What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Suttree]

I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

 

Sorry but is that a joke?

 

No.

 

Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

[Kahsm]

Ugh, I shouldn't have deleted my Egwene rebuttals doc, since I'm seeing all the same false stuff and now I'll have to find all the evidence again...? that was dumb of me. Suttree is right, there are plenty of Egwene PoVs where she expresses respect for her betters and where she admits her faults and her flaws, so that's complete BS. There are way more than we get of Nynaeve. Who fights her own PoV to keep from admitting her faults. We see that in her thing about smelling the soup for a few books after the "nightmare incident". Instead of admitting to herself that Egwene was right and she's lying to herself, she just smells the disgusting soup stuff she, herself, would feed to kids who were acting as she's acting.

 

Basically what you hate of Egwene is actually a major characteristic of Nynaeve, and not a characteristic (or at least a very minor one) of Egwene.

 

There's an admission of ignorance when she and Elayne first meet Avi and Egwene talks about how little she knows of aiel for example and even expresses her, "But I'll lean!" mindset.

 

There's the scene where she discusses how important the Wise One's opinions of her are, and this is while she's Amyrlin, so the arrogance stuff is pretty much BS. People comment on her outward show, which is a show. Hate the game, not the playa'!

 

The thing about her being hypocritical about TAR is not wholly BS but extremely exaggerated. I mean Nynaeve was told of a danger, denied it, and was shown she was wrong. Egwene didn't know of a danger and fell for it. How those are considered analogus boggles my mind. Being stubbornly ignorant is hardly the same as being ignorant of your ignorance.

 

And Egwene asked about why she got sucked in after it happened, she asked the women she highly respects, and she was much more careful once she knew of the danger. Nynaeve was told of the danger and shrugged it off like a child.

 

Then there's the whole "Egwene doesn't care about people" argument when she's talking to Elayne on the boat and distances herself from the troubles in Cairhien. Even though in her own PoV she explains how she isn't going to fret over something she can do nothing about and will focus her mind on her task at hand as her own coping mechanism. It's actually quite stoic.

 

Edit: Oh and there's the whole thing of Egwene being "giddy" over how she finds she can manipulate Nynaeve. Of course it was Nynaeve to taught Egwene how to handle men, and how to handle the women's circle, and Nynaeve is extremely proud at her ability to do that. But because this is focused at Nynaeve, well all of a sudden it's some moral evil...

Edited March 9, 2012 by Kael Pyralis

[Arath Faringal]

Basically what you hate of Egwene is actually a major characteristic of Nynaeve, and not a characteristic (or at least a very minor one) of Egwene.

 

No ... it's more that I hate what Egwene is growing into, and like that Nynaeve is growing out of it.

 

There's an admission of ignorance when she and Elayne first meet Avi and Egwene talks about how little she knows of aiel for example and even expresses her, "But I'll lean!" mindset.

 

It doesn't take much to admit ignorance about a culture that is pretty alien to just about EVERYONE in the world. Plus she wanted to learn dreamwalking, and had nowhere else to go to find it. If the Wise Ones didn't have that to offer, do you honestly think for a moment that Egwene would have cared either way about the Aiel? She would have tried to persuade Rand to not go with them if their interests hadn't coincided (didn't she do that anyway?). Because she always knows best.

 

 

There's the scene where she discusses how important the Wise One's opinions of her are, and this is while she's Amyrlin, so the arrogance stuff is pretty much BS. People comment on her outward show, which is a show. Hate the game, not the playa'!

 

The thing about her being hypocritical about TAR is not wholly BS but extremely exaggerated. I mean Nynaeve was told of a danger, denied it, and was shown she was wrong. Egwene didn't know of a danger and fell for it. How those are considered analogus boggles my mind. Being stubbornly ignorant is hardly the same as being ignorant of your ignorance.

 

And Egwene asked about why she got sucked in after it happened, she asked the women she highly respects, and she was much more careful once she knew of the danger. Nynaeve was told of the danger and shrugged it off like a child.

 

Except for those times where she secretly continued her dream training in spite of what the highly respected Wise One's opinions. Actions speak louder than words. Then when she dressed down Nynaeve as a fool for 'playing around in T'A'R which she had been guilty of doing only moments before, she did it not to protect Nynaeve from the dangers of the dream world, but to save her own lying skin from being found out by the Wise Ones.

 

Edit: Oh and there's the whole thing of Egwene being "giddy" over how she finds she can manipulate Nynaeve. Of course it was Nynaeve to taught Egwene how to handle men, and how to handle the women's circle, and Nynaeve is extremely proud at her ability to do that. But because this is focused at Nynaeve, well all of a sudden it's some moral evil...

 

Nynaeve always seemed more frustrated by the fact that she had to do things that way, rather than proud. Her young age, and younger appearance, were a liability as a Wisdom, and interfered with her ability to be perceived as a leader. She resorted to bullying to get things done, and it began to become second nature. Not a great way to be a leader, but it worked on a small scale. Egwene gets power drunk when she realizes that she can just brow beat anyone into submission. The scene where she first does this to Nynaeve wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that she doesn't stop. She is supposed to be equal with Nynaeve at this point, but she sets herself up as the biggest bully on the playground. And she's over joyed by it.

 

Another thing that really irks me about Egwene is her attitude toward Rand. EVERYTHING he does, she opposes. Every major decision he has made, she has been against. Never mind the fact that he's the biggest ta'veren in history, or the fact that NOBODY really understands the prophecies of the dragon (despite 3000 years of being studied), or even the fact that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel bloody wills, he can only make the correct decisions with her direction ... the advice of the teenager Amyrlin; leader of the organization that has done nothing but screw up concerning Rand from the beginning.

 

Nynaeve opposes things that Rand does, but she does it from a more informed perspective ... and it was mostly dark Rand that she opposed. She also realized that he does, in fact, know what he's doing. She began to see things from his point of view. She didn't like it, but she respects him more. Nynaeve's opposition to Rand stems from her concern for him. Egwene's opposition stems from her concern for the White Tower, and out of her own misguided sense of superiority.

[Suttree]

Because she always knows best.

 

Again this perception isn't entirely true, or at least not much more so than most of the other main characters. We see hear admitting she doesn't always know best and showing admiration for advisers and teachers throughout the text.

 

Another thing that really irks me about Egwene is her attitude toward Rand. EVERYTHING he does, she opposes. Every major decision he has made, she has been against. Never mind the fact that he's the biggest ta'veren in history, or the fact that NOBODY really understands the prophecies of the dragon (despite 3000 years of being studied), or even the fact that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel bloody wills, he can only make the correct decisions with her direction ... the advice of the teenager Amyrlin; leader of the organization that has done nothing but screw up concerning Rand from the beginning.

 

Screw up from the beginning? Without Gitara Rand would not have been born, without Moiraine he may have been killed before he learned a thing, without Cads...see where this is going? The WT has made blunders but there have been various AS crucial to his development throughout the story.

 

As for Egwene opposing Rand, her opposing everything is obviously false but in regards to the seals any sane person would have based on his actions pre VoG. He was destroying his own armies, slaughtering innocents and on the brink of handing the DO an ultimate victory with his Dark Rand persona. He has much as admitted he has no idea how to seal the bore and is relying on Min to find the answers for him. He waltzed into the WT and said can't talk now, breaking the seals, late.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Suttree

[andrewks]

Because she always knows best.

 

Again this perception isn't entirely true, or at least not much more so than most of the other main characters. We see hear admitting she doesn't always know best and showing admiration for advisers and teachers throughout the text.

 

Another thing that really irks me about Egwene is her attitude toward Rand. EVERYTHING he does, she opposes. Every major decision he has made, she has been against. Never mind the fact that he's the biggest ta'veren in history, or the fact that NOBODY really understands the prophecies of the dragon (despite 3000 years of being studied), or even the fact that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel bloody wills, he can only make the correct decisions with her direction ... the advice of the teenager Amyrlin; leader of the organization that has done nothing but screw up concerning Rand from the beginning.

 

 

As for Egwene opposing Rand, her opposing everything is obviously false but in regards to the seals any sane person would have based on his actions pre VoG. He was destroying his own armies, slaughtering innocents and on the brink of handing the DO an ultimate victory with his Dark Rand persona. He has much as admitted he has no idea how to seal the bore and is relying on Min to find the answers for him. He waltzed into the WT and said can't talk now, breaking the seals, late.

 

When did Rand slaughter innocents? I hope you aren't counting balefiring Graendal's hangout. No one was innocent inside there.

[Suttree]

When did Rand slaughter innocents? I hope you aren't counting balefiring Graendal's hangout. No one was innocent inside there.

 

That and the Damona Mountain Campaign in tPoD.

 

Most of the people killed were innocents at Natrims Barrow. One can argue most would have been too far gone from compulsion but Nynave certainly would have liked a chance at saving some. Again it was at this point where the DO was pretty close to winning the game of Sha'rah.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Suttree

[DemandredFO]

Egwene dislikes Nyneave "running loose". If not for that Saidin would still be tainted, Darth Rand may have been worse and she wouldn't have healed madness or compulsion.

[Sloth]

I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

 

Sorry but is that a joke?

 

No.

 

Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

 

I don't agree.. just as most fans wouldn't agree with my sentiments that Perrin and Mat are the most abysmally boring and unlikeable characters in the series.

[cwbys21]

One thing someone mentioned a long time ago that I never noticed until it was brought up is that Egwene doesn't have much of her own personality. In EF she is constantly mimicking Nyneave, then she is mimicking Moiraine/whatever AS is close, then she is mimicking Wise Ones etc etc. I think this was intentional, that we would come to understand these cultures through her, but from a pure story perspective, she comes off as a brown noser trying to constantly latch herself onto people with power and join their ranks.

[Suttree]

I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

 

Sorry but is that a joke?

 

No.

 

Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

 

I don't agree.. just as most fans wouldn't agree with my sentiments that Perrin and Mat are the most abysmally boring and unlikeable characters in the series.

 

I agree wholeheartedly about Perrin and I think most fans would as well. The problem with your viewpoint on Nyanaeve is the facts are in the story. You can pull passage after passage of her bullying and browbeating people. It isn't even up for debate.

[Sloth]

I don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

 

Sorry but is that a joke?

 

No.

 

Ok well then you must mean that she isn't that type "now" as of ToM because that is just about all she did for the first three quarters of the story.

 

I don't agree.. just as most fans wouldn't agree with my sentiments that Perrin and Mat are the most abysmally boring and unlikeable characters in the series.

 

I agree wholeheartedly about Perrin and I think most fans would as well. The problem with your viewpoint on Nyanaeve is the facts are in the story. You can pull passage after passage of her bullying and browbeating people. It isn't even up for debate.

 

I either don't agree, don't remember, or didn't mind the bullying. Feel free to pull a few passages from the bookes to prove your point.

[Kahsm]

There's an admission of ignorance when she and Elayne first meet Avi and Egwene talks about how little she knows of aiel for example and even expresses her, "But I'll lean!" mindset.

 

It doesn't take much to admit ignorance about a culture that is pretty alien to just about EVERYONE in the world. Plus she wanted to learn dreamwalking, and had nowhere else to go to find it. If the Wise Ones didn't have that to offer, do you honestly think for a moment that Egwene would have cared either way about the Aiel? She would have tried to persuade Rand to not go with them if their interests hadn't coincided (didn't she do that anyway?). Because she always knows best.

 

That was just one example of a bunch I could remember from my "anti-admission of ignorance" notes. In LoC she chides herself for channeling out on the river after getting thrown off the Seafolk boat. There's an admission of stupidity for ya, I found that one in my "anti-Egwene is perfect" notes. And yes I absolutely think Egwene would care about the Aiel. She's expressed how Aes Sedai sheltered-ness has hurt their place in the world. Knowing about cultures is obviously part of fixing that.

 

And are you suggesting that Nynaeve is the humble one who admits her ignorance all the time? Egwene does it far more than Nynaeve who only does it through excuses, blame on others, and ridiculous rationalizations. At least when Egwene is wrong she'll admit it on her own head, Nynaeve doesn't even do that!

 

There's the scene where she discusses how important the Wise One's opinions of her are, and this is while she's Amyrlin, so the arrogance stuff is pretty much BS. People comment on her outward show, which is a show. Hate the game, not the playa'!

 

The thing about her being hypocritical about TAR is not wholly BS but extremely exaggerated. I mean Nynaeve was told of a danger, denied it, and was shown she was wrong. Egwene didn't know of a danger and fell for it. How those are considered analogus boggles my mind. Being stubbornly ignorant is hardly the same as being ignorant of your ignorance.

 

And Egwene asked about why she got sucked in after it happened, she asked the women she highly respects, and she was much more careful once she knew of the danger. Nynaeve was told of the danger and shrugged it off like a child.

 

Except for those times where she secretly continued her dream training in spite of what the highly respected Wise One's opinions. Actions speak louder than words. Then when she dressed down Nynaeve as a fool for 'playing around in T'A'R which she had been guilty of doing only moments before, she did it not to protect Nynaeve from the dangers of the dream world, but to save her own lying skin from being found out by the Wise Ones.

 

Sneaking through TAR without the wise ones doesn't show a lack of respect, it shows a lack of self control when it comes to learning things, which we know is a characteristic of Egwene. And yes, actions do speak louder than words. Which is why Egwene allowing them to punish her, willingly, under ji'e'toh and not just walking away and back to the WT shows exceptional character. Consider Elayne and Nynaeve's reaction when Avi suggested how they could pay off their toh to Mat, completely dismissive. Egwene's open mindedness gives her far more credibility than both Elayne and Nynaeve's narrow and selfish world views.

 

Yeah, she did snap at Nynaeve to cover her ass from questions she didn't want asked. And yes, that was wrong. That doesn't, however, invalidate what she said which was still 100% true. And Nynaeve's dismissive reaction to someone who she still saw as a child and not someone more experienced than her at something was childish and wrong headed. Nyaneve's dismisal of Egwene is exactly the same as Egwene's dismissal of the WOs. But just ignore that. And then ignore the fact Egwene met her toh for her errors which Nynaeve has never done. Yes, actions do speak louder than words.

 

Edit: Oh and there's the whole thing of Egwene being "giddy" over how she finds she can manipulate Nynaeve. Of course it was Nynaeve to taught Egwene how to handle men, and how to handle the women's circle, and Nynaeve is extremely proud at her ability to do that. But because this is focused at Nynaeve, well all of a sudden it's some moral evil...

 

Nynaeve always seemed more frustrated by the fact that she had to do things that way, rather than proud. Her young age, and younger appearance, were a liability as a Wisdom, and interfered with her ability to be perceived as a leader. She resorted to bullying to get things done, and it began to become second nature. Not a great way to be a leader, but it worked on a small scale. Egwene gets power drunk when she realizes that she can just brow beat anyone into submission. The scene where she first does this to Nynaeve wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that she doesn't stop. She is supposed to be equal with Nynaeve at this point, but she sets herself up as the biggest bully on the playground. And she's over joyed by it.

 

Luckily, I still have my notes on the Nynaeve's reactions post-nightmare....

 

Oh here's a fun example of Nynaeve searchign for anyone to blame but herself:

The light be thanked that Elayne helped her present Samara as Galad and Masema's fault.

Yeah, that sounds like someone who's of particularly high character.

 

And here's mroe of Nynaeve lying to herself in her own PoV:

Nynaeve was surprised Surandin did not come, though in a way she was just as glad. Elayne might get alone famously with the woman, but since the incident where she had been assulted, Nynaeve had felt a tention whenever she was around her. Perhaps the more because Surandin gave no outward sign of the same.

 

And here's one relating to the power struggle between Nynaeve suggesting she's more than willing to play the game she taught Egwene:

Egwene would not find it easy to bully a woman dressed so. Certainly not that that could have had anythign to do with why she has doned it, even unconciously.

The other woman [Egwene] seemed unseasy. If there was any time to start redressing the balance between them, it might as well be now. "What I want to know..."

Capitalize on weakness? Just because Egwene is better at the game Nynaeve taught her doesn't mean Nynaeve isn't trying to play it.

 

As to Egwene's power hungriness (a confusion of her self improvement and learning motivation) and not caring about friends (not sure you said that but others have)

 

It would do no good if she [Egwene] broke the white tower to save Rand. She had to save both.

 

And then there was the beautiful scene where Mat is all differential to Egwene because he recognized she could use the show of support, and she thanks him earnestly. You'd think someone so power mad would have just been like "You're damn right you should bow to me!" Actually, Nynaeve probably would!

[Dreggs Morlock]

I LIKE Egwene...let me say that up front.

 

But her attitude towards Rand (basically acting just like any other AS that didn't know him) comes off as just plain dumb. She in essence becomes just another AS when she starts thinking that what is best for Rand is to be completely controlled by the White Tower. They know best, after all. End of discussion. Period.

 

I really thought since she knows him better than any AS besides Ny, she would be able to HELP him, not try to control him. Worst, the only second opinion she can go to with a similar past is thrown out straight away due to "contamination". Ny's opinions cannot be trusted, because she was actually with him, not locked away from the rest of the world in the WT.

 

But this isn't a reason to hate Egwene; it seems every one of RJ's main characters must make at least a few well intentioned bad decisions.

 

The thought that because one is AS, one automatically has all the right moves is a very realistic attitude in a world where the WT was the ultimate power for 3,000 years; its just very jarring to see Egwene with the same feelings without being nutured in the WT environment for as many years as most AS have to endure before obtaining the shawl.

 

*EDIT* Darn spelling...

Edited March 10, 2012 by Dreggs Morlock

[Treemaster]

There are plenty of reasons to like Egwene, and plenty of reasons to hate her. The thread points out a lot of examples on both sides.

 

For those that dislike her (as I do), it comes down to this: The writing makes it seem as though we are supposed to think that everything she does it perfect. The other characters all have plenty of faults. Egwene has faults too. The difference is the way they are presented. Egwene just isn't a round enough character. Those that like Egwene undoubtedly feel differently, but that's where the hatred comes from, I believe.

 

All that being said, I think we're being set up for something truly remarkable to happen with Egwene at the Fields of Merrilor. Her dreams in her Accepted test undoubtedly symbolize something important, along with her falling off a cliff, needing help from a Seanchan, and so forth. I'm really looking forward to that part of A Memory of Light.

[Suttree]

I either don't agree, don't remember, or didn't mind the bullying. Feel free to pull a few passages from the bookes to prove your point.

 

The bolded bit is obviously the case as you can't not agree with what is written straight out. She hits, kicks and uses threats to enforce her will all throughout the first part of the story. She clearly felt the need to resort to this as a young Wisdom. It has been by far one of the most talked about aspects of her personality in the fandom. She does change somewhat in the later part of the books and even admits in TGS that her old ways aren't going to work on Rand anymore.

 

TGS Ch. 32

How did one handle a creature like the Dragon Reborn? Nynaeve knew that the old Rand was there, within him somewhere. He had simply been beaten and kicked so many times that he'd gone into hiding, letting this harsher version rule. As much as it galled her to admit it, bullying him was just not going to work. But how was she to get him to do what he should, since he was too bullheaded to respond to ordinary prodding?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Suttree

[SuperFade]

The writing makes it seem as though we are supposed to think that everything she does it perfect.

 

This is the main reason for my own dislike of Egwene.

 

It's clear that Robert Jordan always intended that Egwene would eventually become the Amyrlin - Moiraine says she has the talent as early as the first book - but he had no idea how to plausibly get her there. Thus we have her suddenly becoming an unrivalled political mastermind after a few talks with Siuan and Leanne. She outsmarts people with centuries more experience than her and everyone who opposes her turns into drooling braindead morons. The manner of Egwene's rise to power would have been far more excusable if Robert Jordan had made her Ta'veren, since it would explain away many of her more implausible successes.

[Rose]

For those that dislike her (as I do), it comes down to this: The writing makes it seem as though we are supposed to think that everything she does it perfect. The other characters all have plenty of faults. Egwene has faults too. The difference is the way they are presented. Egwene just isn't a round enough character. Those that like Egwene undoubtedly feel differently, but that's where the hatred comes from, I believe.

 

It's clear that Robert Jordan always intended that Egwene would eventually become the Amyrlin - Moiraine says she has the talent as early as the first book - but he had no idea how to plausibly get her there. Thus we have her suddenly becoming an unrivalled political mastermind after a few talks with Siuan and Leanne. She outsmarts people with centuries more experience than her and everyone who opposes her turns into drooling braindead morons. The manner of Egwene's rise to power would have been far more excusable if Robert Jordan had made her Ta'veren, since it would explain away many of her more implausible successes.

 

THIS. I like both Egwene and Nynaeve a lot - which may be rare given that most people who like one of them seem to dislike the other - but I think the reason Egwene is often much less relatable and more annoying than Nynaeve in the later books is the way she was written. Jordan obviously didn't mean for anyone to hate her. But he never seemed very good at writing women, in my opinion. He created great female characters and I love many of them, but he often had a hard time keeping them from becoming stereotyped.

 

One of the reasons for this is, I believe, that he was trying to turn the tables on gender roles a bit - let's have the women dismiss men out of hand for a change and see how they feel about it! Except he gives women a lot of the bad traits many men have in our world, but without shedding much light on their good traits in exchange. And, our world being what it is, it makes us quick to call them "bitchy" or other equally charming terms. Notice that no male character ever in the WoT thinks that about the women. Their gender roles and standards are different from ours. But when we take the characters from their world and judge them against our standards and biases, that's the result you get, sometimes at least.

 

I get the feeling that Jordan tried to make a point there and it didn't always work very well. He tried to create strong, capable women who could be leaders, take decisions and be respected. He didn't always do a very good job of it. I still love his world and his characters though, but I can't help but come to the conclusion that, if so many people hate a character who was obviously not meant to be hated, then the author is at least partially to blame.

[shadowofomioc]

I for one have never disliked Egwene. However she does have the tendency to think she is ALWAYS correct on whatever the issue may be. Whether she is speaking to a king, the Amyrlin, the Dragon Reborn, Aes Sedai, whatever. She is pretty self centered and arrogant.

 

I have never disliked her though, despite that. I think her time with the Seachan in book 2 really shaped who she became through the rest of the series. That constant reminder in the back of the head that she can be used as nothing but a pet / tool for someone else had to really throw off her entire psyche. Which of course made me enjoy that part of book 12 even moreso. I probably re-read that section 10-15x just because it was so dramatic and well written.

 

I especially do not agree though with what Egwene is doing at this point in time in the storyline. In regards to assisting the Dragon Reborn in his trials. Or should I say, her unwillingness to assist.

[Sloth]

I either don't agree, don't remember, or didn't mind the bullying. Feel free to pull a few passages from the bookes to prove your point.

 

The bolded bit is obviously the case as you can't not agree with what is written straight out. She hits, kicks and uses threats to enforce her will all throughout the first part of the story. She clearly felt the need to resort to this as a young Wisdom. It has been by far one of the most talked about aspects of her personality in the fandom. She does change somewhat in the later part of the books and even admits in TGS that her old ways aren't going to work on Rand anymore.

 

TGS Ch. 32

How did one handle a creature like the Dragon Reborn? Nynaeve knew that the old Rand was there, within him somewhere. He had simply been beaten and kicked so many times that he'd gone into hiding, letting this harsher version rule. As much as it galled her to admit it, bullying him was just not going to work. But how was she to get him to do what he should, since he was too bullheaded to respond to ordinary prodding?

 

In my defense, I've only read the series once and it's hard to keep track of every miniscule detail aside from the major plot.

 

I guess I just didn't mind the bullying. I didn't really view it as bullying which is why I still don't see Nynaeve as the bullying type.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sloth

[SuperFade]

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

[Suttree]

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

 

That was without a doubt a low point, she was absolutely right in what she was telling Nynaeve but the circumstances were pretty bad. Strangely Nyanave doesn't seem to hold it against her in the slightest but this is one the stand outs for the people that dislike Egwene.

 

One question though when you say she "bullies people in order to cover her own ass" that makes it sound as if it's a regular thing. I can't recall any other scenario like that. Her and Nynaeve actually mirror each other with the young wisdom/amyrlin using any means necessary to succeed. Also lastly Egwene is reviled all the time because she sticks to a course of action and "genuinely believes it's the right thing to do".

Edited March 11, 2012 by Suttree

[Durinax]

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

 

That was without a doubt a low point, she was absolutely right in what she was telling Nynaeve but the circumstances were pretty bad. Strangely Nyanave doesn't seem to hold it against her in the slightest but this is one the stand outs for the people that dislike Egwene.

 

One question though when you say she "bullies people in order to cover her own ass" that makes it sound as if it's a regular thing. I can't recall any other scenario like that. Her and Nynaeve actually mirror each other with the young wisdom/amyrlin using any means necessary to succeed.

this one isnt quite the same.

 

but when she blackmails the AS into swearing binding oaths to her, she effectively uses them to cover her own ass

[Suttree]

Egwene's bullying is far worse than Nynaeve's. Whenever Nyneave browbeats someone into doing something it's generally because she cares about them and genuinely believes it's the right thing to do. Egwene bullies people in order to cover her own ass, like her unforgiveable treatment of Nynaeve in T'A'R.

 

That was without a doubt a low point, she was absolutely right in what she was telling Nynaeve but the circumstances were pretty bad. Strangely Nyanave doesn't seem to hold it against her in the slightest but this is one the stand outs for the people that dislike Egwene.

 

One question though when you say she "bullies people in order to cover her own ass" that makes it sound as if it's a regular thing. I can't recall any other scenario like that. Her and Nynaeve actually mirror each other with the young wisdom/amyrlin using any means necessary to succeed.

this one isnt quite the same.

 

but when she blackmails the AS into swearing binding oaths to her, she effectively uses them to cover her own ass

 

Yeah I can see the similarity but I file that under her using any means needed as a young Amrylin facing a Hall that has tried to set her up and control her like a puppet. As her rule becomes more secure she doesn't need that type of thing anymore whereas Elaida went the opposite direction when everything started falling to pieces. Granted she had a tough time with Fain's influence and the BA applying the screws.

[wphodges]

Isn't there a part in one of the later books, after Egwene is raised to Amyrlin but before she is captured by the Tower AS, when she says to herself something along the lines of she knows that she's in the right, because she has the whole world to take care of? I have no idea which book it's in, but that part always bothered me. It was a very audacious assumption that, even at her young age, she knew what was best for everyone, better than anyone else. I know she's really smart and was trained well by Siuan, but what an arrogant statement. Can anyone help find that chapter?

[TheLagomorph]

Some reasons why I dislike our young Amyrlin, and some cons for balance:

 

I do not like the hypocrisy of flirting and giggling with Aram? (the mentally unstable tinker)and then being pissy with Rand.

Con.: Stop complaining about a teenage girl having fun and being silly.

 

I do not like Egwene's attitude to dumping Rand and letting Elayne be the rebound girl.

Con: it is not easy to communicate such things in any case.

 

I do not like Egwene's attitude to Rand when he wanted to know the location of Salidar.

Con: He was not being subtle about it. Still her attitude sucked imo.

 

I do not like the way Egwene lies to the wise ones, no honor there. She got her honor back only because the Aiel are the most forgiving people in the word if you let them whip you.

Con: she atoned for it so there.

 

I do not like how Egwene treated Nyneave when covering her ass.

Con.: None.

 

I do not like Egwene's thoughts and handling of Mat's Band.

Con.: i dunno

 

I really do not like Egwene's treatment of Siuan after being saved from the tower. Uncalled for, arrogant, uninterested in the motivations and reasons of a woman who was Armylin for years and years, insulting to Gareth and her about their relationship. Foul stuff.

Con.: Maybe she was high on righteousness.

 

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Gawhine.

Con.: He is a little female dog so perhaps it is suitable.

 

I do not like Egwene's treatment of Nyneave during her testing. I would disown and rip the eyes out of any 'friend' who let people do that to me. Con.: dunno

 

I do not like Egwene's perception of Nynaeve's backing of Rand. Con.: I would be paranoid too if I knew ta'veren effects existed.

 

So this is why, by and large, I do not like Egwene. It is not exhaustive and she does have redeeming aspects. Especially Nynaeve suffers at Egwene's hands and since Nynaeve is always motivated by caring for people it grates more.

Edited March 12, 2012 by TheLagomorph