Alanna bonding Rand

[Suttree]

Yeah, not sure if you missed it earlier but the AS bond requires a weave of spirit to compel and doesn't work on male channelers. It is rarely used and highly looked down upon however.

 

I don't think we can say for sure it doesn't work on male channelers. It might be strength-dependent, i.e. it doesn't work on Rand because he is much stronger than Alanna.

 

The Ashaman experimented widely with bonding and know much more about it than AS. Their bond with the "extra bit" can compel with just a though, channeler or no.

 

Technically the Aes Sedai did start experimenting around the same time, and they can also do a bond with the extra bit:

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweak­ing, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly.

 

Yeah I always thought that was just hypothetical musing. Didn't realize it was being put in to practice? That quote from RJ was post CoT after all.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Suttree

[Terez]

Yeah, I noticed, but I also noticed he used past tense.

[Suttree]

Yeah, I noticed, but I also noticed he used past tense.

 

How so?

 

Robert Jordan

Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai.

 

Edit: Or did you mean this part as past tense?

 

RJ

The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Suttree

[Terez]

The second bit. And come to think of it, it's a signing report anyway. I've noticed RJ do the same thing on book tours; if someone has missed something in the book, he doesn't usually point it out to them unless it's something major.

[78WARLOCK]

In regards to Allanna "controlling" Rand thru the bond, she had told Cadsuane that she "has tried but it was like trying to control an avalanch." ( I don't remember the exact quote ) and Cadsuane thought to her self that" knowing Allanna she did'nt think she would have had any better chance than she at controlling him"

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

In regards to Allanna "controlling" Rand thru the bond, she had told Cadsuane that she "has tried but it was like trying to control an avalanch." ( I don't remember the exact quote ) and Cadsuane thought to her self that" knowing Allanna she did'nt think she would have had any better chance than she at controlling him"

The quote for what she told the other Aes Sedai in Caemlyn is

"Have you ever attempted to uproot an oak tree with your bare hands, Kiruna? It was much the same."

[Damer Sedai]

It issuch an interesting contrast: amongst Aes Sedai Compulsion is viewed as an abomination, but Compelling via the Bond is not viewed in nearly the same light. In fact, it is the act of Bonding another against his will that is contemptable in Aes Sedai culture, not the subsequent use of said bond to compel, which seems to be a greater insult (LoC Ch10 Verin to Alanna). Or perhaps that's just Verin's opinion. Is it because a Warder (in typical cases) has already agreed to the bond, and as such has made his will subjective to his mistress? My impression from the early books, is that Compelling via the Bond is rarely used... and I hope that's true. I liked reading about Aes Sedai and their Warders a lot more back in the day when I was young and naive, blithely thinking they were a supportive team, with the Aes Sedai in the lead. Choosing to serve the Aes Sedai by swearing oaths is noble, but knowing the Warders have even less free will than they choose to give away, not being aware that they can be controlled by the One Power when the step out of line? Not so much.

 

 

Does anyone know if the warders are aware of Compelling via the Bond before they accept the oaths? I don't think so, but I am not sure if I have missed any mention one way or another in the texts or in or the RJ question and answer sessions.

 

 

Is the difference is that it because its more a method of persuasion? Alanna's references about trying Compel rand (LoC Ch 10, WH Ch 25?) seem to indicate no, a sort of complete control, at least in some less than extremely strong willed, seems acheivable. Is the crime of Compulsion so much worse is damage in that does to the psyche (see pretty much every chapter about Graendal)? Perhaps that is the difference for the Aes Sedai Certainly, we dont see a lot of it (and more in theory than in practice) until the later books when the stakes are becoming so high,and desperation is driving everyone's actions.

 

 

I think thats why Egwene is going to be one of the best Amilryns ever, beyond her amazing actions in healing the White Tower. Her attitude about compulsion of all sorts seems unwaivering, perhaps informed by her experience as a Damane. SHe shuts down Lelaine in her plans to alter the bond with regards to Ashaman, she set Logain free instead of gentling him or having him bonded, and her biggest issue (aside from that pesky Last Battle plan) with Rand is how to deal with the bonded sisters (and the sworn sisters who she is worried are subject to Compulsion). Sure, she wants to lead and have everyone fall in line behind her, but as 'bossy' as she can appear, she seems to understand how important it is the Aes Sedai cast off their Puppetmaster title, both in practice and in reputation.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Damer Sedai

[thisguy]

It issuch an interesting contrast: amongst Aes Sedai Compulsion is viewed as an abomination, but Compelling via the Bond is not viewed in nearly the same light. In fact, it is the act of Bonding another against his will that is contemptable in Aes Sedai culture, not the subsequent use of said bond to compel, which seems to be a greater insult (LoC Ch10 Verin to Alanna). Or perhaps that's just Verin's opinion. Is it because a Warder (in typical cases) has already agreed to the bond, and as such has made his will subjective to his mistress? My impression from the early books, is that Compelling via the Bond is rarely used... and I hope that's true. I liked reading about Aes Sedai and their Warders a lot more back in the day when I was young and naive, blithely thinking they were a supportive team, with the Aes Sedai in the lead. Choosing to serve the Aes Sedai by swearing oaths is noble, but knowing the Warders have even less free will than they choose to give away, not being aware that they can be controlled by the One Power when the step out of line? Not so much.

 

 

Does anyone know if the warders are aware of Compelling via the Bond before they accept the oaths? I don't think so, but I am not sure if I have missed any mention one way or another in the texts or in or the RJ question and answer sessions.

 

 

Is the difference is that it because its more a method of persuasion? Alanna's references about trying Compel rand (LoC Ch 10, WH Ch 25?) seem to indicate no, a sort of complete control, at least in some less than extremely strong willed, seems acheivable. Is the crime of Compulsion so much worse is damage in that does to the psyche (see pretty much every chapter about Graendal)? Perhaps that is the difference for the Aes Sedai Certainly, we dont see a lot of it (and more in theory than in practice) until the later books when the stakes are becoming so high,and desperation is driving everyone's actions.

 

 

I think thats why Egwene is going to be one of the best Amilryns ever, beyond her amazing actions in healing the White Tower. Her attitude about compulsion of all sorts seems unwaivering, perhaps informed by her experience as a Damane. SHe shuts down Lelaine in her plans to alter the bond with regards to Ashaman, she set Logain free instead of gentling him or having him bonded, and her biggest issue (aside from that pesky Last Battle plan) with Rand is how to deal with the bonded sisters (and the sworn sisters who she is worried are subject to Compulsion). Sure, she wants to lead and have everyone fall in line behind her, but as 'bossy' as she can appear, she seems to understand how important it is the Aes Sedai cast off their Puppetmaster title, both in practice and in reputation.

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

[Damer Sedai]

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

 

Thanks a lot thisguy, you helped a lot. It lead me to this, whaich for some reason slipped my mind.

 

Moraine:

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."

"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will not allow you to return to your equally useless private war in the Blight. The war we fight is the same war, if you could only see it so, and I will see that you fight it to some purpose. Neither vengeance nor an unburied death in the Blight will do."

 

...

 

For a moment he studied his hands, large and square. "I had never thought," he said slowly, "that I might not be the first of us to die. Somehow, even at the worst, it always seemed . . . ." Abruptly he scrubbed his hands against each other. "If there is a chance I might be given like a pet lapdog, I would at least like to know to whom I am being given."

"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle. "

"Myrelle." He grimaced. "Yes, she would have to be Green, or else some slip of a girl just raised to full sisterhood."

"If Myrelle can keep her three Gaidin in line, perhaps she has a chance to manage you. Though she would like to keep you, I know, she has promised to pass your bond to another when she finds one who suits you better."

"So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a - a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder's bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!"

"It is done, and I will not undo it."

"The Light blind me, if I am to be passed from hand to hand, do you at least have some idea in whose hand I will end?"

"What I do is for your own good, and perhaps it may be for another's, as well. It may be that Myrelle will find a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood - was that not what you said? - who needs a Warder hardened in battle and wise in the ways of the world, a slip of a girl who may need someone who will throw her into a pond. You have much to offer, Lan, and to see it wasted in an unmarked grave, or left to the ravens, when it could go to a woman who needs it would be worse than the sin of which the Whitecloaks prate. Yes, I think she will have need of you."

Lan's eyes widened slightly; for him it was the same as another man gasping in shocked surmise. She had seldom seen him so off balance. He opened his mouth twice before he spoke. "And who do you have in mind for this - "

She cut him off. "Are you sure the bond does not chafe, Lan Gaidin? Do you realize for the first time, only now, the strength of that bond, the depth of it? You could end with some budding White, all logic and no heart, or with a young Brown who sees you as nothing more than a pair of hands to carry her books and sketches. I can hand you where I will, like a parcel - or a lapdog - and you can do no more than go. Are you sure it does not chafe?"

 

TGH, Ch22

 

 

She has a purpose in saying this (delving into why he supported Rand in his defiance of the Amilryn early in TGH), but I had forgotten that this was the only time I really hated Moraine (and only the first time I read it, really). While we suspected it at the time, and now know for certain that Moiraine had only Lan's best interests at heart, this was pretty cruel. Dictatorial, even. It seem that kind of control even with the best intentions can seem a violation, especially when their previous working relationship had been exemplary. I dont know why I forget that in many ways, Moiraine is as much a Hard Woman making Hard Decisions as Cadsuane. Doing wrong for the greater good.

 

But at least the Warders know about it, and seemingly accept it as a possibility. THat makes it at least in part a quirk of the Warder culture , and less an hidden tool for suppressing the free will of the bonded, in comparison to the Ashaman bond and Compulsion (and much, much farther away from the Ad'am, which strips ones humanity)

Edited September 16, 2012 by Damer Sedai

[thisguy]

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

 

Thanks a lot thisguy, you helped a lot. It lead me to this, whaich for some reason slipped my mind.

 

Moraine:

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."

"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will not allow you to return to your equally useless private war in the Blight. The war we fight is the same war, if you could only see it so, and I will see that you fight it to some purpose. Neither vengeance nor an unburied death in the Blight will do."

 

...

 

For a moment he studied his hands, large and square. "I had never thought," he said slowly, "that I might not be the first of us to die. Somehow, even at the worst, it always seemed . . . ." Abruptly he scrubbed his hands against each other. "If there is a chance I might be given like a pet lapdog, I would at least like to know to whom I am being given."

"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle. "

"Myrelle." He grimaced. "Yes, she would have to be Green, or else some slip of a girl just raised to full sisterhood."

"If Myrelle can keep her three Gaidin in line, perhaps she has a chance to manage you. Though she would like to keep you, I know, she has promised to pass your bond to another when she finds one who suits you better."

"So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a - a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder's bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!"

"It is done, and I will not undo it."

"The Light blind me, if I am to be passed from hand to hand, do you at least have some idea in whose hand I will end?"

"What I do is for your own good, and perhaps it may be for another's, as well. It may be that Myrelle will find a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood - was that not what you said? - who needs a Warder hardened in battle and wise in the ways of the world, a slip of a girl who may need someone who will throw her into a pond. You have much to offer, Lan, and to see it wasted in an unmarked grave, or left to the ravens, when it could go to a woman who needs it would be worse than the sin of which the Whitecloaks prate. Yes, I think she will have need of you."

Lan's eyes widened slightly; for him it was the same as another man gasping in shocked surmise. She had seldom seen him so off balance. He opened his mouth twice before he spoke. "And who do you have in mind for this - "

She cut him off. "Are you sure the bond does not chafe, Lan Gaidin? Do you realize for the first time, only now, the strength of that bond, the depth of it? You could end with some budding White, all logic and no heart, or with a young Brown who sees you as nothing more than a pair of hands to carry her books and sketches. I can hand you where I will, like a parcel - or a lapdog - and you can do no more than go. Are you sure it does not chafe?"

 

TGH, Ch22

 

 

She has a purpose in saying this (delving into why he supported Rand in his defiance of the Amilryn early in TGH), but I had forgotten that this was the only time I really hated Moraine (and only the first time I read it, really). While we suspected it at the time, and now know for certain that Moiraine had only Lan's best interests at heart, this was pretty cruel. Dictatorial, even. It seem that kind of control even with the best intentions can seem a violation, especially when their previous working relationship had been exemplary. I dont know why I forget that in many ways, Moiraine is as much a Hard Woman making Hard Decisions as Cadsuane. Doing wrong for the greater good.

 

But at least the Warders know about it, and seemingly accept it as a possibility. THat makes it at least in part a quirk of the Warder culture , and less an hidden tool for suppressing the free will of the bonded, in comparison to the Ashaman bond and Compulsion (and much, much farther away from the Ad'am, which strips ones humanity)

No problem. During my reread I come upon parts of the story I had completely forgotten about all the time. Yes, I agree, messed up thing that Moiraine did but one of the kindest things done in the book, too. She saved him for the one woman he's loved (from what we know). Unless there was another possible way to save him, it was one of the few times in the story that someone being made to do something (whether through compulsion or plain old bullying didn't bother me) - at least, someone doing it to one of the main characters.

[thisguy]

I don't know if there's a thread on this. Didn't see one in the search so grabbed the first Alanna thread I saw:

 

Is it possible Alanna disappeared from the Stone of Tear by a saidin woven (weaved?) gateway? How many people think she's a DF? Thanks.

[GladAlanna_d13s]

just re read this series  a lot of you here condoning mind_r4p3/r4p3

 

  

On 4/27/2012 at 11:22 PM, Eternal Phoenix said:

Honestly it's what he needed at the time, I'm pretty sure he realised it,

 

his taveren ness that caused it in the first place

 

being bonded against his will making him trust even less was needed?  him being taveren didn't cause it.

 

  

On 4/28/2012 at 3:08 PM, gloweye said:

I just love alanna...if WoT were real, I'd want to be her Warder... It started on my 2nd read. She a very infeelable woman. And she is genuine concerned about him - a rare trait among AS.

could you not white knight the rap1st? thanks

 

  

On 4/27/2012 at 11:40 PM, doihavepotential said:

"pattern making"  

no.. no it isnt

 

  

On 5/2/2012 at 2:50 AM, TheDuchess said:

" Maybe the pattern forced Alanna to it " 

no.. no it didnt

 

  

On 5/2/2012 at 3:14 AM, Barid Bel Medar said:

 "Also that the pattern probably nudged it a bit, with him being Ta'veren it was likely forced."

the pattern didn't do it.

 

  

On 5/2/2012 at 3:14 AM, Barid Bel Medar said:

 the strongest channeler in the world

the only accurate part of your statement. he wasnt insane he had another man in his head (mentally) strength to resist is will based. and channeler males have ability to resist compulsion

 

  

On 5/2/2012 at 3:14 AM, Barid Bel Medar said:

"but it does help redeem her." 

 

forced bonding  doesn't redeem forced bonding just because you get a little stregth  fyi  he would have a bond even with out her forcing him against his will

 

  

On 8/16/2012 at 8:41 AM, nolirion said:

"she was right on the point Rand needed a bound" 

"she was right on the point Rand needed a bound" no actually. considering he would still have one without her forcing it on him against his will your statement is both incorrect and pointless

[DojoToad]

@GladAlanna_d13s

 

You have some very strong feelings about what was said 9 years ago...

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, GladAlanna_d13s said:

Spoiler

just re read this series  a lot of you here condoning mind_r4p3/r4p3

 

  

being bonded against his will making him trust even less was needed?  him being taveren didn't cause it.

 

  

could you not white knight the rap1st? thanks

 

  

no.. no it isnt

 

  

no.. no it didnt

 

  

the pattern didn't do it.

 

  

the only accurate part of your statement. he wasnt insane he had another man in his head (mentally) strength to resist is will based. and channeler males have ability to resist compulsion

 

  

forced bonding  doesn't redeem forced bonding just because you get a little stregth  fyi  he would have a bond even with out her forcing him against his will

 

  

"she was right on the point Rand needed a bound" no actually. considering he would still have one without her forcing it on him against his will your statement is both incorrect and pointless

 

For future reference, you can quote multiple people, in one post.
What you're doing constitutes spam.

[SingleMort]

To be honest I always thought Rand didn't seek any kind of revenge or restitution against being bonded against his will was because he has a bit of problem punishing or taking actions against women. I know some people will now point out the exceptions to the rule but you have to admit Rand is far more lenient to women who cross him. He seems to have a horror of hurting women even it might be justified. In some ways you could call this an admirable quality but I think it seems a little bit old fashioned in 2021. 

[Dedicated]

7 hours ago, SingleMort said:

To be honest I always thought Rand didn't seek any kind of revenge or restitution against being bonded against his will was because he has a bit of problem punishing or taking actions against women. I know some people will now point out the exceptions to the rule but you have to admit Rand is far more lenient to women who cross him. He seems to have a horror of hurting women even it might be justified. In some ways you could call this an admirable quality but I think it seems a little bit old fashioned in 2021. 

 

I agree that there was a little bit of this, but I think it was more of him having bigger fish to fry. He was really focused on leaving something behind and changing society for the better while preparing for the Last Battle. It just wasn't a priority and would have compromised his preparations IMO. 

[Sabio]

We know from the Companion it was Verin who manipulated Alanna into doing it, Alanna was still recovering from the loss of her warder and Verin took advantage of that.  Also how would Rand get revenge on Alanna?  First he needs to keep it a secret, secondly now that he is bound to her he has to becareful what he does, anything done to her impacts him.

[Gabriel Kross]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:59 AM, GladAlanna_d13s said:

just re read this series  a lot of you here condoning mind_r4p3/r4p3

 

  

being bonded against his will making him trust even less was needed?  him being taveren didn't cause it.

 

  

could you not white knight the rap1st? thanks

 

  

no.. no it isnt

 

  

no.. no it didnt

 

  

the pattern didn't do it.

 

  

the only accurate part of your statement. he wasnt insane he had another man in his head (mentally) strength to resist is will based. and channeler males have ability to resist compulsion

 

  

forced bonding  doesn't redeem forced bonding just because you get a little stregth  fyi  he would have a bond even with out her forcing him against his will

 

  

"she was right on the point Rand needed a bound" no actually. considering he would still have one without her forcing it on him against his will your statement is both incorrect and pointless

Firstly, no one is in fact condoning it. 

Secondly, it was infact something he needed in the end because it was only through the bond with Alanna that he found where he needed to be.

Thirdly, why dredge up a topic from 9 years ago?

[Holyheretic]

I feel like what's really messed up. Is that no one seems to think what alanna did was wrong and tell her she did wrong. Verin was like oh well. It's the gender hypocrisy on the re reads that really ruin books I always skip the girls parts on re reads now 

[Andra]

6 hours ago, Holyheretic said:

I feel like what's really messed up. Is that no one seems to think what alanna did was wrong and tell her she did wrong. Verin was like oh well. It's the gender hypocrisy on the re reads that really ruin books I always skip the girls parts on re reads now 

Actually, quite a few people did exactly that.  Some even using language that equated it to rape.

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, her outward criticism was primarily that it made her job harder.  But she didn't skimp on the other bit either.

 

Verin has reasons to react the way she does, but she doesn't dismiss it either.

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Andra said:

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, her outward criticism was primarily that it made her job harder. 

 

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, she implied that it would have been her job to bond Rand...

[Andra]

3 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Cadsuane being Cadsuane, she implied that it would have been her job to bond Rand...

Actually, if I remember correctly, she thought that would be a really bad idea.

[EmreY]

31 minutes ago, Andra said:

Actually, if I remember correctly, she thought that would be a really bad idea.

 

She did, though probably because it was Alanna, and though she apparently doesn't come out and say it (as I thought) she has given the issue some thought, and would ask Alanna to relinquish the bond to her if she believed it would help control Rand.

 

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 19 (the chapter immediately following the introduction of my least favourite Aes Sedai):

Quote

What Cadsuane thought of the answers was impossible to say, except once, when she learned that Alanna had bonded al’Thor, and how. Her mouth compressed to a thin line and she frowned a hole though the wall, but while everyone else expressed disgust, Merana thought of Cadsuane saying she had considered taking another Warder herself.

 

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12

Quote

Unshed tears glistened in Alanna's eyes.  "In my place, you would have done the same!"

 

Cadsuane scowled over the cup at her.  She might have... the Light help her, she might have, had she believed it would help her reach her goal.  Now, she longer considered even making Alanna pass the bond to her.  Alanna had proved how useless that was in controlling him."

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by EmreY