one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

She didn't have to motivated to do it. ALl it would take is an order from the DO.

 

No such order was ever given.

 

Q: Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?

A: No, he didn’t order Asmodean’s death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn’t complete knowledge. (w 04)

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=101647

 

Asmodean expected the Dark One would do something particularly nasty, he thought Semirhage would be preferrable. If any of the other Forsaken considered that as a possibility, they would have thought really hard about killing him out of hand. They wouldn't want to risk their own neck by denying the Dark One his pleasure. Their motive would need to be very strong to balance that out.

[cannon]

@Paradoxic: You make good points, and I have nothing to explain your first three questions other than I believe it somehow happened. My idea is that she accidently made a wish to kill Asmodean in frustration. Since she was in the Finn's presence, it was granted, unexpectedly, and she found herself in that closet the moment Asmo entered. He dies, and she returns.

 

I know that sort of contradicts your point 3, but I can only speculate that there is some sort of loophole by which they were able to affect her wishes without her really "leaving". I know it's weak, but it's the best I can come up with.

 

4) It isn't intuitive to anyone that believes her dead, which really is the only logical conclusion one could come to at that point. All evidence at the time indicated Moiraine died given how Lan reacted... this would lead us to believe that Lanfear also died.

 

I never thought Lanfear had died. She was way too badass to be killed like that. When Lan reacted to Moiraine's death, I assumed that she had been killed by Lanfear, and that Lanfear was now in Finnland.

 

I don't think that explanation requires any sort of stretching of logic.

[Wise One]

@Paradoxic: You make good points' date=' and I have nothing to explain your first three questions other than I believe it somehow happened. My idea is that she accidently made a wish to kill Asmodean in frustration. Since she was in the Finn's presence, it was granted, unexpectedly, and she found herself in that closet the moment Asmo entered. He dies, and she returns.

 

I know that sort of contradicts your point 3, but I can only speculate that there is some sort of loophole by which they were able to affect her wishes without her really "leaving". I know it's weak, but it's the best I can come up with.

 

4) It isn't intuitive to anyone that believes her dead, which really is the only logical conclusion one could come to at that point. All evidence at the time indicated Moiraine died given how Lan reacted... this would lead us to believe that Lanfear also died.

 

I never thought Lanfear had died. She was way too badass to be killed like that. When Lan reacted to Moiraine's death, I assumed that she had been killed by Lanfear, and that Lanfear was now in Finnland.

 

I don't think that explanation requires any sort of stretching of logic.

 

I like the accidental wish theory, and how did she get back in? Maybe she didnt, maybe she died as a result of her wish and was then indesposed because of that. Weak theory, I know, but lets be honest, no one can come up with a solid, unshakeable argument for any suspect in this case

[Guest Majsju]

Accidental wish, eh? Lets see, when she enters finnland it was only moments ago she was dead set on killing Rand, and after that finsihing the job with Avi. She is furious at those two. Moiraine is probably not the most popular person in Lanfears world either.

 

When Lanfear fights Rand at the docks, Asmodean is there, and she doesn't pay him any attention at all. She is completely focused on rand, Avi and Egwene, since she doesn't know which of them is Avi. But Asmo? She doesn't even look at him.

[Paradoxic]

Well, I guess new things do happen in this debate, heh. Cannon, I think you're the first person I have seen directly admit to not knowing the answers to questions like that. Fair enough, can't argue with honesty, heh.

[haman]

i have not read all the arguments here, so someone else may have made the argument. in one of the earlyer books there are an assassin that kills for the dark one, he can go in and out of the dream world. i think he was slayer (not sure about it).

 

the assassin answers only to the choosen, and i would think that Asmodean knew him, and knew why he would be there. and knowing that poor Asmodean at the time was weak in the power, the assassin could easly kill him.

 

i don't think that lanfear did it since she was with the finns, and would not care about him at the time. if she got her wishes i think she would ask for something else than to kill ashmodean. beeing a forsaken i would think she would calm down enough, not to use her wishes in anger.

[racha_giurgiu]

The assassin is Slayer and we did not know enough about him to deduce it was him with any hint of "intuitively obvious"ness from the pages in the book. We don't learn much about this character until later.

[haman]

The assassin is Slayer and we did not know enough about him to deduce it was him with any hint of "intuitively obvious"ness from the pages in the book. We don't learn much about this character until later.

 

so what u say are that u don't know that it wasn't him, because you don't know enough about him? i agree with that, but i would think he could be a suspect. beeing an assassin and all :)

[racha_giurgiu]

RJ has been quoted as saying that Asmo's killer would be "intuitively obvious" by the end of the book. perhaps you should go back and read the reset of the post since you apparently have no idea why "not knowing about him" would make it a fairly safe assumption that he was not the one to kill Asmodean.

[Paradoxic]

Another point that is fairly important is that Slayer (the assassin) is in a scene where he is thinking about how many people he had killed. He says that the cream of the crop of all those he had killed were two Aes'Sedai (the traitors that Moiraine and friends had captured... the ones found dead in their cells with their tongues nailed to the doors). Now, we can all agree that killing a Forsaken would be much cooler than killing two helpless (shielded) AS that were chained up in a cell. And, yes, this point-of-view scene occurs a good while after Asmodean's death.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Just a quick bump to move this back up the ladder.

 

A mere 116 pages. I'm disappointed. You guys have been slacking while I was gone. Back to the grindstone. Tote that premise! Lift that conspiracy theory!

 

But, remember Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[Guest Egwene]

:D yay, Bob!! Great to see you again!

 

I understand your comment of 'the simplest likely to be the correct one'... but... the definition of 'simple' varies from person to person.

 

In my case, the case for both Moiraine as well as Lanfear, is simple, makes sense and seems intuitively obvious... for some reason at least 238 people on these boards disagree with that :?

 

.

[Bob T Dwarf]

:D Very good to see you too.

 

As you may imagine, I haven't changed my idea about WHODUNIT.

 

By simple, I mean: Who was provably there? Of those people, who would Asmodean be surprised to find when he opened that door?

 

The only people provably there were: Mat. Aviendha. Rand. The two Aiel Maidens. Davram Bashere.

 

In the immortal words of Lt. Col. Cameron Mitchell, "One of these things is not like the others."

[Guest Egwene]

Hmmm, so you really think that those are the only suspects that you feel are viable?

.

[Bob T Dwarf]

They are certainly the only suspects who can be proven to be at the place of the crime at the time of the crime. That makes them where we have to start.

 

Before we can start coming up with who might have done it that we cannot prove was there at the time, we first have to eliminate all of those who were there when Asmo was murdered.

 

Five of the six people present were known by Asmo to be present in the palace. Only one of the six would have been a surprise. That one has to be the main suspect.

[Guest Egwene]

So we are talking Bashere. In my estimation the time between Rand watching everybody down by the fountain and Bashere arriving in his presence is too short for him to have been the killer.

.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Asmo dies after the scene where Bashere shows up.

 

When we leave Rand and Bashere they've just concluded a bit of an alliance and shared some wine.

 

Then there is a break in the text. Stylistically, that indicates both a displacement in space and a displacement in time. Thus, we have no idea how much time passes during the interim.

 

We know that Asmo set off to find some wine. He chose a door at random, HOPING it led, eventually, to a wine closet. We have no idea where it actually led, other than to whomever it was who killed him.

 

That person could well have been Bashere on his way back out of the palace.

 

In fact, we don't really know if it is Bashere. All we know is that he says he's Bashere. Whoever he is, he's mighty careful to avoid any possibility of running into Bashere's dear niece Queen Tenobia.

 

Supposedly that's because he's sure that what he has undertaken to do would be unsanctioned by Tenobia. Ostensibly he's afraid that if they meet he will be arrested and tried for treason.

 

We don't really know whether any of that is true. All we know is that Tenobia has expressed an interest in meeting up with Uncle Davram. So much so that she has persuaded all of the Borderland rulers to uncover the whole northern front with the Blight in order to accompany her to have a word with dear Uncle Davram. The longer "Bashere" avoids meeting Tenobia, the longer that front remains exposed.

 

Whose interests are best served by a wide open door to the lands below the Blight?

[Guest Majsju]

The main reason the Borderlanders are down south is to meet Rand. Tenobia might have a personal grudge regarding Bashere, but the rest of the doesn't give a flying fig about Bashere.

 

As for Bashere not being Bashere, I think his wife and daughter might have noticed something. And Min would most likely not have had any viewings hinting at Bashere being important for Rand if he had been a baddie in disguise.

 

There is no Bashandred going on.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Never said he was.

 

Bashere doesn't need to be Demandred. He could be a dupe. He could be an accomplice. He could even be a double agent trying to work against the DO from the inside. Or, he could be exactly who and what he claims to be.

 

All we really know about Bashere is his reputation and what Min saw in her viewing of him.

 

“And there’s something…dark…in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies…I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing one of them would be a blow. Lose all three, and it might take you a year to recover.â€

 

-Crossroads of Twilight, A Strengthening Storm

 

Bashere may well be the ally he claims to be. He may not. Neither possibility precludes him from having killed Asmo.

 

The effect of his known actions certainly plays into the DO's hands. The dark aura isn't a good sign either.

[goldeneys]

*mouth drops*

 

Bashere??? DEMANDRED?!?!??!

 

well, it could be...but I have my doubts...as Majsju said...Zarene and his wife would notice.

[Zylazlo-]

There's really too many pages to read so I dunno if anyone already said it, but it was totally Padan Fain. Let's all think about it for a moment. We all know he's probably capable of killing a weakened forsaken. I mean he probably has a ton of hidden abilities we have yet to see. He can maybe even unravel weaves. As to the why... the DO hates Asmo, Padan Fain is the biggest brown noser in the history of time, he wants to gain favor, he kills Asmo. But I don't think he did it alone, because of the whole he has in another place at the time. He probably had another forsaken's help for Traveling. And that's my opinion. And if it wasn't him I don't think it was a forsaken or any channeler, and if it was a channeler they didn't channel to kill him. No one felt anyone using the OP.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Question: Would you please name one character who did not kill Asmodean? Will you please name one of the following: Lanfear, Graendal, Moridin, Shaidar Haran, Padan Fain, Semirhage, Demandred, Mazrim Taim, Slayer. I thank you for your mercy and if you can please explain why they didn’t do it that would be a nice touch.

 

Jordan: Padan Fain didn’t because he wasn’t in the right place at the right time. He would have if he had been in the right place at the right time, but he wasn’t.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=101

[Zylazlo-]

There goes years of planning...

[Paradoxic]

Don't worry Zylazlo, it happens to everyone...

 

Unless you support Graendal...

 

Because then you'd be right...

 

heh heh heh

[Skowsa]

Asmodean did it. I can't believe you are still discussing this when it is obviously suicide. He opened the door, saw his reflection in a full length mirror and died on the spot. We can all agree that he was able to be in the right place at the right time and so must be taken as a serious option.

 

If it wasn't him, it was the one-armed man (from the Fugitive, not Rand) or the butler.