one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Graendals favourite]

Indeed, Aviendha did not feel her own still open gateway in The Far Snows/A Short Spear; she did not know how to return; the Seanchan certainly felt it to find it-- Why would she have felt a Gateway in Caemlyn?

[Beckon]

The person behind that door doesn't need to know Asmo is coming to have the upper hand. It's reasonable to assume that someone poking around in the enemy's lair as it were would rather EXPECT to be walked in on and have a shield and/or killing weave prepared just in case. We've seen numerous instances of people weaving a shield or whatever in case it's needed.

 

They're going to position themselves to keep any windows or doors in their view. They also presumably know Rand's got Asmo on a leash so seeing him would not be cause for any overwhelming surprise. Add to that the fact that Asmo can barely channel and any of the Forsaken would be able to kill him before he could blink.

 

Lanfear's MIA, Rhavin is balefired, Sammy is sort of available but we've just been told by Moggy that he's waiting in Illian to ambush Rand there, and Graendal is unaccounted for. We've heard of Semirhage but Graendal has much more cause to care what goes down at Caemlyn. Process of elimination.

 

BrainFireBob said it best.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, what Graendal did might have been felt by Aviendha.

 

Then why didn't she react to someone channeling a few yards away?

 

She would have seen Aviendha in the garden, but the killing did not take so long that she would have to consider her, or care if she felt.

 

Considering the whole "stealthy" nature of the business, I think she would have cared. Graendal is more wary of modern channelers than the other Forsaken (see one of several examples in ACoS chapter 20).

 

 

in The Short Spear, it was Rand who noticed the Seanchan, not Aviendha, even though it was likely the damane had channelled at some point.

 

I'm sorry, why would the damane channel at "some point"? Wouldn't they know that just gives away their position? I'm not sure why you make that assumption.

 

 

 

So because we don't know whether Aviendha should have felt it, and we don't know whether she did feet it, her existence is neutral.

 

I'm not sure I followed you there ... are you saying that because Aviendha, according to you, may or may not be able to feel a woman channeling, that Graendal would have grounds to disregard her? How would Graendal possibly know that, even in the unlikely event that it is the case? How is she going to base her decision on something that she doesn't know? All she would know is that there is a relatively powerful modern female channeler easily within sensing distance.

 

Inverting and reversing offer different possibilities.

 

I know. I understand the difference.

 

The necessity to gate there comes from having to know of Asmodean coming before he does.

 

Its still not necessary. Asmodean didn't run to the door that he exited through. Anyone watching the courtyard from outside would have had plenty of time to see where he was going, and move into position. Let me illustrate with a crude diagram:

 

 

Number Key:

 

1. Aviendha and Mat

 

2. Asmodean's starting position

 

3. Asmodean's death position

 

4. Killer's starting position

 

5. Killer's striking position

 

6. Rand's window, one floor up

 

If the Killer (lets call her, Graendal) saw Asmodean at position 2 from position 4 before he started moving, and waited until he began to move, then she (or he) could easily see where he was going, and move to position 5 before Asmodean moseyed over to position 3.

 

That scenario fits all the descriptions we have, and allows a no-gateway-to-the-door kill easily.

 

 

As to this:

 

Indeed, Aviendha did not feel her own still open gateway in The Far Snows/A Short Spear; she did not know how to return; the Seanchan certainly felt it to find it-- Why would she have felt a Gateway in Caemlyn?

 

When Avi said that to Rand, they were in their nice little igloo, miles away. Of course she couldn't feel it. Rand could only feel his weave holding it open because

 

1) He is more sensitive than Avi, and

 

2) It almost certainly takes more Power to hold a gateway open than to make one.

 

As far as not knowing how to get home, she said this:

 

"I am not certain that I remember what I did to make the hole, Rand al'Thor" (emphasis added)

 

She didn't remember how to make a gateway. That has nothing to do her sensitivity to saidar.

 

In fact, her sensitivity is demonstrated later in that same episode. When the Seanchan do catch up with them, she can sense the sul'dam's ability to channel. Neither she nor Rand, at that point, knew that sul'dam were women who could learn. (In fact, thats where Rand starts to figure it out) She felt their ability.

 

(All this from TFoH, chapters 31 and 32 )

 

In short, if Sammael had to worry about being sensed, then so did Graendal. But, neither of them did, because whoever was there (Graendal) was reversing for all they were worth.

[scarredpelt]

Intuitively obvious:

 

Rahvin' date=' Lanfear, Sammael, and Graendal plot together.

 

Rahvin's dead, Lanfear's MIA, and Sammael's waiting in Illian.

 

What's the obvious question to ask? "Where's Graendal?"

 

Then Asmodean dies. Then you go "Oh, there's Graendal."[/quote']

 

YES! Someone finally makes the ultimate convincing argument.

[Graendals favourite]

The person behind that door doesn't need to know Asmo is coming to have the upper hand. It's reasonable to assume that someone poking around in the enemy's lair as it were would rather EXPECT to be walked in on and have a shield and/or killing weave prepared just in case. We've seen numerous instances of people weaving a shield or whatever in case it's needed.

 

They're going to position themselves to keep any windows or doors in their view. They also presumably know Rand's got Asmo on a leash so seeing him would not be cause for any overwhelming surprise. Add to that the fact that Asmo can barely channel and any of the Forsaken would be able to kill him before he could blink.

 

What you say is true, but it doesn't take into account how Asmodean was killed. Reread the murder paragraph, and you see that there is no time for the killer not to be prepared to do what he did exactly when Asmodean walked in. The issue is not to be able to kill Asmodean, but to be able to do it as it was done. The situation is fully comparable to Rand Gating to Rahvin's throne room: Rahvin would have killed Rand then and there, if Asmo's killer didn't need to know of Asmo's coming beforehand.

 

 

Then why didn't she react to someone channeling a few yards away?

 

It was not a few yeard away, since neither heard the words "you know" either. They are far more sinister than a feel of someone channelling. It would be different if Aviendha were better trained, and she knew what she felt, but Aviendha was not. At her stage she may or may not feel a thing. She may or may not realise what she is feeling. She may or may not trust what she is feeling. Had it been Moiraine in the courtyard, no question, she would have felt it.

 

The situation is similar to Egwene ridiculously channelling at the house the Tar Valon embassy is staying at in Cairhien. Of course, she herself would not have felt it were the situation reversed, but it goes without saying the Aes Sedai inside felt themselves being channelled at from outside.

 

Considering the whole "stealthy" nature of the business, I think she would have cared. Graendal is more wary of modern channelers than the other Forsaken (see one of several examples in ACoS chapter 20).

She might have cared some, but not enough, when it meant Asmodean escaping her. In practice, there was no risk to herself, especially since she could hide what had happened, which is that someone died. When truth might be found out, nothing would lead to her.

 

 

I'm sorry, why would the damane channel at "some point"? Wouldn't they know that just gives away their position? I'm not sure why you make that assumption.

I concede that that is true, I had not fully considered the situation.

 

I'm not sure I followed you there ... are you saying that because Aviendha, according to you, may or may not be able to feel a woman channeling, that Graendal would have grounds to disregard her? How would Graendal possibly know that, even in the unlikely event that it is the case? How is she going to base her decision on something that she doesn't know? All she would know is that there is a relatively powerful modern female channeler easily within sensing distance.

I meant that for us considering evidence, Aviendha's presence is neutral as evidence. Her presence does not preclude channelling in the palace.

 

I will continue the reply shortly when I can include an illustration of my own.

[Graendals favourite]

If the Killer (lets call her, Graendal) saw Asmodean at position 2 from position 4 before he started moving, and waited until he began to move, then she (or he) could easily see where he was going, and move to position 5 before Asmodean moseyed over to position 3.

 

Your illustration fails in that it places Asmodean dying inside the door, when in reality, he died outside the small door he had just opened. One step is not sufficient to take one from the room one is in, when one has to pull open a door before taking it. Yet Asmodean hardly died in the courtyard where Aviendha and Mat were. This is how it must have happened, something like it:

 

 

where yellows are Aviendha and Mat, red the killer, the bluey colour Asmo, and black where the murderer must have awaited Asmo (contrary to the picture, the door opened outside).

When Avi said that to Rand, they were in their nice little igloo, miles away. Of course she couldn't feel it. Rand could only feel his weave holding it open because

 

Yet properly trained channellers such as the Forsaken would have felt it. Aviendha's feeling is not very accute.

 

She felt their ability.

That is a completely different thing, than feeling someone channelling. Neither did Aviendha apparently notice Moiraine eavesdropping on Rand in secret.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Reread the murder paragraph, and you see that there is no time for the killer not to be prepared to do what he did exactly when Asmodean walked in.

 

Sure there is. We have no idea how long the killer was watching Asmodean, and channeling is as quick as thought. Asmodean walked out of the courtyard at a leisurely pace, ruminating as he went. As far as the method used to kill Asmo, balefire seems likely, and the killer could have been 15 or 20 feet away. She didn't have to get right up next to him.

 

The situation with Rand is totally different. Rand was full of the Power, expecting attack, when he Travelled to chase Rahvin. He wasn't surprised, or frightened, and he was coming through a gateway Rahvin didn't expect him to know how to make (RJ said so ... "Now as to Rahvin sitting on his throne and being shocked to see Rand. First off, he knew his first trap hadn't worked, but he had others ready. He saw no reason to start jumping about. He thought he was maneuvering Rand into a series of traps, one of which he was sure would work. He did not expect Rand to simply leap into the same room with him. He did not expect Rand to know that he could Travel to somewhere in sight of himself without knowing the ground. So what he had expected to be a chess game where he knew the positions of all the pieces and Rand did not suddenly turned into a close-quarters slugging match. Surprise!" from his blog here: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26)

 

So, the situations are not comparable at all. Rand got the drop on Rahvin, by doing something he didn't expect. The Killer could have (and almost certainly did) see Asmo coming, and was ready. Rand was full of the Power. Asmo was not.

 

LOL ... incidentally, as to re-reading the paragraph (I know that wasn't directed at me, but ...) I did, immediately before I posted. It was sitting in my lap as I made the diagram. I'm very, very aware of what it says.

 

It was not a few yeard away, since neither heard the words "you know" either.

 

Aviendha and Mat were sitting by a fountain, and gurgling fountains are notorious for masking other sounds. On the other hand, the sound of the fountain wouldn't have obscured the feel of someone channeling at all.

 

Had it been Moiraine in the courtyard, no question, she would have felt it.

 

Unless it was reversed. Why would Graendal take a completely unnecessary chance by not reversing her weave? It takes only a little more effort, and not any extra time, from the descriptions we have. She wouldn't know how sensitive or unsensitive Aviendha was.

 

The situation is similar to Egwene ridiculously channelling at the house the Tar Valon embassy is staying at in Cairhien. Of course, she herself would not have felt it were the situation reversed, but it goes without saying the Aes Sedai inside felt themselves being channelled at from outside.

 

Huh? Why do you assume Egwene would not have felt it? I'm not sure where you're getting this idea ... all the girls have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to feel saidar being embraced and channeled by this point in the story. In fact, in the very episode you mentioned (in LoC ch. 25), Egwene knew where the Aes Sedai were because she felt them channeling saidar inside.

 

She might have cared some, but not enough, when it meant Asmodean escaping her.

 

If she cared at all, even a tiny bit, why not go ahead and reverse the weave? Why take a completely unnecessary chance by not doing so? And how would reversing the weave allow Asmodean to escape? It doesn't take any extra time to weave it that way, it just takes a little more skill and effort.

 

One step is not sufficient to take one from the room one is in, when one has to pull open a door before taking it.

 

I'm sorry, but the text specifically says "He pulled open the small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

If the door opened into the hallway, rather than into the courtyard, then one step is plenty, and the text specifically says thats all he took.

 

My diagram has him dying one step into a hallway surrounding the courtyard. Whether the hall was surrounding it, or running at a tangent, he still died precisely one step into it. We don't know the exact shape and dimension of the courtyard, but there are several configurations that work. I picked the easiest one, to me, to draw.

 

where yellows are Aviendha and Mat, red the killer, the bluey colour Asmo, and black where the murderer must have awaited Asmo (contrary to the picture, the door opened outside).

 

Your illustration has the killer IN the courtyard, apparently following Asmodean out. There is nothing in the text to suggest that, indeed, since the killer was in front of Asmodean when he was one step through the door, what you have illustrated cannot fit.

 

Yet properly trained channellers such as the Forsaken would have felt it.

 

Whatever Graendal would have been doing, it was much, much closer to Aviendha than the gateway Aviendha made was to her honeymoon igloo. Besides, Aviendha didn't say she couldn't feel the gateway, she said she didn't remember how she made it.

 

Aviendha had been training with the Wise Ones for months by the time Asmodean was killed. Its simply ludicrous to think that she couldn't detect a woman channeling within a hundred feet of her, unless the woman was reversing her weaves. The courtyard wasn't that big.

 

Aviendha's feeling is not very accute.

 

Please cite some kind of verifiable episode that demonstrates that. Because I never once, in any reading or re-reading, got that impression. From everything all the people training her say, she catches on to everything pretty darn quickly.

 

That is a completely different thing, than feeling someone channelling.

 

The abilities are related and developed in a similar time frame. Aviendha had been training since they left Rhuidean, over three months previously. She could certainly sense saidar being embraced and woven, unless they were reversed.

[Beckon]

What you say is true, but it doesn't take into account how Asmodean was killed. Reread the murder paragraph, and you see that there is no time for the killer not to be prepared to do what he did exactly when Asmodean walked in.

 

RAW already said it but sure there is. Asmo walks in, recognizes, says "You?", the blood drains from his face, says "No!", dies. From the killers point of view someone walks in through the door she's been watching because she knows she's surrounded by the enemy, she recognizes Asmo, lets go her weave, he's dead. We've seen people channel a weave as fast as they can think it even when they're not holding the source with weaves already prepared. Had the killer cared to, she could have had Asmo dead before he had the door open far enough to even realize he wasn't alone.

 

The Traveling scenario really doesn't afford any more time. The killing doesn't happen til after he's opened the door and had time to recognize the killer in either case. Indeed the only difference between the two scenarios is that in one the killer is waiting for Asmo specifically and in the other the killer is waiting for whoever has the misfortune of walking through that door.

[Graendals favourite]

Sure there is. We have no idea how long the killer was watching Asmodean, and channeling is as quick as thought. Asmodean walked out of the courtyard at a leisurely pace, ruminating as he went. As far as the method used to kill Asmo, balefire seems likely, and the killer could have been 15 or 20 feet away. She didn't have to get right up next to him.

 

You assume the killer could have been watching Asmodean before he entered the room. That is not possible unless the killer Travelled behind the door. The time I mean in the post you reply to is the time between Asmo opening the door and dying, not him leaving the fountain.

 

 

The situation with Rand is totally different. Rand was full of the Power, expecting attack, when he Travelled to chase Rahvin. He wasn't surprised, or frightened, and he was coming through a gateway Rahvin didn't expect him to know how to make (RJ said so ... "Now as to Rahvin sitting on his throne and being shocked to see Rand. First off, he knew his first trap hadn't worked, but he had others ready. He saw no reason to start jumping about. He thought he was maneuvering Rand into a series of traps, one of which he was sure would work. He did not expect Rand to simply leap into the same room with him. He did not expect Rand to know that he could Travel to somewhere in sight of himself without knowing the ground. So what he had expected to be a chess game where he knew the positions of all the pieces and Rand did not suddenly turned into a close-quarters slugging match. Surprise!" from his blog here: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26)

 

Exactly. Here Asmodean= Rand, Rahvin = Graendal. Asmodean differs in the respect that he was more surprised than Rand, but if Graendal was as Rahvin, there would have been no killing. I'll quote the two for comparison:

 

"Fire burst from the two Trollocs, a flame at every pore, bursting through black mail. Even as their mouths opened to scream, a gateway opened right where they stood. Bloody halves of burning, cleanly sliced Trolloc fell, but Rand was staring through the opening. Not into blackness, but a great columned hall with lion-carved stone panels, where a large man with wings of white in his dark hair started up in surprise from a gilded throne. A dozen men, some dressed as lords, some in breastplates, turned to see what their master was looking at.

Rand barely noticed them. "Rahvin," he said. Or someone did. He was not sure who.

Sending fire and lightning ahead of him, he stepped through and let the gateway close behind him. He was death."

 

"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

Rand knew Rahvin was in the Palace, yet he was still surprised to come face to face with him, to say "Rahvin." Rahvin was completely surprised that Rand could just appear. Asmodean was completely surprised that he suddenly opened a door to Graendal. Graendal was not surprised, because to kill Asmo that way, she could not afford the time, she had no time to be surprised that Asmo suddenly walked in on her.

 

I do not doubt you are aware of what the paragraph says, but quite a many make the mistake of reading it as if the people in the books are sitting in armchairs contemplating their actions. It happens the easier the more you analyse something. Yet, what the paragraph says, is there was no more time than in Rand attacking Rahvin in that other quote, less.

 

 

Unless it was reversed. Why would Graendal take a completely unnecessary chance by not reversing her weave? It takes only a little more effort, and not any extra time, from the descriptions we have. She wouldn't know how sensitive or unsensitive Aviendha was.

Oh, it does take more time. And more effort. Remember the small ball of fire Cyndane shot at the Cleansing? She had to especially concentrate in making it. Without the reversion, you do not need to do such a thing, she will loose it without thought. Why did Leane prepare all her reversed weaves beforehand in CoT? Because she did not want to take the time later. Now, when Asmodean showed signs of approaching a specific small door, there would have been no time to start reversing a gateway. There is time to Travel behind the door, but not the reversal, and she couldn't be ready to travel there beforehand.

 

 

 

Huh? Why do you assume Egwene would not have felt it? I'm not sure where you're getting this idea ... all the girls have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to feel saidar being embraced and channeled by this point in the story. In fact, in the very episode you mentioned (in LoC ch. 25), Egwene knew where the Aes Sedai were because she felt them channeling saidar inside.

I make the assumption because she didn't expect it, she tried the eavesdropping in the first place. As if the Aes Sedai could fail to detect it so close. The same as Nynaeve and Elayne needed to be close to the Black Ajah in Tanchico when they happened to channel, the same street near enough. For Moghedien in the city was enough, but the Black sisters surely would have felt it further away.

 

 

If she cared at all, even a tiny bit, why not go ahead and reverse the weave? Why take a completely unnecessary chance by not doing so? And how would reversing the weave allow Asmodean to escape? It doesn't take any extra time to weave it that way, it just takes a little more skill and effort.

 

Again, because she had no time. It takes a little more skill and effort and time. After Asmo had taken the small door, she would probably not have been able to follow him. Soon I get to reply to the door swinging outward which is relevant here.

 

I'm sorry, but the text specifically says "He pulled open the small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

If the door opened into the hallway, rather than into the courtyard, then one step is plenty, and the text specifically says thats all he took.

 

My diagram has him dying one step into a hallway surrounding the courtyard. Whether the hall was surrounding it, or running at a tangent, he still died precisely one step into it. We don't know the exact shape and dimension of the courtyard, but there are several configurations that work. I picked the easiest one, to me, to draw.

 

The door opened into wherever Asmo was coming from; he pulled open the door, he did not push it open. Thus, after the motion of pulling it open, he stood about a small door's distance from the doorway, or he would have hit himself with the door swinging it open. This distance is longer than any normal stride of a human: one step will leave you still in the same space where you were, though you are practically in the doorway, you see practically only into the space formerly behind the door. However, this all means, that physically you are still where you came from, not in the space formerly behind the door. It is important for the sound carrying, and for that you are very much in full view from behind.

 

Your illustration has the killer IN the courtyard, apparently following Asmodean out. There is nothing in the text to suggest that, indeed, since the killer was in front of Asmodean when he was one step through the door, what you have illustrated cannot fit.

 

Exactly, only by Travelling will the killer end up behind that door. But this is the only way it could happen, so that it what happened. The killer travelled two instants after he knew Asmo was going to take the small door.

 

 

Aviendha has not been that long with the Wise Ones, but I repeat, you configuration does not work, in your diagram Asmo died in the courtyard.

 

Beckon, I repeat the same as for RAW, Asmo took one step into the doorway, during it he recognised the killer, so he stopped his face draining of blood and uttered "you?" Immediately at the heels of this he said "No!", which means that during the "You?" he saw he would die, to respond to it, and as the words hung in the air, at the heels of the "No!" he was dead. He didn't even have time to twitch a finger. My description there is terribly awkward, but the point is, that this happened FAST. It was one step and two words, with Asmo barely into the doorway.

[Beckon]

And how exactly does Traveling into the room allow her MORE time than if she was standing there waiting with weaves already prepared? Your version of events changes NOTHING other than her means of entering the room. How she got in there does not change the fact that Asmodean had time to fully open the door and take a step in, then recognize her and realize she's about to kill him, then speak two syllables. This is NOT instantaneous, it would be a measurable amount of time, easily a 2-3 seconds if not more.

 

I'm not suggesting she was just lounging about wasting time unprepared for any danger. It's not like Rhavin where he believed he was in no danger because one of his traps would surely catch Rand and even if it didn't he's certainly not going to Travel right into the same room. Rhavin is sitting there congratulating himself on his resounding victory when Rand appears full of the Power, with an angreal and after his blood.

 

I'm saying she's lurking around, holding the Power, carefully watching any doorways and windows, with weaves prepared to kill anyone who discovers her presence. Someone does discover her and she unleashes an already prepared weave which she can easily do in the time it takes for a person to open a door, take a step and speak two syllables. She doesn't need any time to recognize who has found her and decide whether to kill them. She's prepared to kill anyone who discovers her. So much the better that it's Asmodean the traitor.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I'm saying there is a crucial time difference there. Travelling, she knows Asmodean is about to open the door, otherwise she doesn't know he is going to come. Travelling, she has her weave ready for release, only the human reaction time there, otherwise, she would not have been able to act so quickly. The act to kill had to start before the "You?" ended! Asmo died when his stunned reaction to it, "no!" ended.

 

Killing everything that moves is hardly lurking. She doesn't need to do that, she can move about invisible even. If she hadn't known Asmo was coming, she would have had no way of knowing he was alone.

[Beckon]

Yea' date=' I'm saying there is a crucial time difference there. Travelling, she knows Asmodean is about to open the door, otherwise she doesn't know he is going to come. Travelling, she has her weave ready for release, only the human reaction time there, otherwise, she would not have been able to act so quickly. The act to kill had to start before the "You?" ended! Asmo died when his stunned reaction to it, "no!" ended.

 

Killing everything that moves is hardly lurking. She doesn't need to do that, she can move about invisible even.[/quote']

 

She doesn't need to know anyone is going to open the door, much less that Asmodean will. What I'm proposing is that she is aware of her surroundings, doing her best to remain unseen and has weaves ready to kill should the need arise. If she's in there to start with, she has time to see the door begin to open before Asmodean is able to walk through, take a step and begin to speak. All that's left is to let the weave go. I'm not even remotely suggesting that she's galavanting around in plain sight killing everything that moves.

[Graendals favourite]

But there's no time even then. First off, Asmo's one of the only people whom she'd wish to kill in the Palace. The palace is empty, so it is extremely unlikely that anyone would come, but that it is Asmodean is very unlikely. What if he is with Rand, and Rand is only a step behind. The next thing she's in a fight with Rand. She wouldn't be able to know he was alone. Also, there's no need for this, no one would threaten her going about in the palace, because no one would know she was one of the Forsaken as long as she was careful. I think she even listened in on what Rand told Bashere, the same as she was collecting Sammael's treasures later with Rand in and out.

 

Secondly, even if she is wary, if some who is Asmodean suddenly opens a door in front of her, she would be surprised as everyone, and not able to act any fasten than Rahvin was when Rand Gated to him.

[Beckon]

I really couldn't care less if she Traveled in there or if she dug a hole up from the cellar. I likewise don't care if she was there for the purpose of killing Asmo or if it was just a happy accident. I'm just disputing the idea that Travelling in with the intent to kill Asmo is necessary for her to be able to react in time to release a weave that common sense says she would have had ready. Whatever her reasons for being there, she's not going to walk around completely unprepared to deal with Asmo if she bumps into him. If she's there with the intent to kill him that just makes her that much more likely to be ready in case he finds her before she has a chance to position herself.

 

You keep comparing her to Rhavin but there's a critical difference. In Graendal's case she's walking down a hallway (regardless of how she got there) in a place where she's not welcome. She's going to have her eyes on any doors or windows so she doesn't get taken by surprise. She may not have exactly expected him but neither is she going to be so shocked that she can't react fast enough to release an already prepared weave.

 

Rhavin was comfortable in his throne room where he had every right to be (as far as he was concerned), confident that he had Rand dealt with when Rand appears out of thin air. He's just sitting there waiting for events to play themselves out, compltely unprepared for someone to barge in on him guns blazing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You assume the killer could have been watching Asmodean before he entered the room.

 

Have you ever heard of a window? You know, something that allows you to look from a hallway or another room into a room, without actually being in that room? You know, the kind that Rand looked through so that he could see Asmodean, Aviendha, and Mat, even though he was not in the room?

 

She saw him THROUGH A WINDOW. Thats what the little blue things on my diagram are.

 

Rand knew Rahvin was in the Palace, yet he was still surprised to come face to face with him, to say "Rahvin."

 

Rand wasn't surprised, he was angry. Rand was the one chasing Rahvin around. He went after Rahvin deliberately.

 

Graendal was not surprised, because to kill Asmo that way, she could not afford the time, she had no time to be surprised that Asmo suddenly walked in on her.

 

You are absolutely right. Graendal was not surprised at all. She saw Asmodean walking toward that door through a nearby window, and fully expected and was ready for him to walk through.

 

Exactly. Here Asmodean= Rand, Rahvin = Graendal.

 

How can Asmodean (who was surprised) = Rand, (who was NOT surprised)? How can Rahvin (who was surprised) = Graendal, (who was NOT surprised)? You've got it completely backwards.

 

Remember the small ball of fire Cyndane shot at the Cleansing? She had to especially concentrate in making it.

 

Yes indeed. Lets all read it, shall we? From, chapter 35 of Winter's Heart:

 

"No matter how fierce the other woman's eyes [Alivia], a knife would do for her, if she really thought to be a bar. And just in case she proved to be what they called a wilder, Cyndane prepared a small present for her, a reversed web she would not even see until it was too late.

 

Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman, but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane's hand, small enough to escape detection she hoped ..."

 

I'm not seeing any longer periods of time there, or even any signifigantly greater effort. Its exactly the same as other descriptions of preparing weaves. Perhaps you can find a better example?

 

Again, because she had no time. It takes a little more skill and effort and time.

 

You keep saying that, but saying it doesn't make it so.

 

The door opened into wherever Asmo was coming from; he pulled open the door, he did not push it open.

 

That is an absolutely correct detail, which I got wrong. It also has no bearing on the number of steps Asmodean had to take. It is entirely possible to pull open a door, take one step, and be in another room or hallway. Its called, standing beside the door and opening it with your arm. You don't have to back up behind and pull it open like you would pull a wagon or something.

 

Just to make sure, I got up moments ago, and opened the door from my bedroom, in the hallway. It opens into my bedroom, so I had to pull it open, just as Asmodean had to pull open the door leaving the courtyard. I stood beside the doorframe, pulled it open, took one step, and ta-daaaaaa, I was in the hallway.

 

Honestly man, this is not that complicated.

 

Exactly, only by Travelling will the killer end up behind that door.

 

You assume that the killer started in the courtyard. But that assumption has no basis. RJ went out of his way to demonstrate that people could see into the courtyard from outside of it, by having Rand do exactly that.

 

Aviendha has not been that long with the Wise Ones, but I repeat, you configuration does not work, in your diagram Asmo died in the courtyard.

 

No, he doesn't. He dies in the "Hallway around Courtyard". It might be a little difficult to read though, since I did that diagram in a hurry, and didn't color the courtyard and hallway different colors. So, I've prepared some clearer ones.

 

 

This is where everyone started. The light brown represents Hallways, the Green is the Courtyard. Each individual is recognizeable by his or her number. The pinkish squares are windows, by means of which one can see from the Hallway, into the Courtyard. Notice the arrow going from the 4 to the 1, indicating a line of sight.

 

In this scenario, Graendal sees Asmodean LONG before he arrives at the door, while he still sitting on the bench. She subsequently sees him rise, and start walking to -gasp- a door that leads to her Hallway!

 

Being closer than he is to said doorway, and seeing that Avi and Mat's view and hearing are obstructed by the fountain and their own conversation, she walks to the door, preparing an inverted weave. Asmodean opens the door, takes one step, and as he steps, she drops her invisibility and/or disguise. Knowing (being the mental scientist that she is) that he would waste time gasping in fear and recognition, she then releases her reversed weave as he gasps "You? No!"

 

It should be noted here that the word "No!" was not necessarily said very loudly. In english, the exclamation point can indicate surprise or astonishment as well as or instead of volume. There is no reason to assume that Mat and Avi had to be any more than 25-50 feet away to not hear it.

 

Which gives us these final positions. Note Asmodean, clearly, if barely, inside the Hallway.

 

 

I hope thats a little clearer.

[Cybertrolloc]

Pages 5,19,34,45-86 inclusive,100,103,etc... of this thread deal with Graendal's favourite's assertion about "the only way the killer gets into the room is traveling." You'll get nowhere, just be glad he isn't adamantly clinging to the belief that Asunawa started riding towards Caemlyn 2 months prior to kill Asmo on that particular day ;)

 

RAW, Asmo's does his walking bit inside the palace. You don't make that clear enough in the latest set of diagrams.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW, Asmo's does his walking bit inside the palace. You don't make that clear enough in the latest set of diagrams.

 

I'm sorry, where does it say that? I re-read that most re-read of passages once again to check, and it says absolutely zero about exiting the courtyard before he begins his walking ruminations. The first and only door mentioned is the "small door" he went through, so that was when he exited the courtyard. He died within one step (about a half a step, actually) of that door. That's exactly what my diagram shows.

[Beckon]

Nowhere does it say that Asmo left the courtyard before opening that door. People are assuming it because of the balefire damage to the walls I think. If you go back to where Rand is chasing Rhavin through the palace though...

 

He's running down a hallway when a bunch of trollocs appear out of a crossing corridor. He kills them, moves ahead, then a bar of balefire sweeps across like a sword, cutting a long slash in the walls to either side. He shoots back where the other bar came from. He busts through the doors ahead of him into a sitting room where he notices balefire damage to one of the arches leading to a courtyard with a fountain. He senses the residue of Rhavin's gateway into T'a'r and follows. The rest of the action takes place in T'a'r.

 

Later when Asmodean is hanging with Mat and Aviendha, he drifts away because they aren't listening to him. He's fantasizing about Lanfear dieing a painful death. He notes balefire damage to the wall in front of him. We know this is the same balefire from before because a) Rand thinks "so much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire" which shows that's the first time either uses it and b) all the other fighting between Rand and Rhavin is in T'a'r right up to Rhavin's death.

 

So Graendal starts by watching from either the sitting room or the hallway via the balefire damage. She's got reversed weaves ready and is waiting/hoping for Asmo to walk away alone, perhaps even Compulsing him to do so. She tracks Asmo's progress toward the door through the balefire damage, moving to intercept(possibly releasing an invisibility weave as she walks) him as soon as he steps through the door. Zap!

 

 

Just in case the text is hard to read:

Yellow triangle - balefire damage caused by Rand

Purple triangle - balefire damage caused by Rhavin

1 - Mat and Aviendha, facing away from Asmodean's death position

2 - Asmodean, blue arrow is his path

3 - Graendal's starting position, red arrow is her path

4 - position of the murder with Asmo barely inside the hallway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, well I include the arched walkway as part of the "courtyard". But thats just semantics. I'm just pointing out that Amsodean was not wandering through the halls aimlessly for a while, rather, he went through one door and died. As I've said before, there are multiple specific configurations that work ... unless RJ decides to draw up a blueprint of the palace at Caemlyn we're not going to get it exact.

 

The points that seem to be pretty conclusive are:

 

1)Graendal did it.

 

2)She used reversed weaves, probably a tiny lance of balefire.

 

3)She saw Asmodean from outside the courtyard, and did not need to Travel to get in position to make her kill.

[Beckon]

OK' date=' well I include the arched walkway as part of the "courtyard". But thats just semantics. I'm just pointing out that Amsodean was not wandering through the halls aimlessly for a while, rather, he went through one door and died. As I've said before, there are multiple specific configurations that work ... unless RJ decides to draw up a blueprint of the palace at Caemlyn we're not going to get it exact.

 

The points that seem to be pretty conclusive are:

 

1)Graendal did it.

 

2)She used reversed weaves, probably a tiny lance of balefire.

 

3)She saw Asmodean from outside the courtyard, and did not need to Travel to get in position to make her kill.[/quote']

 

That's exactly my point. By illustrating where Rand's balefire match took place relative to Mat & Avi's courtyard, I meant to show that it's not even possible for Asmo to be any further into the interior of the palace, since it can be proven that balefire wasn't used anywhere else in the "real" world.

 

The whole Travelling theory makes me nuts. It makes a simple scenario needlessly complicated, all because some people (*coughGraendal's favouritecough*) insist on assuming things that have no basis in any "fact". Though I guess he's not alone in thinking Asmo wanders for some time before he dies.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK. Then we're wasting alot of time agreeing on what happened .... lol

[Cybertrolloc]

Alright, without going back and reading, I don't remember anything that must put Asmodean inside the palace. Good point if it checks out.

 

2)She used reversed weaves' date=' probably a tiny lance of balefire.[/quote']

Where and how he died are both important to why the DO can't raise Asmodean. Without that RJ "hint," it's easy to close this case :(

[RobertAlexWillis]

Frankly ... I've never read that quote anywhere but in threads ... do you have a source on it?

 

There isn't any method of death that we are aware of where physical location in the world affects the Dark One's transmigratory ability. "How" could obviously be satisfied by balefire ... =in any case, until a better alternative method is produced, I'm going with balefire as the most likely immediate cause.

[phlpr23]

Frankly ... I've never read that quote anywhere but in threads ... do you have a source on it?

 

There isn't any method of death that we are aware of where physical location in the world affects the Dark One's transmigratory ability. "How" could obviously be satisfied by balefire ... =in any case, until a better alternative method is produced, I'm going with balefire as the most likely immediate cause.

 

-I have to agree with RAW again; however, the Dark One not being able to raise Asmodean could deal more with Asmodean obtaining some type of "salvation". And yes, I remember Moiraine saying "He's still the same man", but Asmodean did dream of Rand defeating the DO so its kind of up in the air, and I suppose it doesn't matter much anymore.

[Cybertrolloc]

Frankly ... I've never read that quote anywhere but in threads ... do you have a source on it?

 

There isn't any method of death that we are aware of where physical location in the world affects the Dark One's transmigratory ability. "How" could obviously be satisfied by balefire ... =in any case' date=' until a better alternative method is produced, I'm going with balefire as the most likely immediate cause.[/quote']

Mentioned here (main theory and Tamyrlin in first response)

(Tam's Question to RJ): "Tam: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that? RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors."

Beyond that, dig through WoTMania's obnoxiously annoying to navigate message board for the DragonCon '05 threads.

 

Balefire with sufficient strength makes where irrelevant. It's an annoying complication...made a lot more difficult with what's presented in the first 5 books. Offhand it makes something involving Slayer more likely, with all the speculation that will entail...then figuring out who else set Slayer on him (there is no on screen interaction or mention of same I know of) and why.