one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Eelfinn]

It was somebody who Asmo's afraid of I'm very sure of that. Why would a forsaken (even the weakest one, with that block) be afraid of slayer? He could have easily killed him even with the block, unless there's something else I've forgotten. :)

 

Did anybody ever find Asmo's body?

[Guest Majsju]

The DO didn't order Asmo's death.

[Mashiara]

I really didn't feel like reading the entire 100 pages...so i'm just gonna say this...could a gholam have killed asmodean?

[TheDiceAgain...]

It was someone he knew, that's obvious by the way it is written. So no, I doubt it was a gholam. If it were, he might not have even noticed it. Also, there was no body (or rather, its never been found) and every other time a gholam has attacked it has left the body in a prominent place to be found.

[Guest Egwene]

just had a look at the WoT program for Dragon*Con.

 

Who Killed Asmodean? Share your insights on WoT's greatest murder mystery! 9/3/2006 10:00AM

Is anyone of the debaters here attending? It would be great if someone would post a short synopsis of this meeting on here afterwards :) maybe even conduct a small poll... see how it compares percentage wise with ours...

.

[Rational_Solutions]

It was somebody who Asmo's afraid of I'm very sure of that. Why would a forsaken (even the weakest one' date=' with that block) be afraid of slayer? He could have easily killed him even with the block, unless there's something else I've forgotten. :)

 

Did anybody ever find Asmo's body?[/quote']

 

 

 

The body was never found. Well, as for him being afraid fo slayer, if you had hired an assasin to kill people you knew and all of a sudden that assasin came to your room with out you calling him would you be afraid? I would. Also, it has been stated serveral times that Asmo is extremely weak plus we don't know all of the gifts that have been given to Slayer from the DO, maybe he might have a gift similar to a Gholam?

[Jonn]

It was somebody who Asmo's afraid of I'm very sure of that. Why would a forsaken (even the weakest one, with that block) be afraid of slayer? He could have easily killed him even with the block, unless there's something else I've forgotten. :)

 

Did anybody ever find Asmo's body?

 

 

The body was never found. Well, as for him being afraid fo slayer, if you had hired an assasin to kill people you knew and all of a sudden that assasin came to your room with out you calling him would you be afraid? I would. Also, it has been stated serveral times that Asmo is extremely weak plus we don't know all of the gifts that have been given to Slayer from the DO, maybe he might have a gift similar to a Gholam?

 

There is no evidence that says Asmodean ever hired or contracted or even had any relationship with Slayer.

 

Think of who Asmodean was. He was a musician, an artist. The only reason he took the vows to the Shadow was because he was a selfish, over-indulgent, coward, who would do anything to stay alive. All the while he hid behond the reasoning that he wanted to do so for the sake of his art.

What need did he have of assasination in this new Age he as awoken to? What was his power play that he was protecting? From all we know, his sole drive was to secure the Choedan Kal, and this was only after Lanfear tipped him off to it. What was he doing beforehand? He wasn't consolidating any sort of power base from what we know. He was tooling around with Lanfear in the Waste for crying out loud. He was posing as a Gleeman. That means he had no real base of operations like most of the others, namely the male forsaken. He was just playing things by ear, trying to survive. Of all the forsaken, he was the most desperate.

 

Desperate with no base...That doesn't speak to me as someone who would have great need of a hired assasin. Who would he need killed that he couldn't or wouldn't kill himself?

 

The other side of it is that if you have an independent contractor like Slayer, he eventually has to show some loyalty to certain players. He becomes a liability if the motivations behind each different contract contradict each other. Slayer probably pays more heed to those with a solid plan and steady work for him. Asmodean doesn't fit that mold, so we can assume that Asmodean had little need for Slayer if any. Slayer would spend more time doing jobs for people like Sammael, Demandred and Mesaana. Ishamael as well. Lanfear was more of a loose cannon, hands on kind of player. The reason she chose Asmodean to teach Rand was because Asmodean was less likely to have a big scheme in play. Without a big scheme, I don't see what need Asmodean would have for an exclusive assasin like Slayer.

 

Could Asmodean have met or heard of Slayer? Yes. Thing is, it's too much guesswork and stretching to draw that conclusion given what we are in the narrative. There is no inkling establishing any relationship of recognition between Slayer and Asmodean at the point where Asmodean is killed.

 

You run into the compound problem with Slayer also in that it would still be a mystery as to who hired him to do it. So there you are back to square one.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Slayer has all but eliminated himself as a suspect with his PoV in Winter's Heart where he is thinking fondly of the highlights of his career. His fondest memory was killing the 2 captured Black Sisters in The Shadow Rising. Asmodean was a legend for several thousand years before either half of Slayer was born. Killing a legend would definitely overshadow killing two defenseless women in a cell.

[Jonn]

Slayer has all but eliminated himself as a suspect with his PoV in Winter's Heart where he is thinking fondly of the highlights of his career. His fondest memory was killing the 2 captured Black Sisters in The Shadow Rising. Asmodean was a legend for several thousand years before either half of Slayer was born. Killing a legend would definitely overshadow killing two defenseless women in a cell.

 

Sigh

 

How many times have we had to say this cwest? We say it all again and again, and still someone brings up Slayer, or Shaidar Haran, or someone crazy like Morridin.

 

To me they are the most obviously eliminated suspects, but they keep coming back.

 

For newbies to this thread:

 

Read any 20 pages in a row within this thread and you should be able to make a comment without retreading what has already been discussed ad nauseum.

 

I really think that it should be, if not a requirement, a strongly suggested prerequisite to making a guess on this thread.[/b]

[Guest Egwene]

As the originator of this thread, I absolve people from that task, Jonn. Much as I understand your frustration... you don't have to reply to such guesses. Let the new guys have the fun of tellig each other why it could or couldn't be 8)

 

From you I was hoping to get irrefutable evidence that it had to have been Moiraine! You know the one sentence somewhere in the books that will sway the vote 100% in her favour and make all those people compulsed by Graendal's fav...ah.. I mean Graendal... see the fictiveness of their claims :P

.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Actually, I was just summarizing other people that time. I usually don't mind repeating myself too much on this thread provided the person I am responding to is relatively new. Unless they did a really bad mis-quote that is. Now, if you make me repeat myself concerning Olver = Gaidal, you had better start looking for cover. :lol:

[Jonn]

Actually, I was just summarizing other people that time. I usually don't mind repeating myself too much on this thread provided the person I am responding to is relatively new. Unless they did a really bad mis-quote that is. Now, if you make me repeat myself concerning Olver = Gaidal, you had better start looking for cover. :lol:

 

lol

 

egwene, I understand.

 

I just get a little annoyed when people preamble their guess with : I didn't feel like, bother to, or want to, read 100 pages of the thread.

 

You know what? It's not required, but it's polite to at least try to catch up with what has been discussed.

 

From the way this discussion has gone, you can probably read any 10-20 pages and generally get a good idea what has been discussed before and what not.

 

Traditionally, it is also always nice to start off in an established thread by commenting on what is being discussed currently or the most recently.

 

It just strikes me as rude to bypass what people are talking about with a guess that you might have known has been discussed several times, if you'd bothered to do a little reading.

 

You don't have to read the whole thing. At least try to read the most recent ten pages. It's not that hard.

 

But anyhow, that's just me. My thing is, if I'm that terribly interested in the subject of a conversation, I'm going to sit and listen to figure out what is going on before I go ahead and say something. I mean some of these guesses were just discussed a few pages ago...

 

My point is, we just go in circles this way. Try to catch up before you say something. It's a courtesy that I appreciate whole-heartedly.

 

You can get through 10,000 pages of the Wheel of Time, I'm sure you can get through around 20-30 pages of posts by fellow enthusiasts.

 

You don't have to do what I say though. It's your choice. Just dont be surprised if some of us get frustrated by your newbieness to the thread. :shock:

[ionlylooklazy]

has anyone mentioned sammael? what are the reasons for/against sammael?

 

the person who killed asmoedean was definitely someone he recognized, so it almost has to be a forsaken

 

it was originally rahvin, sammael, grendael, and lanfear plotting against rand in TFOH, lanfear fell through the twisted ter'angreal, and rahvin was balefired, so that leaves sammael and grendael as the two obvious choices, as theyd be most likely to be at the palace

 

there were three instances where darkfriends attacked rand while in the aiel waste that could be linked to the forsaken.

 

the first were the darkhounds, some went after rand, some went after mat, and tracks led to where asmodean was staying, but was he himself was unharmed. this shows that the forsaken mentioned are aware the asmodean is travelling with rand. later, lanfear reveals that the darkhounds were sent by rahvin, however sammael has been the only forsaken to use darkhounds up until now(when moiraine & co fled illian in TDR)

 

the second, as they are moving to jangai pass, was a group of trollocs shouting "Sammael! Sammael and the Golden Bees!", however this was just a diversion for the drakhar attack on rand.

 

the third wasnt an attack, but an attempt to kill someone close to rand, to get provoke him into an irrational response. melhindra, the aiel maiden mat had been seeing, tried to kill him with a dagger inlaid with 7 golden bees on hilt (or something to that effect)

 

these clues seem to intentionally provoke rand into attacking sammael, as can be seen by sammaels relunctance to participate as nynaeve is spying on moghedien who is in turn spying on the conspiring forsaken (chptr 34 a silver arrow), but i dont understand why lanfear would tell him that it was rahvin who sent the darkhounds, and it also seems too obvious of a trap

 

skip ahead to where rand travels to the caemlyn palace, as soon as he arrives he is met by trollocs, mydraal, and lighting from rahvin himself. later we read that rahvin had a warding set around the palace to detect any male channeling. so we can infer that rahvin was expecting rand. why? is there an informant in rands camp? there was a day between when rand decided to attack rahvin and when he actually went, and the secret wasnt closely guarded despite his efforts. even so, there was only time to get message to rahvin if someone traveled.

 

but there was a forsaken at Cairhienin, whom rand never found, after lifting the seige, but which? rahvin or sammael, as it was saidin being weaved. rand beleived it to be sammael.

 

whomever was at Cairhienin attacking rand, was likely also the person to tip off rahvin, unless it was rahvin himself. if it was sammael, could he also have remained at the palace? he would have had to refrain from channeling intially, and that would also mean that he did not assist rahvin ,which would be peculiar considering his hatred for LTT.

 

even with the doubts, ima have to go with sammael on this one

[rochaid]

"Rumors! Lanfear has been aiding al'Thor since the beginning, if you [Graendal] ask me. I would have had his head in the Stone of Tear except that someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him! That was Lanfear; I am certain. I'm done with her. The next time I see her, I'll kill her! And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al'Thor. He's teaching him!"

 

a quote from one of sammael's PoV's after asmo's death.he is talkin to graendal and is angry,and seen as how we know sammael was an emotional and hot headed man its unlikely he's feigning the ignorance.

[DaiAldazar]

Isn't it obvious?!

 

Master Hark clearley fancied Asnmodean's harp..........

lol. no. Just kidding. I really think it was either moiraine, or grendal, or whatever her name is.

[Guest Egwene]

Please keep voting.

[Conor]

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=101

 

It's worth seeing this webpage for an interesting pro's and con's on whodunnit and why someone did or didn't.

 

I know it may have been posted before, but 101 pages of posts made it hard to look through!

 

I agree with the page, has to have been Graendal, it just makes sense.

Asmo was weak, and weakened by the shield placed on him by Lanfear, so there wasn't much strength needed to kill him in my opinion.

 

I just wonder if we'll ever find out for certain :?

[cannon]

I agree with the page, has to have been Graendal, it just makes sense.

 

No, it doesn't! Being the last person left in a process of elimination does not, in and of itself, make that candidate "make sense".

 

She had no reason to be there, no reason to hide out and wait for Asmodean, and no reason to kill him in general more than any other forsaken. And certainly no reason to risk being around the Dragon just after he killed one of her co-conspirators.

 

Because the process of elimination leaves an unlikely suspect, it is more likely based on wrong assumptions and must be considered invalid.

[imlad]

I have always felt it was a toss up between Moiraine and Lanfear. I understand the arguements for Graendal, but I just don't buy it.

 

Whichever one did it (between Moir and Lanfear) I believe they did it with the aid (one way or another) of the *Finns.

[Guest Egwene]

Time to bring it up to the top again... time for those that have not yet voted to do so...8)

 

If you want to post your own theories... don't be scared off by the length of this post. Give it a go. If it's already been chewed over a hundred times, you may just find that no one comments. However, there are a lot of new guys here who may wish to discuss with you... let's face it... no one at this stage can be prooven beyond reasonable doubt to be the killer. The jury is still out... make your case...

.

[Musenge]

Hi egwene,

 

Somebody probably already did say this in such a big thread but...

 

I think it was Graendal because the chosen were meeting to lure Rand into attacking Sammael in Illian. Lanfear set up the plan and she told them that Asmodean had gone over to serve Rand. Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael were present at that meeting held by Lanfear.

 

Rahvin ended up dead and Lanfear in the aelfinn/eelfinn place. Besides Lanfear is the one who gave Asmodean to Rand in the first place so I think it unlikely she would kill him.

 

Which leaves Sammael or Graendal for me. Sammael's Saidin would have been felt by Rand but Graendal's Saidar wouldn't at that range.

 

She also would have percieved him as a traitor due to Lanfear's apparent death and Rahvins comming on top of what Lanfear told them all.

 

Graendal did it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It has to be either Graendal or Slayer, and the odds are much in favor of Graendal, like, 90/10

[Jonn]

Again, there's the basic problem of when and how she dispatched Asmodean.

 

There's also why she never acknowledges the killing even in her own POVs.

 

The process of elimination is simply not enough here. That's the problem with people jumping on the Graendal train. It leads no nowhere other than an answer by default.

[Guest Egwene]

Moiraine has picked up another three votes lately, Jonn. Maybe some people have read these pages and be swayed by your excellent arguments in her favour. :)

 

For me... if it is Graendal... there is no story there. I feel it makes much more sense for it to have been Moiraine of Lanfear as in both cases there is opportunity for a story to be told. Also, in Graendals case we really should have had a PoV that made some reference to Asmo.

.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How could it possibly be either Lanfear or Moiraine? We KNOW Moiraine is still in the world of the Eelfinn. And had been since that morning. Lanfear went through with her. Even if she instantly died, it would have taken some time to transmigrate her soul to a new body.

 

From RJ's answer to Tor's question of the week, Week 3, "There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul ... After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one ... Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance."

 

So an instant reincarnation is HIGHLY unlikely, and is only possible if Lanfear dies immediately upon entering the Eelfinn gate. And since Cyndane remembers being held by the Eelfinn, it turns highly unlikely into impossible. Sorry folks, it just can't be either of them.

 

Lack of "story" or not, Graendal is the most likely suspect by a far margin. She had motive (she was aware of Asmodean's betrayal of the shadow), means (she knows how to invert weaves and hide her ability to channel) and opportunity (as part of the cabal involving Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin, she could be in Rahvin's territory, and likely would have been, since she and Rahvin anticipated al'Thor's attack on Sammael soon, and were to meet it linked.) She refers to Asmodean as absolutely dead in her POV's, showing none of the doubt that some of the other Forsaken have. And it also explains how the Dark One would know about it. She recalls two trips to Shayol Ghul right around that time, one of which resulted in the Dark One dangling the Nae'blis carrot in front of her. Killing the traitor Asmodean, in such a way that it removed al'Thor's teacher AND increased chaos (Rand thinks Asmodean just escaped, since no body was left) would have brought the Dark One's approval.