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Guest Egwene

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

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^ From Asmo's POV in which he died, does he make it clear and obvious that he is within Caemlyn, in the Real World, the whole time? I don't have the books with me, and I'm pretty sure he does, but it never hurts for someone to check...

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Asmo did figure out the balefire do-over.

 

One power users have 6th, 7th and 8th senses about a lot of things, so he should have noticed something. Unless it's narratively convenient he doesn't so I don't think a determination can be made. Besides, things seem to be weighing on his mind more so than might be normal, but this is Asmo's only PoV so he might be like that all the time.

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Balefire with sufficient strength makes where irrelevant. It's an annoying complication...made a lot more difficult with what's presented in the first 5 books.

 

I have to admit, I think its an unnecessary complication based on a misinterpretation. I can't say that for certain of course since I wasn't at Dragoncon 05, but there is no possible scenario which matches that particular requirement.

 

Why?

 

We know, from the book itself, exactly where he died. He died in Caemlyn. The discussion on the theory boards you referenced talked about the possibility that he was pushed into Skimming space, or to some other location and then killed. But that just takes too long. "The word still hung in the air when death took him." No time for "the long fall" there. No time to be carted off to some freaky location that the Dark One couldn't reach.

 

RJ has misspoken before at live events (as evidenced by future corrections and clarifications he made), and much, much more often, what he has said has been misinterpreted or misrecorded. I guess what I'm saying is that unless there is some clearer, more verifiable source for this, I'm pretty much just going to ignore it, because there is no location that we know of which specifically impedes the Dark One.

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Guest Egwene

Of course... if the door wasn't just any door... but a door to the land of the Finns... :roll:

 

:D :wink:

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Of course... if the door wasn't just any door... but a door to the land of the Finns... :roll:

 

:D :wink:

 

How did I know this was coming?

 

I must say if you turn out to be right I'll laugh my arse off.

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Oh I get it ... the engineers building the Palace at Caemlyn accidently made a door that led from the arched walkway to the Finn's world. Of course, they didn't know what they did, and no one else figured it out by using that door for thousands of years. Asmodean noticed nothing strange about his surroundings when he opened the door, and someone he recognized was standing there waiting for him to do it so they could kill him.

 

:roll:

 

I understand (or at least I hope) that you were pretty much joking there Egwene, but honestly, there are people here who will gasp and run with a statement like that. My headache is bad enough as it is here, folks ....

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Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve, and Rahvin was D-E-D dead.
Forgot about moggy. But Rahvin is dead. Like Lanfear and supposedly to asmo Moiraine. And if he knows Rahvin is dead and you see him in a pantry ready to kill you, you would be surprised.

 

or heck Sammeal.

 

Sammael probably has the second best case to Graendal, but he seems genuinely unsure about it in subsequent books, whereas Graendal seems very sure Asmodean is dead.

 

What I was implying was that it can be anyone.

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Skimming space.

 

I'm sorry, why do we have reason to believe that the Dark One can't reach into "skimming space"? He can reach into vacuoles and those are completely outside the Pattern. Actually, I would think that it is easier for the Dark One to reach into "skimming space", since the Black Cords are visible there, and its not inside the Pattern.

 

No, the only reason to assume that the Dark One can't get there is to satisfy a non book-related, and in my view, poorly documented, very odd requirement.

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Ok, I finally read the subsequent discussion, I have to say the arguments where we left off were unconvincing since DM was off.

 

Now, with too much to quote, first off the combination of the size of the courtyard, whatever it is, and the door being small, make it impossible for Asmodean to have been intercepted. There could be no certainty that Asmo was going to take the small door, or that he was going anywhere. We already discussed this in the Structured thread, though I haven't spoken about this in this thread. The pictures, where it is possible to intercept, are over-simplifications. Either the courtyard was large or small, it wasn't both. Also nothing could have told anyone in a window that Asmodean wasn't simply walking in the garden.

 

No, it is not an unnecessary complication that Graendal Travelled. I also stick with it, since it is true. Why I make an issue of it is it allows the murder to be solved without the help of later books-- not just to guess who did it, but to figure it out. Hmm, what would have stopped Sammael from being curious that day also? I don't mind him being in the palace, he didn't kill Asmo regardless.

 

CT, I am tempted to abandon Graendal for Asunawa. However, might I say you too insist, you insist the where and how Asmo couldn't be recycled be relevant to the murderer's identity. Clearly this isn't so-- nothing is changed if it was Semirhage who killed Asmo instead of Graendal, or even Asunawa-- necessarily.

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This illustrates why, if the garden was small, it did not happen in it, but some hallways from it, at least.

garden.jpg

 

The red is Asmo's position when he died respective to the doorway.

 

If distances are larger, the stalker's problems are also likewise larger, if he is going to be at the other side of that small door when Asmo opens it. The only solution to the problem will be Travelling.

 

Btw, the picture here is highly unrealistic. What is a small door doing there, in such a gravelled path? Why is there such a path for servants? Remove the gravel, and no one could guess Asmo was going to take the door.

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I'll fetch a few quotes yet.

 

Beckon, how exactly would Graendal who wasn't expecting Asmo to barge in on her be less surprised to have him open a door on her than Rahvin to deal with Rand? Then neither expected the other, and Graendal was in no danger. Graendal didn't kill just anyone, but Asmodean. No, the killer, even if it was Asunawa, knew Asmo was coming before he opened the door.

 

 

She saw him THROUGH A WINDOW. Thats what the little blue things on my diagram are.

 

The problem is that the windows do not give enough information. IT doesn't work if the garden is small, and it doesn't work if it is large, for different reasons.

 

Rand wasn't surprised, he was angry. Rand was the one chasing Rahvin around. He went after Rahvin deliberately.

 

Call it what you will, he still reacted to the sight of Rahvin and thus wasted time uttering "Rahvin". A similar reaction stopped Semirhage from killing Rand later. Rand was more surprised with her than Rahvin, I allow that.

 

How can Asmodean (who was surprised) = Rand, (who was NOT surprised)? How can Rahvin (who was surprised) = Graendal, (who was NOT surprised)? You've got it completely backwards.

Because comparisons can be made in different ways. With Rand and Rahvin, no one died, and the less surprised attacked. With Graendal and Asmodean Asmo died, and the killer could not afford to be surprised. Another comparison is that Rand and Asmo opened a door to Rahvin and Graendal.

 

I'm not seeing any longer periods of time there, or even any signifigantly greater effort. Its exactly the same as other descriptions of preparing weaves. Perhaps you can find a better example?

Well I can see it. A fireball if probably simple to make, but there you have Lanfear spending a thought for preparing the weave. Certainly she would not need to prepare a ball of fire otherwise. If it did not take longer, Moghedien could have reversed her shields in her fight again Nynaeve in Tanchico.

 

 

That is an absolutely correct detail, which I got wrong. It also has no bearing on the number of steps Asmodean had to take. It is entirely possible to pull open a door, take one step, and be in another room or hallway. Its called, standing beside the door and opening it with your arm. You don't have to back up behind and pull it open like you would pull a wagon or something.

 

Just to make sure, I got up moments ago, and opened the door from my bedroom, in the hallway. It opens into my bedroom, so I had to pull it open, just as Asmodean had to pull open the door leaving the courtyard. I stood beside the doorframe, pulled it open, took one step, and ta-daaaaaa, I was in the hallway.

 

Honestly man, this is not that complicated.

 

 

Certainly you do not get into the hallway. You may take only one step after pulling the door open. If you stand beside the doorway, your step will take you into the doorway, but it is physically impossible to go on the other side, unless you go through the wall to get there. And Asmo pulled open the door, this isn't a question of acrobatics, he was walking normally. I am able to jump into the room in one leap easily, but stepping, that won't do.

 

You assume that the killer started in the courtyard. But that assumption has no basis. RJ went out of his way to demonstrate that people could see into the courtyard from outside of it, by having Rand do exactly that.

 

Already your assumption that someone watching from a window could know to how to get into that room has no basis. RJ showed there was at least one way to see it, but knowing where Asmo was going, knowing he was going, and getting there are issues of their own.

 

I put the killer into the courtyard because I could, but that is irrelevant. What is important is that he could see Asmo.

 

In the diagrams, you'd again put Asmo beyond the doorways. Also there the small door was very unrealistic, in reality by the time Graendal could have known Asmo was going to take the door she would not longer have been able to see him, which would not be possible.

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Beckon, how exactly would Graendal who wasn't expecting Asmo to barge in on her be less surprised to have him open a door on her than Rahvin to deal with Rand? Then neither expected the other, and Graendal was in no danger. Graendal didn't kill just anyone, but Asmodean. No, the killer, even if it was Asunawa, knew Asmo was coming before he opened the door.

 

If you can't see a difference between someone lounging in what they consider to be their own domain, confident in the knowledge that the threat has been dealt with and someone on their guard knowing that Asmodean or Rand could be around any corner at any time I'm not going to keep explaining it. I've already explained it and so have a couple others. If you want to think that Graendal is going to walk through a palace occupied by her enemy in such a dreamy state that she'd be so shocked by someone walking through a door near her that she wouldn't be able to react fast enough to release an already prepared weave that's your prerogative as well.

 

How exactly does a window not give enough information? If you're standing at a window watching someone, you know the location of a door, then you see that someone get up and walk directly toward said door, it's not unreasonable to assume they're going to walk through that door. Further, if the wall seperating you from your target has a long gash in it thanks to Rand and Rhavin's little balefire duel, you'd be able to keep your eye on him for at least part of the time to see that he continues in the same direction.

 

Call it what you will, he still reacted to the sight of Rahvin and thus wasted time uttering "Rahvin". A similar reaction stopped Semirhage from killing Rand later. Rand was more surprised with her than Rahvin, I allow that.

 

What Rand can't walk and talk at the same time?

 

Also nothing could have told anyone in a window that Asmodean wasn't simply walking in the garden.

 

So you're saying that because she doesn't know for a fact that Asmodean is going to actually go through the door he's heading directly for she can't place herself on the other side of it ready to snuff him?

 

You're sitting here talking about all the erroneous things everyone is assuming, you're ignoring details right under your nose in order to assume details that require Graendal to Travel. You assume Graendal doesn't know how to get into the courtyard and therefore doesn't know that there is a door a few feet away or around the corner from her. You assume you know how long it takes to weave something reversed in order to assume that she wouldn't have enough time to react to Asmo unless she Travelled into the room. At the same time you assume that she can Travel, step through her gateway and prepare a killing weave fast enough that she's standing there waiting in the space of time between Asmo reaching for the door and taking a step into the room. You assume that the only possible way she could predict Asmodean's heading is if she followed him out of the couryard and watched him until the instant he reaches for the door handle and then Travels ahead of him while preparing a reversed weave with which to kill him because somehow windows and long gashes in the wall don't give enough information to tell you that if he's walking directly toward a door that he's probably going to go through it. You assume that she'd stroll along through a palace occupied by her enemy completely unprepared for Rand to walk in on her and then when Asmodean who can barely channel enough to light a candle walks in would be so completely flabbergasted that she couldn't react fast enough to kill him in spite of the fact that we've seen numerous examples of people channelling as fast as they can think. You assume that Graendal would assume that Avhienda would not be near enough to feel her channel and/or wouldn't be able to feel it if she was near in order claim that she wouldn't have reversed her weaves because you've assumed that you know how long it takes to reverse. You've assumed that Asmodean would be no more shocked to find Graendal on the other side of that door than Rand was to find Rhavin even though Rand knew Rhavin would be there while Asmodean had no idea Graendal was about, apart from the fact that blood draining from Asmo's face is a fairly good indicator of his surprise. You further assume that after having the advantage of seeing the door begin to open which is a clue that someone is coming through the door, Graendal would still be the more suprised of the two and thus would be startled to the extent that she couldn't channel unreversed weaves because you've assumed reversing is unneccessary because you've assumed that Graendal would assume that Avhienda couldn't feel it anyway...

 

But saying, "well she saw him through a window heading toward a door and went to meet him on the other side of the door with the reversed weaves she had already prepared" is assuming far too much...

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I see the difference, though that isn't the case here. For Rahvin, Rand was in trap A and he was prepared to lead him to the next one, but Rand surprised him by suddenly Travelling in. Still, this isn't the issue here. You have explained it and failed to see the issue as so many others before.

 

What does it mean to be surprised? What does that do to one's ability to act, or react? Why did Rand lose his hand to Semirhage instead of fighting her? Why did Rochaid fail killing Rand in Far Madding, though the reason was not surprise there? The palace was not a dangerous place for Graendal, but such a blind killing could likely have made it so. Rand could have been 2 steps behind, and warned to fight by Asmo dying for all Graendal knew.

 

I know I will sound incredibly arrogant, but my last doubts on whether I'd solved the thing died almost a year ago. I've been at this a long time, and generally consider I've come across and covered all arguments, and if there's something I haven't thought about, I will soon find an answer to it because I am right anyway and thus the answer must exist.

 

As to the window, I remember year and a half ago in the autumn I had a short debate with someone arguing for Sammael on the same grounds, that Sammael had seen Asmo in the garden and intercepted him coming out of it, that time the garden was the one around the palace. I don't remember the main arguments there, I think that wasn't resolved satisfactorily then.

 

A window doesn't give enough information, because you only see what you see when you look out from it. Asmodean's intentions could not be fully determined, since the watcher would have had to leave the window in order to start the intersepting. The courtyard must have been large, for him not to draw the others' attention by dying in it, so there is the question of how did the watcher find a way to the other side of the servants' door. How did he even know it was the one Asmo might take. And since the garden is large, it cannot be immediately obvious where Asmo is going or if he is going anywhere when he rises. There is no information on the alignement of the gash, I don't see how it differs from a window even if it can be seen through.

 

What Rand can't walk and talk at the same time?

It is obvious in the text that he didn't, he gave Rahvin more time with the utterance. It was only human, but still it gave him time. He lost his hand when he was surprised by Semirhage.

 

 

 

So you're saying that because she doesn't know for a fact that Asmodean is going to actually go through the door he's heading directly for she can't place herself on the other side of it ready to snuff him?

 

Exactly how many times should Graendal run around the garden, especially since she cannot possible know the palace well enough to know if she can get around it easily without going into the garden. We know the palace is large and easy to get lost in, even Elayne manages it just because a few corridors have shifted.

 

You're sitting here talking about all the erroneous things everyone is assuming, you're ignoring details right under your nose in order to assume details that require Graendal to Travel. You assume Graendal doesn't know how to get into the courtyard and therefore doesn't know that there is a door a few feet away or around the corner from her. You assume you know how long it takes to weave something reversed in order to assume that she wouldn't have enough time to react to Asmo unless she Travelled into the room. At the same time you assume that she can Travel, step through her gateway and prepare a killing weave fast enough that she's standing there waiting in the space of time between Asmo reaching for the door and taking a step into the room. You assume that the only possible way she could predict Asmodean's heading is if she followed him out of the couryard and watched him until the instant he reaches for the door handle and then Travels ahead of him while preparing a reversed weave with which to kill him because somehow windows and long gashes in the wall don't give enough information to tell you that if he's walking directly toward a door that he's probably going to go through it. You assume that she'd stroll along through a palace occupied by her enemy completely unprepared for Rand to walk in on her and then when Asmodean who can barely channel enough to light a candle walks in would be so completely flabbergasted that she couldn't react fast enough to kill him in spite of the fact that we've seen numerous examples of people channelling as fast as they can think. You assume that Graendal would assume that Avhienda would not be near enough to feel her channel and/or wouldn't be able to feel it if she was near in order claim that she wouldn't have reversed her weaves because you've assumed that you know how long it takes to reverse. You've assumed that Asmodean would be no more shocked to find Graendal on the other side of that door than Rand was to find Rhavin even though Rand knew Rhavin would be there while Asmodean had no idea Graendal was about, apart from the fact that blood draining from Asmo's face is a fairly good indicator of his surprise. You further assume that after having the advantage of seeing the door begin to open which is a clue that someone is coming through the door, Graendal would still be the more suprised of the two and thus would be startled to the extent that she couldn't channel unreversed weaves because you've assumed reversing is unneccessary because you've assumed that Graendal would assume that Avhienda couldn't feel it anyway...

 

But saying, "well she saw him through a window heading toward a door and went to meet him on the other side of the door with the reversed weaves she had already prepared" is assuming far too much...

 

I don't necessarily ignore things, only there are many details when you get down to it, it is not useful to start listing every possibility that might exist.

 

Graendal cannot know the palace architecture well. It is made clear in the books that people who have not been there much need a guide. In such a place, you do not get everywhere from everywhere, especially to the other side of a door meant for servants. Graendal could not try it, it would make no sense, if she did not know she could do it. Also, there are many, many similar gardens in the palace.

 

I grant the time needed for reversal for I cannot expect it to have been used in the sudden travelling. I don't require Graendal to have killed with a reversed weave. Just kill and get out of there with the body and no one's the wiser.

 

Channelling is fast. People are not machines. Beckon, you have not understood the point, I cannot explain it better than I have. A good version is in the beginning of the Structured discussion. Save that reversal can be done as one weaves, and it is possible to move about invisible.

 

Heh, no I think she can guess Asmo's going to take the door when he approaches it. Only, without Travelling, she cannot wait to see, because she has to run some awful fast to get behind it, which means she won't see him going there. And it is a servants' door.

 

Yes, I think if she was going to kill Rand while in the Palace, we would have noticed. She was in no danger from Rand, even if he stumbled on her. "Oh, old Marsi just come to dust the floor."

 

Rahvin certainly was so flabbergasted he couldn't do anything.

 

There's awfwul many of these, but they amount to the same thing. To the last, yes it is assuming far too much, without even realising what one is assuming. I understand you point and what you're saying, but I know mine, and I know I've considered it through many times. The window approach simply doesn't work. But yea, CT is probably right in a way, if I didn't consider it immodest I would say I understand nowadays why it took so long for people to puzzle out the killer... I think I'm no longer fit to debate the issue, but the main thing is, if you hit you thumb with a hammer, you will not be fully in control of yourself for a small while.

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What does it mean to be surprised? What does that do to one's ability to act, or react? Why did Rand lose his hand to Semirhage instead of fighting her? Why did Rochaid fail killing Rand in Far Madding, though the reason was not surprise there? The palace was not a dangerous place for Graendal, but such a blind killing could likely have made it so. Rand could have been 2 steps behind, and warned to fight by Asmo dying for all Graendal knew.

 

Why is Lanfear able to defend herself against Rand when they meet in the Stone while having no warning that he's about to channel? Why is Rand able to stop a dagger thrown by Bashere an arms-length away from himself when he was not holding Saidin and had no way to know Bashere would suddenly fling a knife at him?

 

To address some of your points:

 

1) If you see someone walking toward a door that is a few steps to one side of you, it's not necessary to exert yourself in any way to put yourself there, ready to intercept. In fact if you're that close I fail to see why you wouldn't do it since it's just a matter of a few steps and it could be the opportunity you're waiting for.

 

2)If Mat and Avi are facing the opposite direction next to a fountain that would drown out Asmo's words, the window Graendal is watching from does not afford them a view to the murder.

 

3)The gash is described as long when Asmodean sees it. Based on the description when it happens it's an arm-thick bar of balefire sweeping across the hallway like a sword damaging both sides of the hall about chest high on Rand, so not much below eye-level to a woman. It's a long horizontal slice out of the wall, affording a much broader view of the courtyard beyond than a window would.

 

4) Graendal doesn't need to know the whole palace to see that there's a door a few feet away. If for example she started in the sitting room leading to the courtyard, the balefire and Rand busting into the room destroyed the doors. Anyone in that room could have easily seen down the entire length of that hallway without moving. They could see any doors letting onto it and also whether anyone else was coming.

 

5) I realize people are not machines but we've seen people over and over react and channel as fast as thought. If she can weave a gateway, step through, prepare an unreversed weave in the time it takes Asmodean to open a door (with time to spare to let go her disguise and make sure he recognized her) then she can release an already prepared weave in that same time. Now don't start talking about surprise here because being on the other side of the door she'd have the advantage of seeing it begin to open before Asmodean would be able to see that there was someone in the hallway. It didn't take Rhavin more than an instant in spite of his surprise (which would be greater than Graendal's because he thought he knew Rand was either dead or busy dealing with one of his many traps) to realize he needed to get the heck out and it wouldn't take Graendal any longer to decide to release her weave. Apart from which, she isn't surprised because she saw Asmodean get up and begin to walk toward the door by which she is waiting.

 

I know I will sound incredibly arrogant, but my last doubts on whether I'd solved the thing died almost a year ago. I've been at this a long time, and generally consider I've come across and covered all arguments, and if there's something I haven't thought about, I will soon find an answer to it because I am right anyway and thus the answer must exist.

 

You sound like Elaida: "I already know I'm right so any new information can only be further proof of it."

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Guest Fire Lord

Just for the record, I don't support Graendal, and it's sure strange seeing two of her supporters fiercely arguing, but hey, that's democracy for you! :D

 

But I do agree with Graendal's favourite on the door opening thing. I've tried it a few times myself. If you're immediately behind, you will have to step back to allow the door to open.

If you are beside it like RAW said, ONE step will take you in the doorway at most, not on the other side, and you are still mostly on the side you are coming from. There is no way in the Pit of Doom you can step on the other side, unless you have one pair of really long legs. By all accounts Asmo was in no hurry, so I would assume that he took just a small step.

 

Besides, I find it too convenient that when Asmo started walking he headed in the general direction of Graendal's post of observation (that way she could afford to wait long enough to be certain Asmo was headed for that small door, and then head for it herself) as Beckon would have it be. I do not discount this, given Rand's presence; that in itself twists chances, and add the fact that Mat is there as well. But if that's the case, (and we have no way to know), then there is a possibility Graendal didn't need to Travel.

 

However, in the event that Graendal was on the other side of the courtyard, then she would definitely need to Travel.

 

But do we know if there is any pattern to Asmo's movements? From what I remember, he was drifting along. Hell, I don't think he himself knew where he was headed. I saw the diagrams, and I would say that they are at most tentative (I get the feeling that everyone who drew one had in mind their OWN scenario, thus designed it to accomodate their view).

And judging by how much different they are, I can only conclude (beside information from the books) that we have no clear idea of what the courtyard looks like.

 

Add the fact that we actually don't know WHERE that small door led? Most people seem to assume it was in some hallway, but I am not convinced. It could as well have been into a small chamber or something. I have no idea of the architecture of the palace, if someone does, they can enlighten me.

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We don't have any idea what the courtyard looks like, nor is there any indication of any pattern to Asmodean's steps.

 

 

My intent has never been to present a detailed scenario for how it all went down. What I disagree with is the notion that the sight of Asmodean walking through a door would be sufficiently shocking to someone who knows he's around that her reflexes would be significantly slowed...unless she'd been in the courtyard with him, followed him around until she saw he was about to go through a door, Travelled to the other side of the door without having the foggiest notion of who or what might be on the other side, taking no care to reverse her weaves despite the fact that she has good reason to suspect that there might be several female channelers around who could sense what she does, knowing that Rand can feel a woman chanelling and would likely have been told so by Asmodean if he didn't already know...

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We don't have any idea what the courtyard looks like' date=' nor is there any indication of any pattern to Asmodean's steps.[/quote']

The same or possibly a similar courtyard is used in LoC for Rand's swordfights and so on (connects near to the throne room and so on). But I'm still looking for where in the series it makes clear Graendal knows nothing about Caemlyn Palace (well, it's one of the funnier assumptions in Graendal's Favorite's last...but as long as your mind is made up, why discuss it here then GF?) ;)

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Certainly you do not get into the hallway. You may take only one step after pulling the door open. If you stand beside the doorway, your step will take you into the doorway, but it is physically impossible to go on the other side, unless you go through the wall to get there. And Asmo pulled open the door, this isn't a question of acrobatics, he was walking normally. I am able to jump into the room in one leap easily, but stepping, that won't do.

 

This is the sort of thing that drives me crazy.

 

I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I DO THIS EVERY DAY. The door to my bedroom opens into the bedroom. I stand beside (not directly in front of) the doorframe, pull the door open, and step into the hall. One step. Every day. I don't jump. I don't leap. And I'm shorter than Asmodean.

 

 

One does not have to back up behind a door as one pulls it open. It is entirely possible, even convenient, to pull a door open from a stationary poisition within inches of the threshold without moving one's feet. If you cannot understand this, then neither I, not anyone else, will be able to successfully conduct any kind of spatially oriented conversation with you in here.

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To Beckon, Lanfear defending herself is very interesting indeed, it seems even if one is of the opposite sex one can sense an attack with saidin/saidar. However, for both Lanfear agaisnt Rand and Rand against Bashere, what they did was a reaction, a reflexive defence, the same you'd cover your face if something comes at your face suddenly. They were not surprised by anything there. Asmodean was surprised by Graendal's presence in front of her, this dulled his reflexes, the same as Rand's were dulled by Semirhage's appearance, with the difference that unlike Graendal, Semirhage was surprised at her cover being blown.

 

1) Because if it is a door to the garden where Mat and Aviendha sit a few spans away it is not a very good idea. If the Garden is large, the distance behind to door is also larger, and it is more complicated to get there.

 

I want to draw attention especially to the fact that this is the royal palace of Andor, the richest country in Randland, and the door is small. It is not meant ever to be used by the nobility or their guests, thus it is not trivial to find one's way to the other side of it. Asmodean wanted to enter the servant's ways because there would be no other way to the pantry, but from the public corridors there will absolutely not be all that many ways there. Even if Graendal'd find the room or corridor from the other side, she would not even be certain it was the right door, likely. All this and other reasons make attacking him in that way unrealistic.

 

2) it still was not less than 10 spans away. This is, the garden becoming larger, like trying to fix a bugdet deficit by expanding the business-- yes, your income increases, but not as fast as your expences.

 

3) It isnt described as horizontal or vertical. Rand spent a good time using balefire between povs, there's nothing can be concluded from the gash.

 

4) But the palace is just huge. None of the gardens we've seen before, and we've seen many, are the same as this one. How could she know what servant's doors lead where from which gardens, she cannot be interested in it.

 

5) I maintain, in that murder paragraph, RJ clearly describs a very short time. If the time was longer that very short, there would be more words in the paragraph. Must trust the writing, or it can't be solved. I'd agree with the last sentence, but I reiterate that it is only possible trough travelling.

 

You sound like Elaida: "I already know I'm right so any new information can only be further proof of it."

Yea, and it isn't very good for discussions, and I have no desire to pretend otherwise. A fact of life, you can't do these things longer than a certain time, after that it just becomes something else that it was. Yea, I'll leave this to others (for the moment anyway...), as nice as the conversation with you has been, Beckon. I've gathered practice in leaving discussions without conceding anything. :wink:

 

CB, We have everyone's account who've been in the palace. It should be clear enough Graendal didn't know much of it. I discuss it here, because I missed the discussion, and this started as a Semirhage or Sammael the second best discussion. I refuse to consider help from later books than FoH, so for me Semirhage remains the second best suspect, but I thought the topic interesting for a change. I wonder what would come of a poll: yes, she did it, but suppose she didn't, then who did? Besides, I thought I should point out I consider the other Graendal solutions guesses, in case some people become too sure of themselves. But it is not my intention to provoke more discussion now.

 

RAW, are you sure you don't take two steps when you do this, or is the door by chance shorter than your stride? Here is a picture that gives my thoughts on the matter:

 

door.jpg

 

The ovals in the picture should be wider, the width representing width of shoulders, but in a geometry like anything like that, it is not possible to get on the other side. If you stand beside the door, how do you walk into the doorway without stepping sideways first?

 

Well, no need to become overwrought about this, but I'm hold my views.

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At the risk of becoming bogged down in something silly, let me say this:

 

Yes, I'm sure that I only take one step.

 

You are not taking into account that it is possible, even easy, to open a door from a position next to the doorframe, rather than immediately in front of the door, which means that one can open it without having to move out of the way, even if it opens into the room one is currently occupying, leaving one mere inches from the threshold when it is open.

 

I can't think of an easy way to animate this, and I'm too lazy to do it the hard way. If you don't believe me, then fine. But it is both easy and commonly done.

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Well, must admit then that this goes beyond my comprehension. I could swear if the door is small enough compared to your stride, you will still not be able to clear the doorway because you will have to turn sideways too, which in turn taxes the length of stride.

 

At the risk of sounding very stupid, do you by chance-- say you open the door with your right hand, it swings right-- do you make the step with your left or right foot, or can you use either? I would say only the right foot useful in that configuration, and standing next to the door, it will step into where the door had been, after which you see into the doorway, but are not in it. Well, this certainly is a strange discussion, perhaps we should, leave it at that.

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One step - with either foot - begins with both feet on the ground - one foot is then lifted, advanced, and placed back on the ground. Thus endeth ONE STEP.

 

If your back foot leaves the ground, then you are taking two steps.

 

Since you begin moving through a doorway with both feet on one side of the door, you cannot get both feet - and your entire body as well - through a doorway in a single step - that would require hopping. Asmo didn't hop. Asmo was frozen in the middle of the doorway - back foot still in the hallway, front foot just inside the room, body just about squarely under the top of the doorjamb - when he died.

 

One step and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.

 

He didn't stop and close the door. He stopped, uttered, "You? No!", and died.

 

In fact, if the door opens toward you and you are standing beside it to open it, your first step merely takes you to the middle of the opening, still on the side of the doorway whence you began the exercise. It is only if the door opens away from you that your first step will put you inside the doorway opening.

 

In neither case, will a single step place you on the other side of the opening.

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Do you all realize you're arguing over a matter of inches?

 

I agree you're probably still in the doorway after ones step, unless you're purposely trying to get as far into the next room as possible in a single step, which Asmo was most certainly not doing.

 

But seriously, the murderer, regardless of who anyone thinks it is, can kill Asmodean just as effectively on one side of the door as on the other.

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