one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Kadere]

Ishameal is dead and Moridin is the reincarnation of Ishameal, thus Asmodean would never recognize Moridin as being Ishameal because they are two different bodies. Mogehiden didn't recognize Moridin as Ishmameal, and neither have a couple of other Forsaken. Plus RJ has said that we've been introduced to the killer, we hadn't been introduced to Moridin at the time of Asmodean's killing. The DO hadn't even named an Nea'blis yet, which probably means that Moridin didn't exist at the time. Plus Aran'gar and Osan'gar weren't reborn until after Asmodean's death, while Ishameal hadn't been killed till long after Agnoir and Bathamel's death, which means he wouldn't have been reincarnated till much later, after the birth of Aran'gar and Osan'gar. True that the TP wouldn't be detected, but there's no way that Moridin even existed at the death of Asmodean.

[rd2000]

Doesn't one of the forsaken mention somewhere in the books that they hardly used the TP and NEVER did since Moridin was nae-bliss? That kinda indicates that some of them had access to, and used the TP before Moridin came along and was given exclusive usage of it.

[Kadere]

yeah, I think that was either Graendal or Sammeal, I can't remember.

[Jonn]

quote]

 

I have a feeling she understands how easy it is for Rand to snap. I think she would suspect he just lost it when Asmo got cheeky or something' date=' not that he calculated his death.

J[/quote']

 

That's a moot point as it never happened anyway.

 

Still, we're not talking about Rand killing Asmodea. We're talking about Moiraine. How would she get an opportunity to kil Asmodean when Asmodean was basically hanging onto Rand like a lifeline? Otherwise Asmodean was careful to be in plain sight of others, or in a secure podition. His guard was up as well. Let's take that into account.

 

Despite Asmodean's fears at the time, his guard was down after the Caemlyn battle. He figured all of the close threats to him were eliminated or would be scared off by what had just happened.

He's a survivalist if anything, with no great talents other than his ability to do just that. This is a guy who by all accounts should have been dead three thousand years ago. How does he manage that if he isn't a keen reader of danger?

 

This was no ordinary hit is what I'm saying. It would be spoken about at length, if it was common knowledge that one of the Chosen did it. That card is one that must be played, but as it hasn't been, I can only conclude that none of the Forsaken pulled the trigger.

[Jonn]

RJ directly said that it wasn't Moridin. Someone mentioned to him the Moridin meaning death bit and he basically came close to laughing in the guy's face.

It's tacky, is what the general thought on that theory went.

Moridin is out.

[Jedimuppet]

quote]

 

I have a feeling she understands how easy it is for Rand to snap. I think she would suspect he just lost it when Asmo got cheeky or something' date=' not that he calculated his death.

J[/quote']

 

That's a moot point as it never happened anyway.

 

Still, we're not talking about Rand killing Asmodea. We're talking about Moiraine. How would she get an opportunity to kil Asmodean when Asmodean was basically hanging onto Rand like a lifeline? Otherwise Asmodean was careful to be in plain sight of others, or in a secure podition. His guard was up as well. Let's take that into account.

 

Despite Asmodean's fears at the time, his guard was down after the Caemlyn battle. He figured all of the close threats to him were eliminated or would be scared off by what had just happened.

He's a survivalist if anything, with no great talents other than his ability to do just that. This is a guy who by all accounts should have been dead three thousand years ago. How does he manage that if he isn't a keen reader of danger?

 

This was no ordinary hit is what I'm saying. It would be spoken about at length, if it was common knowledge that one of the Chosen did it. That card is one that must be played, but as it hasn't been, I can only conclude that none of the Forsaken pulled the trigger.

 

It's not moot; it's central to your rationale of why Moiraine would not have killed Asmo when she had the chance. You claim it would alert Lanfear, and I'm offering a counter to that. You can't stick to your points like that, and then when I offer a legitimate counterpoint, call it moot.

 

As far as it being common knowledge if a forsaken had done it, I think that's silly. They never talk or cooperate. I think we learned that at the end of WH.

 

J

[Logain Ablar]

I just don't see it in Moiraine's character to go behind Rand's back and blast Asmodean. If she wanted him dead(well, aside from him being one of the Forsaken) I think she would have raised more objections to Rand earlier on about keeping him around.

[Mad Season]

How long did it take for Rand and company to get to Cairhein from Rhuidean? Didn't Asmodean have his own tent most of the time? (I don't remember Aviendha, Rand and Asmodean hanging out at night)It's quite convenient that on this whole journey across the waste Asmodean never left Rand's side, and a few hours after Moirane goes through the doorway she kills him when hes alone.

 

And is there any reason Moiraine tells Rand she knows who Asmodean is hours before she kills him? I can't come up with any reason she would do that.

[rd2000]

And is there any reason Moiraine tells Rand she knows who Asmodean is hours before she kills him? I can't come up with any reason she would do that.

 

 

Moiraine was telling Rand that she knows what he's doing, and while she doesn't agree, she accepts his decision. Kinda like a mother cutting a son off her apron strings. It all goes with her final words "you will do well" She's giving up her role as his guide so he can make his own way. She probably knew her loss would be a terrible blow to him and wanted him to adjust more quickly. That is also why she didn't tell him she would be alive when everyone thought she was dead. So Rand wouldn't waste his time and maybe his life trying to rescue her. She knew already that Mat would have to be the one to rescue her, anyone else and they and she would die in the attempt, so not a word to Rand or he may die.

[Mad Season]

Yes I agree with that rd2000, sorry I wasn't very clear about my question. I was wondering why the Moiraine supporters think she mentioned Asmodean in that letter? I havn't read it in a while but I don't remember Asmodean's identity being essential to those points you just said.

[Ashandarei]

i don't really feel like reading 78 pages, so could one of you who has been participating in the discussion so far summarize each character's reasons to be asmo's killer and points against being asmo's killer? If you can, thanks, i appreciate it, if not, it's all good, i understand if you might not want to.

[Jonn]

quote]

 

I have a feeling she understands how easy it is for Rand to snap. I think she would suspect he just lost it when Asmo got cheeky or something' date=' not that he calculated his death.

J[/quote']

 

That's a moot point as it never happened anyway.

 

Still, we're not talking about Rand killing Asmodea. We're talking about Moiraine. How would she get an opportunity to kil Asmodean when Asmodean was basically hanging onto Rand like a lifeline? Otherwise Asmodean was careful to be in plain sight of others, or in a secure podition. His guard was up as well. Let's take that into account.

 

Despite Asmodean's fears at the time, his guard was down after the Caemlyn battle. He figured all of the close threats to him were eliminated or would be scared off by what had just happened.

He's a survivalist if anything, with no great talents other than his ability to do just that. This is a guy who by all accounts should have been dead three thousand years ago. How does he manage that if he isn't a keen reader of danger?

 

This was no ordinary hit is what I'm saying. It would be spoken about at length, if it was common knowledge that one of the Chosen did it. That card is one that must be played, but as it hasn't been, I can only conclude that none of the Forsaken pulled the trigger.

 

It's not moot; it's central to your rationale of why Moiraine would not have killed Asmo when she had the chance. You claim it would alert Lanfear, and I'm offering a counter to that. You can't stick to your points like that, and then when I offer a legitimate counterpoint, call it moot.

 

As far as it being common knowledge if a forsaken had done it, I think that's silly. They never talk or cooperate. I think we learned that at the end of WH.

 

J

 

Did I not just give you a counter-argument? If she suspected that Rand killed Asmodean, she would ask questions. Eventually she would catch on that Rand didn't kill Asmodean and she would have to be suspicious of the people in Rand's camp or of an outside source of interference in her schemes. Either way she would be suspicious and on guard, if not directly eyeing Moiraine herself.

 

It's moot because what you were suggesting is arguable, but ultimately besides the point.

 

So there you are.

[Jonn]

Yes I agree with that rd2000' date=' sorry I wasn't very clear about my question. I was wondering why the Moiraine supporters think she mentioned Asmodean in that letter? I havn't read it in a while but I don't remember Asmodean's identity being essential to those points you just said.[/quote']

 

She mentions Natael but not 'Asmodean' by name. The implication was rather clear though that she knew Rand was harbouring one of the forsaken as a teacher.

 

To answer Logain Albar: Moiraine at that point of the story was very aware that Rand was at a crucial point as a leader. He had to start relying on himself more and less on her, as she was about to take a bit of a vacation.

 

The distance she began to build away from him didn't give her much room to openly call Rand out on Jasin Natael. Confronting him openly or just executing Asmodean for that matter, would undermine Rand. It was at this time, up until he faced Rahvin, that Rand really felt that he needed Asmodean. After defeating Rahvin though, he began to really assert himself and became more decisive, even in his theory when using the saidin. When Asmodean was killed, it seemed like the right time to get rid of him. It made room for Lews Therin to be the sole provider of much of Rand's knowledge of the Power. Of course now, it seems like Rand has mostly forgotten about Asmodean and has moved on to real concerns without the distraction or the problem of dealing with a captive rival.

 

Moiraine's character fits the dillema. She will have managed to do what she set out to and still allow Rand to continue on his path without him ever really grasping the depth of her involvement in matters. That was her character from the beginning. She has long lived in an environment in which it's usually better not to explain everything in too much depth. Best to set the pieces in play and let the explanation come through the result, or maybe just let the result stand and perhaps the explanation will be better served to come later.

[rd2000]

Then why not bump him off right before, or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.

[Jonn]

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

I really don't know what you're getting at. If you cannot accept the theory, then don't. You're talking about boxers and drawing all kinds of lines away from the point.

 

If you had a fleeting glimpse of the future and you were not sure what path will lead you where...what are tyhe decisions you have to make? Hard ones. Decisions which you cannot be sure you will live to see the result. You must focus on the larger tasks first. Why risk your entire plan on the secondary targets, when you know you MUST be successful in hitting your primary task?

 

Hypothetically, if Moiraine had to shoose between the two Forsaken, and have surety of killing just the one...who would you focus on? I would think it would be Lanfear as she is by far the most dangerous.

 

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. Anyhow, The big picture is protecting Rand and eliminating the agents of the Shadow. It requires some guile to manipulate events, you don't just go in guns blazing unless you have the clear advantage. Moiraine is much to subtle to do something as foolish as telegraph her intentions for anyone to outright read. Killing Asmodean out in the open before taking care of Lanfear...Sorry, I have to be blunt, but that's a boneheaded approach to the task.

 

Just letting you all know. I'm out for about three weeks with limited access. Keep up the discussion. It's been fun.

 

Jon

[Jedimuppet]

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

I really don't know what you're getting at. If you cannot accept the theory, then don't. You're talking about boxers and drawing all kinds of lines away from the point.

 

If you had a fleeting glimpse of the future and you were not sure what path will lead you where...what are tyhe decisions you have to make? Hard ones. Decisions which you cannot be sure you will live to see the result. You must focus on the larger tasks first. Why risk your entire plan on the secondary targets, when you know you MUST be successful in hitting your primary task?

 

Hypothetically, if Moiraine had to shoose between the two Forsaken, and have surety of killing just the one...who would you focus on? I would think it would be Lanfear as she is by far the most dangerous.

 

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. Anyhow, The big picture is protecting Rand and eliminating the agents of the Shadow. It requires some guile to manipulate events, you don't just go in guns blazing unless you have the clear advantage. Moiraine is much to subtle to do something as foolish as telegraph her intentions for anyone to outright read. Killing Asmodean out in the open before taking care of Lanfear...Sorry, I have to be blunt, but that's a boneheaded approach to the task.

 

Just letting you all know. I'm out for about three weeks with limited access. Keep up the discussion. It's been fun.

 

Jon

 

Cool...have fun (if it's a vacation or whatever). Maybe we can move on to someone besides Moiraine. Anyone want to champion someone besides Moiraine or Graendal as the killer?

J

[rd2000]

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

I really don't know what you're getting at. If you cannot accept the theory, then don't. You're talking about boxers and drawing all kinds of lines away from the point.

 

If you had a fleeting glimpse of the future and you were not sure what path will lead you where...what are tyhe decisions you have to make? Hard ones. Decisions which you cannot be sure you will live to see the result. You must focus on the larger tasks first. Why risk your entire plan on the secondary targets, when you know you MUST be successful in hitting your primary task?

 

Hypothetically, if Moiraine had to shoose between the two Forsaken, and have surety of killing just the one...who would you focus on? I would think it would be Lanfear as she is by far the most dangerous.

 

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. Anyhow, The big picture is protecting Rand and eliminating the agents of the Shadow. It requires some guile to manipulate events, you don't just go in guns blazing unless you have the clear advantage. Moiraine is much to subtle to do something as foolish as telegraph her intentions for anyone to outright read. Killing Asmodean out in the open before taking care of Lanfear...Sorry, I have to be blunt, but that's a boneheaded approach to the task.

 

Just letting you all know. I'm out for about three weeks with limited access. Keep up the discussion. It's been fun.

 

Jon

 

Just letting you know, you have not convinced me with YOUR arguments. Present a better argument and maybe I'll be convinced.

 

If Moiraine knew she had to take out Asmodean and Lanfear, and knew that the confrotation with Lanfear was at a specific time and place, I think she would have gotten Asmo BEFORE facing Lanfear. Lanfear is much, much stronger than Moiraine, Asmo would be a much easier sneak kill. It would have been very easy to kill Asmo and not tip off Lanfear. Why risk facing them both at the same time? That could have been a possibility too. As I stated above, she KNEW she would be captive (and therefore not free to kill Asmo at her leisure) after her fight with Lanfear. If Asmo was a definite target for her to kill, she would have done it before facing Lanfear, afterwhich her freedom to move and fight would be heavily hampered to say the least.

 

Have a great vacation. :)

[Paradoxic]

I, as well, will be disappearing starting next week. Unfortunately, that's because I'm changing jobs and going to a location with no outside internet access. Since all my past posts have been during the work day, don't expect to see me again (well, maybe a little bit around the release of AMoL).

[Jedimuppet]

I' date=' as well, will be disappearing starting next week. Unfortunately, that's because I'm changing jobs and going to a location with no outside internet access. Since all my past posts have been during the work day, don't expect to see me again (well, maybe a little bit around the release of AMoL).[/quote']

 

Hah...I, too, post as an alternative to workday productivity :)

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

I really wasn't planning on posting on this thread any longer, but with the only other voice for Moiraine gone, and, to my mind, the question of why she wouldn't kill Asmodean before the docks not having been answered adequately, I felt compelled.

 

The simplest, and most obvious answer comes down to the probability of success at the docks. There were 3 possible outcomes.

 

1) Rand dies

2) Rand goes with Lanfear and becomes utterly devoted to her

3) Moiraine and Lanfear go through the door

 

Moiraine had, at best, a 1 in 3 chance of success. Based on her letter to Rand, she was concerned that the slightest difference from her vision would meen disaster. She took time to prepare the scene precisely, uncovering the Door after all that time, placing the Angreal just right so that Lanfear couldn't miss it. Moiraine was willing to give her enemy the meens of added strength to make sure things conformed to the path Moiraine chose. Nothing in that is speculation, it is all supported from the book.

 

Now I will speculate a bit. If Moiraine was shown the level of detail she appears to have, besides the presence of inanimate objects, she likely saw details concerning the participants. At the point where Kadere's wagon exploded, Rand is saying something to Asmodean. Asmodean was with Moiraine and Rand when they went to the docks. Concerning the other details, Moiraine was shown, she likely saw Asmodean in that vision. I think that is enough speculation at this point.

 

Moiraine had her vision of the docks before Asmodean came on stage. Assuming that the above speculation is accurate, Moiraine would have recognized he was significant the minute that they met up with Kadere. She may not have known exactly who he was, but she would know he was important. We do know that at some point, she learns that Jasin Natael is in fact the Foresaken Asmodean.

 

What are her options upon learing Natael's true identity:

 

1) Confront Rand

2) Asassination attempt on Natael

3) Nothing

 

She may have had more, but those are the major ones.

 

Confronting Rand is out. She is trying to get him to trust her, and trying to make him get rid of his only possible teacher isn't going to help her case.

 

Asassination attempt on Natael is out. This depends on the assumption that Moiraine did indeed see the participants of the events leading up to the docks as part of her vission. She would have seen herself in close proximaty to Asmodean immediately before Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon to pieces. With that knowledge, she cannot kill Asmodean in advance. If she does, she alters the only future that had a desirable outcome. In fact, by killing Asmodean in advance, the desired future that she was shown in the vision could not occur as Asmodean wouldn't have been present. That would either trigger a random 4th future, or forced them onto one of the other 2 paths. Moiraine may well have been shown that killing Asmodean was the catalyst that would set one of the other 2 futures in motion. After all, she was shown as unlikely things as her bedding Rand.

 

That leaves her the option of doing nothing until a later point in time.

[Jedimuppet]

I really wasn't planning on posting on this thread any longer' date=' but with the only other voice for Moiraine gone, and, to my mind, the question of why she wouldn't kill Asmodean before the docks not having been answered adequately, I felt compelled.

 

The simplest, and most obvious answer comes down to the probability of success at the docks. There were 3 possible outcomes.

 

1) Rand dies

2) Rand goes with Lanfear and becomes utterly devoted to her

3) Moiraine and Lanfear go through the door

 

Moiraine had, at best, a 1 in 3 chance of success. Based on her letter to Rand, she was concerned that the slightest difference from her vision would meen disaster. She took time to prepare the scene precisely, uncovering the Door after all that time, placing the Angreal just right so that Lanfear couldn't miss it. Moiraine was willing to give her enemy the meens of added strength to make sure things conformed to the path Moiraine chose. Nothing in that is speculation, it is all supported from the book.

 

Now I will speculate a bit. If Moiraine was shown the level of detail she appears to have, besides the presence of inanimate objects, she likely saw details concerning the participants. At the point where Kadere's wagon exploded, Rand is saying something to Asmodean. Asmodean was with Moiraine and Rand when they went to the docks. Concerning the other details, Moiraine was shown, she likely saw Asmodean in that vision. I think that is enough speculation at this point.

 

Moiraine had her vision of the docks before Asmodean came on stage. Assuming that the above speculation is accurate, Moiraine would have recognized he was significant the minute that they met up with Kadere. She may not have known exactly who he was, but she would know he was important. We do know that at some point, she learns that Jasin Natael is in fact the Foresaken Asmodean.

 

What are her options upon learing Natael's true identity:

 

1) Confront Rand

2) Asassination attempt on Natael

3) Nothing

 

She may have had more, but those are the major ones.

 

Confronting Rand is out. She is trying to get him to trust her, and trying to make him get rid of his only possible teacher isn't going to help her case.

 

Asassination attempt on Natael is out. This depends on the assumption that Moiraine did indeed see the participants of the events leading up to the docks as part of her vission. She would have seen herself in close proximaty to Asmodean immediately before Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon to pieces. With that knowledge, she [b']cannot kill Asmodean in advance[/b]. If she does, she alters the only future that had a desirable outcome. In fact, by killing Asmodean in advance, the desired future that she was shown in the vision could not occur as Asmodean wouldn't have been present. That would either trigger a random 4th future, or forced them onto one of the other 2 paths. Moiraine may well have been shown that killing Asmodean was the catalyst that would set one of the other 2 futures in motion. After all, she was shown as unlikely things as her bedding Rand.

 

That leaves her the option of doing nothing until a later point in time.

 

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic, although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic' date=' although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J[/quote']

 

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

[old hob]

just to add my 2 cents, i think slayer was the killer.

I have come to this conclusion since i belive only lanfear and moiraine seemed to have a motive to kill asmo and they are both stuck in the tower of genji and since slayer is linked to the finns (TSR), i think the finns used him to grant either moiraine or lanfear's wish in killing asmo. Asmo's reaction to the killer i find also would fit if the killer was slayer since asmo would know what slayer was there to do to him and hence the "you..no". Also if you remember before asmo enters the door to the wine celler he see's the opening of a gateway and thinks it is from the previous days fighting but i think it was one side of an open gateway that led to tar where slayer was waiting.

Asmo also shivers when he looks at the edge of the gateway and im thinking this was caused from his passage through the gateway into tar (though i dont know if passing through a gateway into tar causes a shiver so correct me if im wrong).

 

I'm a new poster so maybe slayer was already ruled out by other circumstances ?

[rd2000]

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic' date=' although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J[/quote']

 

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

 

Very nice counter theory and explanation. I must counter that your explanation hinges on the fact that she had a vision that included Asmodean on the docks and she deduced him as being necessary to be there or her 1/3 chance would be shattered. I must therefore point out that your 1/3 chance is moot because Asmodean would have been there in all three of her visions, so she would deduce his presence was not necessary for her 1 chance to work. The only way I can follow your logic is if Asmo was not present in her two visions of failure and present only in her vision of success.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic' date=' although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J[/quote']

 

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

 

Very nice counter theory and explanation. I must counter that your explanation hinges on the fact that she had a vision that included Asmodean on the docks and she deduced him as being necessary to be there or her 1/3 chance would be shattered. I must therefore point out that your 1/3 chance is moot because Asmodean would have been there in all three of her visions, so she would deduce his presence was not necessary for her 1 chance to work. The only way I can follow your logic is if Asmo was not present in her two visions of failure and present only in her vision of success.

 

Yes, that she saw Asmodean in her vision of the docks is an assumption and I never said it wasn't. I can't prove that she saw Asmodean in her vision, but it is illogical to think that she didn't. If Moiraine was shown a true vision of her future, people that are present for an event needed to be included. If they are not, the vision is incomplete. Since Asmodean was with Moiraine and Rand on the docks when the events occurred, it is likely that he was in the vision that she had of the future that occurred. The books even imply that she did see him. When Moiraine tells Rand they need to go to the docks, she says, "I have had horses readied. Even for you, Mat, just in case." She knew in advance what horses to have readied, so she knew who was going to the docks that morning. When I said that Asmodean was important, it was because he was a detail that she was shown in her vision. There were 3 possible futures, 2 bad, and the any alteration could send them down one of them. Asmodean's attendence at the docks isn't moot at all.

 

I didn't say Asmodean's presense was the catalyst that changed the futures, just that it could have been. We saw the future that occurred and we only have specific details about that one. All we know about other 2 is that Rand died in one and went with Lanfear in the other. We don't know any other details so we can't say that Asmodean would have been present for them. The presense of Asmodean may have been a difference that Moiraine noted and it may not have. If he was present fine in those fine, if he wasn't that is fine too as it would have no bearing on the future that did occur.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Asmodean's absence would prevent the future that did happen from occurring. He played a role, albeit minor, in the docks scene. He had to be present for that to occur. If he was killed before that, he could not participate and events could not play out exactly as they did. If Moiraine's vision was as accurate as we are led to believe, then she saw events exactly as they eventually played out. She would not remove Asmodean from the scene and invalidate the only vision of the future in which she saw any hope.