one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would tier the info and clues. Undisputable facts that can't be meant to be anything other than what they say in the book would be first tier. i.e. Asmodean died in the pantry. 2nd tier and beyond would be more suggestive evidence that various readers might have interpreted differently. The key is to build something which you can use to cross-reference data quickly to eliminate down to the core data.

 

It might still come out that there aren't enough agreeable facts for us all to come to the same conclusion.

 

Um... Your tier 1 example is half tier 2. The only part that is definite fact is that Asmodean died. We don't even have proof it was in a pantry. :lol:

[Jedimuppet]

I would tier the info and clues. Undisputable facts that can't be meant to be anything other than what they say in the book would be first tier. i.e. Asmodean died in the pantry. 2nd tier and beyond would be more suggestive evidence that various readers might have interpreted differently. The key is to build something which you can use to cross-reference data quickly to eliminate down to the core data.

 

It might still come out that there aren't enough agreeable facts for us all to come to the same conclusion.

 

Um... Your tier 1 example is half tier 2. The only part that is definite fact is that Asmodean died. We don't even have proof it was in a pantry. :lol:

 

Sure, we do. He opened the door, said You!, and died.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I like the idea of compiling the "facts".

 

But, like CW just pointed out, we can't even seem to agree on what is "fact."

 

To me, the fact is that he went off in search of wine. He opened a door, took one step, froze, uttered the, "You? No!" and died.

 

We don't know how far he walked before coming to that door. We don't know whether he turned any corners. We don't know whether the doorway was visible from the garden. We don't know what lay behind the doorway. Was it just a service hallway or was it a pantry?

 

To my mind, the fact that Jordan did not specify what lay beyond that doorway means it is immaterial. But, those who favor an ambush scenario may not see it that way. It almost needs to be the pantry itself in order to lend the ambush theory credence. If it's just another hallway, that opens Asmo's death up to a chance encounter.

 

In short, attractive as the "compiling facts" idea is to me personally, I don't give it much chance of changing the mind of anyone who is already invested in any particular theory.

 

I think this is borne out by JediMuppet's post immediately above. He can't even entertain the idea that Asmo did not find the pantry behind the first door he opened, unlikely as that probability may be.

 

Graendal's Favorite has pounded his own particular view of things into immutable truths. Asmo died, therefore it could only have been at the hands of a Forsaken, a female Forsaken, thus Graendal. He can't back up far enough from what he has convinced himself to see that there are other logical explanations for what he sees as truths.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would tier the info and clues. Undisputable facts that can't be meant to be anything other than what they say in the book would be first tier. i.e. Asmodean died in the pantry. 2nd tier and beyond would be more suggestive evidence that various readers might have interpreted differently. The key is to build something which you can use to cross-reference data quickly to eliminate down to the core data.

 

It might still come out that there aren't enough agreeable facts for us all to come to the same conclusion.

 

Um... Your tier 1 example is half tier 2. The only part that is definite fact is that Asmodean died. We don't even have proof it was in a pantry. :lol:

 

Sure' date=' we do. He opened the door, said You!, and died.

J[/quote']

 

You allowed personal interpretation to affect your determination of what is and isn't hard fact. You then made a statement that is factually inaccurate and is therefore not Tier 1.

 

Asmodean says, "You? No!" before he died. The loss of the word "No!" and the changing of "You" from a question to an exclamation changes the relevance and context of the quote. The "You? No!" implies he was innitially shocked/confused and the realization he was going to die was not immediate but was triggered by an action of his attacker. Just saying "You!" does not convey the initial confusion.

 

Additionally, The Fires of Heaven says that he opened the door hoping to find his way to a pantry, but it never describes the room that he ended in. The odds are just as good (probably better) that it was a door that lead from a main area of the palace to the service corridors that Bob mentioned. He would need to find those before he could find a pantry.

 

My point is that no one is being objective enough to determine what is 1st Tier, 2nd Tier ... nth Tier evidience. Even in the initial examples provided, personal oppinion and assumption are being added to the limited factual evidence provided by the book.

[Guest Egwene]

I think we could come to a concensus on this.

 

Tier 1:

-Asmodean was looking for the wine cellar (use words from the book)

-Asmodean died (again use the exact words from the book here)

 

Tier 2:

option A - the door oppened into the wine cellar

option B - the door did not open into the wine cellar

 

You could lay it out almost like a family tree. Each fact leading to options and suboptions...

[Jedimuppet]

I think we could come to a concensus on this.

 

Tier 1:

-Asmodean was looking for the wine cellar (use words from the book)

-Asmodean died (again use the exact words from the book here)

 

Tier 2:

option A - the door oppened into the wine cellar

option B - the door did not open into the wine cellar

 

You could lay it out almost like a family tree. Each fact leading to options and suboptions...

 

I'll concede that it's *possible*. I think, however, if we dissect to that level, we can't possibly hope to agree on any details except the fact that Asmodean died, and said what he did.

J

[Kadere]

I really don't think what he said or where he said it has much of anything to do with who killed him. I've read that section a billion times, and there is just about no evidence in there. The answer has to be earlier in the book, or in LoC. Reading those 5 paragraphs over and over and over and over again, is just going to give you a headache, not the answer.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think we could come to a concensus on this.

 

Tier 1:

-Asmodean was looking for the wine cellar (use words from the book)

-Asmodean died (again use the exact words from the book here)

 

Tier 2:

option A - the door oppened into the wine cellar

option B - the door did not open into the wine cellar

 

You could lay it out almost like a family tree. Each fact leading to options and suboptions...

 

I'll concede that it's *possible*. I think' date=' however, if we dissect to that level, we can't possibly hope to agree on any details except the fact that Asmodean died, and said what he did.

J[/quote']

 

That's all we agree on now. :lol:

[Guest cwestervelt]

I really don't think what he said or where he said it has much of anything to do with who killed him. I've read that section a billion times' date=' and there is just about no evidence in there. The answer has to be earlier in the book, or in LoC. Reading those 5 paragraphs over and over and over and over again, is just going to give you a headache, not the answer.[/quote']

 

I disagree and think that what he said is very important. The "You? No!" tells us everything we know about the actual killing. From those two words we can extrapolate the following.

 

1) Asmodean recognized the person who killed him.

2) Asmodean did not believe his killer was someone who who could be in that place at that time.

3) Asmodean was shocked and confused but was not immediately afraid for his life. Those two words read with a definite pause between the recognition of the killer and the realization Asmodean was going to die.

 

The limited information on the location also tells us that Asmodean's killing was a crime of opportunity and not one of premeditation. The killer was someone who had reason to kill Asmodean, but, because of the randomness of the location could not have planned the hit.

[Jedimuppet]

I really don't think what he said or where he said it has much of anything to do with who killed him. I've read that section a billion times' date=' and there is just about no evidence in there. The answer has to be earlier in the book, or in LoC. Reading those 5 paragraphs over and over and over and over again, is just going to give you a headache, not the answer.[/quote']

 

I disagree and think that what he said is very important. The "You? No!" tells us everything we know about the actual killing. From those two words we can extrapolate the following.

 

1) Asmodean recognized the person who killed him.

2) Asmodean did not believe his killer was someone who who could be in that place at that time.

3) Asmodean was shocked and confused but was not immediately afraid for his life. Those two words read with a definite pause between the recognition of the killer and the realization Asmodean was going to die.

 

The limited information on the location also tells us that Asmodean's killing was a crime of opportunity and not one of premeditation. The killer was someone who had reason to kill Asmodean, but, because of the randomness of the location could not have planned the hit.

 

I disagree about that. He might have just been saying NO because he realized his game was up and it was his last denial. People fall from buildings saying No, not because they didn't think they would fall, but because they're denying their fate.

 

I think he pretty instantaneously realized he would die. First the shocked, you? and the ultimate realization that meant the death of him, after everything he had done went through his mind.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're both right.

 

CW is correct when he says:

1) Asmodean recognized the person who killed him.

2) Asmodean did not believe his killer was someone who who could be in that place at that time.

 

I think Jmuppet is right when he says:

I think he pretty instantaneously realized he would die. First the shocked, you? and the ultimate realization that meant the death of him, after everything he had done went through his mind.

 

That leads me to further agree with CW that it was a crime of opportunity brought about entirely by a chance meeting with a mortal enemy.

 

I further agree with Kadere. The answer isn't in the passage describing the deaths. What solid clues there are are laid out earlier in Fires of Heaven.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think you're both right.

 

CW is correct when he says:

1) Asmodean recognized the person who killed him.

2) Asmodean did not believe his killer was someone who who could be in that place at that time.

 

I think Jmuppet is right when he says:

I think he pretty instantaneously realized he would die. First the shocked' date=' you? and the ultimate realization that meant the death of him, after everything he had done went through his mind.

[/quote']

 

That leads me to further agree with CW that it was a crime of opportunity brought about entirely by a chance meeting with a mortal enemy.

 

I further agree with Kadere. The answer isn't in the passage describing the deaths. What solid clues there are are laid out earlier in Fires of Heaven.

 

Two little words, so much dissention... :cry:

 

It looks like we have differing oppinions of what "shock" meens in this situation. The image that I get is the type of shock that generates the "you look like you've seen a ghost" comment. The description of the blood draining from his face and the "You?" as a confused question fits that image. It is a numbing shock rather than an electrifying jolt. Until you get that "No!" there isn't the type of panic that would come with knowledge of being a dead man. I still convinced that, whoever he saw, it was not someone he expected to kill him on the spot. If he immediately knew the person was going to kill him, the reation would be more of "You!" or "No!" We would see immediate panic and not confusion.

 

BTW Bob, I said a crime of opportunity, but I didn't say it it was a purely chance encounter. I think there was some meddling going on that provided the opportunity...

[Jedimuppet]

I think you're both right.

 

CW is correct when he says:

1) Asmodean recognized the person who killed him.

2) Asmodean did not believe his killer was someone who who could be in that place at that time.

 

I think Jmuppet is right when he says:

I think he pretty instantaneously realized he would die. First the shocked' date=' you? and the ultimate realization that meant the death of him, after everything he had done went through his mind.

[/quote']

 

That leads me to further agree with CW that it was a crime of opportunity brought about entirely by a chance meeting with a mortal enemy.

 

I further agree with Kadere. The answer isn't in the passage describing the deaths. What solid clues there are are laid out earlier in Fires of Heaven.

 

Two little words, so much dissention... :cry:

 

It looks like we have differing oppinions of what "shock" meens in this situation. The image that I get is the type of shock that generates the "you look like you've seen a ghost" comment. The description of the blood draining from his face and the "You?" as a confused question fits that image. It is a numbing shock rather than an electrifying jolt. Until you get that "No!" there isn't the type of panic that would come with knowledge of being a dead man. I still convinced that, whoever he saw, it was not someone he expected to kill him on the spot. If he immediately knew the person was going to kill him, the reation would be more of "You!" or "No!" We would see immediate panic and not confusion.

 

BTW Bob, I said a crime of opportunity, but I didn't say it it was a purely chance encounter. I think there was some meddling going on that provided the opportunity...

 

Or maybe his mind was reeling with should i run, should i fight...there goes my tuft of grass..etc. You? didn't strike me as confused; more as a recognition of an inevitability come to pass.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Graendal's Favorite has pounded his own particular view of things into immutable truths. Asmo died, therefore it could only have been at the hands of a Forsaken, a female Forsaken, thus Graendal. He can't back up far enough from what he has convinced himself to see that there are other logical explanations for what he sees as truths.

 

Bob, I myself wouldn't frase it quite like that. Whatever the tufts of grass, I will grasp the tree branch. So I have reasons. Not that other explanations don't exist, but that they are dismissable to the point where an alien killing Asmo is as likely. However, since everyone here has heard my views, and I haven't shifted an inch, there's no point in me going on with it like a madman. Others than me can have constructive discussion here, which I may also gladly read, so let them go at it.

[General Tam]

I think that Sammael is the one who killed Asmodean. I only have one reason as to why but I think it is a very good reason. I beleive that Sammael killed Asmodean because he was trying to make a truce with Rand and didn't want another of the forsaken getting in the way of this. Although he never actually made his truce.

 

-General Tam

[rd2000]

Sammael's truce was a farce. He only wanted the other Forsaken to believe he wanted a truce, so he could maneuver himself into a stronger position against Rand and the other Forsaken.

[General Tam]

if Sammael was trying to convince the other forsaken that he was trying to get a truce with Rand and didn't want another forsaken to get in the way why wouldn't he kill Asmodean? Wouldn't this make them beleive him more?

-General Tam

[Guest cwestervelt]

if Sammael was trying to convince the other forsaken that he was trying to get a truce with Rand and didn't want another forsaken to get in the way why wouldn't he kill Asmodean? Wouldn't this make them beleive him more?

-General Tam

 

You lost me there.

 

How would killing Asmodean keep the other Foresaken from getting in the way? It isn't like they were actively gunning for Asmodean. Sammael actually was trying to get a truce with Rand. He knew the plan to ambush Rand in Illian failed, and he was running operating in self preservation mode. He knew he was next. The truce only became a farse when he used it to hoodwink Graendal into believing that he actually succeeded.

[LostRkive]

Ok, honestly I'm not exactly positive as to who killed Asmodean but, I don't think it was Graendel, actually the only forsaken that would even seem to fit the bill would be Demandred, but there isn't a lot of evidence to support him either.

 

Against Graendel, honestly it is a bit out of character for her, why on earth would she be so close to Rahvin, especially during a situation where Rand is going after him? Later when Cyndane and Moghedion approached her, it was mentioned that she was conspicously absent from the DO's affairs. Granted, at the time of his death she might have been more inclined to dally, I sincerely doubt that once Rahvin was destroyed, that she or any other forsaken that could be sensed using the power would have been inclined to stick around to kill him.

 

Also, on a side note, Asmo's non-reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean he had to be killed by the one power or the true power. His bonds were cut, if the DO could reincarnate people not bound to him, then he would have already been free (simply reincarnate Lews Therin into a body in Shayol Ghul, and forcefully turn him for example). That said, any person, whether shadar haran, a forsaken or even a minor dark friend could have killed him, and it still would have been a final death.

[Inara]

correct me if i'm wrong, buti didnt think that asmo knew shadar haran or what he was in relation to the DO. he seems to be above all the forsaken, moggy certainly didnt know who he was before he was mind trapped, and i never got the impression that asmo spent his spare hours visiting with the DO.

this means that he most definatly did not kill asmo, on the recognition clue alone.

[LostRkive]

Shadar Haran is still an enigma at the moment, true moghe didn't immediately recognize him, but that doesn't necessarily mean Asmo wouldn't. But I'm not really sure that Shadar was the one that killed him either, only that it was someone Asmo didn't expect, and it seems to me that he was expecting one of the forsaken to kill him. My earlier posting was just to open the door for the idea that his death did not necessarily require the use of the one power, it could have been Morindin (even though technically you could say he is a forsaken) as much as Shadar, or perhaps even a dark friend that Asmo was familiar with.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think that Sammael is the one who killed Asmodean. -General Tam

 

The one important thing that your theory has going for it is that Sam is the only one to have expressed a real desire to kill Asmo.

 

What works against that is that Sam seems to have had a bit of a fetish about only fighting on his terms and on terrain of his choice. It would be against character for him to venture into the enemy stronghold in person. He'd be much more likely to send a proxy than to go to Caemlyn himself.

[Jedimuppet]

I think that Sammael is the one who killed Asmodean. -General Tam

 

The one important thing that your theory has going for it is that Sam is the only one to have expressed a real desire to kill Asmo.

 

What works against that is that Sam seems to have had a bit of a fitish about only fighting on his terms and on terrain of his choice. It would be against character for him to venture into the enemy stronghold in person. He'd be much more likely to send a proxy than to go to Caemlyn himself.

 

Sammael also appears to be ignorant of the fact that Asmo is dead.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

CW -

 

The interval between opening the door and his death is VERY short.

 

I think it was a case of shock at who he saw freezing him in his tracks and almost simultaneous realization that his goose was cooked.

 

So, who would he be that astonished to see?

 

Someone he thought was dead? Lanfear fits that, and so does Moiraine. Who else fits?

 

( Yeah, there's a new theory about to arrive shortly... I've been keeping it in reserve because I'm not sure even I believe it. )

[Jedimuppet]

CW -

 

The interval between opening the door and his death is VERY short.

 

I think it was a case of shock at who he saw freezing him in his tracks and almost simultaneous realization that his goose was cooked.

 

So' date=' who would he be that astonished to see?

 

Someone he thought was dead? Lanfear fits that, and so does Moiraine. Who else fits?

 

( Yeah, there's a new theory about to arrive shortly... I've been keeping it in reserve because I'm not sure even I believe it. )[/quote']

 

I think anyone who he knew was about to kill him would qualify for the You portion of his statement. You have to remember he expected to die; it was only a matter of whom...hence You - you are going to kill me...aw no.

J