Crazy Paradoxes...

[Rybesh532]

A while back I thought of these two paradoxes, and would like some input on them.

 

paradox 1:

three people (A, B, C) get in a fight with the OP. A BFs B. C BFs A to before A BFd B. Theoretically, B would come back. Then B BFs C. Who's left standing?

 

paradox 2:

someone who can channel opens a gateway that leads to right behind them, so that they are looking at the back of their own head. They then BF through the gateway on themselves. What Happens?

 

and let the carnage begin.

 

rbs out

[ROB_88]

for the first one, as far as i understand, it doesn't work that way.

 

they all are threads in the pattern, the victims thread isn't neatly cut, it's burned off. you can't recreate a burned thread by deleting the lighter.

 

there is probably someone much better at analogies then me, but that's the basics of it.

they won't get revived.

[Alric]

2) If the BF is strong enough, he might end up alive in the same spot with the gateway never created and scratching his head. If not, I can't really see why anything special would happen except him dying.

[Thrasymachus]

Does balefire work like that? I mean, it's not like getting killed by lightning. You're burned out of the Pattern. So if A balefires B, and burns B out of the Pattern, then C balefires A out of the Pattern back to before A balefired B, B wouldn't necessarily re-appear, since he'd already been balefired out of the pattern, presumably, but not necessarily back to before A was burned out.

 

As for the second paradox, I'd presume it'd erase the gateway. Have we seen anybody weave through gateways before? Not weave at gateways, to hold them open or hide them or something, but weave on one side of the gateway to affect something on the other side? Like throwing fireballs through gateways or something?

[ROB_88]

 

Have we seen anybody weave through gateways before?

 

when the girls escaped from the Seanchan after the Bowl of Winds was used.

numerous fireballs were used after they went through the gateway

[rand4747]

I would say anyone bailfired no longer exists and so there is no way of getting them back even balefiring the guy who balefired them (but stronger to before that time) other effects of that guy you balefired would be as if they never happened but where the first guy balefired should have been there is no one.

 

As for the gateway thing same thing balefire yourself through the gateway the gateways will vanish and so will you. because the balefire must kill you and erase you before the gateways vanish and even though they vanish "before" you will killed the patern cant put you back because you are gone. so you will just vanish and any bystander would have seen you light up and vanish (the light from the balefire) since people remember what happened before the balefire changed the present.

 

On another hand and this is just completely random speculation maybe the body will reappear but no soul.

[kght22]

 

Have we seen anybody weave through gateways before?

 

when the girls escaped from the Seanchan after the Bowl of Winds was used.

numerous fireballs were used after they went through the gateway

 

just like lightning woven with the power hit mat, and killed him, after a fireball is woven and thrown, it is physical and real, not being sustained by the power, so like a person, it can go through a gateway.

 

edit: i don't know if the same could be said of balefire

[Byzantine279]

It might not be possible to create a gateway such a short distance away.

 

The balefire paradox would likely just create a balescream and leave all of them dead.

[bobarose]

It might not be possible to create a gateway such a short distance away.

 

The balefire paradox would likely just create a balescream and leave all of them dead.

 

 

I think your right they would all die.Wouldn't the pattern pull another person

in to fill in the places of a,b c like a infinate loop?

[bobarose]

Also who would want to bf the back of there own head?

 

Thats one hell of a way to cut your hair.

[Rose]

That's why balefire is so dangerous, I think. These types of things are what causes the Pattern to unravel. Conclusion: Don't try this at home, kids.

[BrainFireBob]

To quote RJ: "Balefire stands outside its own paradox".

 

Means that in 1, both people don't exist.

 

In 2, I'd imagine you could successfully BF yourself. It would be stupid, but yes, that would be outside the paradox.

 

 

I think this may be what happened with Rand and Moridin. They balefired each other's balefire out of existence while still hitting their target. That's a unique situation we haven't seen before. I assume the Pattern is trying to "fix" it by making one balefire stream have hit Mashadar- which means it came from one source. Meaning they're becoming one person from the standpoint of the Pattern. Speculative, but there you are.

[Gaidzag]

How about this one: Person A asks person B to balefire him. Person A balefires B far enough back so that B never had a chance to ask to be balefired. What happens?

[Pinzarn]

How about this one: Person A asks person B to balefire him. Person A balefires B far enough back so that B never had a chance to ask to be balefired. What happens?

 

A is still burned out of the pattern.

 

B since he was never asked to BF (at this point), he would be confused on why A is gone since he won't remember being asked and doing it.

[Thrasymachus]

To paraphrase RJ's answer to a similar question when it was asked of him, "You guys need to get laid." And that's the answer to every balefire paradox question, "What happens if..." What happens is that the person who asked the question needs to get laid.

[Durinax]

first paradox:

 

the people who are balefired get burnt out so they are dead before the balefire hits them, removing the balefire weave wouldn't do anything after the fact because the person died before the balefire hit them

[jsbrads]

durinax is right, a few people came up with the same answer. in the first paradox

When C bf A, B's nonexistence is already disconnected from the act commited by A...

second, you can channel thru a gateway because the space immediately in front of the gate is connected to the space thru the gate in a way that is no different from any two nearby spaces. And the person would die, because as soon as he bf's himself, the thread is burnt backwards in time disconnecting it from act, violating cause and effect, period.

All the players in a scene where bf occurs remember the original history line, and it seems they don't additionally "remember" the altered time line, if you recall Rahvin's death, so A would remember B asking him

[Knivy]

Another paradox here. Going off the situation where A balefires through the gateway. Lets say the balefire destroys the gateway, will the balefire proceed to hit whatever was on the other side of the gateway, or will it follow the path it would have if the gateway never existed?

[shortkut]

Another paradox here. Going off the situation where A balefires through the gateway. Lets say the balefire destroys the gateway, will the balefire proceed to hit whatever was on the other side of the gateway, or will it follow the path it would have if the gateway never existed?

that depends on if you can balefire a weave

[fuzz1717]

durinax is right, a few people came up with the same answer. in the first paradox

When C bf A, B's nonexistence is already disconnected from the act commited by A...

second, you can channel thru a gateway because the space immediately in front of the gate is connected to the space thru the gate in a way that is no different from any two nearby spaces. And the person would die, because as soon as he bf's himself, the thread is burnt backwards in time disconnecting it from act, violating cause and effect, period.

All the players in a scene where bf occurs remember the original history line, and it seems they don't additionally "remember" the altered time line, if you recall Rahvin's death, so A would remember B asking him

 

But Mat remembers the darkhound in TFoH when it chews through the door and then is balefired by Rand. I think that they didnt remember the Rahvin one because the attack was sudden, and they died from it. They didnt remember the attack itself because it was so sudden, and the brain doesnt function when you are dead, so they had nothing to remember.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A few answers RJ gave on Balefire situations.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

What happens when two people balefire each other simultaneously?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

[disgusted look] A lot of confusion.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 20th, 1999

Brisbane Signing Report - Joel Gilmore (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Ok, first and foremost we have an answer to the balefire-balefire paradox. If A balefires B, then C balefires A, B WILL come back alive again. I explored this quite thoroughly with him, getting him to repeat himself more than once. It is definite. It is over.

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn't matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

 

PAUL WARD

Possible questions: Does balefire affect itself? Can you balefire balefire? If you balefire another person, but then you get balefired, what happens to the person you balefired?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The balefire weave exists wholly or partly outside time, which removes it from its own effect.

[Lisa Campbell]

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn't matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.

 

Love this comment from RJ, understand some posts better now.

[fuzz1717]

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

What happens when two people balefire each other simultaneously?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

[disgusted look] A lot of confusion.

INTERVIEW: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn't matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.

 

LOL, this is proof enough for anyone that RJ is amazing

[jsbrads]

Fuzz1717: Mat was dead, it was everyone else was confused

[fuzz1717]

Fuzz1717: Mat was dead, it was everyone else was confused

 

what? what did my post have to do with mat?