Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)


Guest Egwene

spigots or caudrens  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28

This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

Here's where the previous dealing with the Aelfinn can be instructive. Mat, Rand and Moiraine all went into the doorway there at separate times. They never saw each other and the only indication that anyone else was there at the same time was the effect of two ta'veren in the realm at the same time.

 

Thing is, they came out of the doorway in a relatively reasonable amount of time and almost on top of one another at that.

 

This is an indication to me that the laws of time and space are very flexible and that is evident to any reader who has read about that encounter in Tear, Portal Stones, The Ways or Tel'Aran'Rhiod. So this isn't a case of readers making things up or not understanding the concepts of warped existence in the novels. This is established thematically from the beginning of the series.

 

It should be no surprise that time works differently in different instances when using these ter'angreal and entering these alternate worlds.

 

The math, in other words, is unnecessary.

 

Now let me quote myself ... as you quoted me.

 

If the time differential is NOT the same (which is entirely possible, since they did not experience a large time difference from the ter'angreal in Tear) then we have no basis to establish a time line. Since RJ said all the necessary clues were there, and knowing how much time Moiraine (or anyone) had is essential to placing them at the murder scene, both Mat's timescale and a flexible timescale disqualify Moiraine.

 

I covered the episode with Aelfinn ter'angreal in Tear specifically. If there is a fluctuating timeline (which I said was "entirely possible") then NO timeline can be constructed, therefore we have no basis with which to say Moiraine could or could not be there. That is weaker than Graendal's case, where we KNOW she COULD be there.

 

I've basically discarded RJ's statement here.

 

The author is canon.

 

Mat's experience is directly contrary to this statement, and I pay ultimate heed to what is in the books. Statements from outside can be taken out of context and misinterpreted.

 

Events in the book can be misunderstood too. Mat's experience of being sent out of the Eelfinn's world does not involve them using their power in the outside world. What they do is the equivalent of opening a door from the inside of their own world, and pushing the exitee through it, into a specific location. Just as you can push someone through a door without putting any part of yourself through it, they can send someone out. That is a far different ability from reaching out through a door you open and pulling someone or something back in. If they could do that, they wouldn't have to wait for people to come to them to rummage through their memories. Since they DO have to wait, they can't reach out.

 

She admits that she knew who he was, what he was...and she said that she cannot approve...but understands. This is pretty much saying that she forgives Rand in his need for a teacher, but it also says that she cannot approve .

What, pray, does that mean?

 

She says, "I cannot approve wholly." (The Fires of Heaven, Fading Words, p.901) What that means, is that she would rather have found another way, but that she CAN approve IN PART, because, as her next sentence says, "Perhaps it was the only way." Moiraine had been reassessing Rand's plans and abilities, and had concluded that he must "dance free." When they first met, she was sure that she would have to guide Rand's every step. But often, when he moved a way she did not wish (which was every chance he got) it turned out better than her plan. He went to Falme when she sent him to Illian, and it worked out better. He went to Tear when she wanted him to stay on Almoth Plain, and he obtained Callandor and a nation. He went to Rhuidean when she wanted him to attack Illian and emerged with an unmatchable Aiel army. She had learned to help him with HIS plans, rather than try to guide him. As she said "We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did." Once did, not still try to do. She knew Asmodean was on a leash of some kind. Depriving Rand of the only teacher available HURT his chances of even reaching, much less winning, the Last Battle. (That's why it was Graendal's motive)

 

The entire trap with Lanfear at the docks was so elaborate, so complex...it's actually kind of hard to see how even Moiraine was able to pull it off.

 

Now, a woman who can plan and execute such a trap so perfectly...You really think making a bargain with the Eelfinn is going to daunt her when it comes to accomplishing her life's goal?

 

She was able to execute the trap with Lanfear because she SAW IT ALL IN ADVANCE IN THE RINGS OF RHUIDEAN. She could not have planned a trap for Asmodean the same way, because, "You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you." (The Fires of Heaven, Fading Words, p.900) That one small thing is the possibility of Mat, Thom, and Noal coming to rescue her. It cannot be the murder of Asmodean, because for good or ill, that does concern Rand. And I don't think Moiraine was DAUNTED. I think she believed Rand could handle Asmodean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Allow me to add an english language lesson here. There is a difference between having and "effect" on the outside world, and being able to "affect" the outside world. The verb "affect" (which is what Robert Jordan used in his statement on the Eelfinn's abilities and limitations) means "to act upon". The noun "effect" means a result or consequence. It is entirely possible to "affect" something in one place to cause an "effect" in another. So by "affect"ing Mat in their own world, they caused the "effect" of him appearing in the outside world. They would not, however, be able to "affect" a person in the outside world in such a way as to produce the "effect" of transporting them into Finn-land.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt
Musenge: Moirainne's letter excludes her from being Asmodeans killer. Why would she warn Rand to be wary of somebody she was going to kill?

 

Moiraine's letter to Rand was written without knowledge of events beyond the Docks. As a result, the content of the letter cannot be used to disprove her involvement in any actions that occurred after she went through the Doorway. Therefore, she is not warning Rand to be wary of somebody she knows she is going to kill.

 

The letter tells us Moiraine knew the dock scene had to happen precisely, or everyone was doomed. She knew that she could not act before hand, because it would risk breaking her vision. She didn't know if she would be able to act afterwards. She states she only knew one thing that would happen later and that it didn't concern Rand. She knew she wasn't going to die so that is most likely her eventual rescue by Thom and Mat. She didn't know that she, or anyone else, would kill Asmodean so her warning Rand to be careful of him cannot be said to eliminate her as the killer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I view the letter as supporting evidence, not the main evidence against Moiraine. The timing, lack of motive (I know, I know, she hates all Forsaken. She's also smart enough to pump Darkfriends for information if they are safely leashed (see the Black Ajah in the Stone of Tear). That is what Rand is doing), and her current presence with the Eelfinn are the primary arguments against her.

 

I want everyone to understand ... I think Moiraine is a GENIUS. She is unflappable, stalwart, has TRUE humility (by which I mean she is willing to admit when she is wrong and learn from mistakes)courageous, by all accounts gorgeous (like 90 percent of the women in Randland) and an all around great person. I just don't think she killed Asmodean. I think she was too SMART to kill Asmodean.

 

Let me add another point.

 

Look, it all works chronologically. Mat goes through the doorway and comes out with more abilities, though at a price. We see the gain and the price paid.

 

Moiraine goes through the same doorway...Can we not expect the same parameters to apply?

 

They did not go through the doorway in the same way. Mat was not channeling in such a way that the doorway was destroyed. The purpose of the Eelfinn's "ancient treaty" was to bring people through the ter'angreal into their realm, to exchange a bargained price for 3 "wishes". It is possible, even likely that destroying that entrance violated the treaty, and that the "same parameters" would NOT apply. We don't know for a fact that the "devices for making light", "instruments of music", and "iron" are the ONLY provisions of the treaty. The 'Finn greeters wouldn't have to ask "did you destroy the gate on your way in?" since they could see the answer for themselves. And it wouldn't be included as a cheat code in the Snakes and Foxes game rhyme, since cheating that way apparently gets you killed (Lanfear) or imprisoned (Moiraine). We don't even KNOW that Moiraine got three "wishes". And ANY "Moiraine is the killer" theory depends on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moirainne's letter excludes her from being Asmodeans killer. Why would she warn Rand to be wary of somebody she was going to kill?

 

Because she could not be sure she would kill him.

 

Certain things seen in the Rings MUST happen. Others things are not a certainty. She said she saw every possibility of what may happen in her life's path, but a lot of those memories fade until only what is truly necessary remains.

 

For example, she may have succeeded in taking out Lanfear and then again, maybe Lanfear would kill her in the opening moments of the confrontation...Maybe she kills Asmodean, or maybe she dies after taking Lanfear through the doorway.

 

Whatever happens, she leaves that letter and it covers what needs covering, including her possible failure to kill Asmodean.

 

If she succeeded, then it is likely a justification for her acting on or affecting the outcome of things, namely killing Rand's first real teacher.

 

She's not likely to outright say that she's going to kill Asmodean. It would tip Rand off and he'd, out of stubborness, would try to protect Asmodean even more.

 

Should they meet again, what she put in her letter to Rand would make sense. It serves as both a warning about Asmodean anda justification for her killing the man should she get the opportunity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not backwards. We know that the Eelfin are powerful from Mat's encounter. Moiraine disappeared through the same doorway as Mat.

 

How hard is it to come to a conclusion from that situation?

 

It's simple to me.

 

Of course it's simple, since you want it to be Moiraine, you ignore everything that points against her. Everything is simple when you use that kind of reasoning.

 

Look, it all works chronologically. Mat goes through the doorway and comes out with more abilities, though at a price. We see the gain and the price paid.

 

Moiraine goes through the same doorway...Can we not expect the same parameters to apply?

 

No, we can't apply the same parameters. Mat entered in a proper way, and was allowed to leave. Moiraine entered bringing a forsaken with her, and destroyed the doorway in the process. We Know she's held as a prisoner instead of being allowed to leave. The circumstances regarding Moiraine makes it uncertain if she ever was allowed to make any wishes, if she even knew that's what the Eelfinn does.

 

And if the same parameters are to be applied, then the parameter timeline should also be applied, which makes it impossible for Moiraine to have enough time to make it.

 

RJ writes the death of Asmodean in a certain way. He reminds us of Lanfear, and thus her disappearance through that doorway. Who else went through that doorway?

 

The scene, in fact, has us thinking about certain people who have recently disappeared through a doorway (Lanfear and Moiraine by connection) then Asmodean opens a doorway and himself disappears.

 

By mentioning Lanfear he also reminds us that any forsaken would kill him on sight.

 

We all know the reason she disappeared was to eliminate Lanfear, the baddest baddie besides Ishamael.

 

That could have been accomplished without her disappearing.

 

Nope. Removing Asmodean is important. If it wasn't important, why mention him in her letter at all? If she really wasn't concerned with Asmodean, why impress anything upon Rand regarding him? She had limited time and room to say what she needed to say. So it is fair to say that she said all she NEEDED to say in that letter. She needed to say something about Asmodean. Ask why.

 

Why?

 

If she did fail to kill Asmodean (which she might have forseen in the rings of Rhuidean), there is an open-ended warning to Rand about Asmodean in her letter. If she did not fail (which I suspect) there is a justification to her actions in that she knew what Asmodean really was and acknowledged it.

 

Removing Asmo is important for the storyline, not for the characters in the story.

Moiraine also mentions Verin in her letter, should we expect her to pop out of thin air and kill her too? I mean, it's in that Oh so important letter. Moiraine doesn't trust Verin, Aha! Verin is bad, and must die.

 

Of course she warns Rand to not trust Asmo completely. She doesn't know that Rand will turn into MR I'm-Big&Macho-Trusting-Noone. She knows she will be gone for a very long time, and makes sure to remind Rand about the danger Asmo Might pose if Rand doesn't pay attention.

If she had known that she might get a chance at killing Asmo, she would have let Rand know, one way or another. If she couldn't do it in the letter, she would at least have left a body so Rand would have known that Asmo was dead, and not plotting from the shadows to get revenge.

 

I stand by my statement. A Great White is a Great White. Or as Siuan would say, A silverpike is a silverpike.

 

Considering that he's being kept as a pet, Asmo is rather a goldfish than a Great White. A very angry goldfish, but not a big threat as long as you keep an eye on him.

 

Asmodean wouldn't be alert for someone who was supposed to be dead. He'd be shocked first to see them, and never equate Moiraine with a person he has to kill on sight.

 

Oh really? A man who knows the most dangerous people in the world are out to get him would not be alert for anything out of the ordinary? Especially in a world where they have a little thing known as Mask Of Mirrors?

 

Which actually explains why Asmodean was unable to defend himself.

 

If he saw one of the Forsaken in the doorway, however weak he was, wouldn't he lash out to defend himself immediately?

 

Seeing Moiraine there would stall him, frighten him as he is looking at a dead person, and finally in his shock he wouldn't be able to defend himself when Moiraine raises her hand to zap him.

 

How would he defend himself against someone able to shield him? Break the shield with his great strength? Oh wait, he's not very strong at that point, is he?

 

Sammael was more than competent in a tactical sense. He is one of the strongest around in the One Power. His specialty was defense. He was expecting anything and everything to attack him at the time of Asmodean's death. Remember...the plan was for Rand to attack Illian. Sammael was on his guard for anything coming his way

 

Sammael was on his guard for a man attacking him, probably a woman as well. However, if that little "finnteleport" existed, he would not get any warning until Moiraine zapped him. You don't think he would be shocked? If the finns could locate someone so exactly as they would have needed in Asmo's case, it would have been a piece of cake to drop her off behind his back so he wouldn't even see her before he got toasted.

 

Let's stop right here. I don't think Moiraine would ever tolerate one of the Forsaken to remain in Rand's confidence. Whatever the arrangement.

 

Funny, that's exactly what she did. We don't know when she found out who Asmo was, but it should have been quite some time before the docks, since she feels comfortable to take it as an absolute truth, and not just a suspicion.

 

Or do you suggest Moiraine is so arrogant that she thinks that she would have a better chance against Asmo than rand, so Asmo can't be allowed to be around without her watching him? Odd change of heart, if she could allow Asmo to go and fight another forsaken with Asmo by his side. If Asmo ever was to turn against Rand, what better time than during a fight where Asmos turning would have helped another forsaken?

 

What? The palace is not some place he's familiar with. How would he know the difference between one room and a room in the Finn realm? It only takes a second or so before he sees the murderer, so it's not like he was fixated on what the room looked like beyond the door he opened. He opened the door, and saw someone that stopped him dead...literally. The focus is the person, not the room

 

Have you even read Mat's visit to the Eelfinn? It doesn't look anything like our world. It could not possibly be a room in the palace.

 

There is a difference between hanging someone and throwing them out of a doorway dead.

 

You have to drag him out, put the noose around his neck, put a foreign object (the ashanderai) in the branches of Avendesora, string his body up and then leave.

 

That's no minor thing to do.

 

Putting the nose around his neck and attaching it to the ashanderai could very well have been done in their world. Their entire action in our world would be: Walk out, carry Mat to the tree, put the Ashanderai across two fitting branches, and go back home. That is a quite minor thing to do.

 

What do I have to imagine to place Graendal in Moiraine's stead? A lot. It's all speculation, and if you wanted to go to court on that, you'd have no more luck than I would Maj.

 

Yes, lets see what we have to imagine in Graendals case. Motive? Nope, got that. Means to kill him quickly? Got that. Means to get in and out quickly and without being detected? Check.

 

Which leaves a motive for her to be in the palace, and how she could be behind that door at that time.

 

Compare that to Moiraine, where you have to imagine the finns having two abilities we have never seen, we have to imagine Moiraine first knowing about the wishes, and then actually getting to make her wishes despite the way she entered. Imagining Moiraine wasting a wish to kill Asmo, instead of wishing for herself to be allowed to leave, and kill him in the real world instead. Etc...

 

Besides, what you just demonstrated was not imagination. It's called nonsense.

 

It's a demonstration of the way you invent evidence for Moraine.

 

Now that is entirely imaginary. You have RJ looking at an Agatha Cristie novel and him basing Asmodean's death off of that just to amuse himself.

 

Gee, instead of writing something that makes sense, I'm going to create a dead end in the narrative just as an inside joke.

 

So, instead of amusing himself he should just have wrote "Asmo opened the door, and saw X. X killed him and left. The end."

 

You're falling in the same trap as the taimandred gang once did. A rather common thought among them seemed to be that anyone acting a bit weird must be someone else in disguise.

It was important to remove Asmo from the story, but absolutely not necessarily of any significance for the story after FOH.

 

What tells you that no one can see how people gain abilities in these novels?

 

It happens all of the time. There are dozens of examples. There are a lot of people doing what is supposed to be improbable if not impossible.

 

If you can change a pawn into a queen, what's to say you can't sacrifice a bishop to move that pawn into position to become a queen instead.

 

Same basic premise. You exchanged a bishop for a queen.

 

There's more than one way to do something. That's the theme here.

 

Of course it happens all the time. But it happens right in front of our eyes, we see it happen, and we get if not an immidiate full explanation, at least enough clues to see that it is logical.

 

In Moiraines case, all new abilities would have been introduced offscreen, and yet RJ expects us to use these hidden parameters to figure out what happened.

 

It doesn't work that way.

 

They're not the Eelfin are they. The Aelfin see the future and tell true answers. They don't grant requests or actually do anything, besides taste your soul and tell you things. I don't imagine that they do anything as extensive as what the Eelfin do. So, I don't see your example as applicable.

 

So you have no problems imagining the Eelfinn being propped with a bunch of whacko abilities, but the poor Aelfinn get nothing except the ability to speak in riddles? What have they ever done to yoù?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's where the previous dealing with the Aelfinn can be instructive. Mat' date=' Rand and Moiraine all went into the doorway there at separate times. They never saw each other and the only indication that anyone else was there at the same time was the effect of two ta'veren in the realm at the same time.

 

Thing is, they came out of the doorway in a relatively reasonable amount of time and almost on top of one another at that.

 

This is an indication to me that the laws of time and space are very flexible and that is evident to any reader who has read about that encounter in Tear, Portal Stones, The Ways or Tel'Aran'Rhiod. So this isn't a case of readers making things up or not understanding the concepts of warped existence in the novels. This is established thematically from the beginning of the series.

 

It should be no surprise that time works differently in different instances when using these ter'angreal and entering these alternate worlds.

 

The math, in other words, is unnecessary.

[/quote']

 

Now let me quote myself ... as you quoted me.

 

If the time differential is NOT the same (which is entirely possible, since they did not experience a large time difference from the ter'angreal in Tear) then we have no basis to establish a time line. Since RJ said all the necessary clues were there, and knowing how much time Moiraine (or anyone) had is essential to placing them at the murder scene, both Mat's timescale and a flexible timescale disqualify Moiraine.

 

I covered the episode with Aelfinn ter'angreal in Tear specifically. If there is a fluctuating timeline (which I said was "entirely possible") then NO timeline can be constructed, therefore we have no basis with which to say Moiraine could or could not be there. That is weaker than Graendal's case, where we KNOW she COULD be there.

 

A timeline is rendered moot by the time fluctuation. That's the point.

It's not necessary so long as it is acceptable that time can move in a relatively normal fashion as is given in the Tear example.

 

Moiraine can fit in the timeline so long as the event occurred after her disappearance.

 

I've basically discarded RJ's statement here.

 

The author is canon.

 

So is his work. What is printed has the final say. Anything said outside of the novels can be taken out of context, or misinterpreted, or can be subject to change.

His comment is at odds with what he has written. In the end I look at the books as opposed to something he said at the spur of the moment. He can always change his mind about what he said to someone in an interview or as a public comment.

 

You can't change the print of the book.

 

Mat's experience is directly contrary to this statement, and I pay ultimate heed to what is in the books. Statements from outside can be taken out of context and misinterpreted.

 

Events in the book can be misunderstood too. Mat's experience of being sent out of the Eelfinn's world does not involve them using their power in the outside world. What they do is the equivalent of opening a door from the inside of their own world, and pushing the exitee through it, into a specific location.

 

Yes, hanging from a rope off of Avendesora and an Ashanderai weapon. That's a little more involved than shoving someone out of a door, actually.

 

Just as you can push someone through a door without putting any part of yourself through it, they can send someone out. That is a far different ability from reaching out through a door you open and pulling someone or something back in. If they could do that, they wouldn't have to wait for people to come to them to rummage through their memories. Since they DO have to wait, they can't reach out.

 

What part of them needed to reach out to hang Mat from a tree? That's some feat. If they did it from their end of the door, that actually speaks in favor of their abilities to affect the outside world rather than against it.

 

That's a pretty elaborate trick to manufacture given that they are restricted in such a way as you suggest.

 

She admits that she knew who he was, what he was...and she said that she cannot approve...but understands. This is pretty much saying that she forgives Rand in his need for a teacher, but it also says that she cannot approve .

What, pray, does that mean?

 

She says, "I cannot approve wholly." (The Fires of Heaven, Fading Words, p.901) What that means, is that she would rather have found another way, but that she CAN approve IN PART, because, as her next sentence says, "Perhaps it was the only way." Moiraine had been reassessing Rand's plans and abilities, and had concluded that he must "dance free." When they first met, she was sure that she would have to guide Rand's every step. But often, when he moved a way she did not wish (which was every chance he got) it turned out better than her plan. He went to Falme when she sent him to Illian, and it worked out better. He went to Tear when she wanted him to stay on Almoth Plain, and he obtained Callandor and a nation. He went to Rhuidean when she wanted him to attack Illian and emerged with an unmatchable Aiel army. She had learned to help him with HIS plans, rather than try to guide him. As she said "We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did." Once did, not still try to do. She knew Asmodean was on a leash of some kind. Depriving Rand of the only teacher available HURT his chances of even reaching, much less winning, the Last Battle. (That's why it was Graendal's motive)

 

There's an end to all of this argument over what she means and what she may intend to mean.

 

She's Aes Sedai. All of these "perhaps"s, and "I cannot approve wholly". These slight turns of phrase can mean lots of things. The thing that remains unproven in these statements is...

 

Does any of it exclude her from being able to kill Asmodean?

 

No.

 

My point was that she mentions Asmodean for a reason.

Whether it's a warning or an admission that she knows what Rand is up to...

 

She mentions Asmodean, so that is an indication that she was thinking about him, and when an Aes Sedai is thinking about you...you best beware, because you never know where you're going to end up once she puts thought to action.

 

The entire trap with Lanfear at the docks was so elaborate, so complex...it's actually kind of hard to see how even Moiraine was able to pull it off.

 

Now, a woman who can plan and execute such a trap so perfectly...You really think making a bargain with the Eelfinn is going to daunt her when it comes to accomplishing her life's goal?

 

She was able to execute the trap with Lanfear because she SAW IT ALL IN ADVANCE IN THE RINGS OF RHUIDEAN. She could not have planned a trap for Asmodean the same way, because, "You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you." (The Fires of Heaven, Fading Words, p.900) That one small thing is the possibility of Mat, Thom, and Noal coming to rescue her. It cannot be the murder of Asmodean, because for good or ill, that does concern Rand. And I don't think Moiraine was DAUNTED. I think she believed Rand could handle Asmodean.

 

Moiraine being daunted was a rhetorical statement about her ability.

 

Her confrontation with Lanfear was the event that she HAD to accomplish at all costs. It was THE task that she must accomplish.

 

When she came back from Rhuidean she remarked that the memories of her experience fade. What she knows is what she knows because it happens in every vision she saw in the Rings. The words she used was she doesn't "know" what happens in the world after. She can't know these things not only because she is going to be out of the world for a while. She can't "know" these things because it may just turn out differently from what she saw depending on a lot of factors.

 

Again, it's another common misinterpretation of her letter to Rand. It has been clearly pointed out in Knife of Dreams that she saw things beyond the docks. She just isn't sure these things will happen with any certainty. She can't know what happened, because nothing is for sure after that event with Lanfear.

 

There is only one thing that she can be sure of, and that event has or should have nothing to do with Rand. Chances are though that this is her rescue, or not...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me first of all mention that, to my knowledge, no one has shot down, the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Graendal the best candidate.

 

Now ...

 

A timeline is rendered moot by the time fluctuation. That's the point.

It's not necessary so long as it is acceptable that time can move in a relatively normal fashion as is given in the Tear example.

 

My point included the following statement, which you quoted ... "If the time differential is NOT the same (which is entirely possible, since they did not experience a large time difference from the ter'angreal in Tear) then we have no basis to establish a time line. Since RJ said all the necessary clues were there, and knowing how much time Moiraine (or anyone) had is essential to placing them at the murder scene, both Mat's timescale and a flexible timescale disqualify Moiraine." I have thereby acknowledged what you said as accurate. The point is that without a timeline, WE HAVE NO BASIS TO PUT MOIRAINE ANYWHERE. An ABSENCE of evidence is not evidence in her favor. Except the place she is now. A captive of the Eelfinn.

 

 

 

So is his work. What is printed has the final say. Anything said outside of the novels can be taken out of context, or misinterpreted, or can be subject to change.

His comment is at odds with what he has written. In the end I look at the books as opposed to something he said at the spur of the moment. He can always change his mind about what he said to someone in an interview or as a public comment.

 

You can't change the print of the book.

 

No, his comment is NOT at odds with what is written. You simply don't wish to interpret it in any way that doesn't conform to your theory. And since we don't know the method by which the expel people from their realm, we have no cause to believe that it is any more difficult for them to put someone comfortably standing in the middle of their bedroom than inside a noose attached to a tree. The example of pushing someone out of a door was an illustration of a principle, using abilities that we humans have, to demonstrate that it is possible to AFFECT something in one place, causing an EFFECT in another. The Eelfinn have the ability to AFFECT Mat while he is in their own world, in such a way that it causes the EFFECT of him to appearing in the outside world, hung by the neck, with his medallion and ashandarei. Please re-read my post on the difference between "Affect" and "Effect". Understanding that concept is crucial to understanding how RJ's statement is in FULL HARMONY with the published books. And how it makes Moiraine an unlikely candidate for Asmodean-killer.

 

 

There's an end to all of this argument over what she means and what she may intend to mean.

 

She's Aes Sedai. All of these "perhaps"s, and "I cannot approve wholly". These slight turns of phrase can mean lots of things. The thing that remains unproven in these statements is...

 

I already said I view her attitudes as expressed in the letter as merely supportive. If there were no other evidence against her, the letter would, by itself be insufficient to disqualify her. It does, however, make more sense in light of the fact that it wasn't Moiraine.

 

My point was that she mentions Asmodean for a reason.

Whether it's a warning or an admission that she knows what Rand is up to...

 

She mentions Asmodean, so that is an indication that she was thinking about him, and when an Aes Sedai is thinking about you...you best beware, because you never know where you're going to end up once she puts thought to action.

 

Moiraine does not kill everyone she thinks about. Thats simply ridiculous dramatization, not evidence.

 

Again, it's another common misinterpretation of her letter to Rand. It has been clearly pointed out in Knife of Dreams that she saw things beyond the docks. She just isn't sure these things will happen with any certainty. She can't know what happened, because nothing is for sure after that event with Lanfear.

 

No, not "things", ONE thing, about which she is not sure, that is, her rescue. We know it is her rescue because of her letter to Thom. One thing, which matches her specific statement in the letter.

 

Besides which, you missed my whole point. Your point was that she was able to plan her assault on Lanfear, and that therefore she would have been able to plan her assault on Asmodean. My counterpoint was that she had a script for her assault on Lanfear, and none for a possible assault on Asmodean, therefore her ability to plan one did not support her ability to plan the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me first of all mention that, to my knowledge, no one has shot down, the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Graendal the best candidate.

 

Funny that, Robert Alex,... I was about to *g*

 

One very good reason against Graendal and in favour of Moiraine (or Lanfear)is given by Maj:

 

Yes, lets see what we have to imagine in Graendals case. Motive? Nope, got that. Means to kill him quickly? Got that. Means to get in and out quickly and without being detected? Check.

 

Which leaves a motive for her to be in the palace, and how she could be behind that door at that time.

 

Compare that to Moiraine, where you have to imagine the finns having two abilities we have never seen, we have to imagine Moiraine first knowing about the wishes, and then actually getting to make her wishes despite the way she entered. Imagining Moiraine wasting a wish to kill Asmo, instead of wishing for herself to be allowed to leave, and kill him in the real world instead. Etc...

 

Tell me, Graendal supporters... why on earth should this whole topic be RAFO if it was Graendal??? You have to start inventing motives here for RJ. He gives an RAFO, if the answer compromises storylines yet to be written... all these books... and tons of stuff involving Graendal... and that storyline which was the reason for RAFO still has not appeared. How do you explain that?

 

Moiraine... well... I don't think I need to say more.. RAFO... obviously 8)

 

and Maj... you saying 'Of course it's simple, since you want it to be Moiraine, you ignore everything that points against her. Everything is simple when you use that kind of reasoning.' ... I think this applys to you in equal meassures. You keep repeating your missinterpretations of what those of us that support Moiraine as the killer believe has happened. 'Imagining Moiraine wasting a wish to kill Asmo, instead of wishing for herself to be allowed to leave' Moiraine did not in my opinion wish to kill Asmo. She may have wasted a wish, but to connect those two is your idea. I have given plenty of reasons why wishing herself out would have been totally out of character.

 

What does the Moiraine opposition call their 'she did not get three wishes' scenario? Is that not total imagination? A lot of the arguments against Moiraine seem to me to need imagination.

 

And what do you guys have against off-scene happenings being included in the deliberations? They are a vital ingredient of dozens of other plotlines... why should RJ not have made use of this writers tool in this case,too?

 

Graendal may not need as much imagination... she also does not warrant an RAFO. There have been plenty of other RAFO's... many of which have since been resolved. I see no need for this one to still be around if it was Graendal. And please... don't say... because RJ likes to see us squirm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tell me, Graendal supporters... why on earth should this whole topic be RAFO if it was Graendal???

 

Because Robert Jordan finds the speculation entertaining. And creating a mystery is good publicity. The fact that Jordan said he wasn't going to tell us is no rebuttal of any of the facts of the story.

 

His positive statements, however, support the Graendal case.

 

What does the Moiraine opposition call their 'she did not get three wishes' scenario? Is that not total imagination? A lot of the arguments against Moiraine seem to me to need imagination.

 

What evidence do you have that she did? Imagining that her wishes were voided for destroying the ter'angreal connecting Eelfinn world to Randland is not unreasonable. What was the basis of the treaty? That people would come in through the ter'angreal, and bargain for their wishes. If there is no ter'angreal, how can there remain a treaty? No treaty, no wishes. That is simple, and reasonable. And there is nothing in the stories to disprove it. And the fact that Lanfear died and Moiraine is a prisoner supports it.

 

Graendal may not need as much imagination... she also does not warrant an RAFO

 

Robert Jordan RAFO'd whether or not forkroot works on men. He RAFO'd the requirements for being raised to the shawl. He RAFO'd whether Ogier can be Darkfriends. None of these would be SHOCKING ANSWERS. He RAFO'd whether or not GAREN'S WALL would play a role. He RAFO's for kicks. He laughs with his RAFO's. He RAFO's everything from the truly significant to the utterly ridiculous. If you were out to dinner with him, and asked him what he got off the menu, he'd hand it to you and say "Read And Find Out." The fact that Graendal does not, in your opinion, warrant a RAFO changes none of the facts of their relative cases, leaving Graendal's the stronger by far.

 

It is interesting that you can't point to anything in the story that makes it less likely that she did it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt
Egwene: Tell me, Graendal supporters... why on earth should this whole topic be RAFO if it was Graendal???

 

RobertAlexWillis: Because Robert Jordan finds the speculation entertaining. And creating a mystery is good publicity. The fact that Jordan said he wasn't going to tell us is no rebuttal of any of the facts of the story.

 

Implying that an author, any author, would resort to such a gimic to attempt to generate an audience is demeaning both to the reader and the author himself. Especially when the author doesn't need the publicity and has a significant established fan base. Treating your readers that way is a good way to find yourself without any readers.

 

Additionally, distorting an author's statements to suite personal theories shows little respect for the author and his work. Jordan has said he would tell who killed Asmodean. This will either be at an appropriate place in the final book or at some time after the final book's publication. That doesn't indicate an unwillingness to reveal the truth, but concern that revealing the truth will reveal to much of another story line.

 

You list a large number of RAFO's that Jordan has made as simply being a way for Jordan to amuse himself. Again you are belittling both Jordan and his readers. Please don't be so insulting. With the scope of the series, there is almost guaranteed to be a significant number of plot lines that got left out or abreviated during editing. Without knowing what plots will make it into a finished work, anything that even has the possibility of touching one is deserving of a RAFO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually that is a good point. Unless Moiraine is rescued in the nick of time and whisked to where the team needs to be (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Min, Eg, Ny, Lan, Moiraine) at the end (yawn), I can't think of any circumstances where it wouldn't come out if she were the killer--knowing if Asmo is going to be around (who's stronger than all but the strongest Ashamen and more knowledgeable than any 3rd ager) is rather important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What evidence do you have that she did? Imagining that her wishes were voided for destroying the ter'angreal connecting Eelfinn world to Randland is not unreasonable. What was the basis of the treaty? That people would come in through the ter'angreal, and bargain for their wishes. If there is no ter'angreal, how can there remain a treaty? No treaty, no wishes. That is simple, and reasonable. And there is nothing in the stories to disprove it. And the fact that Lanfear died and Moiraine is a prisoner supports it.

 

Robert Alex... I don't have evidence Moirane did it... YOU don't have EVIDENCE that Graendal did it.

 

Imagining the wishes were voided is just as reasonable as imagining that they were not. The consequences of just what it means in practise, to bring in a forbidden item or destroying a doorway are, after all, only imagined... are they not?! Or did you have a private letter from the Foxes informing you that they had indeed ended the treaty?

 

Why Lanfear died and why Moiraine is a prisoner are for reasons that have to be imagined. By you the same as me. Hmm, now why isn't Moiraine dead... maybe all that stuff about breaking the treaty is not as clear cut as you make it out to be????!

 

Yes, RJ finds the speculation entertaining, but I imagine... (I so prefer to use this word than confuse it with 'irrefutable evidence' as some people seem want to do)... the reason for his first RAFO on this topic was unlikely to be based on long running speculation as... well... the question had not been speculated about much, yet. He has also stated that his main reason for RAFO are the desire not to spoil a potential plotline. All the examples you have mentioned have a high likelyhood to turn up in the next book.

 

**Forkroot for men... with all the Ashamen about and the knowledge of this little trick spreading amongst the Aes Sedai

**requirements for the shawl... with the unusual raising of the girls, this is obviously a topic that will come up between tower and rebels

**Ogier and darkfriends... again... obviously could play a part in the next book... especially as we have not as yet met that many of them... however, we know there are more accross the ocean

 

It is interesting that you can't point to anything in the story that makes it less likely that she did it.

Let me first of all mention that, to my knowledge, no one has shot down, the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Graendal the best candidate.

 

It is interesting that all you Graendal fans are happy to ignore pages of a theory, which is

 

--totally plausible (if you stop and consider for a minute)

--based on the precedent set by Mat (my edition happens to be printed black on white)

--has no factual evidence to eliminate it (where did I hear this one before *g*)

--can easily be followed step by step... no unsurmountable gaps (oh, didn't you say you still have a few open questions about Graendal? Maybe a convoluted route to the pantry??!)

--is a far more lucrative option to exploit as an author (don't forget, at that stage, RJ did not yet have to do battle with impatient readers)

--keeps a major player in the story even off stage (Graendal, you said?..aahh... sure I have met her before... somewhere..)

 

Anyway... what this whole post boils down to is this:

 

Graendal is a suspect

Moiraine is a suspect

 

Neither one nor the other has irrefutable evidence for or against her. I am happy to discuss on that basis. Both sides rely on imagination and personal gut feelings. How people can shoot down a hypothesis on the basis that is is one... and in the same breath bring forward a ... hypothesis... is that not somewhat having double standards?

 

My money is on Moiraine... her scenario is the one that I would have chosen, if I was the author. And nothing anyone sofar has put forward has 'shot down, the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Moiraine the best candidate' in my eyes.

 

Quits, I say. :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the main reason graendal is so popular is not all the evidence for her but for the lack of evidence against her.for me she is the candidtate due to the (although acknowledgably not certain) evidence against everyone else.i have read past pages of theory and still cannot see how you can satisfactorly explain how moraine killed asmo,and is now captive.and i don't see how moraine can be called into the "intuivitly obvious" factor no matter how losely you use the term.

 

and as for lanfear dying and moraine not?well lanfear said that she was also captive of the finns,my guess is she tried to escape,or killed herself in the knowledge she would be recycled(though i seriously doubt the second).i do not think they would be have wishes granted due to the fact that they came with fire.

 

so it is the lack of evidence against graendal that makes her the most likely killer in my eyes,not the irrefutable evidence for her

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And nothing anyone sofar has put forward has 'shot down' date=' the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Moiraine the best candidate' in my eyes.[/quote']

Perhaps if you were to actually post your non-convoluted, simple and obvious fact-based theory :roll: My Asmo hating-channeler-Narg theory fits your criteria too, and is certainly cooler than Moraine-dunnit ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we all may be missing something regarding human interaction with the Eelfinn. It doesn't seem to me that the Eelfinn actually "grant wishes", such as "I want to kill Asmo" but rather that they give the requestor something that they "need" in return for a "price" that is negotiated.

 

From the paperpback of TSR p. 399:

 

"No!...You must not go. Come. I will take you where you may find what you need. Come....

 

Or p. 402

 

Speak...By the ancient treaty, here is agreement made. What is your need. Speak.

 

Take Mat for example:

 

He said that he wanted to be free of Aes Sedai - so they gave him the medallion.

 

He said he wanted the holes in his memory filled - so they gave him the memories they had collected to fill the gaps.

 

He said he wanted to be away from them (the Eelfinn) and back in Rhuidean, but did not negotiate the price - so they answered his need, just not in the way he expected.

 

Where the Ashandrie (sp?) and the "joke" fit in to all of this, I'm not sure, but that's really beside the point. My point is that if Moiraine said "I'm afraid the Asmodean is a danger to Rand, he needs to die" they're more likely to have given her something that would allow her to do that than actually set her in place to do it herself, then yanked her back by the scruff of her neck, as it were. How would they even get her to Camelyn in the first place? When Mat went though, the doorway was in Rhuidean so it conceivably woudn't be too hard for them get him back there. However, after the fight on the docks, the doorway doesn't even exist anymore so how would they reach all the way from the Tower of Ghenji to Caemlyn to place her there at exactly the right time? It just seems too much of a stretch to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt
He said he wanted to be away from them (the Eelfinn) and back in Rhuidean, but did not negotiate the price - so they answered his need, just not in the way he expected.

 

That, by the way, is the most likely reason Lanfear was killed. The Finn won't let you go until your dealings are complete, so once there, she had to make a bargain. Having no way of paying, the Eelfinn set the price and killed her. That also provides the most likely reason Moiraine is still captive and not also dead. She has no way to pay and so has been wise enough not to attempt to conclude her negotiations.

 

Now, before anyone gets on the Shadow + Finn = Immediate Death train again, let me remind you that nowhere in the books is that stated. The statement is, "Most importantly, questions touching the Shadow have dire consequences." Dire consequences not death. Possible options would be serious maiming, insanity, eternal captivity, or maybe stilling, which, from Moiraine's perspective, would be the direst of consequences. Much worse than being killed. Even that strictire was later proven to be something Moiraine believed to be true but was not a concrete fact. Rand successfully asked questions concerning Tarmon Gai'don and how to remove the Taint from Saidin. Both of them touched on the Shadow. And there is Mat's direct mention of the Shadow by stating, "The Shadow take your souls, loose me!" Moiraine was able to say it because she believed it to be an absolute. Moreover, that is the Aelfinn and there is nothing to indicate the same being true of the Eelfinn. We got to see Mat's experience with both and they show that the rules are different. Since the rules are different, everything else is questionable too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When i think about it logically Moraine wouldn't have the motive to kill asmo. Why would she do that. She might not approve but he was the only choice to teach rand. Also she had ample opportunity to do so long before her "death"

 

Umm... Moiraine has at least one good reason to kill Asmodean. He's one of the Forsaken. While that hasn't made her do so till that point' date=' there are two possible reasons for waiting till Camelyn:

 

1. She might not have had the ability to do so until that time (which is one of the things she [i']needed[/i] from the 'finns.

 

2. She might have known tht Rand needs him until that point (She herself told him that only a male could teach him), and perhaps - just maybe - one of the things she learned in the rings in Rhuidean was that he (Asmodean) had to die that day, or it would be a major problem for Rand & Co.

 

Remember, while at the begining of TFoH, raising a glass of wine was the extent of his ability, that day in Camelyn, he used the power to fight off Rahvin's forces. Not within the capabilities of such a weakling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cybertrolloc... I have posted my theory several times, in detail.

 

In my theory, Moiraine did not know the exact difference between the Snakes and the Foxes. There were records about the interactions of the Firsts of Mayene with the Snakes. She might have had fragments about the Foxes but I doubt that she knew anywhere near as much about them as she knew about the Snakes.

 

Now put yourself in that situation...

 

Guide: Do you abide by the treaties and agreements? Do you carry iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light?

 

Moiraine: despite that her entry may have melted the doorway... the answer to these questions is still a 'NO'... treaties still stand.

 

Guide: I will take you where you may find what you need. Come....

 

Moiraine: *analysis the meaning of these words...*

 

One of the Foxes: Speak, by the ancient treaty, here is agreement made. What is your need?

 

Moiraine: What is she going to say? We know her answer... she has given it many times before 'I want to fight the shadow and help the Dragon Reborn win the last Battle' ( you could phrase this in many different ways... that is the core of Moiraines purpose in life... any combination of fighting the shadow and helping the Dragon) Moiraine most definately will have stated a need to fight the shadow.

 

Foxes: Done

 

And there you have it. Same as with Mat... the Foxes translate that by their own rulebooks. She is given the opportunity to kill Asmodean. She takes it because she does not know what has happened in the meantime in Randland... and has to assume that killing him will help the Dragon win the last battle as that is the need she stated. Her letter conveniently (purposely?) states that she knows of his true identity, proof that she can kill Asmo without violating her oaths.

 

Moiraine had many visions about the visit to the docks... it is almost certain that one without Asmo in the picture would have led to failure as someone has pointed out previously. Which is why she never did anything about him prior to that day.

 

If there are any conclusions here that are at odds with what we know from the books, please tell me. I have based my theory on what we know about a visit to the Foxes, what we know about Moiraine.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt

This has been explained more than onece on this and other Asmodean threads. She could not take earlier action or the correct future was doomed.

 

destiny477: When i think about it logically Moraine wouldn't have the motive to kill asmo. Why would she do that. She might not approve but he was the only choice to teach rand. Also she had ample opportunity to do so long before her "death"

 

cwestervelt: Here it is again...

 

Moiraine was barred from taking previous action against Asmodean by the visions she was shown in Rhuidean. The scene at the docks needed to play out precisely. Any mistakes, or alterations, and Rand either died, or became Lanfear's love slave.

 

Moiraine knew from her vision in Rhuidean who needed to be present at the docks. There are at least 2 ways we know this to be true. The first is that, prior to going to fetch Rand, she had already requested the necessary horses be saddled. She singles out Mat with a "just in case" type comment, but implicit in the statement is that Asmodean's horse was readied as well. The second reason is the nature of the visions she was show in Rhuidean. We know that they show the results of all decisions that are made, regardless of how unlikey. For those visions to be of any value or accuracy as a guide they would need to show the people present during the event. Moiraine would have been shown Asmodean's presence at the docks. If Asmodean were unable to attend, the scene could not have occurred. That would either make one of the other 2 possibilities a default, or leave everything to random chance. Those are not options Moiraine would have been willing to choose.

 

That Asmodean's presense was required is further evidenced by the fact that Rand was talking to Asmodean, and not Moiraine, when Lanfear blew the wagon to bits.

 

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 52: "Choices"

Quote:

"Well, I mean to find out now. Natael, go tell Bael I'll be with him in--"

 

At the otherend of the line, the side of Kadere's wagon exploded, splinters scything down Aiel and townsfolk.

 

 

We know from her letter to Rand that she only knew one other thing that might happen after the docks, and that it didn't concern Rand. Knife of Dreams reveals that this "one small thing" is most likely her possible rescue by Thom Merillin. She doesn't dare do anything about Asomean before the docks, and she doesn't know that she will be able to anything about him after the docks. All she can do is warn Rand to be careful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Egwene ... it seems a bit more unlikely that entering through a door which you destory on the way in has NO consequences, then to imagine that it would seriously piss off whoever was inside. The "conversation" you have envisioned would have to begin with ... "Ahem ... if you ladies are through? Oh, and someone clean up this melting slag on my nice clean floor. Now now, dearie, don't worry. No lamps? OK then." That just seems .... absurd.

 

I agree that Moiraine is more likely to kill Asmodean after the scene on the docks, because he was in it, and she would not dare tamper with it. I just don't think it was in the top three on her list of things to do. If anything, she would have NEEDED to be WITH Rand, to help him, if not guide him. Thats a catch .22 against her. If she wanted to guide him, being with him would be more important than killing Asmodean. And if she had REALLY decided not to guide him, then killing a teacher he has leashed doesn't fit.

 

cwestervelt: If Moiraine has not concluded her negotiations, how did she get out to do in Asmodean? I agree that Lanfear would not be killed simply for being a Forsaken. I think she was killed for breaking the doorway. And Moiraine is held as a lesser participant, the way a murderer might get a death sentence, and an accomplice a lesser prison term. It seems obvious that channeling destroyed the ter'angreal in some way, and Lanfear was holding a WHOLE lot more saidar than Moiraine. The fact that Lanfear was Forsaken might have something to do with her lessened ability to channel though. That is totally speculative however, it could just as easily be a part of the Dark One's punishment for being weak enough to get killed.

 

 

And nothing anyone sofar has put forward has 'shot down, the simple, obvious, no-convolution facts that make Moiraine the best candidate' in my eyes.

 

NO CONVOLUTION?!!! When it takes a hundred pages to explain it? When you have an unverifiable timeline, and a killer currently in custody? When you have a suspect motive? Every part of this theory is convoluted!

 

Here is Graendal, unconvoluted:

 

Motive: Asmodean was helping al'Thor, al'Thor is her enemy, so she killed him.

 

Means: As an unshielded Forsaken, Graendal had enough power that any direct confrontation would be over instantly.

 

Opportunity: Graendal had unrestricted access to Caemlyn, both before and after the time of the murder. (Rahvin allowed her to come, and al'Thor didn't know enough to detect her.)

 

Moiraine?

 

Motive: Asmodean was Forsaken. (He was, however, leashed as a servant of Rand, and that clouds this issue minimally. I concede, that it does not eliminate her)

 

Means: With Asmodean shielded, she could easily overwhelm him in a direct confrontation. (Since she did not (to our knowledge) know how to invert her weaves, remaining undetected by Aviendha in the next room would be problematic. And if she doesn't use the Power, her chances go WAY down.)

 

Opportunity: This is a real problem. There is no un-convoluted way for her to get access to Asmodean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...