one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK ... I'm not going to take the time to quote Rand and Lan's entire conversation in Fading Words in The Fires of Heaven. Suffice to say that Lan consistently refers to Moiraine as dead. He is sure she is dead, because he felt the bond transfer, and it was set to transfer when Moiraine died. When Lan meets Nynaeve again in Ebou Dar, he explains to her about the "changes" that take place in a Warder's Aes Sedai dies. He is describing himself. Clearly, whatever happened to Moiraine, as far as the bond is concerned, it was the equivalent of her death. The only other phenomenon that severs the tie in that way is being stilled. Voluntarily passing it does not have the same effect. A good thing too, since Nynaeve intends to have Myrelle pass the bond to her.

 

There is absolutely no basis to believe that some other unidentified phenomenon cut the bond AT THAT INSTANT. If it was some kind of punishment from the Eelfinn, at least SOME amount of time would have elapsed. Lan felt the bond break and transfer immediately. And simply being in that world does not affect the bond. The trip through the Aelfinn ter'angreal demonstrates that. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn share a world. Distance does not break the bond. So IF the bond needed a gateway to maintain contact ... which is unlikely, since the Source touches the Wheel everywhere and Finnland is still part of the Wheel ... but even IF that were necessary the worlds are still connected through the Aelfinn ter'angreal. There is no known phenomenon that would do it, other than stilling (always assuming she's not dead, which I don't think she is) and there is no reasonable basis for inferring the existence of some "unknown phenomenon" that mysteriously does just that. If I had raised the question of something else breaking the bond independent of the Moiraine question, everyone would have said "No, only death and stilling breaks it." The only reason to suppose that something else breaks it is to defend your theory on Moiraine, and your theory depends on that supposition. Thats a logical fallacy called circular reasoning. Its like saying "I think x=a, because I think a=x" without independent verification of either statement.

 

There is a mountain of evidence against Moiraine. And there is VERY good evidence here that she can no longer channel. Every theory I've read on her being the killer cites her ability to overwhelm Asmodean being linked to her ability to channel. I agree, if she could channel, and she got her shot, and she wanted to take it, THEN she could have killed Asmodean. But there is evidence against all three points, and the strongest against her being able to channel at all at this point.

 

We have had multiple references in the books to how dangerous it is to use ter'angreal improperly, to even channel the Power around them the wrong way. Whatever Moiraine and Lanfear did, it MELTED the doorway. Is it really reasonable to expect that that simply had no consequence? No, it is not. What are the most commonly cited side effects of misusing ter'angreal? Death and stilling. What breaks the bond? Death and stilling. Moiraine did both. If she's not dead (which I do think she is not) then she is stilled.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Of course Lan is going to think she is dead. He was only told of one event that would transfer his bond to Myrelle. Now that his bond has transfered, the obvious conclusion for him to make is that Moiraine is dead.

 

When I read Lan and Rand's farewell, I don't get the impression that Lan is barely being constrained from senseless vengence. Lan is quite rational and apparently in total acceptance of what happened. He does not even appear to fight against the compulsion. It is hard to accept that his Malkieri and Borderland heritage would accept the transfer so completely as to suppress the suicide rage he should be experiencing. Instead we are told how he was red around the eyes, an indication of weeping and normal human mourning. Maybe Myrelle, also assuming that Moiraine's death severed the bond, has misdiagnosed Lan's condition.

 

Logically, Lan's bond cannot have been cut, so we cannot conclude that Moiriane either died or was stilled. When a Warder's bond transfers from one Aes Sedai to another, even with the death or stilling of the first, an actually severing of the bond cannot occur. If it did, the existing bond would no longer exist and a new bond would have to be established. That would require at least a line of sight between the Warder and his new Aes Sedai. Instead, Lan and Myrelle were simply aware of each other, and conculded Moiraine's death acted as the trigger. Since the bond couldn't have been cut, Lan could not be experiencing the expected rage, and Myrelle must have misdiagnosed his condition. Moiraine told Lan about the death trigger, but there is nothing to say she didn't further modify the bond after her vision in Rhuidean.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It is hard to accept that his Malkieri and Borderland heritage would accept the transfer so completely as to suppress the suicide rage he should be experiencing.

 

The way Moiraine transferred the bond COMPELLED him not to seek revenge.

 

Maybe Myrelle, also assuming that Moiraine's death severed the bond, has misdiagnosed Lan's condition.

 

That is very highly unlikely. Actually, Myrelle could FEEL his symptoms when he got close, and she had felt the same twice before. She is as close as you get to an expert on the subject, and she is convinced that he has "swallowed" her death, the way two of her other Warders had previously with their Aes Sedai. She's felt it before. Why would she mistake it now? For that matter, Lan himself is convinced of it. If he felt no change, don't you think it would make him suspicious that Moiraine was not dead? But he describes the change to Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords. The pertinent chapters are A Morning of Victory and Mashiara.

 

When a Warder's bond transfers from one Aes Sedai to another, even with the death or stilling of the first, an actually severing of the bond cannot occur. If it did, the existing bond would no longer exist and a new bond would have to be established. That would require at least a line of sight between the Warder and his new Aes Sedai.

 

Not if the weaves were set in advance, when there was a line of sight. And we know Moiraine did this, because she said she did, in The Great Hunt, chapter 22, Watchers. She set it up to protect Lan if she died. If it required line of sight, how was she going to do that? Lan's self diagnosis, Moiraine's intentions, and Myrelle's expert disgnosis after the fact aren't ALL wrong.

 

Logically, Lan's bond cannot have been cut, so we cannot conclude that Moiriane either died or was stilled.

 

Thats a bald assumption. Why not? Are you saying it is impossible that Moiraine was stilled by the ter'angreal? What basis do you have for saying that? Moiraine had altered the bond to pass if she even if she were KILLED, so obviously stilling would not prevent it from working. In fact, it would take something that drastic to trigger it, just passing through a gate wouldn't do it. If it wasn't being stilled, what do you think shifted the bond?

 

Instead we are told how he was red around the eyes, an indication of weeping and normal human mourning.

 

Lan, the stone-faced man who never shows emotion, showing it like a normal human? He must have been .... oh I don't know, maybe DYING inside to have shown that much.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Concidering he had dedicated the last 20 or so years of his life to her and then, such a slight indication of what the loss meant is quite impressive. To have such control that only a little redness around the eyes remains is more than impressive, it is incredible.

 

You make the same mistake that the Aes Sedai repeatedly do. You look only at what is known, and make a conclusion without looking at what isn't known. Myrelle and Lan made their conclusions on what they thought to be true, not what they knew to be true.

 

Are you saying it is impossible that Moiraine was stilled by the ter'angreal?

Did I say that? Let me think...

 

Logically, Lan's bond cannot have been cut, so we cannot conclude that Moiriane either died or was stilled.

 

Nope, didn't think so. Saying the transfer of the bond isn't proof that Moiraine was either stilled or killed isn't the same as saying that she couldn't have been killed or stilled. No where in the statement does it even imply that either happenning was impossible.

 

Thats a bald assumption.

As far as assumptions go, it is no balder than your statement, "Death and stilling. What breaks the bond? Death and stilling. Moiraine did both. If she's not dead (which I do think she is not) then she is stilled." You are assuming the bond was broken because Lan and Myrelle think Moiraine is dead. You don't consider the implications of the bond breaking. You love to claim your arguments are so logically conclusive, yet you fail to look at things from more than one perspective and disregard any points that don't fit your pre-determined conclusion. That isn't using logic. You can use logic to test a hypothesis, but when the evidence proves the hypothesis wrong, you must form a new one. You don't throw out the facts and keep the flawed conclusion.

 

The number one fact concerning the Lan's bond is that it transfered to Myrelle. Lan and Myrelle only knew of one trigger for the transfer, so that simple fact was enough to make both conclude that Moiraine was dead. That conclusion would inevitably color their judgement. As a reader with more information available, you shouldn't let it color yours as well. Furthermore, the situation is not the same as that with two of Myrelle's other Warders. They were Warders for whom the bond was truly severed by death. They were also Warder's that somehow failed to succumb to suicidal tendencies. If they had, Myrelle would have had a dificult time getting their permission to bond them herself. After all, their bonds did not tranfer automatically. That in itself makes the situation unique. Myrelle's failure to recognize that the situation was unique is a further problem. She is once again making decisions based on what she thinks is true rather than what she knows is true.

 

You say the bond was cut so start there and ask yourself, how the bond transfered intact to Myrelle if it had already been broken?

[Cybertrolloc]

cwestervelt and Jonn: You want to throw out the whole Lan/Nynaeve plus Moiraine's legacy story of the last 5 books? A relationship that was contrived in the early books, but contains some of Jordan's best writing later? You want to rewrite the majority of Lan's character?

 

Post this Moiraine released Lan from his bond and he can't handle it scenario by itself and see how well it does :roll:

[Jonn]

It is a possibility that she was stilled. I'm not certain of that, nor can I be. She's almost definitely not dead. The simple answer is that we do not know her condition at this point other than that.

 

It is interesting that you admit that when dealing with a point that counters your theory, but make loads of bald assumptions when defending your theory. There is more evidence explicit in the books that she was stilled (no more Bond) than that she got her wishes (none).

 

Admit? I admit that there is a possibility. It's not the same as saying that I believe that is what happened.

 

And no, there is no concrete evidence that Moiraine was stilled. Far from it. If she were stilled, chances of her survival are dramatically decreased. Imprisoned in a foreign world, severed with the barest hope that she will escape.

 

If that is the case, there's a good chance that she's already dead just from wasting away without the source.

 

In fact there is strong evidence that she would have transferred Lan's bond to make Rand and Lan believe her to be dead.

 

Her letter to Thom explains this in an implicit manner. If things are to work out to her survival only thom, Mat and the other are even supposed to know that she is alive.

 

Consequently it is in her best interest to release the bond in a bid to fake her death.

 

We know that you can release a warder. That is a definite. It's rarely done, but it's never said that it cannot be done. In fact Nynaeve seems to be counting on the fact once she sees Myrelle.

 

Just because we know that Moiraine made an arrangement with Myrelle, doesn't mean that Moiraine wouldn't release Lan without her getting killed.

 

We also do not know that Lan's reaction was the living in death scenario. Even with the Warder bond, the man has a distinct fatalistic profile. His personal War with the shadow puts him in such a way that he's nearly suicidal even when bonded. It was his vow to stay with Moiraine and help her that kept him from marching off to the Blight and dying.

 

If Moiraine released the bond in some way, the only thing that would keep Lan from marching off to the Blight would be either Nynaeve or the passing of the bond to Myrelle.

 

Look at Lan's reaction after Moiraine disappears. Normally, a blinded rage overtakes a warder when the bond is broken by death. I'll make the assumption that severing would likely result in the same reaction. Lan simply switched his focus and set straight off to find whoever held his bond. No doubt he would be distraght over Moiraine's apparent death, but he didn't go berserk like most warders do.

 

Myrelle, who has seen it twice before, certainly thinks it is. And Lan's reaction was not the normal one for a Warder precisely because Moiraine adjusted the bond to transfer when it was broken, and COMPELLED him to seek out Myrelle.

 

Wait a second. How can a stilled woman Compel anyone? I don't buy that.

 

The simplest explanation is that Myrelle feels the bond pass to her and because she has an arrangement with Moiraine she herself compels Lan to come to her. If a woman is stilled the bond disappears and all adjustments that woman made are gone from all we know. It's up to the woman who has the joint bond to take up managing the adjustments to the bond.

 

I can't see a stilled woman having any say in how the bond is manipulated.

 

So essentially, the scenario you're pushing may in fact be evidence against Moiraine being stilled.

 

At the least, the chances are strong that Moiraine did the easiest thing, which is to simply release the bond.

 

but man ... I honestly don't see any way around this one. Moiraine is stilled, which essentially rids her of the capability to kill Asmodean.

 

Have you no faith in me?

 

In regards to your conclusion, that Moriaine is stilled. That's hardly proven.

 

Even if she is stilled, she could always ask the Eelfinn for the ability to channel. I hardly think that that's necessary as I lean towards Moriaine not being stilled, but her releasing the bond willingly.

[Jonn]

cwestervelt and Jonn: You want to throw out the whole Lan/Nynaeve plus Moiraine's legacy story of the last 5 books? A relationship that was contrived in the early books, but contains some of Jordan's best writing later? You want to rewrite the majority of Lan's character?

 

Post this Moiraine released Lan from his bond and he can't handle it scenario by itself and see how well it does :roll:

 

How is it that it rewrites Lan's character?

 

He's a warder. If his Aes Sedai dies, he goes mad and tries to get himself killed. That or if he's subdued, he just wastes away and lets himself die.

 

If Moiraine releases Lan without passing the bond, he'll immediately go off to the Blight to die. That is entirely separate from the warder bond.

 

Fact is, passing the bond to Myrelle ensures that Lan forgoes his war with the Shadow. The man is bent on dying even though he is married to Nynaeve. He wouldn't allow Nynaeve to bond him either. He would spare her the grief of his death. Without the bond passing to Myrelle, there is no Lan and Nynaeve relationship as we know it.

 

In any case, how does my idea about Moiraine not being stilled change this relationship.

 

Forgive me. I just don't get what you're trying to say.

[Guest cwestervelt]

cwestervelt and Jonn: You want to throw out the whole Lan/Nynaeve plus Moiraine's legacy story of the last 5 books? A relationship that was contrived in the early books, but contains some of Jordan's best writing later? You want to rewrite the majority of Lan's character?

 

Post this Moiraine released Lan from his bond and he can't handle it scenario by itself and see how well it does

 

How does it throw out the Lan/Nynaeve/Moiraine's legacy story? It was a tragic love story from the start. Lan's character is now further darkened by what he sees as a personal failure. Whether Moiraine triggered the passing of the bond voluntarily or not doesn't change that aspect of it. With no way of knowing Lan will still react the same.

 

As my statements are derived from comments made on this post, it was appropriate to post them here. Quite frankly, I really don't care if, after taking time to reflect, you cannot accept the idea based on your interpretation of the books. So far though, you do not appear to have shown even a willingness to consider the possibility or what I am saying. That is your loss as I cannot force you to think about the implications. All I can do is reinterate the question I asked before in what is obviously a vain attempt at enlightening you.

 

How did Lan's bond transfer to Myrelle if it had already been severed by Moiraine's death or stilling?

[Guest Egwene]

:D 300 votes cast

:( no additional ones for Moiraine *hears Graendal's fav sniggering in the back :evil: *

:roll: considering a Moiraine is stilled scenario...

 

I think it is a valid point that Moiraine might have been stilled. Especially if you consider that this would fit in with a possible future with Thom.

 

However... she is supposed to be there at the last Battle. Wouldn't it make more sense to have her at full strength?

.

[MsDanya]

*snickers in the background*

 

it would seem to make more sense to have Moiraine at full strength in the Last Battle. but she did have otehr strengths as well, specially when it comes to Rand and to some degrees Mat and Perrin too..

 

but Graendal still killed Asmo.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How did Lan's bond transfer to Myrelle if it had already been severed by Moiraine's death or stilling?

 

Moiraine arranged for that to happen in THE GREAT HUNT. She arranged it IN ADVANCE WHEN SHE WAS NOT STILLED. She ALTERED the bond so that when it was broken with HER, it would TRANSFER to Myrelle. Read that chapter, and you tell me what you think she meant. (Watchers, chapter 22, The Great Hunt.)

 

Moiraine says she altered the bond to auto-transfer. She was planning for her possible death. Why would she make an arrangement would not work after she died? It is the same as tying off a flow. RJ specifically said that a tied off flow would not dissipate just because the channeler who made it died. So we know that there are ways to channel that will remain in effect after a person dies. It is beyond belief to suggest that something designed to function after death would no function because of being stilled.

 

And no, there is no concrete evidence that Moiraine was stilled. Far from it. If she were stilled, chances of her survival are dramatically decreased. Imprisoned in a foreign world, severed with the barest hope that she will escape.

 

If that is the case, there's a good chance that she's already dead just from wasting away without the source.

 

Considering how strong-willed Moiraine is, she would survive if anyone can. Siuan and Leane both survived stilling. Moiraine kicks both of their butts for strength of will, in my opinion. And she knows there is the possibility of rescue.

 

We know that you can release a warder. That is a definite. It's rarely done, but it's never said that it cannot be done. In fact Nynaeve seems to be counting on the fact once she sees Myrelle.

 

But consciously moving the bond does not cause the "living death" effect in the Warder. Lan is suffering from this. Failing to admit that is simply closing your ears and going "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING." Every single POV in the books that deals with Lan subsequently specifically mentions his ALTERED STATE since Moiraine's death. Myrelle is NOT basing her just on assumptions, she can FEEL HIM INSIDE HER HEAD.

 

(Is my frustration showing?)

 

Wait a second. How can a stilled woman Compel anyone? I don't buy that.

 

She can Compel him by creating the flow before she is stilled. As Moiraine specifically did. Read the above-mentioned chapter in The Great Hunt.

 

I can't see a stilled woman having any say in how the bond is manipulated.

 

So essentially, the scenario you're pushing may in fact be evidence against Moiraine being stilled.

 

.... dancing and waving my hands in the air ....

 

She did it before she was stilled. Channelers can set things in motion that come to fruition after they are dead/stilled.

 

 

 

Have you no faith in me?

 

Since you ask, no ... you and logic seem not to be talking at the moment.

 

Nope, didn't think so. Saying the transfer of the bond isn't proof that Moiraine was either stilled or killed isn't the same as saying that she couldn't have been killed or stilled. No where in the statement does it even imply that either happenning was impossible.

 

Yes, it is, because those are the situations in which Moiraine arranged for her bond to be passed. READ THE GREAT HUNT.

 

The number one fact concerning the Lan's bond is that it transfered to Myrelle. Lan and Myrelle only knew of one trigger for the transfer, so that simple fact was enough to make both conclude that Moiraine was dead. That conclusion would inevitably color their judgement.

 

Moiraine couldn't arrange another trigger without Myrelle's cooperation, since she would have had to weave it into Myrelle, and Myrelle could have seen what she was weaving.

 

They were Warders for whom the bond was truly severed by death. They were also Warder's that somehow failed to succumb to suicidal tendencies. If they had, Myrelle would have had a dificult time getting their permission to bond them herself. After all, their bonds did not tranfer automatically. That in itself makes the situation unique. Myrelle's failure to recognize that the situation was unique is a further problem. She is once again making decisions based on what she thinks is true rather than what she knows is true.

 

Actually, Myrelle's "failure" to recognize a difference in their situations lends strength to my argument. It feels exactly the same in her head. Also, people unconnected with the situation have noticed an external difference in Lan. Nynaeve thought to herself that she saw death in his eyes. That she made specific note of it means that it was not the same as what was there before. Finally, LAN knows whats happening in his own head. He is convinced that Moiraine is dead, not captured, because he FELT the "walking death" syndrome take effect in him.

 

You say the bond was cut so start there and ask yourself, how the bond transfered intact to Myrelle if it had already been broken?

 

Because that's precisely what Moiraine said would happen. Watchers. Great Hunt.

[RobertAlexWillis]

.... taking a deep breath ....

 

 

Not that I expect either of you to buy it.

[Jonn]

.... taking a deep breath ....

 

 

Not that I expect either of you to buy it.

 

The problem is that we don't know that she was stilled. It's never mentioned or implied by anything we know from the books.

 

The arrangement she made was in order for the bond to pass if she died. We don't know exactly what happens if she is stilled. It's a moot point because we cannot be sure se was stilled.

 

So essentially, I don't have to buy anything in this case.

 

You can't prove that she was stilled.

 

I believe releasing the bond to sell her death fits her profile better anyhow.

[Paradoxic]

It is implied that she is stilled by what happens to her warder bond. However, we can also make two additional alternative assumptions; 1) She died and 2) The door's destruction cut the bond just as if she had died.

 

We lack any additional proof to choose which of those three options is the true one.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's never mentioned or implied by anything we know from the books.

 

It is implied by the effect we have seen in Lan. All your theories are ignoring the observed effect in Lan, which is a matter of record in the books. It is implied by the WAY in which the bond was switched. A bond which was triggered to switch at death, as you point out. Stilling is an equivalent change to death, as far as the channeler's current ability is concerned, and weaves set to trigger at death would be triggered by stilling. And yes, I know stilling is different than death in that it can be Healed, but until it is Healed, it is an equivalent change in EFFECT.

 

1) She died and 2) The door's destruction cut the bond just as if she had died.

 

We have evidence against one of those options.

 

1) Moiraine's letter to Thom, and the viewing that Min thinks failed, are both solid indications that Moiraine is alive, and in duress, a captive of the Eelfinn.

 

As to the door's destruction cutting the bond, I agree that it did. It cut the bond (triggering Moiraine's pre-set transfer) by stilling Moiraine. There is no other method of cutting the bond even hinted at in the books. Simply being in the Eelfinn world would not cut the bond, since it did not cut the bond when Moiraine visited the Aelfinn in the Stone of Tear, and the Aelfinn and Eelfinn live in the same world. And the worlds are still connected, at least by that one ter'angreal. Distance alone does not sever the bond. While there may be some amazing new method of cutting the bond revealed in future books ... although only one in the main series is coming ... until we SEE it, the only current methods SEEN have to be considered as the most likely, especially when one of those is easily possible (stilling is frequently mentioned as a consequence of channeling the wrong way around ter'angreal). Yes, many of the things that Aes Sedai believe cannot be done, have been done. That doesn't mean they're wrong about EVERYTHING. Especially not something they INVENTED, like the Warder Bond.

 

By the way, Jonn, you say we have seen no evidence in the books that Moiraine was stilled? Not only is that incorrect (we have seen the effect in LAN, an effect we know can be caused by stilling), but by that logic, we have seen no evidence that she ISN'T stilled either. We haven't seen any evidence other than she is probably alive, and a captive. Your entire theory on Moiraine being the executioner of Asmodean is based on extrapolation and convoluted supposition, combining a series of unlikely and unsubstantiated events into a string that doesn't really benefit the supposed author of that string. Please don't lecture me on logic. I have taken a number of courses on both mathematical symbolic logic and philosophical logic. I got A's in those courses, incidentally. I know what logic is, and both your basic premises, and your routes to conclusion are flawed. The fact that you don't acknowledge it doesn't affect reality (or in this case, fantasy reality).

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, and going WAY back to MsDanya's comment, as soon as she is out, and hooked back up with Rand, she can be Healed back to full strength by an Asha'man.

[Jonn]

It's never mentioned or implied by anything we know from the books.

 

It is implied by the effect we have seen in Lan. All your theories are ignoring the observed effect in Lan, which is a matter of record in the books. It is implied by the WAY in which the bond was switched. A bond which was triggered to switch at death, as you point out. Stilling is an equivalent change to death, as far as the channeler's current ability is concerned, and weaves set to trigger at death would be triggered by stilling. And yes, I know stilling is different than death in that it can be Healed, but until it is Healed, it is an equivalent change in EFFECT.

 

I'm sorry, I don't ignore anything. I address every point seriously and offer an answer if I can.

 

Look, here it is. If you can't prove she is dead, she isn't dead.

 

If you can't prove she is stilled, she probably isn't stilled either.

 

Lan's reaction is one of a warder whose bond has been passed to another. He may think that Moiraine is dead, but is that true? Chances are that he's never had his bond passed before. Chances are that he's never had an Aes Sedai that he's boneded to, die on him. There is a good chance that Myrelle hasn't had a bond passed to her before, either.

 

It's mentioned that passing a bond is VERY rare. So I can't see that Myrelle would be able to tell the difference between simply being given the bond and the bond passing to her because the other Aes Sedai died.

 

Is it possible that Moiraine died? Yes. Is it possible that she was stilled? Again, yes. Is it proven? That's the problem.

 

What we can prove is that Lan's bond has been passed to Myrelle. That is all.

 

There are several possibilities in which this can happen. One of them involves not being stilled.

 

Moiraine could have released the bond.

 

There's no evidence against that, so it's just as likely that she can still channel as it is likely that she is still alive.

 

If you can't accept that possibility, well, I guess you've already decided and your bias won't allow you to see any of my points anyhow. Too bad for you, because this is where our conversation stops moving if that's true.

 

I don't feel you've in any way stopped my arguments. In fact, you've already accepted the danger to your theory if Moiraine is alive and able to channel. It's a given that you are going to do everything you can to deny that she can channel as it is pretty much a sure thing that she's alive.

 

You couldn't bust the letter as strong evidence for her case, so now you're fixated on her being stilled.

 

That's understandable. Too bad you can't prove she's been stilled. And you know, you won't be able to prove it until we actually see her again in the story. We'll just have to wait on that.

 

I'm not saying that it's an impossibility that she is. I'm saying that it's unproven.

 

If you're going to base your entire point on a single unproven element, you'll find that you're going to be quite frustrated by the fact that none of what you are saying is sticking.

 

Graendal's case is weak because there should be no obstacles for her to be determined the killer, except the simple fact that she has been ommited as the killer in the text when there is no reason to omit that information.

 

To omit Moiraine makes sense because it requires the mystery. The timing of her rescue is key and it ruins it to have concrete evidence that she is alive too soon after she is out of the picture.

 

There's a good reason the Moiraine theory hasn't gone away. It's very difficult to completely eliminate her from the running. So, don't take it personally if you don't accomplish the feat in your first few weeks of trying on this message board.

[Jonn]

By the way, Jonn, you say we have seen no evidence in the books that Moiraine was stilled? Not only is that incorrect (we have seen the effect in LAN, an effect we know can be caused by stilling), but by that logic, we have seen no evidence that she ISN'T stilled either.

 

There you go. What's so hard about that?

Her being stilled is unproven. That's all I was saying.

 

We haven't seen any evidence other than she is probably alive, and a captive. Your entire theory on Moiraine being the executioner of Asmodean is based on extrapolation and convoluted supposition, combining a series of unlikely and unsubstantiated events into a string that doesn't really benefit the supposed author of that string. Please don't lecture me on logic. I have taken a number of courses on both mathematical symbolic logic and philosophical logic. I got A's in those courses, incidentally. I know what logic is, and both your basic premises, and your routes to conclusion are flawed. The fact that you don't acknowledge it doesn't affect reality (or in this case, fantasy reality).

 

LOL! :lol:

 

I'm sorry...I just had to go back to this.

 

LOL You took a class and got an 'A' in it? That makes you right? lol

 

Well then, pardon me Mr. 'A' student, master of all logic. I should learn to keep my mouth shut, or in this case my fingers off the keyboard, since your credentials are obviously far superior to mine.

 

You know, I took an art class once and got an 'A'. I think that makes me an authority on art. Rembrandt was a hack and all of his paintings should be burnt. Who else is with me? Come on, I got an 'A' in studio painting...My monochromatic acrylic portrait of an nude, aging hippie got rave reviews in my 3:30 class.

 

If you honestly think I'm not going to call you on the sheer pompousity of your last paragraph...LOL :shock: :lol:

 

I just find it funny that you're comparing my convoluted theory with your convoluted theory and actually thinking you somehow have an airtight case.

 

Consider this my friend:

 

I do this strictly for fun. It's fun because I'm a fan and I get off on arguing and theorizing about certain things.

 

The moment I start whipping out diplomas and certificates and rulers to start measuring, is when it's become too egotistical for me. Damm me for being rude, but I'm not subtle enough to let someone else go off on me like that without outright laughing in their face...well symbolically through text at least. So here you go. HAAAAAAAA!HA!

[havoc110]

RAW, how come you don't acknowledge that Moiraine could possible have just released the bond.

 

It has never been proven/disproven that the bond can just be voluntarily released. Although unspecific mention has been made about Warders being saved when the AS dies (and some type of release).

 

Encyclopedia WOT says release is possible (giving no text source unfortunately, just Q&A from Tor Website, and it is not there currently), though no specific instance (save perhaps this one) has been made in the WOT text. WOTFAQ has an article with all points on both sides of the "released Bond" issue.

 

Note that the bond was transferred not in TGH, but before EoTW, although both times would be before the doorway at Tear and the rings in Rhuidean. So the transfer was arranged a long time ago. But then Moiraine gains knowledge that she might have a prolonged stay in Finnland, at least until Thom, Mat, and some other guy attempt a rescue.

 

So the last thing Moiraine would want at this point is for Lan to be stuck in Finnland jail with her. So if she knows how to release, she releases Lan. Lan feels the bond with Myrelle, and the bond with Moiraine gone, and assumes she's dead. And we're all pretty sure she's not dead.

 

And there is a time in TDR chapter 7 when Moriaine makes a half-joking threat to Lan to send him on to Myrelle at that point.

 

So I believe that it was a release, and that may have the same effect since the bond was passed, and that it does not automatically indicate death or stilling.

[Gurney]

This is the thread that never ends

Yes, it goes on and on my friends

Some people started asking it not knowing who it was

And now they'll keep debating it forever just because...

[Graendals favourite]

no additional ones for Moiraine *hears Graendal's fav sniggering in the back *

The rumble you hear is not that of traffic, nor is it distant thunder... :twisted: :lol: :twisted: Mwahahahaa...

All know laughter is good for the health.

 

 

On a side note, I've never understood the argument that something should be something because it would make a preferable story. As if that should be of any significance to what is in the books, or anywhere. We are not writing the books, after all, but RJ is. Of course, each reader reads his own story, but to say that something happened in the books because of that only, I don't understand that. Besides, all arguments that require post-FoH knowledge are weak by definition, since this can be figured out without it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW, how come you don't acknowledge that Moiraine could possible have just released the bond.

 

It has never been proven/disproven that the bond can just be voluntarily released. Although unspecific mention has been made about Warders being saved when the AS dies (and some type of release).

 

The bond can be released. I've stated that, and more importantly, so has Jordan. The effect on LAN is what indicated that it was forcibly snapped and transferred. He suffers from Warder "living-death" syndrome, which is caused by having the bond forcibly broken. Normally this causes the Warder to basically go berserk and die avenging or trying to avenge his Aes Sedai. But Moiraine altered the bond with him, so that when it was broken, either by her death or something else, that it would shift to Myrelle automatically, and Lan would be Compelled to find her. That is precisely what happened. That is NOT the result when a bond is "transferred" between living, non-stilled channelers. That sort of transfer can only take place when the two Sisters are close enough to see each other, and results in no side effects on the Warder. This is evidenced in the text of the books by Myrelle's intent to transfer Lan's bond to Nynaeve, as soon as she sees her. Also, the Sister can simply release the Warder, which also avoids the "living-death" effect. I'm not sure why you don't trust the WOTmania posting of the interview ... especially since it fits the textual clues in the books perfectly. Lan's reaction, confirmed by subsequent descriptions and observations, are the clinching clue to Moiraine's state.

 

Look, if this discussion were happening in another context, I don't think there would be this resistance. It's just that people who like Moiraine and think it would be cool if she managed to find an interesting way to kill Asmodean don't like to accept things that indicate otherwise. Since being stilled would seriously crimp Moiraine's ability to off even a partially shielded Forsaken, Moiraine supporters don't even wish to consider it. The objections to this have been startlingly weak, and not consistent with the text. I may be a pompous arrogant jerk, but I am willing to admit when I'm proven wrong. I've done it in other threads, if you don't believe me. But this has become one of the most ironclad cases I've argued in here.

 

And there is a time in TDR chapter 7 when Moriaine makes a half-joking threat to Lan to send him on to Myrelle at that point.

 

The fact that she can choose to trigger it if she wants to doesn't mean anything. Of COURSE she can trigger it herself if she wants to. But she was alot less than half-serious there. And again, the "living-death" syndrome is the key.

 

I'm sorry...I just had to go back to this.

 

LOL You took a class and got an 'A' in it? That makes you right? lol

 

Well then, pardon me Mr. 'A' student, master of all logic. I should learn to keep my mouth shut, or in this case my fingers off the keyboard, since your credentials are obviously far superior to mine.

 

You know, I took an art class once and got an 'A'. I think that makes me an authority on art. Rembrandt was a hack and all of his paintings should be burnt. Who else is with me? Come on, I got an 'A' in studio painting...My monochromatic acrylic portrait of an nude, aging hippie got rave reviews in my 3:30 class.

 

If you honestly think I'm not going to call you on the sheer pompousity of your last paragraph...LOL

 

Incidentally, Jonn, my statements were made in direct response to your attempts to lecture me on how to use logic ........ right here

 

You are assuming the bond was broken because Lan and Myrelle think Moiraine is dead. You don't consider the implications of the bond breaking. You love to claim your arguments are so logically conclusive, yet you fail to look at things from more than one perspective and disregard any points that don't fit your pre-determined conclusion. That isn't using logic. You can use logic to test a hypothesis, but when the evidence proves the hypothesis wrong, you must form a new one. You don't throw out the facts and keep the flawed conclusion.

 

So, there seems to be enough pomposity to go around. You questioned my understanding of logic, I responded by explaining to you why I know that I understand logic. You claimed that I fail to look at things from more than one perspective. But you don't know what goes on in my head. Actually, when I started participating in this thread, I had no conclusion as to who had done it. I was surprised that Moiraine was considered, so I looked at the case being made, checked and cross checked the points in the books and online references to Jordan's statements, and after that, decided that I didn't believe it. The same process with Graendal led me to believe that she did it. So, I'll thank you not to tell me what is going on in my head, and what I did or did not consider.

 

I just find it funny that you're comparing my convoluted theory with your convoluted theory and actually thinking you somehow have an airtight case.

 

My theory on Graendal is not convoluted. I summarized it in three lines more than once. My disputation of YOUR theory on Moiraine is convoluted, because I have to thread my objections through your convoluted theory.

 

I do this strictly for fun. It's fun because I'm a fan and I get off on arguing and theorizing about certain things.

 

The moment I start whipping out diplomas and certificates and rulers to start measuring, is when it's become too egotistical for me. Damm me for being rude, but I'm not subtle enough to let someone else go off on me like that without outright laughing in their face...well symbolically through text at least. So here you go. HAAAAAAAA!HA!

 

Your motivations have no bearing on the validity of your arguments. And your laughing is amusing. Usually, when people realize, consciously or not, that their position is untenable, they resort to some form of name calling or other derogatory behavior.

 

:lol: How's that for pompous?

 

In any case, nothing short of Jordan publishing "Moiraine was stilled and Graendal did it." will convince you. So, I will now stop trying. I've more than said my piece, and have obviously become annoying while doing so, therefore I will leave the rest of you in peace to cheer my departure. Maybe we'll be lucky and things will be made clear in the last book.

[Guest Egwene]

You are not going to stay away any longer than one or two of the rest of us who've said that in the past, RobertAlex.. lol. It's addictive... and fun after all. And, let's face it... you would miss us

.

[havoc110]

well RAW, at least you took us in a new direction for a while.

 

It's an interesting theory, but I don't buy it. I still buy that Graendal did it, and don't need Moiraine having been stilled to corroborate it. Probably you do not need a stilled Moiraine to validate your theory either, although I'm sure it helps.

 

I do think you are choosing to overlook the uniqueness of the situation however. Look at the first red doorway and how the bond reacted, normally. How old do you suppose the doorways are? I would venture to guess "real old". How many times has one of them been reduced to slag when two people simultaneously go through. Exactly once.

 

In summary, it's a unique occurence, and as such might produce unique results, which may or may not conform to the everyday rules of Randland. (oh and Jonn and CW, this is known as driving home the critical point).

[Jonn]

RAW, how come you don't acknowledge that Moiraine could possible have just released the bond.

 

It has never been proven/disproven that the bond can just be voluntarily released. Although unspecific mention has been made about Warders being saved when the AS dies (and some type of release).

 

The bond can be released. I've stated that, and more importantly, so has Jordan. The effect on LAN is what indicated that it was forcibly snapped and transferred. He suffers from Warder "living-death" syndrome, which is caused by having the bond forcibly broken. Normally this causes the Warder to basically go berserk and die avenging or trying to avenge his Aes Sedai. But Moiraine altered the bond with him, so that when it was broken, either by her death or something else, that it would shift to Myrelle automatically, and Lan would be Compelled to find her. That is precisely what happened. That is NOT the result when a bond is "transferred" between living, non-stilled channelers. That sort of transfer can only take place when the two Sisters are close enough to see each other, and results in no side effects on the Warder. This is evidenced in the text of the books by Myrelle's intent to transfer Lan's bond to Nynaeve, as soon as she sees her. Also, the Sister can simply release the Warder, which also avoids the "living-death" effect. I'm not sure why you don't trust the WOTmania posting of the interview ... especially since it fits the textual clues in the books perfectly. Lan's reaction, confirmed by subsequent descriptions and observations, are the clinching clue to Moiraine's state.

 

Look, if this discussion were happening in another context, I don't think there would be this resistance. It's just that people who like Moiraine and think it would be cool if she managed to find an interesting way to kill Asmodean don't like to accept things that indicate otherwise. Since being stilled would seriously crimp Moiraine's ability to off even a partially shielded Forsaken, Moiraine supporters don't even wish to consider it. The objections to this have been startlingly weak, and not consistent with the text. I may be a pompous arrogant jerk, but I am willing to admit when I'm proven wrong. I've done it in other threads, if you don't believe me. But this has become one of the most ironclad cases I've argued in here.

 

If this is your idea of an iron-clad case...

 

Look, even non-Moiraine theorists aren't buying your rationale here. Havoc and I couldn't be further from partners on any issue having to do with Asmo's death. Still, he can see that it's possible that Moiraine wasn't stilled.

 

It's the same as me saying that it's possible that she was.

 

What you're trying to say is that no one should believe that she wasn't stilled. Look, you can't tell people what they should believe on the grounds that you are personally more logical in your reasoning.

 

THAT is where you'll generate the most resistance.

 

Anyhow, Lan's living death syndrome...Could it be that you may have just mistaken his state? He has dedicated 20 years of his life to following Moiraine around, trusting her that her will is the one that will lead him in his true desire, to seek suicidal vengeance on the Shadow.

 

She goes through a doorway with one of the most powerful Forsaken, and the doorway melts. His bond passes to Myrelle...after 20 years, Moiraine, his companion, is gone. What does he say? "She's gone." Now he finds that even after her apparent death...he's not free. He has to seek out another to be bound to, again postponing his suicide charge into the Blight. He doesn't know how he'll be treated, what is in store for him. All he knows is that he cannot deviate. He must seek her out. If he charges off and gets hinmself killed, he'll no doubt harm Myrelle. That's unlikely that he'd be willing to do that. He's a borderlander. He'd likely rather take a dagger wound than hurt an innocent woman. So, he's stuck in a quandry here. There is no choice. Rightfully, He's probably just very depressed at that point. The woman he swore to protect with his life, he failed to do so. Now, he's been passed on to a woman he doesn't know, and his code of ethics says that he should obey. It may well be that he never gets to make his charge into the Blight while bound to her.

 

And there is a time in TDR chapter 7 when Moriaine makes a half-joking threat to Lan to send him on to Myrelle at that point.

 

The fact that she can choose to trigger it if she wants to doesn't mean anything. Of COURSE she can trigger it herself if she wants to. But she was alot less than half-serious there. And again, the "living-death" syndrome is the key.

 

Again, living death sounds a lot like deep depression. The rage we see when the Aes Sedai got killed during Elayne's raid in Knife of Dreams. The descriptions of the warders' reactions in Lord of Chaos when Rand broke free from his prison, killing and severing several Aes Sedai..The typical reaction was a period of immediate, blinding rage and a rabid desire to attack and kill everything in their path.

 

That's quite opposed to Lan's reaction. Sure his bond had passed, but the fact is that he didn't display the classic symptoms of a warder whose Aes Sedai was killed or severed. If the symptoms are not present for such cases, you cannot definitively assign the afflictions of death or severing with any surety.

 

I'm sorry...I just had to go back to this.

 

LOL You took a class and got an 'A' in it? That makes you right? lol

 

Well then, pardon me Mr. 'A' student, master of all logic. I should learn to keep my mouth shut, or in this case my fingers off the keyboard, since your credentials are obviously far superior to mine.

 

You know, I took an art class once and got an 'A'. I think that makes me an authority on art. Rembrandt was a hack and all of his paintings should be burnt. Who else is with me? Come on, I got an 'A' in studio painting...My monochromatic acrylic portrait of an nude, aging hippie got rave reviews in my 3:30 class.

 

If you honestly think I'm not going to call you on the sheer pompousity of your last paragraph...LOL

 

Incidentally, Jonn, my statements were made in direct response to your attempts to lecture me on how to use logic ........ right here

 

You are assuming the bond was broken because Lan and Myrelle think Moiraine is dead. You don't consider the implications of the bond breaking. You love to claim your arguments are so logically conclusive, yet you fail to look at things from more than one perspective and disregard any points that don't fit your pre-determined conclusion. That isn't using logic. You can use logic to test a hypothesis, but when the evidence proves the hypothesis wrong, you must form a new one. You don't throw out the facts and keep the flawed conclusion.

 

So, there seems to be enough pomposity to go around. You questioned my understanding of logic, I responded by explaining to you why I know that I understand logic. You claimed that I fail to look at things from more than one perspective. But you don't know what goes on in my head. Actually, when I started participating in this thread, I had no conclusion as to who had done it. I was surprised that Moiraine was considered, so I looked at the case being made, checked and cross checked the points in the books and online references to Jordan's statements, and after that, decided that I didn't believe it. The same process with Graendal led me to believe that she did it. So, I'll thank you not to tell me what is going on in my head, and what I did or did not consider.

 

Actually, that wasn't me. That was cwest... :?:

 

So there you go.

 

It's easy to be mistaken about things when you are too hasty to make a judgement.

 

So, you checked references and reveiwed points and dadada- Most of us have. It doesn't mean that you're correct.

 

What is this, like, the second time you've put your foot in your mouth in response to me? Something tells me that you're taking this a little too personally.

 

I just find it funny that you're comparing my convoluted theory with your convoluted theory and actually thinking you somehow have an airtight case.

 

My theory on Graendal is not convoluted. I summarized it in three lines more than once. My disputation of YOUR theory on Moiraine is convoluted, because I have to thread my objections through your convoluted theory.

 

Oh, and your little fanfic documentation of the missing Graendal POV doesn't count as convoluted fare? If her case is so airtight and uncomplicated, why do we need to pose a fake POV that doesn't exist? All that told me by the way was that Graendal shouldn't have a POV of her doing the deed, but at least a simple admission or mention of it besides the fact. It doesn't take much. How many POV's has she had after the murder? All it takes is a couple lines mentioning the killing directly in her thoughts. 6 books later and there is none. That doesn't look very good, as there is no reason to omit the information other than that she didn't do it.

 

Every other on screen candidate has had opportunity to reveal themselves in an offhand manner. It wouldn't have been a big deal. Still, it hasn't happened. The only major candidate we haven't seen is of course Moiraine. Her revelation would justify not revealing what is supposed to be a minor issue.

 

I do this strictly for fun. It's fun because I'm a fan and I get off on arguing and theorizing about certain things.

 

The moment I start whipping out diplomas and certificates and rulers to start measuring, is when it's become too egotistical for me. Damm me for being rude, but I'm not subtle enough to let someone else go off on me like that without outright laughing in their face...well symbolically through text at least. So here you go. HAAAAAAAA!HA!

 

Your motivations have no bearing on the validity of your arguments. And your laughing is amusing. Usually, when people realize, consciously or not, that their position is untenable, they resort to some form of name calling or other derogatory behavior.

 

:lol: How's that for pompous?

 

In any case, nothing short of Jordan publishing "Moiraine was stilled and Graendal did it." will convince you. So, I will now stop trying. I've more than said my piece, and have obviously become annoying while doing so, therefore I will leave the rest of you in peace to cheer my departure. Maybe we'll be lucky and things will be made clear in the last book.

 

 

Guess what, I laugh when things are funny. That's when I laugh.

 

People start talking about what courses they took in college and their credentials, basically reverting to a penile-measurement contest, that usually denotes insecurity. And such an obtuse reaction as yours was, could only lead me to do one thing in response, and that was to laugh.

 

As my rugby coach would say, "You're trying too hard, son." Relax. Take a breath. We're not debating the war on terrorism here. Motivation, contrary to what you believe, is rather key to these types of debates. The killer's motivation, the victim's motivation, the author's motivation. And so, justly, we also analyze the debater's motivation.

 

We have a deep mix of fact, fiction and speculation as the ingredients for this issue to debate. What a fine dish it is. It's hard to be totally conclusive prior to the verdict given by the Author, so just ease back on the throttle a bit. You'll wear yourself out.