one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Llewin]

Here go the Moiraine apologists again...

 

Intriguing' date=' you say? I hate to rain on your parade, jonn and cw, but Moiraine, great character, yes; intriguing, not really.

 

Her whole story is there before us in the text, she is not so different from Gandalf or Obi-Wan.

 

But I think the problem has been RJ's depiction of the Chosen. Why would you need to seal a hot blonde in a see through dress into the Bore? Point well taken.

 

You have seen 11 books of the Chosen being depicted as whiny punks who roll over when confronted by the Light.

 

I am reasonably sure that the remaining Chosen, especially those who survive from the original 13, have very serious operations going. If not, myself and a whole pile of readers will be severely disappointed.

 

They took the Chosen seriously when the sealed them up in the Bore, but nothing to date makes you take them seriously, because they are continually routed by a shepherd and his rogue Aes Sedai advisor.

 

There has been a need for something like "The Empire Strikes Back", where it looks like balance is swinging towards the dark. Since we have not really had that through the penultimate book, I guess it is too late.

 

I hope RJ doesn't hold to present form and have Demandred and Mesaana just show up and then get toasted. That is more argument for there being more than one book, but I suppose RJ could pull another "Aram".[/quote']

 

Actually the 13 who were sealed up were only sealed by happenstance because they happened to be at the Bore at that time, having a meeting with the Dark One...

 

They are only remembered as "the 13 Forsaken" because all the rest of the shadowsworn channelers in the Age of Legends eventually died and were not tied directly to the story of how Lews Therin beat the dark one.

[havoc110]

Jonn, your obsession with Moiraine is mildly disturbing.

 

As for Cw and Ll:

 

So where then is the nature of the conflict? You would describe WoT as roughly a billion words of the forces of Light routing an under-powered and over-hyped forces of Dark. (sort of like Czechs v. USA in the World Cup).

 

I for one don't believe it.

[Llewin]

Wow.. Do you really think the forces of the dark are underpowered?

 

Overhyped I will accept because the Forsaken had risen to near "god-status" in the eyes of the current day Aes Sedai by the time they broke free, they were thought to be truly immortal just as it was thought that the Age of Legends had some abilities that dont exist and never did... (Like unassisted flying for example...)

 

But underpowered? We have had some decisive victories in various battles but the war is far from won... What I see when I read these books is the forces of light defeating each major assault by the forces of dark but a very thin margin... That coupled with the fact that, unlike the forsaken Rand is actually a prophesied hero, spun out by the Pattern to balance the world again... lends itself to him being able to get the job done for the most part...

[havoc110]

I am merely giving you back your own words. It seems the modern day Forsaken are just a bunch of AoL master criminals who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and wound up in the Bore. But I can see a lot of strength in that argument.

 

What exactly are these so-called "major assaults" by the forces of Dark?

 

If the Dark's heavy hitters can be defeated by one above average strength modern age AS, then Nynaeve should be able to hunt them down and destroy them all by herself.

 

The more I think on it, since the end of the Last Age, there has been nothing Dark has done that was anywhere near as effective. Somehow, Dark has (or at least is expected to) to extract a high price from Light for Light to achieve victory, but:

 

A) What proof is there that Dark is able to do this? Without some BIG unforseen scheme put forth by some Chosen that have mostly been in hiding for 10 of 11 books. (Either that or some big betrayal by a central light character).

 

or

 

B) If it plays out much the same as the story has so far, will it seem that Light has had their way far to easy, and all this buildup to TG will be mostly for nothing, just a tidy happy-ever-after ending?

[Jonn]

The Shadow had infiltrated every level of power from the Dragonwall to Falme and beyond.

 

Malkier absorbed by the Blight. Nations disappearing under the weight of the shadow and conflict fluidly for 3000 years.

 

The fact that the Wheel itself has to interfere with ta'varen just to keep a sense of balance should tell you that this so called rout has been in the works for thousands of years.

 

3000 years to see the result? That's not a rout. It's a long, dark, blood-soaked road to an uncertain outcome.

 

How about some perspective.

[Llewin]

Ok, as I can remember them, in something close to chronological order...

 

The Trolloc Wars, decimated 1000 years of cultural growth, causing the entire civilization of the Compact of the Ten Nations to revert to something close to their position at the end of the breaking...

 

The besieging of the White Tower by Artur Hawkwing and corruption of his ideals in to a twisted hatred of the One Power, the work of Ishamael.

 

The creation of the Seanchan empire with all of its twisted culture and corrupted prophecies through Hawkwing's sending off of his son, the work of Ishamael.

 

The destruction of Hawkwing's empire through his sending off of all his other direct descendants, the work of Ishamael.

 

The beginning of the War of a Hundred Years, brought about by the dramatic splintering of Hawkwing's empire, destroying all or most of the social, political, and to some extent technological progress of another near-1000 years, dropping mankind once again in to a place near where they began after the breaking, the work of Ishamael even if indirectly...

 

The creation of Slayer by combining Luc and Isam, the work of Ishamael,or at the very least, the Dark...

 

The death of various Aes Sedai, one of whom is a current Amyrlin, and all of whom know or suspect that the Dragon has been reborn.

 

The death of dozens of male children at the hands of dark friends and black ajah in an attempt to kill the dragon reborn in his infancy.

 

The nearly successful death of Rand, Perrin, and Mat in the Two Rivers, only thwarted by Moiraines 'just in time' arrival and the coincidence of an attack during Winternight, when most people are not in their homes...

 

The nearly successful death of Rand and company numerous times throughout book 1.

 

The nearly successful death of Rand at the end of book two.

 

Many attempts on the part of Lanfear to corrupt Rand or the other two boys.

 

Be'lal almost killing Rand, if Moiraine had fallen in the trap he set for her, Rand would be dead.

 

Dark Hounds sent to kill Rand and Mat. Nearly succeeding. But for Balefire both would be dead.

 

The successful attempt by Lanfear to create enormous cultural discord and bring Rand's status as Car'a'carn in to dispute through her manipulation of Sevannah and company...

 

Thereby creating enormous chaos, a big battle, and the near death, once again of Rand and many of his important entourage.

 

Lanfear nearly killing/severing Rand and nearly killing Egwene and Aviendha, who are essential to Rand winning the last battle according to Min's visions.

 

Perrin nearly dying (another key player in the last battle) and the Two Rivers almost being completely destroyed by hordes of Trollocs under Slayers lead, Slayer basically never does anything important without a Forsaken telling him to.

 

Rhavin causing political chaos in Andor through his manipulation of Morgase, a situation which Elayne still has not been able to bring control over.

 

The black ajah, who dont tend to do anything as a whole group without the approval of one of the big dogs now... 1. manipulating Elaida, nearly destroying the White Tower from within. 2. Causing Rand to be kidnapped and tortured to such an extent that he can barely bring himself to trust any Aes Sedai at all now.

 

The death of (Fel? the philosopher?) just as he was about to tell Rand something essential to success at the Last Battle.

 

The Seanchan effectively and resoundingly returning and taking over 1/4 of the Westlands in a matter of weeks, the work of Ishamael in the beginning and later under the guidance of Semirhage.

 

Moghedien dogged the steps of Nyneave and co. for a long time and nearly destroyed them.

 

Greandal effectively causing mass chaos thoughout Arad Doman.

 

The Gholam nearly killing Aviendha and/or Elayne as well as Mat on more than one occasion

 

Mazrim Taim taking complete or near-complete control of the Black Tower, quite obviously at this point for the Dark...

 

I'm sure there are other near-misses or actions which had horrible consequence.

 

Due to many things which were orchestrated by the Dark, Rand is still so fragile that he may completely shatter inside...

 

The war is far from won, but this book is about a lot more than physical warfare...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Havoc, you may not like it or see a lot of strength in the argument, but the fact is, the Forsaken were in the wrong place at the wrong time and that is the only reason they were sealed away. I'm not making it up. If you follow the links I included earlier, you can find where RJ himself confirms that was why they were sealed.

 

That reason for them being sealed away makes more sense than that they were sealed away deliberately. If they were sealed away deliberately, you then have the question of why Lews Therin and his 100 companions would simply seal them away so that they could come back later. Lews Therin didn't know that he was about to destroy everything so he didn't have any reason to believe the Forsaken wouldn't be able to adapt to their new setting.

 

It really shouldn't be surprising that the Forsaken haven't been very effective. There biggest asset was there status as Legends. Real people generally can't live up to that type of expectation. With the exception of Ishamael, they've been out of circulation for 3000 years. Everything they knew that didn't relate to the One Power no longer applies. Even what they knew to be absolutes concerning the power don't necessarily apply.

 

If Rand should loose (unlikely, but it would give an interesting twist to the seroes) it won't be from any direct action of the Dark's "heavy hitters." It will be from a failure to heal the rifts that are rife throughout the side of the Light. It is because of those rifts that the Dark One has been ahead throughout. United we stand, divided we fall. When the good guys can't unite, the bad win be default.

[havoc110]

The point of all this is:

 

Are the Forsaken bad enough to be taken seriously?

 

Look at other models for comparison:

 

Nazgul: Although I was much younger reading the stories, they seemed serious to me. They were given serious treatment in the motion picture trilogy.

 

Darth Vader: Taken very seriously, until we learned that his name was Annie. Good job Lucas, create the baddest villian of all time, then call him Annie?

 

WoT has, as you put it, a hot blonde in a see thru dress. That equates somehow? I keep wanting to take the Forsaken seriously, but have I overestimated their influence and power?

 

Sure, as LL puts it: Ishy this, Ishy that. OK Ishy/Moridin is a bad dude, plain to see, plus he has been free for all this time. But the others? Looking at the end of FoH, Rahvin is like the little piggy going "Whee! Whee! Whee!" all the way home. Pathetic really.

 

And Asmo, he is/was the most pathetic of a pathetic lot.

 

I am now concerned about an anti-climactic Light victory. A lot of signs point to it. Part of the growing concern is this "Single Book Theory."

 

But I will stay the course, and return to hoping that the Dark is cooking up some schemes to make TG a meaningful ending to all this, cause that is what we really want, right?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I understand that you don't like what you are seeing. (If I followed your post right) What you aren't seeing is the fact that, by having the Foresaken not be all that everyone expected them to be, RJ is giving more validity to the story. He is portraying an accurate picture of how time distorts fact. He is providing a sense of realness that you rarely get in the fantasy fiction.

 

As a side note, the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings were similarly over-estimated by the inhabitants of Middle Earth. When it boils down to it, they did not have any success at there tasks. Nine powerful undead kings, including the Witch King of Angmar. Nine of the most feared people of their time, and they are repeatedly foiled by Hobbits? The most powerful of them was destroyed because a Hobbit stabbed him in the leg. It's a classic case of David and Goliath. Their biggest weapon was the fear that they inspired in others. Once people saw beyond that, the Nazgul were pretty much beat. Ultimately, just like the Forsaken, the Nazgul failed to live up to the expectations inspired by their reputation.

 

Darth Vader was taken very seriously by his opponents yes. Once again though, his biggest weapon was the fear that he inspired in others. Love for his son was his ultimate downfall. He couldn't kill Luke himself, nor could he stand by and watch the Emperor do it. Already early on, after Luke and Vader's first encounter Luke sensed he wasn't all evil. When Luke stated "I can't kill my own father" and Obi Wan replied "Then the Empire has already one" there was a double meening. The obvious one was that by not confronting Vader the Empire would win. The subtle one was that by confronting Vader with the intention of killing him, rather than saving him, the Empire would also win.

[havoc110]

CW: your points are well taken, but seem to validate my point.

 

Sure, the realism is great, but this is also an epic, and a balanced battle between good and evil is to be expected. If Good romps to victory at TG, will you be happy, or wonder if something is missing?

 

And again with the Nazgul and Vader, what fear is Graendal inspiring? Some would believe her incapable of killing a powerless traitor. I do not see much fear being inspired by the lot of them, more like a "Where's Waldo" type of curiosity with the likes of Mesaana and Demandred, but nothing like the fear you ascribe to the other stories. I am rereading EotW now, and the dreams Rand, Mat and Perrin have with Ishy starring in them are pretty fierce. 10 books later, the Forsaken don't seem fierce at all.

 

Your point about the Witch King also corroborates my argument. David v. Goliath to be sure. But it took a hobbit with a special sword and a woman to take him down, sort of a perfect storm situation. Gandalf, the most powerful figure for Light, could not defeat the Witch King. Moiraine seems/seemed not to have similar restrictions/limitations. And, contrary to what Jonn would say, it is not because Moiraine is all powerful, it is that the Forsaken are for some reason weaker by comparison.

 

Here we have a murder mystery because any number of people, including some non-credited darkfriend who could have killed Asmo. Again certainly not David v. Goliath. More like bug v. windshield. Look at how the WoT baddies have been defeated. It doesn't take much.

Look at Moggy: Nyn and Brigitte? How about Graendal. The way you see her, she could be defeated by post-stilled Suian and Bela. Any resonable Light combination will do.

 

I don't need a overdose of realism in a fantasy epic. I just want the bad guys to be BAD. And the path to victory to be difficult enough to be worth the trip.

[Guest cwestervelt]

CW: your points are well taken' date=' but seem to validate my point.

 

Sure, the realism is great, but this is also an epic, and a balanced battle between good and evil is to be expected. If Good romps to victory at TG, will you be happy, or wonder if something is missing?

 

And again with the Nazgul and Vader, what fear is Graendal inspiring? Some would believe her incapable of killing a powerless traitor. I do not see much fear being inspired by the lot of them, more like a "Where's Waldo" type of curiosity with the likes of Mesaana and Demandred, but nothing like the fear you ascribe to the others. I am rereading EotW now, and the dreams Rand, Mat and Perrin have with Ishy starring in them are pretty fierce. 10 books later, the Forsaken don't seem fierce at all.

 

Your point about the Witch King also corroborates my argument. David v. Goliath to be sure. But it took a hobbit with a special sword and a woman to take him down, sort of a perfect storm situation.

 

Here we have a murder mystery because any number of people, including some non-credited darkfriend who could have killed Asmo. Look at how the WoT baddies have been defeated. It doesn't take much.

Look at Moggy: Nyn and Brigitte? How about Graendal. The way you see her, she could be defeated by post-stilled Suian and Bela.

 

I don't need a overdose of realism in a fantasy epic. I just want the bad guys to be BAD.[/quote']

 

The way things stand now, good will not romp over evil at Tarmon Gaidon. If Tarmon Gaidon were called today, good will lose. There is no unified side of good that is ready to fight the Dark One and his Trolloc hordes. The good side is still busy with their own petty differences. Even the Borderlanders, the nations that must be the first line of defence, aren't aligned with Rand.

 

No awe inspiring fear? In book 1, Rand, Mat and Perrin where terrified by the very thought of any of the Forsaken, let alone the fact that one of them, claiming to be the Dark One himself, was in their dreams. That is a very natural reaction with all of their knowledge coming from legends and stories.

 

Now, after 10 more book later, you have a natural progression away from the awe inspiring personna that people had as a result of only hearing stories and legends. Already by the end of the first book, Rand and his friends had seen that these legendary figures are not the gods stories make of them. They make mistakes, bigger than most people because of their pride and over confidence. They are still mortal, they can be killed like everyone else. They've seen the real thing, and it isn't all that much.

 

You didn't fully understand what I meant by seeing the same thing occurring with the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings. At the start of the books, no one, Hobbit's included would have had the courage to stand up to the Nazgul. They were seen as badder than bad. By the time of the battle for Gondor, events had shown the Nazgul to be fallible. Time after time, they had failed at there tasks. From the beginning they couldn't even stop four hobbits trying to escape the shire alone. There was no reason to expect them to perform major feats of badness anymore because the events in the story had shown them for what they were, and not for what people believed they were.

 

The whole point of my statements is that the villains you talk about as being ultra bad guys, were never able to live up to the personna that they started with. The fear that I ascribe to them was always an initial fear, based on people's beliefs. By the end, the reality had started to outway that fear. Jordan has done the same progression with the Forsaken, just in a more visible manner.

 

You say you want the bad guys to be bad. I would rather have the bad guys be believable.

 

Oh, and concerning Graendal, right now she would be defeated by Suian riding Bela. It would be a route infact because Graendal would run away before Siuan and Bela even arrive for the fight. She's already all but said she's going to abandon her current location at the first sign anyone has found her out is coming for her.

[havoc110]

Since quotes seem broken, I won't use them, but refer to last 2 paragraphs or CW's last post.

 

If I want realism, I can watch the news.(yeah, i know, i know, but that is another argument altogether...)

 

I would rather believe that Graendal would choose to add Suian to her "collection" (is she pretty enough, but she should qualify on being a former AmS alone) and then send Bela back under some nasty Compulsion, rather than turn and run.

 

I know this is another thread as well, but do you think TG will be fought on the ground? I mean, sure there will be a big battle, but typically the "ground battle" is just a lot of background noise while our hero does his hero bit.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Wanting realism (a well written book), and wanting reality (the news, supposedly) are not the same thing. Realism allows for the impossible provided its believable within the context of the story. Barring miracles, reality doesn't allow for the impossible. With all of the ages come and go and story becomes legend, and legend becomes myth that we see at the start of each book, the actuality of the Forsaken provides realism and makes for a believable tale.

 

You are entitled to believe what you choose to believe. Unfortunately, the way the stories have progressed, you are not likely to be satisfied with how it ends.

 

This is really a bad thread for this discussion. There is little left of Asmodean's murder right now. There would probably be a lot more input if it was on its own. Too bad. :cry:

[havoc110]

Well, maybe we can hi-jack the thread for something useful, at least.

 

But as for realism, what, besides your personal preference, makes either:

 

A) a badass who is really a badass

 

and

 

b) someone who is perceived as a badass but time has distorted the views so they really aren't badasses at all (and possibly never were)

 

any MORE real than the other.

 

 

I submit that I am not really talking about personal preference or expectations, but a real disconnect between the Forsakens' personas and their actions, one that has become increasingly more pronounced as the story progresses.

 

I mean even if she was just a psychiatrist gone bad, she still has mentioned that she might be Nae'blis, and how does that equate with running away in the face of a stilled AS riding a shaggy mare? That's your realism?

 

Look up Forsaken in the glossaries of EotW and KoD. You may claim that the differences reflect an chance in the reader's perception, put in place (intentionally) by RJ.

 

But what if that were not the case?

 

And, realism aside (or depending on your point of view, front and center) what is important is that somewhere in this epic struggle is the concept that GOOD CAN LOSE. Now we can construct a lot of probable endings, but that is not the point. Sure, we want light to win, and we expect light to win, but the point is that it cannot be a foregone conclusion.

You need realism/believability in the overall struggle as well. Perhaps moreso than in individual characters.

 

By diminishing the forces of Dark, (with exception of SH whose power is ascending), RJ treads close to making it too easy. Do you imagine Moiraine returning in Light's darkest hour? Not at present. Not to mention Moiraine's return is already a foregone conclusion. I am looking for more realism on the grand scale, not on the small scale. It has to get a bit darker for it to become more "realistic" for me.

 

So your argument for realism is similar to mine against realism.

 

BTW, if you think we should start up a new thread, we can move all recent posts to a new thread.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Where is the disconnect? Not all the Forsaken were feared for their Power in the Age of Legends, they were feared for they attrocities that were committed under their orders. By the end of the Third Age, the reasons these people were so feared was long forgotten. They didn't remember anything more about any of the 13 Forsaken than the names people gave to them. People thought the Forsaken were sealed away intentionally so they figured they must have been something super bad. We later find out the fact they were sealed up in the Bore is the only reason their names were remembered and that sealing was pure happenstance. That is what makes them true legendary figures.

 

In the case of Graendal, why would you expect any serious action from her? She is all about seeking the ultimate personnal pleasure. She is the ultimate hedonist. Unless they are forced to that type of character isn't someone who is going to take any kind of serious action as the would be forced to step out of there personal comforts. Trying to make Graendal more than what we have seen just doesn't work.

 

Graendal wouldn't realize it was just a now weak, formerly stilled Aes Sedai on a shaggy mare that she was running from. She has no intention of being around long enough to find that out.

 

Sure she mentioned that she might become Nae'blis. She also mentions that the Dark One might intend to make Rand Nae'blis. She is also conned into thinking Sammael was declared Nae'blis. That all happens within a single book.

[havoc110]

The disconnect is simple: Where are those people that committed those atrocities?

 

A) You were allegedly an AoL badass. OK, maybe not the most powerful, but powerful nonetheless.

 

B) You've been buried for a long time.

 

C) Your only reward is to either stand just below the DO and become immortal and rule in his name, or die trying.

 

So where are they now, hiding under rocks? Huh, clearly it doesn't add up. And the further the story goes, the more the Forsaken are depicted as simpering wusses.

 

Again, I ask, is this realism? I expect more from a Siegmund Freud gone bad. Especially since what we seem to have is Jessica Rabbit meets Heidi Fleiss. The same applies to all the Forsaken.

 

Graendal says that they are more than human. There has not been any Forsaken POV to either explain off or minimalize their labels as "Chosen". Just the opposite in fact. Asmo had a great chance just before he was offed to put forth just such an account. But none of them ever have.

 

With the exception of SH, they still stand highest in the Dark depth chart. Where is there any hint of their past selves? What could be used to be put into stories to frighten children in the next Age?

Before there was torture and murder on large scales. Nothing like that in the Current Age.

 

That's the thing I don't get CW. You build a good case about Greandal et. al. being overhyped, how the passage of time has made them into much more than they were, (I don't disagree with any of that btw) but fail to acknowledge that the epic struggle could be suffering because of lack of a credible Dark side.

[Graendals favourite]

I'd think it seems the Forsaken are doing nothing, but it only seems like that. We've got very few povs from the Forsaken that would indicate clearly what they are doing and planning. That is realisism, the good guys don't have spies among the dark side, they don't even know where they are.

 

In the word of Aviendha, think what is the worst thing the enemy could do. Perhaps they are doing exactly that. And perhaps they are good enough not to let the good guys know what it is. We are put in pretty much the same situation as the good guys.

 

The bad guys however have a network of darkfriends, which means they have spies everywhere. They can figure out the best way to injure the Light-forces. And they do not do badly, the world is now a mess compared to the beginning of EotW. Rahvin's work is only now being undone, and he died early.

 

As to Graendal, well she had always been at the top amongst the Shadow (with Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, someone else I don't recall). Anyone can die in a duel, there's no reason for her to risk her plans in a duel. She's not a duelist anyway, neither is Demandred and co. She operates on a big scale, and if she needs to change her residence to say Mayene, then why not if she can operate things from there just as well. Arad Doman is already in chaos, and Rand will have to concentrate his forces there to untangle it, leaving the rest of the world bare.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Havoc, your missing the key point.

 

There was nothing that survived the Breaking to say why the 13 were bound in Shayol Ghul. There was nothing that survived the breaking that said why they were so feared. The only thing that survived the breaking was their names, and that they ended up bound. The fact that there were more than 13 Forsaken didn't even survive.

 

Then you come to the next 3000 years. People know the names, but the don't know why they know the names. So they start making up stories, and Legend is Born.

 

Ishamael comes for boys who do not tell their mothers the truth. Lanfear waits in the night for boys who do not go to bed when they are supposed to

The Dragon Reborn Chapter 6: "The Hunt Begins" Page 56

 

Those are activities aren't going to hold people in thrawl for ever. They aren't reflective of what they Forsaken had been doing. The only purpose is that it keeps the name alive, and stimulates the imagination. Like Sandars salt and cooking oil, the imagination comes up with a much more horrifying image than the person telling the tale (or lack there of) could conjur up.

 

Graendal's little collection isn't an attrocity? She is trying to do the same thing in Arad Doman as she did before the War of Power. Incite riots and stir up trouble from within. She just overplayed her hand because she never realizes she isn't as subtle as she thinks she is. She underestimated the "primitives" and allowed Ituralde to start operating under his initiative much like happened with her and Sammael.

 

The Forsaken, mentally and physically are still capable of committing the attrocities they did before. The reason they don't is they no longer have the position and authority needed to allow them to. Their attrocities were, to a large extent, committed in areas that were openly governed by them, and where thus openly under the Shadow's control.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'd think it seems the Forsaken are doing nothing, but it only seems like that. We've got very few povs from the Forsaken that would indicate clearly what they are doing and planning. That is realisism, the good guys don't have spies among the dark side, they don't even know where they are.

 

In the word of Aviendha, think what is the worst thing the enemy could do. Perhaps they are doing exactly that. And perhaps they are good enough not to let the good guys know what it is. We are put in pretty much the same situation as the good guys.

 

The bad guys however have a network of darkfriends, which means they have spies everywhere. They can figure out the best way to injure the Light-forces. And they do not do badly, the world is now a mess compared to the beginning of EotW. Rahvin's work is only now being undone, and he died early.

 

As to Graendal, well she had always been at the top amongst the Shadow (with Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, someone else I don't recall). Anyone can die in a duel, there's no reason for her to risk her plans in a duel. She's not a duelist anyway, neither is Demandred and co. She operates on a big scale, and if she needs to change her residence to say Mayene, then why not if she can operate things from there just as well. Arad Doman is already in chaos, and Rand will have to concentrate his forces there to untangle it, leaving the rest of the world bare.

 

You acredit too much of the trouble in Arad Domon to Graendal. They were in chaos long before there is any evidence that Graendal came on scene. Her attempts to promote that chaos actually resulted in Ituralde getting the Dragonsworn to operate under his control rather than in opposition to him. How is that success on her part?

[Graendals favourite]

Well, yea I agree there, they were powerful in their own time, but they can't do all of it alone, suddenly in a world that is new to them. Not like the legends they are supposed to be. Though of course they are very powerful people.

 

Yea, I seem to remember there were something like a hundred Chosen, at some point, a better part cut down by themselves. I think in a blog entry RJ named five Chosen who had always been at top, and the BWB is indicative, like Moghedien being effective with her network of spies and turning people in key positions to act for the shadow without their knowing. But yea, not much is known.

 

Well the attrocities are perhaps more a leisure activity to them, I'm not sure how much it effects the war. However, Ituralde acted according to the letter she sent him the King's name: compare WH New Alliances and CoT: Prologue. Nothing has indicated the events that have happened would have displeased her.

 

I take it the weakening of social order is very good for the Last Battle, if there's a horde of Trollocs coming, then there's less people who are able to fight them.

[Graendals favourite]

You acredit too much of the trouble in Arad Domon to Graendal. They were in chaos long before there is any evidence that Graendal came on scene. Her attempts to promote that chaos actually resulted in Ituralde getting the Dragonsworn to operate under his control rather than in opposition to him. How is that success on her part?

 

Well, Asmodean indicated in FoH that Graendal had been in AD, and then that she'd be unlikely to stay in the current troubles. So she very well might have started there let's say around Falme, the same time Sammael and Be'lal started operating I think.

 

The land has already been weakened. Now Ituralde nor the other nobles no longer respond to the King, and general disorder has been established. The next part is to entangle AD in a war with the Seanchan, while the Dragonsworn returned to trouble Tarabon, increasing chaos there.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Weakening? Ituralde has consolidated all of the individual factions scattered across Arad Doman into one faction. That isn't weakening. He began doing this when it was apparent that the orders he was receiving from the King (therefore Graendal) where too contradictory.

[havoc110]

Sure, a lot of political turmoil, but in the end, so what? When the climactic struggles have come along, it has been one Light victory after another.

 

What will come of all Graendal's work in Arad Doman, especially considering there's only one book left to come?

 

Look at the environment created for the Forsaken to operate unimpeded in, the WT split, with one faction obsessed with Rand, and the other trying to unify the Tower again.

 

The only opposition the Forsaken have really had EVER, is Moiraine, Eg, Nyn, Elayne, and Rand.

 

And look how far it has gotten them after 11 books.

[Graendals favourite]

The contradictory orders created damage to the country, so that the dragonsworn could not be defeated. Now the Seanchan are coming. Perhaps if they are united, the Domani, they are united under her.

 

 

Yea the Taraboners go back to Tarabon to trouble the Seanchan there.

[Graendals favourite]

I can't say I'd know Graendal's plans are succeeding, but certainly it's too early to say for sure.

 

I think now Rand is getting distracted big time into Arad Doman, well the last place he needs to get to his side, but will he be stuck there while the Last Battle surprises him?

 

I don't think the Shadow needs, to win, to have openly Shadow nations yet, if such were possible even. They have lost in the climatic fights, but the climaxes may become beside the point if everything else falls for the Light. Like, even Shara has been put into turmoil, and the Amayar gone (Mesaana's activities, through Alviarin?)