one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

I hope that anyone new to this board will add their vote to this thread 8)

.

[Kadere]

nobody's posting on this thing. Have we really gotten so sick of the argument?

[TheDiceAgain...]

Ummm....yes? I mean, a good argument is fun and all, but after 115 pages and nearly 1700 posts, even "Here's what I think..." followed by "How can you say that with a straight face?!?" tends to get old after a while.

 

Eventually somebody new will come in, read the last 2 or 3 pages worth, post a theory and then get jumped all over by the folks just waiting in the wings to slap them down with some sort of inescapably logical, iron-clad theory and then it will start a whole new cycle...

 

There is no beginning nor ending to the "Who killed Asmodean?" thread, but it will be a beginning....

[Guest cwestervelt]

Agreed. You can only argue the same points for so long. I actually thought it had fallen down the list of threads to the point were someone was bound to start a new one. Then it got shamelessly bumped by the original poster.

 

:lol: I realized what you were up to Egwene. You need a little more subtlety next time. :lol:

[Guest Egwene]

lol...as I hadn't intended being subtle about it, CW, that's alright *g*

 

My continued interest in this topic is two-fold. I would really love to get a large poll. The fact that most of the people that look at this board are pretty hard core readers, should mean that the result is as 'informed' as it can be. Though considering that we have a membership of nearly 5000...

 

Secondly... I am looking after the Newbies to a certain degree. And they have not discussed this for decades. I didn't even know that it was something people discussed when I joined beginning of the year. It was a lot of fun to suddenly get so many new (to me) points of view about not just this but lots of other WoT moments.

 

I am really grateful to you, Jonn, Bob (where is he?), Graendal's Fav, Jedi, Maj and all the other regulars here, that you are still willing to engage with new people like RAW in this long running debate. And despite what some people say... I still find small nuggets of not so much information, but interesting ideas, that I haven't heard before.

 

And of course, many times the debate has turned into a disection of some related aspects, like the Finns for example.

 

It's still fun :D

.

[Jonn]

I don't think there was any subtlety intended there cwest.

 

:roll: woops, I see Egwene has already remarked as much.

 

I think people get a little jaded when they cannot present damning evidence on either side.

 

Myself, I'm fine with that. I'm of the belief that the subject was never meant to be explicitly explained. I believe that it was meant to be a mysetery for one reason or another and I'm fine with continually having to explain my reasoning for what I believe to be an answer.

 

This thread in fact has discussed so many different topics and has all related to Asmodean's death rather well. It kind of debunks the idea that his death was anything less than a watershed moment in the series as the questions surrounding it touch on so many other mysteries that readers continue to explore.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I know she wasn't attempting to be subtle about it. I just thought an attempt at a little subtlety would have been nice. :D

 

Anyway, cease fires generally don't last forever. Everyone just exhasted their individual arsenal of arguments for and against the various candidates. I'm sure once we've all had a chance to perform damage assessments and reload this thread will heat up again.

 

Addition: I hope I didn't sound like I was irked or anything by the bump. I wasn't serious and was just trying to give Egwene a bit of a hard time over it. Text is such a difficult medium when attempting to convey attitude and emotion.

[Paradoxic]

To add a bit of perspective here...

 

This thread is 114 pages. The previous versions of this board had, I want to say, 4 different 70+ page Asmodean threads (the thread would break and they'd open a new one and lock the previous). So I wouldn't be surprised if someone said there are over 5000 posts on the topic just at Dragonmount. I was involved in 2 of the threads on the last board and about half of this one.

 

Also, you could go into any one of the threads, any page of the thread, and not see much different. There are occasional new insights or modifications of the various theories... but they are slight and very very few of them are strong enough to stick. The major changes are simply in flavors of support. I say that Graendal did it, but I favor a coincidental and purely unfortunately accidental run-in (Graendal was in town for one of several reasons when Asmodean randomly picked the wrong door and walked in on her... remember that Rand and Mat were so very close to him as to affect his random choice of doors with their fate bending auras) verses the assassination angle other Graendal supporters employ.

 

It is a very interesting topic but, unfortunately, you cannot go on for all that long when there simple is NO new information. The last piece we got for this story was when Lanfear made an appearance in the new body. That was a fair bit ago and was not really that great a bit of information (simply validated the Lanfear/Moiraine-aren't-dead camp, which had always existed).

[Guest Egwene]

CW... after all these months of bumping into each other on this thread, it didn't occur to me for even a second that you were doing anything other than taking a light hearted friendly mickey (and digging your ellbow into my ribs) :D

 

Paradoxic... I would disagree about there not being any differences between pages. We have had long stretches where we have looked at a certain aspect in depth and not much else. For example the recent discussion about the Finns. I don't remember us taking them apart quite a s much before (refering to this thread... have never read any others apart from the predecessor on the temp board). In doing so, I found arguments in favour of Moiraine that I had not been aware of before.

 

And there is another reason for carrying on the conversation... and that is the excellent company one finds around here :D

.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, there have been some good discussions here. I have discussed Asmo for a year, and it was him that brought me out of lurking and into the discussions. I remember reading some of those threads of yours, Jonn and Paradoxic :). Then a little later I got my enlightenment, so there was nothing for it but to debate big time.

 

I too expect the debate will spring into action sooner or later. The world is not through with Asmodean yet. Besides, I'm still absolutely certain the murder was as I presented. I will eat that hat if it could somehow impossibly be that Graendal didn't travel into that room to ambush Asmo. Even if all other even remotely possible suspects happened to be in the palace at the time, that was still what happened. Perhaps those who doubt will yet one day come to know and understand the truth of matters.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Graendal's favourite: Perhaps those who doubt will yet one day come to know and understand the truth of matters.

 

I'm sure you'll see the light eventually. :P

 

 

 

 

How's that for taking a quote out of context?

[Graendals favourite]

I think it does nicely.

[Cybertrolloc]

It is a very interesting topic but' date=' unfortunately, you cannot go on for all that long when there simple is NO new information. The last piece we got for this story was when Lanfear made an appearance in the new body. That was a fair bit ago and was not really that great a bit of information (simply validated the Lanfear/Moiraine-aren't-dead camp, which had always existed).[/quote']

Before RJ hit heavy medical therapy, there were a few new dribbles from the cons of last year that weren't being addressed. "How and where", Asmodean not being ressable because of that, a few direct pans (Fain who wasn't popular, and by some extension Taim...or at least making theory involving him strained)... Just tough to deal reasonably with someone who think Lan's been going through a mid-life-crises these last seven books to justify a small part of a Moiraine-dunnit :roll:

[Jonn]

Before RJ hit heavy medical therapy, there were a few new dribbles from the cons of last year that weren't being addressed. "How and where", Asmodean not being ressable because of that, a few direct pans (Fain who wasn't popular, and by some extension Taim...or at least making theory involving him strained)... Just tough to deal reasonably with someone who think Lan's been going through a mid-life-crises these last seven books to justify a small part of a Moiraine-dunnit :roll:

 

I'm sorry-what?

I had a very hard time following what you're trying to say here.

 

See, this is a problem for me. People saying stuff in reference to another argument without clarifying the context in which you are adressing the topic.

 

Similarly, it tends to be the same people who take everything out of context when it is explained to them at any length.

 

In the end, people like myself and Cwest are dubbed as convoluted theorists, because we have the gaul to support our hypothesis with detailed arguments, rather than fragments and incomplete phrases.

[racha_giurgiu]

By far the most compelling argument for Moiraine/Lanfear that I have read is that in not a single POV that we have read has anyone even so much as thought about how they killed Asmo. And it strikes me as quite possibly one of the strongest arguments I've heard so far. The forsaken are always mulling to themselves about this or that, even the most piddly of things let alone the death of one of the Forsaken, which I think would be a big deal.

 

not to say I am convinced it is either of them. but it does strike me as a stronger argument than most have been thus far.

[Paradoxic]

I'd have to disagree... The only time PoV has really come into play is to disprove Slayer and Sammael. Slayer's PoV involves him thinking about how awesome he is for killing two (shielded) AS and that he's never done anything nearly so cool (like killing a Forsaken). Sammael is disproven for his thoughts during a conversation with Graendal about Asmodean.

 

You can't use the absence of something to disprove it. I can't say that Paris doesn't exist simply because I've never been there. We can't say "Well, since they haven't thought about it, they must not have done it" except when they are involved in a conversation and actively think about the topic in a way that disproves their involvement (such as Sammael or, indirectly, Slayer).

[OzzieAlThor]

It was The Woman's Circle.

 

Mark my words...

[racha_giurgiu]

i am not attempting to prove or disprove anything. i am just saying that of the evidence given in the forum the most compelling to believe it was Lanfear/Moiraine is the lack of POV confessions by any other character. It's all speculation at this point and most evidence is just a hodge-podge of random facts strewn together to come off as "intuitively obvious."

[cannon]

i am just saying that of the evidence given in the forum the most compelling to believe it was Lanfear/Moiraine is the lack of POV confessions by any other character.

 

You must not have been reading my posts. Lanfear did it.

 

- She had the motive, MUCH more so than any other character in the series. After Rand's show of strength at the docks, she would have been furious with Asmo, blaming him for Rand's ability.

 

- She planned to kill him from the very beginning. She said exactly that to Rand.

 

- She certainly had the means, by way of balefire. And balefire is the only possible cause. The literary similarities between Asmo and Bel'al's death are too great to be ignored.

 

- She's the only one he was terrified of, and he clearly was terrified upon entering that door.

 

- Amso thought of her only moments before he died, thinking he was glad she was dead. This seems pretty "obvious" to me.

 

- Besides the obvious comment, Jordan stated that by the end of PoD, you should have been able to figure it out. The only significant thing to happen in this book (in terms of the suspects) was that Cyndane appeared. This now proves that Lanfear is not dead (at least not permanently).

 

The only thing against Lanfear is the whole entrapment in Finnland, which I admit is a big stumbling block. However, she's the only one who fits the obvious criteria, and she also fits the PoD statement as well.

 

Frankly, I thought it was her this entire time, precisely because of Asmo's thoughts only seconds before.

 

 

Edit: Something else I thought of as well. The other big mystery to this is why would Jordan bother keeping it a secret? The only explanation I can come up with at this point is that it has to do specifically with the Finns, which we'll find out about during the rescue of Moiraine.

 

Lanfear made her wishes, wished Asmo dead, and got died as "payment". Mat escaped the payment through a loophole. Moiraine probably hasn't wished anything, knowing full well she'll die.

[Paradoxic]

She had a motive, but so did every other forsaken (killing a traitor = many gold stars from the DO).

 

She and every other forsaken have the means (I agree it was balefire and use that fact to disprove non-forsaken suspects)

 

She was not the only one he was terrified of. Moments before he was talking about how he knew he was a dead man walking if ANY forsaken ever got their hands on him. He knows that the sight of a Forsaken = death.

 

It is only obvious if we know that RJ was using foreshadowing and not simply showing the logical thought processes of a doomed man. I can just as easily say that it wasn't Lanfear because RJ did explicitly mention her and that it must have been a false trail to confuse us.

 

RJ also said you should know who killed him right when he dies... Lanfear was gone and presumed dead (given what happened to Lan, which was the same as if Moiraine had died, there is every reason in the world to assume Lanfear died too) and he said that following bookS (plural) gave hints to the real killer. Yes, PoD should have given us the last scraps of answers and, yes, Lanfear came back in that book, but she was missing throughout the other books where additional hints were supposed to be placed.

 

I am personally a major proponent of the "While the murderer is unimportant to the story, it is oh so much fun to watch them squirm and bicker" theory as to why we haven't learned the killer's identity... It makes perfect sense for RJ to keep some trival secrets for the sake of fan fun.

[cannon]

She had a motive, but so did every other forsaken (killing a traitor = many gold stars from the DO).

That's only if the oppurtunity presents itself. No one is going to go out of their way to kill him. Especially not stalk the Dragon in Camlyn right after he killed Rahvin, just waiting for a moment to kill Asmo. He's not worth it.

 

Lanfear is the only one of them who would have actively sought him out.

 

It is only obvious if we know that RJ was using foreshadowing and not simply showing the logical thought processes of a doomed man. I can just as easily say that it wasn't Lanfear because RJ did explicitly mention her and that it must have been a false trail to confuse us.

Well it's not foreshadowing, it's irony. He was just thinking that he was glad she was dead, and then she shows up and kills him. This is a common literary device and RJ uses it a LOT in these books.

 

RJ also said you should know who killed him right when he dies...

Exactly! When looking at the literary hints (ie: Asmo's thought process immediately prior to his death) you should be able to recognize it immediately. In fact, it seems pretty "obvious".

 

and he said that following bookS (plural) gave hints to the real killer. Yes, PoD should have given us the last scraps of answers and, yes, Lanfear came back in that book, but she was missing throughout the other books where additional hints were supposed to be placed.

Where did he say that additional hints should be throughout the other books? I'm only aware of the one comment he made at a TPOD signing:

 

"I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD]."

 

I am personally a major proponent of the "While the murderer is unimportant to the story, it is oh so much fun to watch them squirm and bicker" theory as to why we haven't learned the killer's identity... It makes perfect sense for RJ to keep some trival secrets for the sake of fan fun.

 

Actually, I subscribe to the "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern" theory that Asmo's death is unimportant to the story, but kept a secret for the reader to wonder what ever happened. If that's the case, and he did it purposely like Shakespeare, we'll definitely find out in the last book.

[Paradoxic]

Lanfear's theory also fails to fully explain the following:

 

1) Why only kill Asmodean? Last we saw, she was actively trying to kill Rand. Infact, she had just Flayed A Man Alive for learning that Rand was sleeping with another woman. Why not kill that woman? Why not kill Rand? On the whole scale of things, it doesn't make sense for her to bother with Asmodean when she evidently is so greatly bothered by this other woman thing.

 

2) How did she get out of Finnland? Why did they let her out? They don't make deals, they grant requests in their own way... so it's not like she could have said "pretty please? I'll come back, really! Cross my heart and hope to die (really)."

 

3) How'd she get back in? RJ has said that the Finn cannot affect the outside world. I'm a firm believer that such a statement includes the act of dragging someone from the 'real' world into Finnland. There were only two ways into this other dimension known to us at that time; one was a doorway in Tear and the other just melted into uselessness.

 

4) It isn't intuitive to anyone that believes her dead, which really is the only logical conclusion one could come to at that point. All evidence at the time indicated Moiraine died given how Lan reacted... this would lead us to believe that Lanfear also died. Anything beyond that requires either the suspension of logic or the invention of additional possible explanations. Yes, obviously Moiraine believed she would live through it (Lanfear definately did not though, hmm), but none of that was known at the time.

[Zacharias]

It almost definetly wasn't Lanfear. She's in with the finn's... you seriously think her one wish would be to kill asmo???

 

Not a chance.

[Kadere]

She had 3 wishes, and she hated Asmodean and wanted to get back at Rand. She's the only Forsaken, besides possibly Moridin (though he wasn't reborn at the time) with any connection, or motivation to kill Asmo.

[OzzieAlThor]

She didn't have to motivated to do it. ALl it would take is an order from the DO.

 

I still say it's those crafty chick in the Women's Circle. The Buie's are evil people...