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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
ArthurOysgelt

Inconsistency in the Description of the Shadow's Workings

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I read the interview in which Robert Jordan explained why the Forsaken were ineffective in the battle at Shadar Logoth, and I find that it makes sense. However, why are all of the Shadow's minions and efforts so pathetically useless?

 

The Dark One wants chaos - okay, why not order his minions to become serial killers who kill at random? That should be guaranteed to cause more chaos than what they've been doing so far, and, in my opinion, it would certainly be more threatening to people who walk in the Light than the stupid schemes that have been going on so far. Granted, Graendal and Demandred had some significant successes, and I guess Mesaana and Aran'gar were doing a good job breaking the White Tower, but still...

 

Why hadn't the Forsaken balefired Perrin long ago? Seriously, how difficult could it be for Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedien, or even Moridin using the True Power to create a gateway into a hill overlooking Perrin's encampment in any of books 8-13, and simply balefire his tent? Moridin and Lanfear know how to track the ta'averen, so it's not like it's hard to find him.

 

Why haven't the Forsaken simply been assigned to gateway into random cities and rain chaos and destruction for a few minutes, and then jump out? Who could stop those kinds of hit-and-run attacks, even with wards?

 

It just seems like the Shadow has this enormous network that can be called upon at any time by the Forsaken to do specific tasks, and the Forsaken, particularly Moridin, simply sit around and scheme.

 

What have Lanfear and Moghedien been doing for the past 6 books?

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because murdering everyone wouldn't cause chaos if they knew it was the shadow. That's part of the reason why they scheme, is to cause suspicion amongst friends and turn people from the lght into shadow. not just kill them

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Because the Forsaken care more about their own power and out-maneuvering their fellow Forsaken than actually causing damage to the Light.

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Also hindsight, a writer can imagine X amount of things and we the collective fanbase can see so many more nasty twists and turns RJ could have taken.

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Because if the Forsaken did the logical thing (link up, then travel around Balefiring all of the Light's main heroes) then the series would have been very short and boring.

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Demandred thinks to himself: Why should I risk anything to personally Balefire a ta'veren, when Graendal might do it?

 

Graendal thinks to herself: Why should I risk anything to personally Balefire a ta'veren, when Demandred might do it?

 

Ishamael/Moridin thinks to himself: Why should I risk anyone else becoming Nae'blis, when that means less chance of using the Dragon Reborn to the Shadow's own benefit? ---->Ishy/Morry dying means someone else has to lead the forces of the Shadow.

Edited by Nightstrike

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While it would create some temporary chaos if they just gateway in... go nuts, then gateway out it would pretty much unite everyone against them. What they are doing now, they are still creating problems but also doing so ambiguously so the general populace doesn't necessarily blame all of the problems on the shadow.

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I don't think the Shadow's strategy consists of direct attack against the Light. I think the primary objective is to turn the Dragon by making him nihilistic and wish for death.... and by extension kill reality itself, thereby freeing Shai'tan.

The Forsaken and Darkfriends, bar Moridin, don't seem to realize this is the end goal and that they are expendable playing pieces.

 

But turning the Dragon in the past resulted in a "draw" so there must be more to it.

 

I wonder sometimes if killing Rand would prevent the Last Battle from taking place at all, since he seems so centrally important to everything.

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the reason the shadow has seemed generally ineffectual is that we haven't really seen mass dealing between various nationalities

 

for example the Illianers hate Tairens (and vice versa)

Cairhein and Andor dont especially get along

Andor and Murandy hate/distrust each other

everyone distrusts teh children of the light

 

 

in fom I think we will see the true effectiveness of the shadow

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Seemingly unrelated, but with Fain and the different evil in Shadar Logoth why has the Shadow been so fervent in obtaining this madman? A Pseudonym was saying that maybe the primary objective of the Shadow IS turning the Dragon (which perhaps keeps the Wheel turning no matter the outcome) and I agree with this, but who is the individual controlling the Shadow to follow through with this plan and what are their motivations (exactly how far does the Dark One touch the world for him to give orders? Maybe the DO is just a reflection of an entity seeping into the 'real world'?

 

To continue with the Fain idea, it has been said that SL's evil is old and familiar but could it be the case that Fain's existence is detrimental/essential to their success somehow? Perhaps he sets off the balance in the battle between the dark and the light (acting as a twilight/dawn/nothingness figure) in some manner?

Edited by From the Isle of Madmen

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they don't want people to know what's going on. If they went and started mass killing people people would know the Forsaken were back or have an idea. By quietly killing people here and there and making people distrust each other and create chaos that way. By manipulating people, it can cause much more problems then just going around killing. In the last book or two though, Tarmon Gai'don has begun so they are becoming more aggressive such as going after Mat and Perrin. Rand is a special case since Moridin has something planned for his fate

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If the forsaken were smart as they supposedly were in the age of legends, they would not be a single light character standing by now. Everyone would be dead.

 

As it is the forsaken have been dumbed down by jordan. It's one of his biggest mistakes as a writer. The bad guys are useless and after 13 books any sense of dread and villainy has long evaporated.

 

It will be a hollow victory in AMOL because these guys are just cartoon villains

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If the forsaken were smart as they supposedly were in the age of legends, they would not be a single light character standing by now. Everyone would be dead.

 

As it is the forsaken have been dumbed down by jordan. It's one of his biggest mistakes as a writer. The bad guys are useless and after 13 books any sense of dread and villainy has long evaporated.

 

It will be a hollow victory in AMOL because these guys are just cartoon villains

 

Just wondering, do you have an issue with how much RJ dumbs down characters around Egwene as well? To me it is one of his shortcomings as an author. He employs it all too frequently.

Edited by Suttree

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I don't know if it can be called "dumbing down" characters. I would call it "dimming" them down. For example, we get a DO - Demandred PoV to sow chaos in the world; but we don't get anything directed at Moridin after two colossal failures (cleansing the Taint and changing the weather). It is not a criticism; but a wish for more insight on the thinking of the Shadow and DO.

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DO doesn't need to direct Moridin. Brandon Sanderson has said many times that the DO fully trusts Moridin to get things done so he has enough confidence that Moridin will fix mistakes. We've seen Moridin punish those who have been failing.

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I'm also quite confused by what you guys are calling "dimming" down the villains. The Shadow has had a clear motive this whole series. They aren't out to go make large slaughters all over the world. That wouldn't prove anything. Their goal has been to manipulate and try and turn Rand while at the same time put the world in chaos so they aren't ready for Tarmon Gai'don. The different nations being at each others throats and Rand going insane makes it easier for one big decisive victory and slaughter for the Shadow during Tarmon Gai'don.

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It is a wish to get more Shadow PoV's, not more action. To get to know how they think and interact; what the DO is thinking or conveying to his Chosen; and how he is reacting to the constant balefiring of his commanders. Also, who commands his armies? We have Rodel defending Maradon; but who is the general leading the attack against him? It cannot be a simple Fade!

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Gotta remember that the Shadow have their own set of prophecies directing and guiding them, knowing what those are might explain some of their decisions.

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If the forsaken were smart as they supposedly were in the age of legends, they would not be a single light character standing by now. Everyone would be dead.

 

As it is the forsaken have been dumbed down by jordan. It's one of his biggest mistakes as a writer. The bad guys are useless and after 13 books any sense of dread and villainy has long evaporated.

 

It will be a hollow victory in AMOL because these guys are just cartoon villains

 

Just wondering, do you have an issue with how much RJ dumbs down characters around Egwene as well? To me it is one of his shortcomings as an author. He employs it all too frequently.

If the forsaken were smart as they supposedly were in the age of legends, they would not be a single light character standing by now. Everyone would be dead.

 

As it is the forsaken have been dumbed down by jordan. It's one of his biggest mistakes as a writer. The bad guys are useless and after 13 books any sense of dread and villainy has long evaporated.

 

It will be a hollow victory in AMOL because these guys are just cartoon villains

 

Just wondering, do you have an issue with how much RJ dumbs down characters around Egwene as well? To me it is one of his shortcomings as an author. He employs it all too frequently.

N0W I have seen everything Thank you very much for saying that Suttree

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What we needed throughout the series were more Forsaken POVs. I agree with some saying that doing anything obvious would unite the world against them rather than sowing disunity, but the tension has been lost throughout the series. We need more direct insight into the Chaos that the Forsaken have caused. There is not enough tension in the series.

 

And please don't tell me all the things that the Forsaken have done. I myself am aware of it. We need more showing.

Edited by Agitel

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It's a pretty common problem in books that give their characters godlike powers. When you can teleport around the world and destroy anything in eyesight within a second, it's kind of hard to come up with genuine conflict and drama.

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The only Forsaken that haven't turned up as bumbling idiots were Rahvin, Ishy and Demandred. The rest were just brain-dead numb-nuts. They either planned stupidly, (Graendal) let their emotions get carried away (Lanfear, Semi) etc etc.

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