one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[havoc110]

How would anyone find out about Natael? Would they get it by watching the "O'Reilly Factor"? Those that believe in Dragons and Forsaken to begin with...

 

I don't think that you can see this, but you have done much more in the way of "persona inventing" for Asmo than anybody (except of course for GF) is doing for Graendal in order to make their theories fit.

 

Asmo is not a threat. He is not respected by his peers. His own POV reveals him to be resigned and pathetic. Your statements make him into what he is not. The safest/best place for Asmo was next to Rand. Asmo knew it. Rand knew it. Moiraine knew it. They all know it and each of them directly tells us they know it in the body of the text.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree with that assessment. The likelihood of anyone finding out who Jasin Natael was is so remote that it wouldn't have been very high on Moiraines list when so many MORE problems were there. You might say "Well, the Forsaken who know could start it as a rumor." But they could do that with anyone, they could say "Bashere is Aginor" or "Mat is Lanfear".

 

 

Sorry. I've always wanted to say Mat is Lanfear.

 

For that matter they could leak Taim as a darkfriend. Half of nobody trusts the Asha'man anyway, and it would just be one rumor among 1000. Or, if they didn't want to risk Taim's standing, they could claim Logain is a darkfriend.

[havoc110]

Exactly so, and this was never mentioned by the Forsaken in FOH. People are using 21st century America as a model. There are no elections in Randland, at least where Dragons and Forsaken are concerned. No need to "spin" anything, no battle of public opinion. No mass media outlets. "Extra! Extra! Read all about it!!! Amyrlin Seat Stilled! Aes Sedai Civil War!"

 

I know there have been a few (read: very few) scenes in the White Tower about information control, and maybe a couple mentions of Graendal rumor-mongering in an effort to sow confusion in Arad Doman, but in general the Fourth Estate has not come to Randland.

 

It was not (I don't think, anyway) specifically mentioned in the text, but not hard to infer that the trap in Illian could have netted Asmo as well in a sort of 2-for-1 special. It was probably brought up as a contingency, since they knew Asmo was in Rand's company, and they wanted to draw Rand to Illian. Their plan was probably "kill on sight" as far as Asmo was concerned. Which only lends further credence to Graendal theories.

[Jonn]

lol. How we scramble.

 

OK, we'll argure this point, and then some. :)

 

It shouldn't take much to damage Rand's reputation in any case. So many rumors are spread about him anyhow, right? Asmodean presents a very specific problem though. The rumor of who he is is actually the truth. Is there a difference? Let's see...Yes. Ever play poker?

 

Asmodean being revealed as one of the Forsaken is just one example of how the man could betray Rand. It, in fact, is an example of how much of a liability he is.

 

Let's say one of the Forsaken decides to play Asmodean against Rand. Say Moghedien or Graendal even, tried to make contact, under a white flag. They offer him their protection, and alliance, in return for insight on how much Rand knows. They may want to know the intimacies of Rand's motivations. Who he protects, who is important to him. Information here could harm rand as easily as a fireball. They could (and would) use the man for information and then kill him after learning as much as possible.

 

The nobles. They don't trust Rand as it is. If they catch wind of the truth of Asmodean's identity, Rand's credibility evaporates like fog in the noon sun.

 

Let's say one of the other Aes Sedai figures out Asmodean's Forsaken identity. It's all too possible, even with people who seem as obstinate as the Aes Sedai. This would put any side of the rebel conflict at odds with Rand. They would trust him even less, and in most cases, would probably come to some very damaging conclusions about how to deal with the man. Verin may be the exception. She would probably try to kill Asmodean herself as she almost did kill Cadsuane. Again, Verin is much akin to Moiraine in her ideas of helping Rand to win Tarmon Gaidon. We can look at Verin's actions as a guage of how a proper Aes Sedai would deal with a threat to Rand's credibility.

 

The Aiel. The Shaido and the Brotherless all don't accept Rand, just because he's a wetlander. If one Wise One or Chief suspected or confirmed Asmodean's true nature or identity, it would be a crisis beyond imagination. The Car'a'carn, a shadowrunner! The Aiel could fracture and scatter even worse than the Shaido schism. Again, Asmodean would be at the heart of it.

 

And please...to counter my argument with silliness like "Mat is Lanfear"... That's pretty weak. Nothing is more damaging than the truth. To have Asmodean revealed and to deny it just spirals into a web of lies that can have nothing good as a result.

 

Also, it doesn't take a worldwide newscast to have a rumor bring devestation. Simply, key people who are close to Rand or important to his power structure, if they find out...that's all it takes. If key figures get wind of the truth and are convinced. See that's the difference here. Asmodean being himself is not a rumor, it is truth. Imagine Sorilea and Amys finding out and just sitting on the fact? Rhuarc would find out and so would all of the other loyal Chiefs. You think Bashere is going to serve a man who consorts with the Forsaken? The Tairens and the Cairhienin will take any excuse to oppose Rand and to grab the power for themselves. Rand could just ignore it, or lie about it though.

 

It can only go on so long, and again, it changes the dynamic of things amongst the Chosen. They have even more options to play with Asmodean, the pet Forsaken being circulated on the tongues of the nobles and Rand's inner circle.

 

This is all besides the point by the way. Moiraine didn't approve of Asmodean. She understood for Rand's sake, but she could not approve. Moiraine was probably the most dedicated to being on Rand's side of all the people in the cast. Even though she had figured it out, she kept quiet, and bided her time. Still, she felt the need to mention it in her final letters.

 

You see, it all moot because of those letters and the resulting death of Asmodean. In those letters, Moiraine addressed the things that were most important for her to address before she left.

 

A lot of people against Moiraine like to point out that Asmodean is just not important enough for Moiraine to waste a wish on.

 

The letter is concrete evidence that Asmodean was at the top of her priorities, for her to mention him and bring attention to his nature. That stands as irrefutable. She didn't write that letter to just chit chat, and how's your father. Everything in that letter served a crucial purpose, of the most desperate need. It was to be quite possibly, the last anyone had heard of Moiraine Damodred in that world, so every drip of ink meant something. She's not going to mention Asmodean as a gentle reminder. Rand knows who he's dealing with. There is another purpose to mentioning Asmodean besides proving that Rand couldn't hide the truth from Moiraine (although, as my truth scenario points out, it does prove an important point to consider, Moiraine being able to work out his identity).

 

It provides a window towards her motive to move against Asmodean at the given chance. It gives a specific clue towards her intent. She deemed the man dangerous, and a dangerous man who could harm Rand in so many ways, left near him is something that Moiraine would never abide.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And please...to counter my argument with silliness like "Mat is Lanfear"... That's pretty weak. Nothing is more damaging than the truth. To have Asmodean revealed and to deny it just spirals into a web of lies that can have nothing good as a result.

 

That was CLEARLY a joke. I just think it's funny to say "Mat is Lanfear."

 

There are so many rumors floating around about Rand, information control is a moot point. If the people involved are going to believe a source manipulated by the Forsaken, then they'll believe whatever that source tells them, so the Forsaken can say whatever they want. If they believe Rand, then all he has to do is say, "The man is my bard." He can say that without lying, and they would believe him. Besides, the people who question him most often wouldn't balk at keeping a Forsaken chained. The girls have done it themselves. And for everyone else, either an evasion is sufficient or they'll never question Rand.

 

As to those nobles who don't trust him, do you really think they need an excuse? The only group to whom that information might do some damage is the Aiel, MAYBE (if they weren't talking about how much ji he gained by capturing a Shadowsouled). If Egwene and Elayne didn't balk at keeping a Forsaken chained, i doubt Sorilea or Amys would. For that matter, you didn't see anyone saying "We have to kill Semirhage now" when she was captured.

 

If it became an issue (which is unlikely) he could dispel it the same way he dispelled the rumors that he had knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. IF it became an issue.

 

Anyway, you'll no doubt disagree :lol:

[havoc110]

You take the last four sentences in the letter and make them paramount.

 

Clearly the highest priority is LANFEAR. This is irrefutable (although you seem to have a real ability to refute the obvious). How you come up with Asmo is beyond me.

 

Your arguments about her not killing him and facing Rand's displeasure and/or wrath (mentioned many pages ago in this thread) are also wholly unfounded, because clearly Asmo can be killed with no one the wiser (hence this thread). And I find it hard to believe that you would consider Moiraine incapable of such a planned attack and being able to keep it a secret from Rand. Especially considering what you do consider her capable of. Even more especially since you believe that she's capable of killing Asmo and keeping it a secret from Rand.

 

She most certainly could and would have done so if she deemed it necessary, before her appoinment at the docks. And no one would have been the wiser.

 

Regarding your interpretations of Moiraine's letter, too much hinges on what would not be a typical AS bending of the truth, but rather boldfaced lying. Especially concerning her knowledge of events after the docks (re: Mat's letter). You would have RJ fly in the face of literary convention regarding foretelling and foreknowledge just so your theory will fit.

 

And Verin, "proper Aes Sedai", you say?

You copy of Fires of Heaven must be misprinted, that would account for much. Your copy must have the Moiraine's letter begin with "Be wary of Master Jasin Natael..."

Trust me when I say that there are other things in that letter and one of those things concerns Verin. Whatever Verin may or may not be, "proper Aes Sedai" is certainly not one of them.

[Ashlan]

As discovered at this year's dragon con, Asmodean died of his allergic reaction to apples.

Please don't ask me to recount how we came to that conclusion. It was early in the morning and most of us were still recovering from the previous night.

I plan on leading a full investigation into Mott's juice company and Snapple to find the truth.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Verin bit is just a warning against Aes Sedai manipulation. She picked two Aes Sedai that he had outwardly shown some trust in(one in person, one not, so that he would include all the Sisters he already knew, and the ones he had only heard of ro from), and told him to be wary of them, and all the Sisters. Moiraine had reached the point where she TRUSTED Rand, and trusted his judgement. He had gone a different way than she wanted consistently, and he had consistently turned out to be right. Moiraine is not stupid. She realized that her "plans" didnt fit the Pattern, and that Rand, instinctively or otherwise, was able to fit himself to it. "You will do well". And if HER plans didn't fit, the other Aes Sedai's plans were surely not better.

 

This is, by the way, an argument against her motive. She had become demonstratedly reluctant to act outside of Rand's plans, without having some other confirmation that it was the right and safe course (cases in point, the scene at the docks, and the rescue instructions. Both were viewed in either the rings in Rhuidean, or the Aelfinn ter'angreal.) Outside of those situations, she would be reluctant to act against Rand, because she had seen how he and the Pattern "got along" (and no, I'm not suggesting the Pattern is sentient/sapient, I'm just saying that his plans turned out to be right). She knew he had Asmodean firmly leashed. Rememeber the prophecy she they discussed in Tear before he went to Rhuidean?

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding

dances the sword in dreams and mist

chains the Shadowsworn to his will

from the city, lost and forsaken

leads the spears to war once more

breaks the spears and makes them see

truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

 

(The Shadow Rising, Doorways, p.109-110)

 

He and Moiraine specifically discussed this prophecy before he went to Rhuidean. Against her wishes. And she watched him fulfill prophecy there. Including chaining the Shadowsworn to his will. She was more than smart enough to figure out that he had fulfilled prophecy by capturing Asmodean. And you think she would then kill him? Risking upsetting prophecy? I doubt that seriously.

[havoc110]

I think that yes, the warning about Verin is about general Aes Sedai manipulation. But I also believe it to be specific to Verin herself.

 

Clearly there is something going on with Verin and her hidden agenda, and whatever that something turns out to be (tune in to other threads) it will be above and beyond what people would call "general AS manipulation".

 

My new Verin theory is that she is some type of double agent. I don't think that it has to do with the BA, because BA members would know of her. But if a past Amyrlin (Siuan or her predecessors) thought, "It might be useful to have one of us, one of us we REALLY trust, to be able to operate outside the three oaths, like the BA do..."

 

It is possible that it was Siuan's idea, and that only SS, Leane, and Moiraine know, and have sworn to secrecy. And this was Moiraine's only chance to drop a hint to Rand.

 

And yes, this is all purely speculation on my part. But it is a theory that can survive when the material in the text is brought to bear upon it.

[Cybertrolloc]

Cyndane used a very miniscule flow of fire to try to burn a hole through Alivia. Asmodean himself used a minor weave against Rand in the fog of Rhuidean that almost took his head off.

Real world, an air bubble in your heart or really anywhere in your blood can kill. How much of the power would it take to sever someone's spinal cord--that'd be instantly fatal, and probably undetectable outside the power, the former even less likely. It just hasn't come up, and probably won't: Jordan doesn't make it that easy for characters to die for one.

 

RobertAlexWillis, it's in the thread rules: the only allowed speculation involves Moiraine or things involving the Finn that affect Moiraine's ability to kill Asmo, everything else is baseless speculation and requires deduction only from what is published :roll: ;)

[Jonn]

You take the last four sentences in the letter and make them paramount.

 

Uhh...yeah. Generally, the last few items in a letter are probably rather important.

 

Clearly the highest priority is LANFEAR. This is irrefutable (although you seem to have a real ability to refute the obvious). How you come up with Asmo is beyond me.

 

Nope, Lanfear is the priority, but if Rand receives that letter, chances are, Moiraine accomplished her first priority.

 

What's obvious to me is that Asmodean represents the last link between Lanfear and Rand.

 

His presence as a subject in Moiraine's last letter to Rand rather obviously points out that Asmodean is a priority of thought besides Lanfear.

 

See, the way it works is, you get one thing out of the way and then you move on to the next thing.

 

If that's beyond your comprehension to grasp, I don't know what else to say to you.

 

Your arguments about her not killing him and facing Rand's displeasure and/or wrath (mentioned many pages ago in this thread) are also wholly unfounded, because clearly Asmo can be killed with no one the wiser (hence this thread). And I find it hard to believe that you would consider Moiraine incapable of such a planned attack and being able to keep it a secret from Rand. Especially considering what you do consider her capable of. Even more especially since you believe that she's capable of killing Asmo and keeping it a secret from Rand.

 

This paragraph is so confused, I don't really know what you're trying to get at.

 

Asmodean disappeared. That's it. Rand assumed that the guy just ran away. After so long of not hearing from him or about him, Rand could figure that Asmodean got ran afoul or is so deep in hiding that looking for him is pointless.

 

In any case, I said that Rand would be displeased that his teacher got killed by Moiraine out in the open.

 

Also, killing Asmodean before Lanfear would have been a tip off to Lanfear that could have dramatically changed events.

 

cwest has pointed this out several times, that Asmodean probably had to be present for the attack on the docks for whatever reason.

 

 

She most certainly could and would have done so if she deemed it necessary, before her appoinment at the docks. And no one would have been the wiser.

 

*sigh* Again, you've selectively read this thread and have ignored several arguments that render your point moot. What's teh point of you commenting if you're going to ignore every point against your argument?

 

I try to address every point that is put in from of me and to break down each argument. You've just for about the 3rd or 4th time, brought up a point that was argued down, months ago. It's posts like yours that keep this thread going in circles.

 

I really appreciate RAW's input though I disagree with him. He's managed to help us carry the arguments to different angles, and though we do come across repeats of points, there seems to be an effort to look at things from different alternate views.

 

You on the other hand have repeated the same boring point that had been debunked pages ago.

 

Regarding your interpretations of Moiraine's letter, too much hinges on what would not be a typical AS bending of the truth, but rather boldfaced lying.

 

Like what? Give an example.

 

Especially concerning her knowledge of events after the docks (re: Mat's letter). You would have RJ fly in the face of literary convention regarding foretelling and foreknowledge just so your theory will fit.

 

How? You have to explain to me, because I'm not getting any information here that makes sense.

 

And Verin, "proper Aes Sedai", you say?

You copy of Fires of Heaven must be misprinted, that would account for much. Your copy must have the Moiraine's letter begin with "Be wary of Master Jasin Natael..."

Trust me when I say that there are other things in that letter and one of those things concerns Verin. Whatever Verin may or may not be, "proper Aes Sedai" is certainly not one of them.

 

Again, how is Verin not a proper Aes Sedai? You're just saying things here without any base of logic or examples that make sense.

 

What you've basically said here is that Verin is not a proper Aes Sedai...because you said so.

 

I say that Verin is proper because she actually does things based on her best judgement. She studies the angles and possibilities and she takes risks. She seems to be on the right side of things, and she does what she can to help Rand in the fashion she sees fit. She was even willing to poison Cadsuane if she proved to be humiliating Rand for her own purposes. She wanted to know the motives, and was willing to act against a fellow Aes Sedai if they proved harmful to Rand. It's my opinion that Verin is proper Aes Sedai, but I've backed my opinion with examples, which you can either agree with or not. It's the same reasoning I that leads me to think that Moiraine is a proper Aes Sedai.

 

And a proper Aes Sedain knows how to prioritize. If she has one letter to say what she had to say to Rand, everything EVERYTHING IN THAT LETTER IS IMPORTANT.

 

Again you've discarded in one post what was said just prior to yours and acted like you can pick and choose what was said and what wasn't.

 

In that letter she could have said "Merry Christmas Rand" and it would have been important (though in an entirely different way...I imagine :) ).

 

She didn't waste a word in that letter, and mentioning Asmodean at all speaks miles of the import of that fact.

[Jonn]

As discovered at this year's dragon con, Asmodean died of his allergic reaction to apples.

Please don't ask me to recount how we came to that conclusion. It was early in the morning and most of us were still recovering from the previous night.

I plan on leading a full investigation into Mott's juice company and Snapple to find the truth.

 

I thought it was peaches that were poisonous.

[Cybertrolloc]

EVERYTHING IN THAT LETTER IS IMPORTANT.

Most important of all is the "I've been putting this off, so here's what I could throw together after our chat last night, sorry there isn't much useful outside of immediate concerns." ;)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Lastly, be wary of Master Jasin Natael. I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perjaps it was the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always.

Other than the final salution, that is the final section of Moiraine's letter. It is also potentially the least understood as the wording could mean absolutely anything. The second and third sentences are completely open to interpretation. Havoc's statement implies that Jonn is taking the last four sentences (actually, neither the last, nor only four) and making them paramount as if the anti-Moiraine crowd hasn't done the same. How many times haven't they stated that Moiraine had no motive based on that same paragraph.

 

"I cannot wholly approve, but I understand."

 

She understood Rand's reason for thinking it was necessary to shelter Asmodean. She doesn't say that she approves in even the slightest way. Her not wholly approving can mean anything from 99 44/100ths percent approval to absolutely 100 percent disapproval. Either can be said as not wholly approving.

 

"Perhaps it was the only way."

 

There's that word "perhaps" again. Many people, including those that want to say she accepts this as the only way, routinely consider that "Perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance" was a poor attempt at diverting Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne from Moiraine's faux pas conserning marriage. It's a great word in that it allows her to say a blatant lie without violating the Oath. Perhaps Moiraine didn't consider it the only way at all, or even an acceptable one. Saying "perhaps" allows her to convey acceptance anyway.

 

"He is the same man now that he always was."

 

That is about the only statement of importance in the paragraph that uses definite language. It tells us that Moiraine still considers Asmodean to be just as dangerous and just as committed to the Dark One as he ever was. He is still just as capable of betraying Rand as he appears to have betrayed the Dark One. In Moiraine's oppinion, Asmodean will do whatever seems the most likely to save his hide.

 

Don't forget, Moiraine is Aes Sedai and Cairhienin. Anytime she speaks in non-definite terms, start looking for the fine print and between the lines. No one is going to be better at saying one thing while meaning something totally different. Even her "death bed confession" has more loop holes than a tax code.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Jonn: EVERYTHING IN THAT LETTER IS IMPORTANT.

 

Cybertrolloc: Most important of all is the "I've been putting this off, so here's what I could throw together after our chat last night, sorry there isn't much useful outside of immediate concerns." ;)

 

As Jonn said, everything in the letter is important. When you have one last chance to make a lasting impression, you don't waste time on trivialities. You might even consider making what you consider the most important point last. That way it stands out and doesn't get buried under everything that would otherwise come after it.

[havoc110]

Your misinterpretation of the letter is consistent with your misinterpretation of everything else.

 

The purpose of the letter, whatever you choose to believe, is to explain the events at the docks to Rand in order to possibly (but not likely) reduce Rand's guilt over her (alleged) loss. That's it. That's the next priority as you say. What is in the body of the letter, that is, what is written before "A few final points..." is the critical message. Not the last four sentences.

 

Now certainly we can agree that everything in the letter is important. But the zealous degree it which you take this point, well let's just call it extreme and leave it at that.

 

I hope you will excuse me in not accepting that Asmo has to be at the docks because cwest says it is so. But I could accept that if I could also use GF's theories as proof the Graendal is the killer.

 

Also, you indicate that you are oblivious to theories concerning Verin, and her possible allegiances, or lack thereof, that are located on these and other WOT related sites. Perhaps your exuberance for Moiraine's character is only surpassed by your devotion to Verin. I do not intend to find out...

[Jonn]

And please...to counter my argument with silliness like "Mat is Lanfear"... That's pretty weak. Nothing is more damaging than the truth. To have Asmodean revealed and to deny it just spirals into a web of lies that can have nothing good as a result.

 

That was CLEARLY a joke. I just think it's funny to say "Mat is Lanfear."

 

There are so many rumors floating around about Rand, information control is a moot point. If the people involved are going to believe a source manipulated by the Forsaken, then they'll believe whatever that source tells them, so the Forsaken can say whatever they want. If they believe Rand, then all he has to do is say, "The man is my bard." He can say that without lying, and they would believe him. Besides, the people who question him most often wouldn't balk at keeping a Forsaken chained. The girls have done it themselves. And for everyone else, either an evasion is sufficient or they'll never question Rand.

 

As to those nobles who don't trust him, do you really think they need an excuse? The only group to whom that information might do some damage is the Aiel, MAYBE (if they weren't talking about how much ji he gained by capturing a Shadowsouled). If Egwene and Elayne didn't balk at keeping a Forsaken chained, i doubt Sorilea or Amys would. For that matter, you didn't see anyone saying "We have to kill Semirhage now" when she was captured.

 

If it became an issue (which is unlikely) he could dispel it the same way he dispelled the rumors that he had knelt to the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. IF it became an issue.

 

Anyway, you'll no doubt disagree :lol:

 

Good points, but we'll never know now, will we? ;)

 

Fact is, Rand needed Asmodean at the time and that was dangerous. Keeping a forsaken captive is dicey at best. The girls may have captured Moghedien, but they gained an enemy that could chose to strike from the shadows literally at any time. Nynaeve knows this all too well. We'll disregard the fact that Moghedien's failed attack resulted in Nynaeve's block being broken, and a fairly romantic reunion with Lan. FAte makes for strange bedfellows. lol

 

I digress...Forsaken as captives doesn't usually result in exactly what you may plan for. Moghedien managed to escape. Doubtless Semirhage in captivity is going to present some unique challenges. Asmodean had some definite pitfalls in holding. That was the main point I was trying to make.

 

It's just one of several reasons to kill Asmodean.

 

Once his shield was gone, what would he be thinking of doing then? He certanly isn't going to teach Rand how to make a similar shield.

[havoc110]

Other than the final salution, that is the final section of Moiraine's letter. It is also potentially the least understood as the wording could mean absolutely anything. The second and third sentences are completely open to interpretation. Havoc's statement implies that Jonn is taking the last four sentences (actually, neither the last, nor only four) and making them paramount as if the anti-Moiraine crowd hasn't done the same. How many times haven't they stated that Moiraine had no motive based on that same paragraph.

 

This is not an equivalent comparison.

 

You and Jonn are saying that this is Moiraine's most important message to Rand. The four sentences concerning Asmo. I have given you my interpretation of Moiraine's central message in my last post.

 

Many anti-Moiraine theorists use this part of the letter as part of the basis of the case, but it is certainly not the most critical. I sort of view these final words as a sort of "P.S." I am probably not alone in this view. However, taken at face value, they would indicate a reluctant acceptance of Asmo's role as teacher.

 

But the Moiraine theorists need this item to be critical. Because in order for Moiraine to come back from Finnland, Asmo needs to be IMPORTANT. See, look, Moiraine thinks Asmo is IMPORTANT. Therefore it must be that a champion of Light must come from another dimension to vanquish this champion of Dark.

 

The rest of us look at the end of the letter just as we look at Asmo: as an aside. The only thing remotely remarkable about Asmo is the unknown circumstances of his demise.

[Guest cwestervelt]

havon110: Your misinterpretation of the letter is consistent with your misinterpretation of everything else.

 

The purpose of the letter, whatever you choose to believe, is to explain the events at the docks to Rand in order to possibly (but not likely) reduce Rand's guilt over her (alleged) loss. That's it. That's the next priority as you say. What is in the body of the letter, that is, what is written before "A few final points..." is the critical message. Not the last four sentences.

 

Now certainly we can agree that everything in the letter is important. But the zealous degree it which you take this point, well let's just call it extreme and leave it at that.

 

I hope you will excuse me in not accepting that Asmo has to be at the docks because cwest says it is so. But I could accept that if I could also use GF's theories as proof the Graendal is the killer.

 

Also, you indicate that you are oblivious to theories concerning Verin, and her possible allegiances, or lack thereof, that are located on these and other WOT related sites. Perhaps your exuberance for Moiraine's character is only surpassed by your devotion to Verin. I do not intend to find out...

 

I could also say that your misinterpretation of the letter is just as consistent with your misinterpretation of everything else. I'm misinterpeting the letter if Moiraine turns out not to be the killer. You are misinterpreting the letter if Moiraine turns out to be the killer.

 

What is written before the "a few final points" is not the only critical, or even the most critical point. Moiraine's intention was a lot more than just trying to make Rand feel better about her "death" no matter how you choose to read it. Her comments about Borderlanders and Menetherenites protecting women are indicative that she knew nothing she could say would make any difference anyway. Rand was still going to blame himself and put her name at the top of his list.

 

You use your conclusion, "the few final points," to drill home the most cogent points your are trying to make. The points you want to be certain are remembered by the reader even if nothing else is.

[havoc110]

I guess now we need to analyze Moiraine's letter writing style.

 

I would agree with you if the body of the letter mentioned Asmo at all, but it did not (rereading for 10th time today to make sure of this).

 

This concluding list does not appear to be a "summary of important points" because none of those points appear in the body of the letter. It appears to be more along the lines of "some other points of note".

 

To drill home the point, you have to have made the point previously. For example, had she wrote after the Asmo paragraph. "Remember Rand, I chose to jump through the gateway and take Lanfear with me. There was nothing you could do to deter me". Then that would be an example of drilling home the point.

 

However, the lack of these items in the main body of the letter tends to have me consider them as a list of "other matters requiring attention".

 

You are correct in your statement that at least one of us is misinterpreting the letter. Who knows, we could all be wrong.

[Cybertrolloc]

These words will fade within moments after this leaves your hands--a warding attuned to you--so be careful of it. That you are reading this means that events have fallen out at the docks as I hoped...

 

Since the first day I reached Rhuidean' date=' I have known--it need not trouble you how; some secrets belong to others, and I will not betray them--that a day would come in Carhien when news would arrive of Morgase. I did not know what that would be--if what we heard is true, the Light have mercy on her soul; she was willful and stubborn, with the temper of a lioness at times, but for all that a true, good and gracious queen--but each tume that news led to the docks on the following day. There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear...

 

The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

 

I hope that Egwene and Avienda have survived unharmed. You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing that does not concern you.

 

I could not tell you for the same reason I could not tell Lan. Even given the choices, I could not be sure which you would pick. Men of the Two Rivers, it seems, retain much of storied Manetheren in them, traits shared with men of the Borderlands. It is said that a Borderlander will take a dagger's wound to avoid harm to a woman and count it fair trade. I dared not risk that you would place my life above your own, certain that somehow you could sidestep fate. Not a risk, I fear, but a foolish certainty as today has surely proved...

 

A few final points.

 

If Lan is not already gone, tell him that what I did to him, I did for the best. He will understand one day, and I hope, bless me for it.

 

Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did.

 

Please deliver Thom Merrilin's letter safely when you meet him again. There is a small matter that I once told him of which I must make clear for his peace of mind.

 

Lastly, be wary of Master Jasin Nateal.I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way. Yet be careful of him. He is the same man now that he always was. Remember that always.

 

May the Light illumine and protect you. You will do well.

 

Fading Words, [b']The Fires of Heaven[/b]

Hmm, guess it was Thom's letter that had the I've been putting this off line.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Havoc, I guess we are at an impass on the letter. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Beating the horse is getting boring.

[Jonn]

cwest, if you will allow me...;) Oh and cybertrolloc, thanks for putting the letter up.

 

Everything in that letter is important. No one item in that letter is more important than the other, and if so, not by much. If we must break the letter down to bring some light into the argument, I'll try to do so, gladly. Moiraine's letter can be divided into two movements. There is a division in the middle of the letter. This is important to note, because this division helps to illuminate Moirane's purpose not only to Rand, but as well, it will offer clues and some lingering light of understanding to the readers of the books. Another purpose is that it is probably one of the most affecting emotional moemnts in the series, and it really is a masterful bit of writing by RJ (much moreso than the letter to Thom which I found a bit clunky and...busy.)

 

Actually, the division of the letter has more to do with two goals.

 

The first goal was to try to explain to Rand why Moiraine did what she did. It's designed to give Rand enough to try to come to grips with the result, and to give a bit of insight to Rand that he desperately needs from Moiraine, and has desperately needed from her since he first found out what kind of adventure he had landed in. Moiraine tried to explain what she was thinking, and the reasoning behind her actions, something she vowed that she needn't have to do since Eye of the World. It was a big moment that's often underrated and overlooked because of how many questions surround the letter and its meaning. Thematically, it is a gem.

 

The letter is then bisected by the phrase:

 

"A few final points."

 

Now, here's where I have a problem with havoc's interpretation. He seems to think that this phrase means that whatever follows is the less important part of the letter.

 

I will say outright that this is one of the most dead wrong, self-serving conclusions I have ever heard of regarding this debate. Incredible.

 

Since when does "A few final points.", translate into, here's the minor stuff I need to tell you?

 

Nothing she says in this letter is minor.

 

A few final points simply divides the letter into a new section in which she stops her beginning focus, which was explanatory exposition.

 

She then starts to go over important details Rand should remember as she will not be there to advise him. That's the second goal.

 

All of these points she mentions are either important to her personally or crucial warnings for Rand to remember.

 

As this letter is warded to fade after he releases it. What Rand is able to recall will be rather important for him if he intends to heed what Moirane has told him...So, generally what is the easiest thing for someone to remember when they've read something?

 

The last thing they've read, yes?

 

Hmm, strange that the last thing in a disappearing ink letter is a warning about Asmodean, indicating that Moiraine doesn't trust him and neither should Rand.

 

So, to recap...It is important for Rand to have an explanation from Moiraine of why she did what she did. this is indeed very important for her to say.

 

It is equally important to give Rand some final advice and warnings, as she will not be able to do so for some time, and perhaps never again.

 

So let's go over what she wanted to drive home to Rand:

 

First she asks Rand to tend to Lan. That's personally important to her. It reprises the theme in the first portion that she had her reasons and justifications in acting as she did.

 

Next she warns Rand not to trust Aes Sedai blindly, no matter who they are. That's sound advice and surely important for Rand to remember, especially her mention of both Verin and Alviarin, who turn out to be in direct contrast to each other.

 

Rand apparently forgot this advice and it led to his capture in Lord of Chaos after he took Alviarin for her word in her letter.

 

Meanwhile Verin has come to join him several times and has defended him and his friends at different junctures.

 

Next there's a reminder to give Thom his letter. Again, this is a rather personal matter for her, because it may hold the key to her life, and being able to serve Rand once more.

 

And LASTLY...Jasin Natael.

 

So, we have the explanation of her actions in the first portion of the letter. Then we have 4 items of interest to Rand. Two personal items and 2 warnings.

 

The first warning was rather obvious as at this point Rand is certainly wary about Aes Sedai. Lord of Chaos will prove that he was not wary enough. And behold, one of the Aes Sedai Moiraine mentioned by name is deeply involved in the debacle.

 

Asmodean is the subject of Moiraine's final words. It is a warning. Her warning about Aes Sedai proved prescient. If Asmodean was just a bitsy nothing reminder...why mention him? Why mention him at the end. The last words she would give to Rand are about Asmodean.

 

Why?

 

Don't argue with me about the order or any of that. Don't argue about her writing style or anything so trivial. Why would she give warning about Asmodean? He's one of the forsaken. It seems rather redundant to warn Rand to be wary of the man. It seems kind of silly actually, seeing as these are likely the last words she'll be able to convey to the man who is the very center of her life's work.

 

Tell me why she would mention Asmodean for no reason, last, in a fading letter, that is to be her pivotal communication with the Dragon Reborn before she leaves the world.

 

Why?

[RobertAlexWillis]

As to her letter to Rand, why mention Asmodean at all in the letter if she planned to kill him? And if she didn't plan it in advance, then how is the letter evidence of her intent?

 

 

Now, another point I'd really like to see someone address.

 

Motive is a part of the speculation on Moiraine's willingness to kill Asmodean. Potential evidence against that motive is a part of this discussion. This prophecy, which applies to Asmodean and Rand, and was known by Moiraine, constitutes such an example.

 

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh/

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin/

The Reborn One[Rand, obviously], marked and bleeding[herons, dragons, never-healing wound]/

dances the sword[Aiel metaphor for battle, with Rand's weapon] in dreams and mist [Rhuidean held the Aiel's dreams in a shield of mist]/

chains the Shadowsworn[ASMODEAN] to his will/

from the city, lost and forsaken[Rhuidean]/

leads the spears[Aiel] to war once more/

breaks the spears and makes them see/

truth long hidden in the ancient dream[by telling them the secret history revealed in the pillars]."

 

(The Shadow Rising, Doorways, p.109-110)

 

I have included interpretation in brackets, to show how this applies to the situation with Rand and Asmodean. Moiraine has shown a propensity for taking the Prophecies of the Dragon very seriously. Why would she kill a man, even a Forsaken, that Rand had chained to his will ACCORDING TO THE PROPHECIES? Rand had proven to her that she misinterpreted that prophecy the first time. She would have had him going after Sammael. But she was wrong about that one, and she knew it. Why would she then deliberately act against a fulfilled prophecy, one she knew Rand had gotten right in spite of her? That kind of risk for little gain and much potential loss (she knew Rand had learned much from him as a teacher) is not smart, and Moiraine is smart.

 

Fact is, Rand needed Asmodean at the time and that was dangerous. Keeping a forsaken captive is dicey at best. The girls may have captured Moghedien, but they gained an enemy that could chose to strike from the shadows literally at any time. Nynaeve knows this all too well. We'll disregard the fact that Moghedien's failed attack resulted in Nynaeve's block being broken, and a fairly romantic reunion with Lan. FAte makes for strange bedfellows. lol

 

I digress...Forsaken as captives doesn't usually result in exactly what you may plan for. Moghedien managed to escape. Doubtless Semirhage in captivity is going to present some unique challenges. Asmodean had some definite pitfalls in holding. That was the main point I was trying to make.

 

It's just one of several reasons to kill Asmodean.

 

Moghedien was trying to kill the girls before they captured her. So its not like they made a new enemy when they took her. And so far, she's the only one to escape a leash. Your "doubtless" assumption about Semirhage is just that, pure assumption. And what pitfalls did Asmodean have? Exposure was not a serious danger, especially AFTER Lanfear, Kadere, and Isendre were all gone. And his POVs demonstrate clearly that he was not even considering betraying Rand. He was focused on "clinging to his tuft of grass." The fact is he was chained, dangerous only to the Forsaken as he enabled Rand to learn the rudiments of the Power. Rand could not even seize saidin every time he tried until Asmodean taught him. Considering his upcoming battles, Asmodean's teachings saved his butt. And, to demonstrate how this relates to the Moiraine argument, it goes to her motive, or lack thereof. He was chained, and she knew it as prophecy fulfilled.

 

Do you think the prophecy means something else? Or that Moiraine didnt understand it after it happened? Or that she just chose to disregard it? It has to be one of those three.

[RobertAlexWillis]

By the way, when she wanted Rand to go to war in Illian to fulfill what she thought the prophecy meant, she wanted him to CHAIN Sammael. Not kill him. To fulfill prophecy. That demonstrates a willingness to hold a Forsaken captive in order to fulfill prophecy. Which nullifies her motive for killing based ONLY on the fact that he was Forsaken. If she was willing to hold Sammael, why not Asmodean, especially when she knew that he was chained solidly.