one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Dragonsworn]

She very well could have been. The Finns kill her on site since she's Forsaken, the DO places her in a new body, viola.

 

Plus if you re-read parts of TSR you find out the Finns are harsh on anything touching the Shadow, time works differently there, Lanfear flat out tells Asmo she WILL kill him (and we know RJ's hints are blunt ex: in EOTW Moi is testing Eg and Eg tells Rand she can be AS and maybe even Amyrlin Seat one day.)

 

So she very well could be out of Finnland, in Cyn's body, and snatched Asmo through a gateway (and for those who think someone should have felt channeling...Moridin could have made the gateway since he has the mindtrap for Cyn.) Plus I think he would have been very surprised to see her!

 

I need to see something very convincing in favor of Graendal. Her only appearances up to that point (if memory serves) has mainly been in the dreamland.

 

Also, in interviews I've read RJ states that the killer should be easily know from the information given up to that point (book 5) and he was also amused that there is such mystery to it.

I know Moridin hadnt made an appearance and Cyn's idenity was yet unknown at that point in the book BUT we know the Forsaken who weren't balefired or named Asmo have found new bodies.

[Zardi]

Asmodean recognized his killer, and Cyndane does not look like Lanfear. So how could he have recognized her?

 

Maybe I'm missing something really obvious, though. :P

[Graendals favourite]

The DO would also have had to be in quite a hurry. It was hours after Lanfear went through the gateway, and Balthamel, Aginor and Ishamael took quite some time to reappear, almost a year for the two, and half a year for Ishy.

Also, in interviews I've read RJ states that the killer should be easily know from the information given up to that point (book 5) and he was also amused that there is such mystery to it.

I know Moridin hadnt made an appearance and Cyn's idenity was yet unknown at that point in the book BUT we know the Forsaken who weren't balefired or named Asmo have found new bodies.

If this isn't easy then what is:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

[Guest Egwene]

Graendal's fav: I will not give the idea up, because the results speak otherwise. Asmodean WAS unable to defend himself. Had he not been surprised and shocked, instead of stopping and speaking he could have seized saidin and defended himself. Or dodged into the hallway behind. Also, she did not wait long. The interval is about the same as human reaction time, after Asmo had come fully into view. Her reaction time started after the door opened and she could see him clearly, which amounts to a second at most.

 

Ok, so we all pretty much agree that Asmo was suprised, shocked, amazed... whatever you call it. I once saw a friend walking ahead in the street with some other guys, deep in conversation... tapped him on the shoulder.... he swung around instantly and was just able to pull his punch instead of hitting me. He was military and his reaction came as a total shock to me. I know that none of my civilian friends in the same situation would have reacted like that. Fact is, that Asmo did not react as quickly as you should be abe to expect from someone who has been in danger for most of his life. Who was trained as Aes Sedai. In my opinion this points to Moiraine because he does not immediately recognise he is in danger.

 

Also, whoever was behind the door, did have that moment of the actual pushing of the door which put them ahead of Asmo in the awareness stakes.

 

My points:

1) Asmo was startled by something more than seeing one of his ex-buddys... something that literally stopped him dead in his track. Seeing someone you think is dead and who you might not see as a deadly threat in any case, would fit this perfectly.

 

2) Bit much of a coincidence that he should think of Lanfear just moments before.

 

3) The shiver... if Moiraine was put into a small dark room by the Finns, her first reaction would probably have been to use an eaves dropping weave, trying to work out where she might be and if it was safe to move from the aerea. Totally plausible, logic reaction which also would give her a moment or two to be ready for whoever entered.

 

4)We know Moiraine knew of Asmo's true identity.

 

5)Moiraine was an absolute central figure to proceedings before... there were tons of indications and reasons for her to be still alive... it totally fits in for her to be still involved from off-stage.

 

6) Rand makes the observation that the window from where he is watching Avi and Mat, is the 'only place he had thought he could be sure of watching Mat and Aviendha unseeen and undisturbed'... that sort of points at there being no other for Graendal to be occupying. Moiraine however, did not need to see Asmo... she was put in the spot by the Finns as a consequence of their interpretation of one of her 'wants'.

 

Probably could think of more, but these are enough to convince me. :)

[Graendals favourite]

Reflexes are very quick, also trained reflexes. Like, well Wimbledon is on the way, look at the guys at the net, when the opponent at mid-court hits the ball as hard as he can straight at them, trying to get the ball touch them; most times they'll get the racket in its way. The shock factor disables reflexes for a moment. Like the sudden truck coming at you you just noticed, where you're unable to move.

 

However, Moiraine would have had no reason to kill anybody, until he saw Asmodean, when he was in the doorway. The same time he saw her. Also, even seeing him, how would Moiraine have attacked Asmo immediately, when Rand could have been two steps behind? How could she make such a rash decision?

 

1) Nope, the blood was drawn from his face at the same time he stopped. He was immediately horrified.

 

2) He also thought of the others.

 

3) The shiver might have been genuine or not. It could have been anything, including the gateway, too.

 

4) But Asmodean didn't know Moiraine knew. He had no reason to suspect she was a threat.

 

5) Yes, indications she was alive, but most likely in Finnland (Which is not the next thing to death).

 

6) There is no reason Rand was right. Also, Graendal would not need to be completely unseen, masked as she was, just as long as she wasn't ogling them the whole time. If that was the case for Moiraine, then how was she supposed to know she was supposed to kill Asmodean? And she still didn't know Asmo was going to surprise her in that room...

[Guest cwestervelt]

1) Nope, the blood was drawn from his face at the same time he stopped. He was immediately horrified.

 

You go wrong right from the very start because we are not given a description of someone who is immediately horrified because he knows he is going to die. The blood drains from Asmodean's face because he is in total shock. He didn't immediately know that he was about to die, that realization was secondary, prompted by the actions of the person he saw. If he immediately knew he was a dead man, he would have gone straight to the "No!" and skipped over the "You?" The blood draining from his face is a classic desription of someone seeing a ghost.

[Zardi]

The blood draining from his face is a classic desription of someone seeing a ghost.

Blood draining from the face is a classic description of any kind of fear or shock, not just restricted to when seeing a ghost.

 

Why would one of Moiraine's wishes be to kill Asmodean? Or what else could she have wished for that the Finns would have misinterpreted that way? And if they had put her there in that closet, why bring her back to Finnland again afterwards, and then keep her there?

 

For that matter, since Moiraine tumbled through the doorway along with one of the Forsaken, after which the doorway was destroyed, how can we be sure that the Finns even gave her any wishes?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Blood draining from the face is a classic description of any kind of fear or shock, not just restricted to when seeing a ghost.

 

That doesn't disprove my point that Graendal's Favorite can't claim Asmodean immediately knew he was dead simply because the blood drained from his face. If anything, it strengthens my point by introducing a wide variety of situations in which that literary device is used besides just that of mortal peril.

[Guest Egwene]

Zardi:Why would one of Moiraine's wishes be to kill Asmodean? Or what else could she have wished for that the Finns would have misinterpreted that way? And if they had put her there in that closet, why bring her back to Finnland again afterwards, and then keep her there?

 

For that matter, since Moiraine tumbled through the doorway along with one of the Forsaken, after which the doorway was destroyed, how can we be sure that the Finns even gave her any wishes?

 

We know from Mat's experience that the Finns will happily put there own spin on what is said. We also know that Moiraine's misson statement has always been to fight the shadow and to help the Dragon. Combine those two and the Finn's response is to give her the opportunity to eliminate the Shadow close to Rand.

 

We also know that Moiraine had knowledge of a possible rescue from the tower of G. So wanting to be there would be a logical request for her to make.

 

Can we be sure that the Finns granted her the usual requests... No, if we could be sure of anything, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But again, the way Mat's trip went, I'd say they are pretty desperate for those exchanges. It seems they only get things they want if they grant these requests and it seems visitors are few and far inbetween.

 

None of these things require any deviation from logic and common sense. If Moiraine survived (which we know she did), if she was granted requests (which the Finns do seem to be quite desperate for) than the rest fits into place like the last piece of a jigsaw. No need to invent anything to make it fit.

[Cybertrolloc]

1. We know from Mat's experience that the Finns will happily put there own spin on what is said.

 

2. We also know that Moiraine's misson statement has always been to fight the shadow and to help the Dragon.

 

3. Combine those two and the Finn's response is to give her the opportunity to eliminate the Shadow close to Rand.

No, 3 doesn't follow from 1 & 2 even from what we have in the books and not from what Jordan has deigned to flesh out more in Q/A sessions or Question of the Week. You don't take into account that Mat didn't break the door when he came in to begin with--does that break the treaty?

______

 

I'm more baffled by the recent effete Forsaken posts. We just had the Rand/Rhavin battle (which didn't have too much effect on Caemlyn considering the Rhavin brought a bunch of Shadowspawn into the Inner City, but we don't see much of the cleanup and LoC starts a month or so later). Before that, Lanfear effortlessly puts down Moiraine, Egwene, Avienda, hundreds of Aiel and fights Rand to a standstill (though he could have won if he were willing to kill before she grabbed the angreal). Before that, Sammael in the fight for Carhein...

 

Any Forsaken could take out a major city given a few hours and no opposing channelers, the question is why haven't they (my opinion is one part orders and a big part wanting something left to rule over)? Are we sure that Ituralde is really going against Graendal's plans--war seems pretty chaotic to me? Sammael wising up to Graendal's tricks doesn't really speak against her competence either, this is the guy that was the primary antagonist for 4 books.

_____

 

So can we get back to means, motive, opportunity at least some of us can agree on?

 

Means: Channeling or at least something that would be a threat to Asmodean--mundane weapons don't have too much of a chance. He's mostly shielded, but not helpless and has shown he is a capable channeler in his fight with Rand. Terangreal could qualify, just something non-mundane that doesn't take preparation.

 

Motives

Dark: The Forsaken know he's a traitor. Further, Lanfear would want to cover her tracks about his defection and he heard what Lanfear said to Rand about taking on the Dark One with the Choeden Kal.

 

Light: He's a Forsaken, that's good enough.

 

Crimescene:

No body mentioned. We don't know that the palace isn't an abbatoir (Trollocs are messy like that), but it doesn't seem so bad. There's at least some likeness between the courtyard Asmo starts in and where Rahvin and Rand fought in TaR (balefire marks along the corridor, but they could be all over the palace...there's a time jump in the fight). Like I said, LoC picks up weeks later, parts of this are going to be guesswork.

 

 

Jordan knocks out Fain (he's on his way to Carhein). He also may have knocked out Taim with his remarks at the same convention (last summer?), but if current Taim is a Forsaken or Forsaken trained before he hits Andor...tough to discount him entirely. I think it's important that the killer is known to Asmodean but we don't have anything but guesswork on what Asmodean did prior to the getting nabbed in the Waste.

 

I've read the books several times and looked at anything that seems pertinant to who killed Asmo carefully. Forget what I pulled out of the Graendal/Sammael interludes, difficult to pull something clear out of them.

[Graendals favourite]

I admit the blood drawing from face could result in seeing from someone who should be dead. I would not think Asmodean so excitable, since he had nothing to fear from Moiraine as far as he could know, but it is possible. CW, I say he saw someone who terrified him, and when he saw what she was going to do, said the "No!". Ididn't say what you said I did. But, yes this does not necessarily preclude Moiraine, since we don't know Asmodean so well. This is not a central point, and it is not necessary to preclude anything by that, though personally I don't understand why Asmo'd been terrified of the ghost of Moiraine.

 

None of the earlier removes the fact that if Moiraine had been put in position where she could kill Asmodean, as resulting from a wish to aid Rand, she would not have been able to kill him so quickly. She would not know she was supposed to kill him, or that he was about to walk on her there, when she'd not seen him yet at all.

 

I remind, that Asmodean was going to cling to the tuft of grass that was Rand, so he WAS not a threat to him. He was coming back to the Light, because otherwise he was dead anyway. A wish to remove a threat near Rand could not have hit on Asmo. Also, if Moiraine had planned to remove Asmo by foresight from the rings, why did she ask Rand to be careful of him, and to always remember he was still the same man he'd always been.

 

This amounts to Moiraine being precluded by the 1st point: The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

 

 

The Finns seem to be desperate for the price, not the gifts they give. Moiraine and Lanfear did bring a source of light to the place, they had already broken the first precondition by burning the gateway when they entered. They entered without permission.

 

Finally, Mat wished to be away from the Finns and back in Rhuidean. Still they put a price on him by hanging him from a treelimb, which they could do from the other side of the doorway. If they could have yanked him back, they could have done so freely, since he had already been away from them and back in Rhuidean, no need for all the trouble. The only answer is, they couldn't.

 

CT, wouldn't care to go there, because general considerations don't yield the answer. It is yielded by the four points, they still stand.

[Jonn]

I admit the blood drawing from face could result in seeing from someone who should be dead. I would not think Asmodean so excitable, since he had nothing to fear from Moiraine as far as he could know, but it is possible. CW, I say he saw someone who terrified him, and when he saw what she was going to do, said the "No!". Ididn't say what you said I did. But, yes this does not necessarily preclude Moiraine, since we don't know Asmodean so well. This is not a central point, and it is not necessary to preclude anything by that, though personally I don't understand why Asmo'd been terrified of the ghost of Moiraine.

 

None of the earlier removes the fact that if Moiraine had been put in position where she could kill Asmodean, as resulting from a wish to aid Rand, she would not have been able to kill him so quickly. She would not know she was supposed to kill him, or that he was about to walk on her there, when she'd not seen him yet at all.

 

Of course she could kill him quickly. Have you read New Spring? Have you read what she can do to a Fist of tollocs? Aes Sedai are very quick, and Moiraine would be an example of an exceptional Aes Sedai.

 

As for her scaring Asmodean...He was just done musing to himself about watching Lanfear go down, probably thinking about her killing him, but also bringing back memories of the attack at the docks. He opens the door and bang, there's someone who was supposed to be dead along with Lanfear, alive, so...what does that mean, oh yeah LANFEAR COULD BE ALIVE AS WELL but... "You?" Moiraine raises her hand. "No!"

 

The reaction is key. If it were any of the Forsaken it doesn't seem to fit. He knows immediately that he's dead if he sees one of them. He's not going to be confused or shocked and ask "You?" Any of those people would have killed him. He wouldn't even say, "You?", he'd lash out with whatever he had to maybe get some aid or buy some time, or luck out and kill his assailant, but the fact that he had pause and asked the question "You?" says a lot. If it were Moiraine, he would hesitate, but still be shocked to see her and when she would raise her hand, it would be too late for him to do anything but shout "No!"

 

I remind, that Asmodean was going to cling to the tuft of grass that was Rand, so he WAS not a threat to him. He was coming back to the Light, because otherwise he was dead anyway. A wish to remove a threat near Rand could not have hit on Asmo. Also, if Moiraine had planned to remove Asmo by foresight from the rings, why did she ask Rand to be careful of him, and to always remember he was still the same man he'd always been.

 

What are you talking about, he was coming back to the Light? Where did you get that notion? That doesn't say very much about what you know of the Forsaken. Asmodean was a survivalist. He would do whatever he could to stay alive, but the fact was that he was still who he ever was, as Moiraine reminds us in her letter. I would say that her warning to Rand points more to her suspicion and willingness to get rid of the man rather than her willingness to let him be.

 

This amounts to Moiraine being precluded by the 1st point: The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

 

What makes you think this is a point? If Moiraine used a request, she would certainly be expecting to have to do something as part of the bargain. If she had asked to eliminate the most imminent threat to Rand and the Finns interpreted that to be one of the Forsaken, she would expect the first thing she saw behind that door would be someone she needed to eliminate. I don't see how your supposed point excludes Moiraine.

 

 

The Finns seem to be desperate for the price, not the gifts they give. Moiraine and Lanfear did bring a source of light to the place, they had already broken the first precondition by burning the gateway when they entered. They entered without permission.

 

Finally, Mat wished to be away from the Finns and back in Rhuidean. Still they put a price on him by hanging him from a treelimb, which they could do from the other side of the doorway. If they could have yanked him back, they could have done so freely, since he had already been away from them and back in Rhuidean, no need for all the trouble. The only answer is, they couldn't.

 

CT, wouldn't care to go there, because general considerations don't yield the answer. It is yielded by the four points, they still stand.

 

Your four points don't stand on their own, that's what you fail to realize. They are questionable. People ask questions about the points that support Graendal, so under such scrutiny, I cannot see how you can call your points standing ones. Every time someone questions your points you go all delusional and start saying that they stand just because you say so. As if referencing your own opinion adds stature to your position...You start sounding like a politician, and not a particularly good one to be honest.

 

As for the Price paid for wishes. That's probably why Moiraine is still there isn't it? It makes sense to me. The incident where Mat goes through to meet them illustrated the dangers of dealing with these beings. You have to pay a price for everything you ask for. The more complicated the request, the more that you must give in exchange.

 

Fact is, Moiraine is still alive and is awaiting rescue. She obviously made a deal to keep herself alive. The Finns want to make the Bargain, so I doubt she could remain among them having not made a bargain. We as readers know that the asker must name a price themselves otherwise that decision is made for you. Mat was lucky enough to ask to be brought back to where he came from, but he was too ignorant to know that he must also set terms for the price. What we know of the bargain Moiraine made is very limited at this time, but we can be reasonably sure that she has made some kind of arrangement with the Finns.

 

You know what that makes her? It makes her a wild card. She could have asked for any number of things and obviously the price was her freedom. The fact that she seems to be paying a price is proof that she indeed got something in return.

 

That leaves just motive and the details of the means. We know her motive. She is hardcore about her cause to keep the Dragon whole until Tarmon Gaidon. She'd never allow one of the Forsaken to breathe in the same room as Rand. Read Eye of the World and the beginning of their journey together to see how much she'll tolerate the presence of the Shadow influencing the fated ones. Her motive is pretty solid.

 

That only thing that stands in the way is the details of the means. We just don't know. That's alright though. The way the whole sequence is written reads as a setup to a big reveal. So logically, what is the biggest cliffhanger in the books? What happened to Moiraine. What's the longest standing mystery in the books? Who killed Asmodean. The two events are streamlined to coincide. It's perfectly clear. :D

[Graendals favourite]

Jonn, you still don't know what I'm talking about, do you? The murder was quick, two second maximum, from the opening of the door. From nothing does it come that Moiraine could be able to or would try to kill Asmodean, who suddenly surprised her in the room she'd been put into. The murderer had to know he was coming and have her weaves ready.

 

Yes, reaction is key. If Asmo had not been shocked, the blood drawing from his face, he could have tried to defend himself, or escape back to the hallway where he came from. The same surprise would have taken time for also Moiraine, had Asmo stumbled upon him. She would not even have known he was alone.

 

Coming back to the Light means he no longer serves the DO. Have you read Glowing Embers? You seem to disregard it in your analysis. He must try to cling to Rand and against hope try to help him beat the DO. Because he'd sooner or later be hunted down.

 

Not so, there is some limit to what the request can be. It cannot be, the wish that automatically makes her the murderer and the queen of all as a bonus. Either she was asking to kill Asmo or not. In neither case would she have known Asmo was going to come through the door. She would be given the capability of doing the deed, "Done" and it would be up to her to interpret what that is and do it. So she is given a ride to the Palace? She knows she can remove a threat? No way will she kill Asmo like that.

 

A much better way of removing a threat would have been to get herself out of that place permanently. You know she has to be at TG. It is far from certain she will get out alive, even if the Thom, Mat and the other come alone to rescue her. She could have just killed of Mat and herself, pretty much dooming the world. And she knew she was risking Mat, going into that place in the first place.

 

It is hard for you to speak of the points if you obviously don't realise what they are. The Four Points Solution:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

 

Addding, when someone questions the points, I explain what is meant by them, if there is misunderstanding. Most Asmo theories have concentrated everywhere but the murder scene, so not everyone is focused on what precisely happened. As to points that favour Graendal, none are needed additionally, I will be interested if someone claims there is a flaw in those four points, not in whether Graendal took a bath that morning.

[Guest Egwene]

I am happy to focus on the murder scene, Graendal's fav.

 

As I detailed earlier (and you failed to acknowledge), any female channeler on finding herself in an unknown space would listen to surrounding noises. Any female channeler would have known of Asmo's potential arrival several seconds before actally coming face to face with him whereas he definately did not have that advantage. Which very clearly leaves every female channeler in the running on this point. Including Moiraine.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Your 4 points are not definite in any way. They are interdependent to such an extent that if either of your first points is wrong, both of them are wrong.

 

1) There is nothing that says the person knew it was Asmodean that was coming through the door. There is nothing that says the person knew that that he was alone. That is an assumption that you are making that is based on observations your killer must have made in your second point.

 

2) There is nothing that says the person chose that location for killing of Asmodean. There is nothing that says the person necessarily knew where they were. In the scenario that Moraine was placed there by the Finn's, it is doubtful she had any idea where she was. You insist on the location being chosen by a follower simply because it is the only way the person in your first point can have the knowledge you claim they had.

 

Your number two point exists solely to set up the scenario necessary for your number one point. All your number one point does is attempt to provide a reason for the actions in your number two point. They are circularly dependent as the each point relies on the other. There is nothing wrong with the idea of a 2nd point requiring the first point as that is a logical progression. You can't have the first point dependent ont the second point at the same time. That gives 2 end points with no beginning.

[Graendals favourite]

:D .

 

 

Egwene, sorry, there were so many things I forgot to answer those, though I meant to. But an important thing is, even listening to noises, she wouldn't know who was coming. It could be anyone, or several people. There's only the footsteps to warn until the door opens. Also since she wouldn't know who it was, there would be no reason to think of killing. If she'd figured out she was in the Caemlyn palace, it would likely have been a servant for all she knew, if she hadn't been around yet. No reason to think anyone threatening was there, yet at least. I can't see the Finns knowing which door Asmo was going to choose any more than anyone else.

 

I suppose if Moiraine'd known she was going to be yanked back immediately, she wouldn't need to care whether Asmo'd been alone. Still, she shouldn't have had to be in a hurry to kill him. After all, he didn't know she knew him. She could linger till she knew she could do it.

 

For those reasons I can't see Moiraine deciding to immediately kill the intruder, whom she recognised as Asmodean, and to do it so quickly, since the recognition can't have come before it came to Asmodean.

 

 

CW, you are right, in a way, but I mean the points differently. In providing a solution, the points are interdependent, but they hold also independently. point 4 considers only the female Forsaken. Point 3 considers people who could go from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds. Point 2 considers how anyone could have known Asmodean was going to go through that door, and was alone. And Point 1 considers how the murder could have happened, given the text. If any is wrong, they amount to nothing in giving an answer, otherwise Graendal is the killer.

 

1) It is not an assumption, I make an observation from the paragraph. To make referencing easier, here:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

That is the biggest clue to solving the thing. The paragraph describes how the murder happened. It is holy, it cannot be ignored. Asmo pulled open the door, took one step, while taking it he recognised someone and was shocked, thus he stopped and uttered "You?" He then straight away realised he was going to die, said the "No!" which was cut right on its heels.

 

This describes a very quick death after he opened the door. It is too quick for anyone to perform who wasn't ready to act immediately. There is no time to recognise Asmodean, be surprised he came, realise he should be killed, wonder whether he is alone and if it's safe to attack, and take the big risk of attacking him (At least for the Forsaken it is a big risk, if they don't know whether he is alone). When Asmo said "No!", the killing weave must have already been launched, then he knew he was dead and did not have time to even try to grasp saidin.

 

2) So after 1, there is no need to consider people who did not know. And the same from there. Actually the number 1 exists to set 2 exists to set up 3 exists to set up 4. Well, since I added the conclusion in 4, it is not independent, but writing it there saves space.

[Graendals favourite]

To clarify further, in each point I make a rational observation, and add the conclusion of the murderer in it as I go: How to kill as in text, how to know, how to translocate, who among female Forsaken; the murderer expected Asmodean, she saw him on the other side of the door, she was a female Forsaken, she was Graendal.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I agree that the paragraph is crucial. We apparently have a very different way of reading it. I don't see the "You?" as being an immediate reaction. Neither do I see the "No!" as coming immediately on the heals of the "You?". There are at least 2 pauses within the encounter.

 

Given the text, Asmodean opens the door, steps into the room and goes into shock. It then takes a second or so to actually register what he is seeing and for him to be able to utter the puzzled "You?" A that point, you get another delay as his brain is still trying to come to grips with what he is seeing. After that delay, comprehension occurs and he realizes he is about to die and he shouts the "No!" . I would say there is at least 5 seconds from him stepping in the door and him dying. Plenty of time for someone to prepare a weave, and significantly more than someone would have needed if they already had one ready.

 

I don't know how refined Moiraine's eavesdropping trick was, but the indications are that she was quite good at it. I'm not saying the shiver was anything more than a natural reaction to Asmodean's thoughts because I think that is just what it was. I will say that you can't discount someone from knowing how many people were in the hall way via a listening weave. They could deduce from lack of conversation that the person was alone. Alternatively, depending on the effectiveness of the weave, they could have picked up the sound of footsteps and known that their was only 1 person unless everyone was marching in perfect time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

To clarify further' date=' in each point I make a rational observation, and add the conclusion of the murderer in it as I go: How to kill as in text, how to know, how to translocate, who among female Forsaken; the murderer expected Asmodean, she saw him on the other side of the door, she was a female Forsaken, she was Graendal.[/quote']

 

The problem is that you are adding the conculusion into each step. Your steps should be building to the conclusion, not relying on that conclusion. You exclude all non Forsaken solely on the grounds that your chosen murderer has to be a Forsaken. You determine that the killer had to start from the other side of the door because that is the only way you can see for your Chosen killer (sorry, couldn't resist the capital "C" :oops: ) to have known Asmodean was coming.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I see we read it differently.

 

But we are in his pov. Surely we would have been told if he was in such shock. Instead there comes the "You? No!". And they come together, not split with a thought of "It was impossible" or the like. Sorry, but I just can't see it like that. He's one of the Forsaken after all, done battle however many times.

 

 

Yea, I admit Moiraine could have known one person is coming. It can't be precluded at all, and the solution requires all but a ridiculous possibilities to be ruled out, I mean enough to say this so. Still she could not know the person's identity.

[Graendals favourite]

The problem is that you are adding the conculusion into each step. Your steps should be building to the conclusion, not relying on that conclusion. You exclude all non Forsaken solely on the grounds that your chosen murderer has to be a Forsaken. You determine that the killer had to start from the other side of the door because that is the only way you can see for your Chosen killer (sorry, couldn't resist the capital "C" :oops: ) to have known Asmodean was coming.

 

But if all steps hold, they are valid. Well, I suppose I should write the points completely independently, and then collect the conclusions on a separate round, but that takes twice the length, and makes the things more difficult to follow. But I exclude non Forsaken, because to kill as in the text, the murderer had to know Asmo was coming, for which he had to be able to travel with saidar, for which he had to be a female Forsaken.

 

I'll write the mere observations:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. No one could have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. With very little warning, only a female channeller who could Travel could translocate himself from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds, without a male forsaken approaching that same door noticing.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead. Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage were free. Of those, Graendal had been part of scheme(s) between the Forsaken, to which Rand was central.

[Cybertrolloc]

I'd put the timing of the scene from opening door to "No!" a good bit faster than 5 seconds, but longer speaks more of either channeler, beefy shadowspawn with OP protection or someone with anti-channeling device.

 

Graendal's Fav, you're adding to the scene. From what we read the available possibilities I can think of are:

 

- Ambush--whether following Asmo then moving ahead or waiting in one place, which seems unlikely if Asmodean is an intentional hit (unless it's Slayer who is unlikely for several reasons).

- Surprise--Asmo opens door, his killer is somewhere on other side of it.

 

We don't have anything to distinguish which until we start thinking about suspects.

 

Personally, I've had trouble with Graendaldunnit since the implication is that Asmo dies on the spot, but Paradoxic made me see the Shadow on that one. With her not knowing about his shield...I'm finding a Graendal surprise scenario more likely (and the only credible scenario involving her). Graendal following then making sure he sees her first...seems a great risk to take, and why kill Asmo in a way that he's not transmigrateable by the Dark One in that case?

 

I think we're ok on indiscrimate channeling not being noticed by Rand or Avienda. Avi: just started channeling, at a similar point for the other girls, they're just starting to see the aura around another female channeler (though she's a prodigy later as far as OP detection goes). Rand: farther away from Avi, men are less sensitive to active channeling than women and Rand is involved in the scene with Bashere. Further, we have Forsaken around channelers without them knowing and inversion mentioned by Asmo previously, and we know the Forsaken are very jealous of what they know already.

 

Still see it tough to convict Graendal without a Perry Mason witness stand confession. Though it would probably be a good idea to check the Caemlyn pawn shops for a used harp ;)

[Graendals favourite]

But what am I adding to it, Cybertrolloc?

 

Travelling is possible without Asmodean noticing, it is just a more convoluted way of ambushing, which is not available to non-channellers.

 

Both of those possibilities you mention are impossible. First because the ambusher could then not have known where Asmo was going, and second because the killer would not have known Asmo was coming. Thus it is a third possibility.

 

 

 

As a sidepoint, Graendal wouldn't try Compulsion first if she suspects Asmo might be holding Saidin. In Sammael's pov he notes he's safe from Compulsion if he holds the power. Also, Graendal does have motive to get rid of Asmo, and she is strong enough to kill him even in a fair duel, which she of course does not want, there most of all.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You are adding to the scene by making assumptions and passing them off as absolute fact. You are assuming the person in the room/corridor/whatever knew it was Asmodean that was going to come through the door. You then add the assumption that the person was behind that door for the explicit purpose of killing Asmodean. Neither of those two points are proven, or provable facts.

 

What makes that any different than saying that Moiraine must have made a wish to protect Rand from the Forsaken, and found herself placed in that room by the Finn's? She wouldn't know immediately why she was there, just that there was something she had to do. As a result, she doesn't need to know that Asmodean was going to enter before he did. Then she sees Asmodean walk in. She knows who he is, but he doesn't know she knows. He is shocked by the presense of someone who is supposed to be dead standing there alive and in the flesh. So he says "You?" Moiraine, knowing who Asmodean is, desides that Asmodean was the Forsaken the Finn's chose so she isn't going to hesitate to take him out. Asmodean notices her actions, and yells "No!".

 

That provides a complete scenario that covers all of the information presented in the book. It starts with an intuitively obvious, at least to me, determination of who killed Asmodean, and then works back to how it could have been done. We know from RJ's comments that it should be intuitively obvious, so it has that in its favour. There is nothing in any of the later books to discredit it. Lack of any confirmation of other killers actually strengthens it. That happens because Moiraine has been off stage and presumed dead ever since the docks. In case people didn't pick up right away that she didn't die, you don't want to ruin the story by telling them that, so there isn't any safe spot to confirm or deny it. With Graendal, or any of the other Forsaken, there has been plenty of opportunity to confirm or deny that wouldn't have ruined any of the existing plot lines. The only one that was worthy of a mystery was Lanfear, and she has been back for several books.

 

Addition:

When we are shown the contents of Moiraine's letter to Thom in Knife of Dreams we are provided additional information concerning why Moiraine would kill Asmodean if she saw him at that point.

 

She knew certain things had to happen in order for her to be rescued safely from the Finn's. Allowing Asmodean to tell others that he had just seen Moiraine would have had potentially serious consequences. Asmodean being Forsaken + Asmodean knowing Moiraine is alive + Moiraine knowing she has a chance at being rescued, but only if things happen just right = Moiraine wouldn't think twice about killing Asmodean.

[Graendals favourite]

You are adding to the scene by making assumptions and passing them off as absolute fact. You are assuming the person in the room/corridor/whatever knew it was Asmodean that was going to come through the door. You then add the assumption that the person was behind that door for the explicit purpose of killing Asmodean. Neither of those two points are proven, or provable facts.

 

What makes that any different than saying that Moiraine must have made a wish to protect Rand from the Forsaken, and found herself placed in that room by the Finn's? She wouldn't know immediately why she was there, just that there was something she had to do. As a result, she doesn't need to know that Asmodean was going to enter before he did. Then she sees Asmodean walk in. She knows who he is, but he doesn't know she knows. He is shocked by the presense of someone who is supposed to be dead standing there alive and in the flesh. So he says "You?" Moiraine, knowing who Asmodean is, desides that Asmodean was the Forsaken the Finn's chose so she isn't going to hesitate to take him out. Asmodean notices her actions, and yells "No!".

 

That provides a complete scenario that covers all of the information presented in the book. It starts with an intuitively obvious, at least to me, determination of who killed Asmodean, and then works back to how it could have been done. We know from RJ's comments that it should be intuitively obvious, so it has that in its favour. There is nothing in any of the later books to discredit it. Lack of any confirmation of other killers actually strengthens it. That happens because Moiraine has been off stage and presumed dead ever since the docks. In case people didn't pick up right away that she didn't die, you don't want to ruin the story by telling them that, so there isn't any safe spot to confirm or deny it. With Graendal, or any of the other Forsaken, there has been plenty of opportunity to confirm or deny that wouldn't have ruined any of the existing plot lines. The only one that was worthy of a mystery was Lanfear, and she has been back for several books.

 

What makes it different is which do we know is possible by the rules we know.

 

Those assumptions, I do not make. I look how the murder could have happened, and see only one possibility, the one given by the point 1. Asmo did die, which is a fact, so that leads to the one remaining possibility to be also a fact. Two more facts added, and Graendal, Mesaana or Semirhage being the one becomes a fact.

It is concluded that knowledge of Asmodean coming was a precondition for the murder to take place the way it did in the first place. This is so strong a statement it allows for the murder to be solved in 3 easy steps thereafter.

 

If my interpretation of the paragraph is correct, there is no question your Moiraine scenario is not possible. Then it will not be possible for Moiraine to kill Asmodean in less than 2 seconds of the door opening, the scene will be different, whatever happens. I have not thought on your interpretation long enough yet, but I can't see it.

 

Further more, the possibility of her being popped in and out seems impossible, the latter particularly. It is known the Finns cannot affect anything outside their realm. It seems we have evidence of this-- No one has been yanked back that we know, not even Mat whom they could have yanked back after pushing him into Rhuidean-- still that is only one incident, and it is impossible to draw any conclusions from it. It is known she broke the agreement of bringing no fire to blind-- the ter'angreal burned incredibly hot, with lightnings to add. From what we know, the Finns being nasty things, they could take what they wanted out of her, keeping her as a slave for whatever it is they do. Further more, she saw Lanfear winning against Rand-- surely he still was in need of a teacher! How would killing Asmodean help him?

 

Moiraine is difficult to speak of because the same she has been off stage. We know virtually nothing of her. There is no discredit to Moiraine later on, because we hear nothing of her since then. Of course Lanfear had been held by the Finns too, and it doesn't seem like she got her wishes, but she did not think about her time there. On the Graendal on the other hand, RJ has been saying all along he's not going to reveal it, until now maybe in MoL. The why is not an argument for who did it. Still, there may be plenty of Graendal we don't know, so I could say the same.