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Guest Egwene

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

spigots or caudrens  

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YAY!!!! Lanfear > Moiraine!

Last time I checked, they were about equal. Glad to see Lanfear is putting Moiraine in her place! :D

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Guest Egwene

Nevermind... there is still the odd enlightened person out there that will vote for Moiraine *waits*

 

:wink:

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This is something I never gave much thought to, but just reading over the thread a few things came to mind.

 

Asmo was totally surprised by whoever it was. As someone said, if it were one of the other Forsaken he would have tried to talk his way out of it, or at least not been totally surprised.

 

I have to admit, initially when I read the passage my gut reaction was that it was Lanfear. There are a lot of reasons why it "couldn't" be her, but one thing occurred to me as a result of reading the thread about "why wasn't lanfear spared." Someone in that thread mentioned wishes, or something to that effect. Could Lanfear have gone through the doorway, met with some Finns, asked for a chance to kill Asmo, neglected to ask for a way out of Finnland, had her wish granted, and then been killed by the Finns?

 

That would be a potential explanation for why Asmo was so surprised. If you saw someone you thought was dead, and couldn't possibly be there, your reaction might be the same as his was, espically if you realized in that instant that you were about to die.

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Slayer did it

Who ordered the hit? Slayer is an assassin, and unless you mean to suggest he spends his free time killing Chosen on a whim, I think saying who you think gave the order would be a good idea - and RJ has already said it's not Shai'tan.

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Who ordered the hit? Slayer is an assassin' date=' and unless you mean to suggest he spends his free time killing Chosen on a whim, I think saying who you think gave the order would be a good idea - and RJ has already said it's not Shai'tan.[/quote']

 

I didn't know RJ siad that. (125 pages is a lot of reading to get through) But I must say that slayer is the one I intuitively thought did it.

I also read a post in this topic wich mentions that slayer remembered the pleasure he had killing the two captured aes sedai from the black ayah in Tear. Should he have killed Asmodean, he would have mentionned that too.

So, no, I don't think slayer did it anymore.

 

I don't agree with the Moiraine theory either. it lacks motif. Moiraine considered Asmo a necesairy evil. Why would she have changed her mind about that? Also, if she had changed her mind, why didn't she kill him before the Lanfear-encounter then? She could've even avoided a conflict with Rand by doing it in a sneaky cairhien way!

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Could Lanfear have gone through the doorway, met with some Finns, asked for a chance to kill Asmo, neglected to ask for a way out of Finnland, had her wish granted, and then been killed by the Finns?

 

Just so you don't attempt to support my argument in a way that would bring about its doom, let's just say she went in, and somehow went out, then died. Perhaps(and it seems likely) that this was a result of a bargain, if maybe not by the usual rules. Which would suggest death was the price to pay for leaving, like you just said. It could also be that she got out, and was killed by normal means. Anything might have happened, really. :D

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Guest Egwene

:( I am sure amongst the post that got whiped there must have been at least twenty votes for Moiraine!!

 

If yours got whiped... you should be able to re-enter :wink:

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Grendal wqa plotting with Lanfear, Ravin etc, so she has a motive to kill Asmo to keep rand from getting too strong and knows who he is an why hw is there. Also Grendal was snooping around Sammel's digs after he was killed looking for angreal. Grendal fits for those 2 reasons.

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Graendal in Illian isn't very indicative of anything. Sammael had dangled the knowledge in front of her that he had found things she might want; Rahvin made no mention of any such stash. Plus, there's no indication of when she made her trip into Illian. An angreal raid the very same day as the attack on Caemlyn or Illian sounds too risky.

 

Re: Slayer's reminiscing. I made the comment somewhere in the Structured discussion that this only applies if Slayer knew the guy he was killing was Asmodean and not simply ol' Jasin Natael.

 

And I speak thus: lack of evidence against Graendal as the murderer does not equate evidence in favor.

 

I don't really have an opinion on the killer. I just like attacking everyone's logic.

 

Though of late I have found myself wondering precisely what orders the rest of Moghedien's Black Ajah were given...

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In my honest opinion. I don't think it was anyone on the vote list. (Save the "anyone" choice) Because from what I heard only like 5-8 people got Asmo's killer right. So that would cross out Graendal, Moiraine, Aviendha, and Lanfear.

 

My reasoning for Lanfear is:

 

Well, at that point and time she would of wanted to kill Rand.

 

Moiraine said that Rand needed Asmo, so that crosses out Moiraine (and she might of wanted another loose forsaken dead)

 

Aviendha didn't even know who he actually was

 

Graendal I always agreed with that theory and still do to a certain point.

 

Slayer wasn't introduced(well he was introduced as Luc, but we didn't know he was an assasin for the shadow)

 

Shadar Haran wasn't introduced, and Asmo wouldn't of said "You?, No!" to a random fade sitting around.

 

 

But I'm still on the Graendal side.

 

 

What if it was moggy or even Rahvin? or heck Sammeal.

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What if it was moggy or even Rahvin?

 

Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve, and Rahvin was D-E-D dead.

 

or heck Sammeal.

 

Sammael probably has the second best case to Graendal, but he seems genuinely unsure about it in subsequent books, whereas Graendal seems very sure Asmodean is dead.

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^ No, the next best case after Graendal would be Lanfear's. What case does Semirhage have that can surpass Lanfear's?

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No, Lanfear was not free to roam about like Graendal, Semirhage and Mesaana. Semirhage has a clear advantage over Mesaana, however, because Mesaana name hadn't even been mentioned in the books yet, whilst Semirhage was mentioned many times in FoH, also how Asmodean wouldn't want to end up in Semirhage's hands. Her case is, however, very weak against Graendal's. Anyway, all three have better cases than Moghedien and Lanfear, because the two were trapped, they could not visit Caemlyn at the time.

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1) Have you been paying attention? There is no evidence that Lanfear was trapped the whole time. I'm suggesting she got out, killed Asmo, and died a conventional death.

 

2) Nobody would like to end up in Semirhage's hands. After all, she's only the best human torturer alive! :D But it's Lanfear that Asmodean's been having nightmares about...

 

3) Mesaana does not have a better case than Lanfear. Or even Moiraine, for that matter, though that might be a stretch.

 

4) There is little evidence for Semirhage at all..., Sammael has a better case than her, though Lanfear has a better one than him.

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Lanfear has NO case IMO because there's no "intuitively obvious" reason to assume she magically got out of 'finnland a few scant pages after she was dragged in with the doorway destroyed behind her. I don't believe we know what the Tower of Ghenji is at that point so as far as we know the only connection between our world and theirs has been severed.

 

If she got out unharmed and was able to kill Asmo and get out of the palace unnoticed then you have to explain how she turns up in another body the next time we see her.

 

If she dies as a result of her altercation with Moiraine it makes sense. We know it's entirely possible that such an experience could kill someone, especially one already fatigued from the huge quantities of the Power they were flinging about right before falling through. It makes no sense whatsoever that she escaped from the 'finns in spite of incredible odds and then well..hmmm the next time we see her she's in a different body so I guess that means she had to have died some random completely unexplained death.

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Intuitively obvious:

 

Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael, and Graendal plot together.

 

Rahvin's dead, Lanfear's MIA, and Sammael's waiting in Illian.

 

What's the obvious question to ask? "Where's Graendal?"

 

Then Asmodean dies. Then you go "Oh, there's Graendal."

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Good summary BrainFireBob! Add to that the fact that the entire fifth book is based around that particular cabal (they first meet in the Prologue, and every major thread in the book ties into that one plot, even Nynaeve and Elayne's part gets pulled in by the end, and you don't even see Perrin in this one). No other book in the series is as focused on one set of Forsaken as this one is, and Graendal is the only one really unaccounted for at the end of the book.

 

Without subsequent books, Sammael was impossible because we didn't know about the True Power.

 

I don't see why thats an obstacle. Rand learned about inverting weaves from Asmodean, and if Sammael did do it, I'm sure everything he did would have been inverted. The main problem with Sammael is that he was in Illian.

 

There is no evidence that Lanfear was trapped the whole time.

 

There is no evidence that she got free before she died, either, and if you are held by someone until you die in their custody (which we know she did), its reasonable to assume that you didn't get a free pass to go about galavanting.

 

The primary case for Lanfear is based on post TFoH knowledge about transmigration. Based only on events in TFoH, you have to assume she was, at a minimum, burnt out by the melting ter'angreal, because of Lan's reaction to the bond with Moiraine being broken.

 

I have quite seriously never understood why people think that either Moiraine, or Lanfear, was simply jaunting about freely mere hours after being cast into another world in a violent fashion. Thats just so incredibly far fetched.

 

Graendal did it.

 

Sammael has a reasonable case.

 

It could be argued without complete insanity that Semirhage or Mesaana did it ... and a very, very slim argument could be made for Slayer.

 

Thats it.

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Quote:

Without subsequent books, Sammael was impossible because we didn't know about the True Power.

 

 

I don't see why thats an obstacle. Rand learned about inverting weaves from Asmodean, and if Sammael did do it, I'm sure everything he did would have been inverted. The main problem with Sammael is that he was in Illian.

 

We knew of inverting, but not of reversing. Inverting is done only after the weave is set, so no one sees a mask for example, reversing while you weave, so no one sees or feels you are doing anything. Sammael had a problem of leaving Illian, true, but the bigger problem was getting behind that door without Asmodean noticing. Even taking later knowledge of reversing, he would not have had time to reverse the gateway in time.

 

But essentially otherwise I agree. It is interesting, that there are at least Semirhage and Sammael factions within Graendal supporters, the second best case differentiates between the different Graendal arguments.

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We knew of inverting, but not of reversing. Inverting is done only after the weave is set, so no one sees a mask for example, reversing while you weave, so no one sees or feels you are doing anything. Sammael had a problem of leaving Illian, true, but the bigger problem was getting behind that door without Asmodean noticing. Even taking later knowledge of reversing, he would not have had time to reverse the gateway in time.

 

Given that as an assumption, then whatever Graendal did should have been felt by Aviendha. After all, we didn't know about "reversing" for women either. Or at least, it hadn't been spoken of. (I was certainly not alone in figuring that inverting while weaving was as possible as inverting after weaving.)

 

Besides, why would Sammael have to gate to the door? I've never understood that necessity. Why couldn't he just have been in Caemlyn, poking around (disguised) to see what happened to his "buddies", and happened to see Asmodean? Walk over to door. Kill Asmodean. I doubt that Graendal used a gateway to get to the door.

 

The problems with Sammael are:

 

1) He wasn't going to leave his fortified position when he was anticipating an attack, and

 

2) Unlike Graendal, he probably would not have dropped his disguise for shock factor, meaning Asmodean wouldn't have recognized him, he'd have just died.

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Yes, what Graendal did might have been felt by Aviendha. She would have seen Aviendha in the garden, but the killing did not take so long that she would have to consider her, or care if she felt. We don't know whether Aviendha felt anything, and it is doubtful if she would have felt anything. She had already reached the point where she could recognise the ability to channel, but feeling people channel comes later, it seems, than even seeing the flows of other channellers. Eg in The Short Spear, it was Rand who noticed the Seanchan, not Aviendha, even though it was likely the damane had channelled at some point. So because we don't know whether Aviendha should have felt it, and we don't know whether she did feet it, her existence is neutral. The same does not go for Sammael, because Asmodean would have felt, and he did not.

 

Inverting and reversing offer different possibilities. Moghedien could stay unnoticed in Salidar behind an inverted mask, but with reversing she could also channel in plain view of others.

 

The necessity to gate there comes from having to know of Asmodean coming before he does. Otherwise, either he will not know of Asmo coming and be surprised, or not be there, because the walls will hide Asmodean from his view, it could not be expected Asmodean would take a servants' door exactly then and there.

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