freedom of thought would be immoral enough that only the Dark One would contemplate it. If Aes Sedai, indiviudally or together were to come up with any strategy to defeat the Dark One's minions, they would have to put themselves in the position of one of his servants. Just as a detective might think himself in the position of a murderer; s/he might have to think like a murderer, and understand a murderer. Similarly, the Aes Sedai would have to try and understand the DarkFriends, and think like them, in order to plan what they might do against them. To make any oath that would not restrict someone's imagination would be nearly impossible.

[fionwe1987]

Not to mention that even an Oath saying "I will never serve the Dark One" means that you get no Verin. No deep and rich insight into the working of the Shadow. No light thrown on their secret plans and motivations.

[Maleshub]

Not to mention that even an Oath saying "I will never serve the Dark One" means that you get no Verin. No deep and rich insight into the working of the Shadow. No light thrown on their secret plans and motivations.

 

But any oath on a binder can be removed. All it takes is "I forsake all my previous oaths" to undo all of it. It is a totally useless way to try and fight treachery!

[Vardar]

I normally just lurk, but I have to say I'm with Meeker on this one. Tear and other nations are less to blame for the act of their darkfriends because they would have a much harder time rooting them out. All Aes Sedai would have to do is add a 4th oath to never serve the dark one.

Such an oath would be infinitely more useful than one to not make weapons. Even easier...simply ask Sisters to declare that they are not dark friends after raising. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because they could change their minds later on...but it would weed out the vast majority.

 

This. Or hell, have a yearly "reswear the oaths and declare I'm not a Darkfriend" meeting. BAM, done and done.

 

Sure it's bad for the storyline, but it just further goes to show how stupid and ignorant the WT really is. For all their power, they act like middle school girls.

[Suttree]

This. Or hell, have a yearly "reswear the oaths and declare I'm not a Darkfriend" meeting. BAM, done and done.

 

We have already seen that method be exposed...it has been explained ad nauseum in this thread why the oaths would no little good in this instance. All of the oaths were a mistake and should be done away with as the WT/BT move forward.

[Thrasymachus]

Man, a lot of people are throwing around the suggestion of abusing the Oath Rod to cure all the Aes Sedai woes. Just re-swear, or add a new oath? Seriously? The Three Oaths have already halved the working age of Aes Sedai. Do we know whether being released from an Oath will restore the life the binding takes? I don't believe that's ever mentioned onscreen. What about re-swearing the same oath? We know the channelers feel them, after being released and re-swearing. For all we know, Egwene having all the Aes Sedai re-swear the Oaths may very well have taken 50 years off everyone's lives. That may have been worth it once, for the Great Purge, but too much is unknown about how the binder works to make regular swearing on it any kind of security measure. It's kinda funny that not screwing around with an ancient and poorly understood ter'angreal of obviously invasive and damaging power is somehow evidence of their stupidity and ignorance and that they act like middle school girls. Obviously, such powerful women of an ancient tradition need to be on the business end of a smooth, white rod that makes them feel funny inside much more often.

[1Brotherbill]

Garath Bryne or any one of the "Great Generals" or "Captains" or what ever else the call them. Really the only thing I see is that they are put in charge of armies. Which makes them great I guess. Makes you kind of wonder what kind of leaders outside of the main characters of the books are made of. Lets see.... Pretty much a bunch of idiots.

 

Lan proved that he was just as good as Mat at planning strategy in Cairhein. And Mat is just as good as Bryne and the others.

 

So Great Generals and Captains over rated.

[1Brotherbill]

Man, a lot of people are throwing around the suggestion of abusing the Oath Rod to cure all the Aes Sedai woes. Just re-swear, or add a new oath? Seriously? The Three Oaths have already halved the working age of Aes Sedai.

 

Another flaw with the books. The Black don't have the same oaths from the Oath Rod on them. So do they live longer then normal Aes Sedai? If they do then that would point to them as being Black. I don't think that the Oath Rod is what makes them die younger than the Kin. I think it might be the Accepted test that makes them die younger. As I recall passing the Accepted test forces you to be an Aes Sedai no matter how long it takes. The Kin was made up of a bunch of people that either failed the Accepted test or didn't make it that far as I recall.

[Suttree]

I don't think that the Oath Rod is what makes them die younger than the Kin.

 

We know it does...

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

 

Robert Jordan

No...now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder. It was used on criminals. If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance. One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.