What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Kahsm]

[. . .]

 

Dude I miss your posts on this subject. Honestly the Egwene-bashing threads just aren't any fun without your participation. I'm not joking when I say that any thread I open here I always press ctrl + f and search for your name.

 

We haven't had many Egwene threads in the past while. Likely due to that non hijacking rule... or just the lack of anything to talk about with TOM so far behind us and AMoL so far ahead... And I don't think randsc comments on anything else.

[David Selig]

I didn't necessarily say they had to let mat beat them. I also pointed out just the idea of being nice to him, of repaying him in ANY way galled them -- ANY way.

That applies to Nynaeve, but certainly not to Elayne.

 

Yes Egwene did bad shit. But she confessed to the people who she did bad shit too, and as I pointed out they are not forgiving folk. If they felt she had to pay more than she did to "balance" her honour, they would have done it.

 

You cannot be overly offended on behalf of characters who have explicitly been apologized too, "paid off", and themselves chosen to let it go.

Good thing is that I am not offended on behalf of those people then. ON the other hand, I am offended on behalf of Nynaeve and Elayne, who Egwene treated poorly to cover her lies and never even considered apologising for it.

 

So no, you cannot say she disrespects them. Her actions say otherwise. You can however see how much disrespect Elayne and Nynaeve have for Mat, or for men in general. Aghast at the very IDEA of making up for a wrong they admitted to.

 

Plus, Elayne's motivation is to get Avi to respect her. Not to make things right with Mat. I mean come on! And even her motivation to get Avi, supposidly a sister to her, would never get Elayne to go as far as Egwene did. It's quite clear how much more stoic and humble (when appropriate) Egwene is than Elayne.

You do realise how ironic this is since Egwene has yet to apologise to Mat and have never even considered doing it, right? Even though she was a much closer friend to him than Nynaeve and Egwene, which makes her ingratitude to him worse at the time he came to rescue them from the Stone dungeons. And as I mentioned before, she never considered apologising to her best friends for bullying them to cover her lies.

 

Yeah, Elayne apologised to Mat mostly because Avi wanted her to. But later on in ACOS she apologised on her own and was totally sincere.

 

Not sure where you get the part in bold from. Remember when Elayne had to get naked in front of Taim and his Asha'man, the Sea Folk representatives, Dyelin and the palace servants to get the Wise Ones to perform the first-sister ceremony. It's not a beating, sure, but it's a pretty big deal for a Queen especially.

[Kahsm]

Yes Egwene did bad shit. But she confessed to the people who she did bad shit too, and as I pointed out they are not forgiving folk. If they felt she had to pay more than she did to "balance" her honour, they would have done it.

 

You cannot be overly offended on behalf of characters who have explicitly been apologized too, "paid off", and themselves chosen to let it go.

Good thing is that I am not offended on behalf of those people then. ON the other hand, I am offended on behalf of Nynaeve and Elayne, who Egwene treated poorly to cover her lies and never even considered apologising for it.

 

You just said...

On the other hand, Egwene freely agree to obey the Wise Ones during her training and then repeatedly and intentionally broker her promise to the Wise Ones, which is a really big deal in Randland, especially among the Aiel. Totally different situation.

Which is what I was replying to. It had nothing to do with Elayne. You're just grasping at straws now. Your point that the Wise One's should still be pissed at Egwene, which is why people don't like her is wrong. Give up the point.

 

If you want to make a case for how Egwene treats Elayne, then do that.

 

So no, you cannot say she disrespects them. Her actions say otherwise. You can however see how much disrespect Elayne and Nynaeve have for Mat, or for men in general. Aghast at the very IDEA of making up for a wrong they admitted to.

 

Plus, Elayne's motivation is to get Avi to respect her. Not to make things right with Mat. I mean come on! And even her motivation to get Avi, supposidly a sister to her, would never get Elayne to go as far as Egwene did. It's quite clear how much more stoic and humble (when appropriate) Egwene is than Elayne.

You do realise how ironic this is since Egwene has yet to apologise to Mat and have never even considered doing it, right? Even though she was a much closer friend to him than Nynaeve and Egwene, which makes her ingratitude to him worse at the time he came to rescue them from the Stone dungeons. And as I mentioned before, she never considered apologising to her best friends for bullying them to cover her lies.

 

Yeah, Elayne apologised to Mat mostly because Avi wanted her to. But later on in ACOS she apologised on her own and was totally sincere.

 

Not sure where you get the part in bold from. Remember when Elayne had to get naked in front of Taim and his Asha'man, the Sea Folk representatives, Dyelin and the palace servants to get the Wise Ones to perform the first-sister ceremony. It's not a beating, sure, but it's a pretty big deal for a Queen especially.

 

Being naked is hardly the same as debasing yourself to someone willingly. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Elayne whats to show how proud and strong and unflappable she is as queen. If Elayne was beaten, she'd take it stoically I'm sure, but she wouldn't allow someone do it out of respect to another culture (not her own). She doesn't have that sort of respect for others, she just doesn't. She's Andor's queen and that makes her focused. It's not a bad thing, but it is a difference between the girls. Egwene is, by design, more cultured and accepting of people's differences.

 

And what exactly does Egwene need to apologize to Mat for? The rescue? She wasn't there when her retardedness was made clear to the other two. So you cannot say Egwene is worse when no one has pointed out a wrong she committed a long time ago. So you can't just assume Egwene would have the same awful reaction Nynaeve and Elayne had.

 

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Kael Pyralis

[Ala Rubra]

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.

 

Any kind of moral victory there is kind of mitigated by the fact that Egwene, at that time, is using him and planning to use his army (and doing it not by manipulating Mat's negative qualities, but by manipulating his integrity).

 

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

 

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

 

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

 

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

 

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.

 

Please stop. You're just making your side look bad.

[Kahsm]

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.

 

Any kind of moral victory there is kind of mitigated by the fact that Egwene, at that time, is using him and planning to use his army (and doing it not by manipulating Mat's negative qualities, but by manipulating his integrity).

 

 

You mean the exact same way Elayne does in her contest for the crown when they camp outside the walls? And I don't even see how this is "manipulation". Mat was there for Elayne, so he followed her. And he told Talmanes to stay with the Aes Sedai. The fact that Egwene used it to her advantage is just smart. It's not manipulative.... manipulative would suggest she forced them into something they wouldn't normally want to do using some sort of trickery.

[Dbob]

Both Egwene and Elayne are manipulative, but then so are just about every woman and every other man in the books. Such is WOT. Egwene used to really bother me, for general man v. women pointlessness that permeates just about all of the characters. She's just a bit more egregious than most. But she's wasn't my least favorite female Character.

 

That said, I didn't really start to hate on her until her incredibly improbable rise to master of the universe in her own mind. One of my main issues with WOT is the incredibly short span of time in which a few teenagers from the ass end of beyond become world spanning rulers. Rand gets an out, because of the whole Taveren-ancient-genius-in-my-mind thingy; but Egwene doesn't have anything so useful to fall back on. It would have been a lot easier to swallow if the plot had given her more time to mature, and didn't just seem to hand her the tower through a series of events each one more impossible than the last, all the while stacked up against enemies each one more cardboard than the last.I give Elaida a pass, she was set up by the author.

 

Plus Eggy falls hard into every pointless arrogance the AS have been clutching to their collective bosoms these past 3000 years.

[bobarose]

shes a bitch thats why shes the boss. she has a job like the president no time for friends or fun.sadly shes good at the bitch thing.

[David Selig]

You just said...

On the other hand, Egwene freely agree to obey the Wise Ones during her training and then repeatedly and intentionally broker her promise to the Wise Ones, which is a really big deal in Randland, especially among the Aiel. Totally different situation.

Which is what I was replying to. It had nothing to do with Elayne. You're just grasping at straws now. Your point that the Wise One's should still be pissed at Egwene, which is why people don't like her is wrong. Give up the point.

 

If you want to make a case for how Egwene treats Elayne, then do that.

No, my point was that Egwene allowing to be beaten up for her transgressions is a totally different case than Elayne and Nynaeve allowing themselves to be beaten up by Mat because what she did was much worse by Randland and Aiel standards and mat is not Aiel. That's all. I never said that the Wise Ones should still be pissed off at her and that's why people should hate Egwene. In fact, I think the Wise One's extreme caution in training Egwene was somewhat silly - if she wants to risk her own skin, that's her choice, and with the Last Battle around the corner, there was no time to waste. So her lies to the Wise One are not a problem for me me - she paid for them more than enough and was forgiven by them.

 

Being naked is hardly the same as debasing yourself to someone willingly. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Elayne whats to show how proud and strong and unflappable she is as queen. If Elayne was beaten, she'd take it stoically I'm sure, but she wouldn't allow someone do it out of respect to another culture (not her own). She doesn't have that sort of respect for others, she just doesn't. She's Andor's queen and that makes her focused. It's not a bad thing, but it is a difference between the girls. Egwene is, by design, more cultured and accepting of people's differences.

Wait, what? Elayne got naked in public because she wanted "to show how proud and strong and unflappable she is as queen"? Why doesn't she do it more often then? ;)

 

It's clear that was something she didn't like doing but had to because she wanted Aviedha as first-sister and had enough respect for Aiel's customs to go along with everything they wanted of her and accepted the obligations she had to keep after that (allowing the Wise Ones who participated in the ceremony free access to the Royal Palace, etc).

 

And what exactly does Egwene need to apologize to Mat for? The rescue? She wasn't there when her retardedness was made clear to the other two.

Of course about the rescue. And no, she wasn't there, but most likely she was told what happened between the other two and Mat since she was receiving reports from them how things are going in Ebou Dar.

 

On the other hand, Egwene did give Mat a heartfelt thanks when he bowed to her before they left to hunt the bowl. So when it came to recognizing a good deed on-the-spot from a man, or from mat specifically, Egwene is the winner.

You picked pretty much the only example of Egwene doing this the whole series (and even for that she had partly a motive to manipulate Mat) and declare her "the winner". Since you keep comparing her to Elayne - let's do the count for her and Mat. Even if we discount her apology to him when Aviendha told her to do it, we have her thanking mat for finding the Bowl, thanking him for saving her from the gholam, and in ToM for bringing Thom to Caemlyn and the dragons.

[TheLagomorph]

Ok, can a mod come close down this thread now? Thanks mostly everyone in the last page and a half for ignoring the OPs wishes of a non-bitchy-flaming discussion thread.

 

Right. So I write down my thoughts on your question, have a nice post-repost with Kael with no bitching that I am aware of, all of this in 'the last page and a half" and then you post this? That's pretty weak imo but whatever.

[Suttree]

Plus Eggy falls hard into every pointless arrogance the AS have been clutching to their collective bosoms these past 3000 years.

 

Except for you know all the various reforms she has instituted since stepping in as Amrylin which have done as much to change the WT as anything since the Trolloc Wars. Pointless arrogance?

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

You picked pretty much the only example of Egwene doing this the whole series...

 

Pretty much the only? There are a number of other examples, near as many as anyone else throughout the text. Of course trying to declare anyone the winner on the topic is somewhat ridiculous.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Suttree

[Manscher]

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions. And then there's of course also the whole thing regarding the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, cause clearly only Aes Sedai are good enough to bond anybody.

[Suttree]

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions.

 

This is a somewhat common misconception but it quite clearly has not much to do with "ensuring dominance", as has been shown by various people time and time again on these boards. She says she will tie them with "lace" which is of course a metaphor for cooperation. The channeler exchange program is equal, fair and gives none of the groups any advantage over the others. It will foster cooperation and understanding while the Accepted are going to have quite a rude awakening when they show up to train with the other groups. That will surely do prospective AS a great deal of good in the long run.

 

Now attempting to gain the upper hand in the deal is another matter and you are mistaken if you think the AS will be the only ones jockeying to lead. You are telling me the WFs and Sorilea will not be doing the same? This is made quite clear with the "Then we have to play the best" quote. The deal puts all groups on equal ground, it's not like the AS somehow get a leg up in the situation. This whole concept that it is a secret AS domination plot is patently absurd.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

And then there's of course also the whole thing regarding the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, cause clearly only Aes Sedai are good enough to bond anybody.

 

On one hand she is realistic enough to realize that the dominance of the tower as the lord of all channeling groups is gone for ever and on the other she continues to display outrage over anything which actually displays the diminished level of the female AS in the current world such as the AM bonding the AS.

[XXX]

Isn't there a part in one of the later books, after Egwene is raised to Amyrlin but before she is captured by the Tower AS, when she says to herself something along the lines of she knows that she's in the right, because she has the whole world to take care of? I have no idea which book it's in, but that part always bothered me. It was a very audacious assumption that, even at her young age, she knew what was best for everyone, better than anyone else. I know she's really smart and was trained well by Siuan, but what an arrogant statement. Can anyone help find that chapter?

 

She thinks herself as a hero of the horn in the seachan raid too..all in all she has a too big opinion of herself. None of the other main characters other than Rand think of themselves in such grand ways.Atleast Rand is the Dragon so has an excuse, even Siuan Sanche never considered herself indispensable when she was Amyrlin.

[csarmi]

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

 

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

 

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

 

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

 

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.

 

Please stop. You're just making your side look bad.

 

I don't have a side.

I don't know what it is I should stop as this is my only post.

I took the question of the topic-starter seriously and answered it as well as I could. This is about 90% of the REASON. Sure, there are other things too, but this is the source of it.

Edited March 19, 2012 by csarmi

[AltonJakeStorey]

Nynaeve and Egwene's faults are the same. Nynaeves are so exaggerated that we laugh. Because Egwene's aren't that exaggerated we take them seriously and are horribly offended.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Altonahk

[randsc]

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions.

 

This is a somewhat common misconception but it quite clearly has not much to do with "ensuring dominance", as has been shown by various people time and time again on these boards. She says she will tie them with "lace" which is of course a metaphor for cooperation. The channeler exchange program is equal, fair and gives none of the groups any advantage over the others. It will foster cooperation and understanding while the Accepted are going to have quite a rude awakening when they show up to train with the other groups. That will surely do prospective AS a great deal of good in the long run.

 

Now attempting to gain the upper hand in the deal is another matter and you are mistaken if you think the AS will be the only ones jockeying to lead. You are telling me the WFs and Sorilea will not be doing the same? This is made quite clear with the "Then we have to play the best" quote. The deal puts all groups on equal ground, it's not like the AS somehow get a leg up in the situation. This whole concept that it is a secret AS domination plot is patently absurd.

 

That's absurd, and you know better. Binding the Aiel to the Tower with lace simply means that her bindings will not, at first, seem to be such. They will be disguised, and attractive. The exchange program, for example. There is no reason to think that this is a metaphor for cooperation. Why would she even have the thought we see in her POV, if this was about cooperation? The Aiel wouldn't object to cooperation.

 

Frankly, the better argument people have made in attempting to excuse Egwene in this instance is the "Of course she in manuevering for the advantgae of the Tower, that's her job." Claiming she is just interested in a cooperative arrangement between equals is not supported by the text.

[randsc]

Well if you want an explanation, here's one:

 

Rand is the HERO. We get mostly his PoV's at first, then we get mostly his PoV's in every situation he is. We see almost everything from his PoV for a few books. From the PoV of a guy who is going mad.

 

Lots of people never really manage to see the series from any other PoV, not really. They get stuck there.

 

Now Egwene dares think bad things about their hero. How COULD SHE?

 

Conclusion: Egwene = BAD. So let's start finding the reasons why.

 

Please stop. You're just making your side look bad.

 

I don't have a side.

I don't know what it is I should stop as this is my only post.

I took the question of the topic-starter seriously and answered it as well as I could. This is about 90% of the REASON. Sure, there are other things too, but this is the source of it.

 

 

Ummm, no. Wrong. Also, kinda dumb. People like Moridin, for God's sake. Even though he thinks "bad things about our hero." Because he is an interesting and well-written character. In stark contrast to certain others.

[Suttree]

You seem to forget the part where she afterwards think(Or talk, can't remember exactly) about how she will tie toe Aiel to the Tower, in an attempt to ensure The Towers dominance of the other channeling factions.

 

This is a somewhat common misconception but it quite clearly has not much to do with "ensuring dominance", as has been shown by various people time and time again on these boards. She says she will tie them with "lace" which is of course a metaphor for cooperation. The channeler exchange program is equal, fair and gives none of the groups any advantage over the others. It will foster cooperation and understanding while the Accepted are going to have quite a rude awakening when they show up to train with the other groups. That will surely do prospective AS a great deal of good in the long run.

 

Now attempting to gain the upper hand in the deal is another matter and you are mistaken if you think the AS will be the only ones jockeying to lead. You are telling me the WFs and Sorilea will not be doing the same? This is made quite clear with the "Then we have to play the best" quote. The deal puts all groups on equal ground, it's not like the AS somehow get a leg up in the situation. This whole concept that it is a secret AS domination plot is patently absurd.

 

That's absurd, and you know better. Binding the Aiel to the Tower with lace simply means that her bindings will not, at first, seem to be such. They will be disguised, and attractive. The exchange program, for example. There is no reason to think that this is a metaphor for cooperation. Why would she even have the thought we see in her POV, if this was about cooperation? The Aiel wouldn't object to cooperation.

 

Frankly, the better argument people have made in attempting to excuse Egwene in this instance is the "Of course she in manuevering for the advantgae of the Tower, that's her job." Claiming she is just interested in a cooperative arrangement between equals is not supported by the text.

 

Perhaps you then would care to explain how the program gives the AS an advantage to do so? What is supported in the text is all three groups know they will be "playing" and the one who wants to be in the lead at any given time will have to "play best". Even you can not possibly think to argue this is a bad thing. "Maneuvering for the advantage of the WT" is what I said is happening, within the framework of the deal which fosters cooperation. Tying the Aiel to the WT to ensure total domination is quite another.

[SuperFade]

Perhaps you then would care to explain how the program gives the AS an advantage to do so? What is supported in the text is all three groups know they will be "playing" and the one who wants to be in the lead at any given time will have to "play best". Even you can not possibly think to argue this is a bad thing. "Maneuvering for the advantage of the WT" is what I said is happening, within the framework of the deal which fosters cooperation. Tying the Aiel to the WT to ensure total domination is quite another.

 

The problem is that it invalidates the argument that Egwene wants co-operation between all the different channeling factions. "Playing best" implies that everyone will start out equal but then one side will gain an advantage and come to dominate the others. Her comment of binding the Wise Ones and Windfinders with bands of lace instead of iron is either a very poor choice of words if she really does want co-operation or simply her saying that their methods are going to be far more subtle this time around.

[Suttree]

The problem is that it invalidates the argument that Egwene wants co-operation between all the different channeling factions. "Playing best" implies that everyone will start out equal but then one side will gain an advantage and come to dominate the others. Her comment of binding the Wise Ones and Windfinders with bands of lace instead of iron is either a very poor choice of words if she really does want co-operation or simply her saying that their methods are going to be far more subtle this time around.

 

Not at all. You know the WFs and Sorilea will be jockeying for the lead. It is stated plain as can be in the text. Of course each group will be doing so within the framework of a deal that fosters cooperation and understanding. Co-operation was the point and it was a huge step in the right direction, which in no way excludes each group looking to their best interests.

[csarmi]

Ummm, no. Wrong. Also, kinda dumb. People like Moridin, for God's sake. Even though he thinks "bad things about our hero." Because he is an interesting and well-written character. In stark contrast to certain others.

 

Moridin thinking bad things about Rand? When? How?

 

Comparing Moridin to Egwene is a very bad idea anyway. They have noting in common.

 

You surprised me, however. I thought I had you on ignore already. Strange.

[Thrasymachus]

I think this example of Egwene's jockeying with the Wise Ones and the Windfinders with regard to their exchange program is a perfect example of those who's judgements of Egwene have been cemented into place. If you already hate her, it becomes a reason to hate her more. If you're already impressed with her, it becomes a reason to be more impressed. If you couldn't really care less about her, then it's completely normal and expected political jockeying. Everyone sees what they want to see in her, which simultaneously makes her the best and the worst character in the series, depending on who you are.

[Suttree]

If you couldn't really care less about her, then it's completely normal and expected political jockeying. Everyone sees what they want to see in her, which simultaneously makes her the best and the worst character in the series, depending on who you are.

 

Well said, because of course this is precisely what it is. Any separate powers entering into an alliance/exchange would not only do the same but they would be derelict if they did not.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

If you couldn't really care less about her, then it's completely normal and expected political jockeying. Everyone sees what they want to see in her, which simultaneously makes her the best and the worst character in the series, depending on who you are.

 

Well said, because of course this is precisely what it is. Any separate powers entering into an alliance/exchange would not only do the same but they would be derelict if they did not.

 

That's fine, and by far the stronger argument.

 

The notion that "bindings of lace" is a "metaphor for cooperation" is ridiculous.

 

Why would Egwene have the half-regretful thought that she does, if that is what "lace" meant? Cooperation would be acceptable to all parties. Egwene knows that she has maneuvered the Aiel into something they will come to regret.