one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[havoc110]

Funny, I had no real gut reaction at the time, apart from the fact that it could NOT have been Moiraine or Lanfear.

 

As I expected it to resolve in book 6, I didn't pay it much mind. It was not until post-PoD that I started to look at the mystery a little more closely. I mean, how were we to know that we'd still be dealing with this 13 years later? My preference as Graendal as a subject is still wholly based on the fact that I can build better cases against all the other suspects.

 

CW, as for Graendal herself, I think it is you who are in for a surprise. Look to Ituralde and his 300,000 men. (Also the possibility that BOTH armies currently in Arad Doman are controlled by the Dark.)

 

GF, any comments on that?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I agree with you so far as saying that I will be very surprise if Graendal turns out to be anything other than a joke. You would need to re-write the definitions of being "in character" and "out of character" to allow it to happen though.

 

I haven't forgotten Ituralde at all. He's actually the evidence that Graendal screwed up again. For the last few books he has been acting on his own plan and innitiative. He is now avoiding messengers from the "king" (in other words Graendal) because the orders were too contradictory. Graendal was attempting to to keep him from taking any effective action but she once again overplayed her hand and over-estimated her ability to manipulate people.

[Llewin]

I'm curious if everyone thinks the possibility that either Moiraine or Lanfear used access to the 'finn to get asmodean knocked off or to kill him themselves...is even worth considering?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm curious if everyone thinks the possibility that either Moiraine or Lanfear used access to the 'finn to get asmodean knocked off or to kill him themselves...is even worth considering?

 

Considering that the only viable candidate for the murderer is Moiraine and where she has been ever since taking him out, it necessitates some 'Finn involvement in arranging matters.

[Llewin]

I'm curious if everyone thinks the possibility that either Moiraine or Lanfear used access to the 'finn to get asmodean knocked off or to kill him themselves...is even worth considering?

 

Considering that the only viable candidate for the murderer is Moiraine and where she has been ever since taking him out' date=' it necessitates some 'Finn involvement in arranging matters.[/quote']

 

cwest... Obviously Moiraine is your pick, but I'm curious, especially at such an early point in the game after she and lanfear when through the portal, why isnt Lanfear also a possibility with Finn assistance? Could be thats what got her killed, wishing for the chance to kill Asmo?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Llewin: I can answer your question with one word: "Preparation". That Lanfear survived was never a consideration for me for the simple reason that Moiraine knew they were going through the Doorway before it happened and Lanfear didn't. So far, as it turned out, I was right. Lanfear didn't survive the experience because at some point before we see her again she died and was resurrected in a new body. Knife of Dreams finally confirmed that Moiraine did survive going through the Doorway and is still alive.

 

I've said it elsewhere in this 80 odd pages but to save needing to read it all over again, I will restate it. By the time I finished reading The Fires of Heaven for the first time, immediately upon reading Asmodean's murder in fact, I knew that Moiraine was alive. I didn't just think that she was alive, I knew beyond any possible doubt that she was alive. I started every book since then wondering if that was the one in which RJ was going to reveal to the characters that Moiraine was alive. Needless to say, it's been rather irritating that it's taken so long. I have thouroughly enjoyed the books, but I wanted her back already.

 

And yes, Moiraine is my pick for the murderer. I'm proud to be one of the 17 people that see it like it is.

[Llewin]

cwest. I'm not denying Moiraine at all :)

 

When I first read the Asmodean bit I immediately thought Lanfear but Moiraine was my second thought :) I'm on the fence but it has to be one or the other, no one else in the whole series made sense 'intuitively' by the end of FOH...

[Jonn]

I agree with you so far as saying that I will be very surprise if Graendal turns out to be anything other than a joke. You would need to re-write the definitions of being "in character" and "out of character" to allow it to happen though.

 

I haven't forgotten Ituralde at all. He's actually the evidence that Graendal screwed up again. For the last few books he has been acting on his own plan and innitiative. He is now avoiding messengers from the "king" (in other words Graendal) because the orders were too contradictory. Graendal was attempting to to keep him from taking any effective action but she once again overplayed her hand and over-estimated her ability to manipulate people.

 

That's a good point.

 

The little we know of Graendal's history shows that even though she is quite formidable, she has a tendency to get outplayed at her own game.

 

She purportedly brought Sammael into the fold of the Chosen and he so quickly outshone her in accomplisments, that most forgot that she was even involved with Sammael in the beginning.

 

Her attempts to cause chaos in the West through Arad Domon were outshone by the invasion of the Seanchan. A lot of it had to do with her reliance on Compulsion of the nobles. She failed to consider that there were some who were smart enough to see through the illogical orders from on high, that someone like Ituralde (who everyone should know about in Arad Domon) would begin to act independently. Ostensibly she has actually helped to solidify a movement to unite the forces of the west against the Seanchan, by putting the power into the hands of a capable leader instead of the Kings. Again, good point Cwest.

 

Even before that she again got outplayed by Sammael in her attempt to bluff him. She was in the back seat of the whole Sammael bait plot.

 

I don't see how lucking into a shot at the traitor Asmodean, translates into the spot she has landed in. Even she shouldn't be able to squander the benefits granted because of the elimination of a turncoat as prominent as Asmodean.

 

Not a whiff on her part that she would cash in. Why? Somehow I don't see Graendal as someone who would hesitate to mention what's her due. If she, after three thousand years still felt stung that Sammael supplanted her position in the hierarchy of the Chosen, I would think that her dispatching a number 1 traitor would have been mentioned. This would have been either in her POV or in actual dialogue by now if she were truly guilty.

 

To me, to not mention it after all of this time... that is far more improbable, inexplicable than Moiraine using a wish granted by creatures that...oh, I don't know, GRANT WISHES.

[Alviarin]

ok here it is, Rj said that it should be obvious, but it isn't. he also said that another person died the same way, this theory is probably wrong, but it dose make sense-kindof.

we know that in the 3rd book moiraine killed be'lal with bale fire, I think he is the person that Rj is talking about when he says that another person was killed the exact same way. When moiraine killed him, his cry was all that was left, just like Asmodean. this theory would also make a lot more sense, if my theory on Moiraine is right, I beleive that she is a freind of the dark.

she will kill the world!

[Prempt]

Since Moiraine knew she was going to fight Lanfear and fall into a Ter'angreal and become property of the Finns, why would she wait until after that happened to come back and kill Asmodean? Why not kill him before disappearing and taking a chance that she might not be able to come back out and do it.

[Guest Egwene]

She was shown many different possible paths with different possible outcomes... it is quite likely that one of them showed her that if she killed Asmo earlier it would have bad consequences.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I have explained why she could not kill him prior to that before now, but here goes again...

 

While in Rhuidean, Moiraine had a vission that showed her the docks scene and 3 possible outcomes. There was only one option that was acceptable. By necessity, that vision had to show her the people who were present at the docks. We know this to be a necessity for 2 reasons. The first is that it would not be a true possible future without showing participants, and the second is that she knew which horses to request saddled before she went to talk with Rand. That meens, however minor his role at the docks was, Asmodean's presence was mandatory. If he wasn't there, her vision of the one acceptable outcome would not be possible. She needed to make sure thinks occurred exactly as she saw in the Rhuidean vision.

[MsDanya]

but who else then Graendal!? it isnt obvious to the casual reader that Moiraine or Lanfear did it! sure, perhaps you thought it "oh he got killed, perhaps it was Lanfear or Moiraine, no wait they are dead!!!" why/how would ot bve obvious that a person believed dead by all at the time,would kill Asmo? even the readers believed they were deat at the time!! and the more this is discussed, the more we miss the point that this isnt supposed to be discussed or turned and twisted to find the answer! its supposed to be obvious for crying out loud!

[Jonn]

Since Moiraine knew she was going to fight Lanfear and fall into a Ter'angreal and become property of the Finns' date=' why would she wait until after that happened to come back and kill Asmodean? Why not kill him before disappearing and taking a chance that she might not be able to come back out and do it.[/quote']

 

This was back about 10 pages ago. I think Cwest did the best job of explaining a major part of the theory. I was trying to go on the point that acting rashly would have alerted Lanfear to danger, but cwest went a step further and tied in the Rhuidean mechanism. Here's the condensed argument:

 

Kadere wrote:

 

I agree. If she didn't except him, and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.

 

Jonn wrote:

 

Everything she does or does not do is predicated by the Lanfear encounter. That MUST happen. To kill Asmodean would tip Lanfear off and Asmodean stayed close to Rand the whole time. So if either of those two were tipped off to Moiraine killing Asmodean, things would go wrong.

 

The letter simply says that she knew or suspected of Rand's dealings with the the Forsaken, but she could forgive him that, because she intends to kill them anyway.

 

If you read between the lines of the letter (as you must because she is Aes Sedai) nothing in it says she was complicit to let Rand have a pet Forsaken.

 

The resignation that some of you are reading, is there. It is there though for the fact that she is resigned towards Rand making the decision of accepting Lanfear's offer. It MAY have been the only way, as she put it. She also said she cannot approve. She's still under the Three Oaths, so that is the truth. She cannot approve, but she understands. that is not even close to agreement that it should stay that way. She even warns Rand against him. the reason she didn't outright tell Rand to get rid of him is because she knew Rand would not and really it's a sour thing to add a command or plea in a letter that's supposed to arrive after your death. That's about as annoyingly passive-agressive as you can get.

 

"You will do well." YOU will do well. Subtle message that he should rely on himself.

 

It's all ther ein the letter. You're free to interpret it another way. i just can't see how you can conclude that the letter means she wouldn't kill Asmodean. Not as a surety.

 

Jedimuppet wrote:

You're as bad as Thom looking daes'daemar (or whatever the game is called) in the letter. She's speaking plainly to the country kid she brough out of his home.

 

Why would killing Asmo tip Lanfear off? Why wouldn't she think it was another forsaken or an accident? He's weak, and in a dangerous situation. There's no reason to believe that Lanfear would jump to the conclusion that Moiraine figured everything out and killed him. Rand would probably be her first guess.

J

 

Jonn wrote:

You're contradicting yourself. Rand needs a teacher, so Lanfear would suspect Rand or killing Asmodean? In any case, Asmodean is a chip, a pawn, a hook in Rand that leads to Lanfear. If Lanfear looses that chip she is going to get suspicious. Her guard will be up and things could very well happen very differently than what occured down on the docks.

 

Besides, Asmodean is always near Rand at that point or he is always in plain sight. What opportunity is there to kill Asmodean before?

 

Asmodean got careless. That lead to his death as much as anything. He figured Lanfear was dead. he figured no Forsaken would come near Caemlyn after what had happened there not a few hours before. Rahvin gunned down in his own stronghold? Asmodean figured he was safe, why else would he wander off alone so stupidly? He's stupid now? Guard down when threats are diminished.

 

Asmodean dead and now all the Forsaken wary of one another. How would that be different if Moiraine had done it before CAemlyn? Lanfear would react, and that could not happen.

 

 

 

 

Jedimuppet wrote:

 

quote]

 

I have a feeling she understands how easy it is for Rand to snap. I think she would suspect he just lost it when Asmo got cheeky or something, not that he calculated his death.

J

 

Jonn wrote:

 

That's a moot point as it never happened anyway.

 

Still, we're not talking about Rand killing Asmodea. We're talking about Moiraine. How would she get an opportunity to kil Asmodean when Asmodean was basically hanging onto Rand like a lifeline? Otherwise Asmodean was careful to be in plain sight of others, or in a secure podition. His guard was up as well. Let's take that into account.

 

Despite Asmodean's fears at the time, his guard was down after the Caemlyn battle. He figured all of the close threats to him were eliminated or would be scared off by what had just happened.

He's a survivalist if anything, with no great talents other than his ability to do just that. This is a guy who by all accounts should have been dead three thousand years ago. How does he manage that if he isn't a keen reader of danger?

 

This was no ordinary hit is what I'm saying. It would be spoken about at length, if it was common knowledge that one of the Chosen did it. That card is one that must be played, but as it hasn't been, I can only conclude that none of the Forsaken pulled the trigger.

 

Jedimuppet wrote:

 

It's not moot; it's central to your rationale of why Moiraine would not have killed Asmo when she had the chance. You claim it would alert Lanfear, and I'm offering a counter to that. You can't stick to your points like that, and then when I offer a legitimate counterpoint, call it moot.

 

As far as it being common knowledge if a forsaken had done it, I think that's silly. They never talk or cooperate. I think we learned that at the end of WH.

 

J

 

Jonn wrote:

Did I not just give you a counter-argument? If she suspected that Rand killed Asmodean, she would ask questions. Eventually she would catch on that Rand didn't kill Asmodean and she would have to be suspicious of the people in Rand's camp or of an outside source of interference in her schemes. Either way she would be suspicious and on guard, if not directly eyeing Moiraine herself.

 

It's moot because what you were suggesting is arguable, but ultimately besides the point.

 

So there you are.

_________________

 

 

rd2000 wrote:

Then why not bump him off right before, or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.

 

Jonn wrote:

I really don't know what you're getting at. If you cannot accept the theory, then don't. You're talking about boxers and drawing all kinds of lines away from the point.

 

If you had a fleeting glimpse of the future and you were not sure what path will lead you where...what are tyhe decisions you have to make? Hard ones. Decisions which you cannot be sure you will live to see the result. You must focus on the larger tasks first. Why risk your entire plan on the secondary targets, when you know you MUST be successful in hitting your primary task?

 

Hypothetically, if Moiraine had to choose between the two Forsaken, and have surety of killing just the one...who would you focus on? I would think it would be Lanfear as she is by far the most dangerous.

 

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. Anyhow, The big picture is protecting Rand and eliminating the agents of the Shadow. It requires some guile to manipulate events, you don't just go in guns blazing unless you have the clear advantage. Moiraine is much to subtle to do something as foolish as telegraph her intentions for anyone to outright read. Killing Asmodean out in the open before taking care of Lanfear...Sorry, I have to be blunt, but that's a boneheaded approach to the task.

 

Just letting you all know. I'm out for about three weeks with limited access. Keep up the discussion. It's been fun.

 

 

cwestervelt wrote:

I really wasn't planning on posting on this thread any longer, but with the only other voice for Moiraine gone, and, to my mind, the question of why she wouldn't kill Asmodean before the docks not having been answered adequately, I felt compelled.

 

The simplest, and most obvious answer comes down to the probability of success at the docks. There were 3 possible outcomes.

 

1) Rand dies

2) Rand goes with Lanfear and becomes utterly devoted to her

3) Moiraine and Lanfear go through the door

 

Moiraine had, at best, a 1 in 3 chance of success. Based on her letter to Rand, she was concerned that the slightest difference from her vision would meen disaster. She took time to prepare the scene precisely, uncovering the Door after all that time, placing the Angreal just right so that Lanfear couldn't miss it. Moiraine was willing to give her enemy the meens of added strength to make sure things conformed to the path Moiraine chose. Nothing in that is speculation, it is all supported from the book.

 

Now I will speculate a bit. If Moiraine was shown the level of detail she appears to have, besides the presence of inanimate objects, she likely saw details concerning the participants. At the point where Kadere's wagon exploded, Rand is saying something to Asmodean. Asmodean was with Moiraine and Rand when they went to the docks. Concerning the other details, Moiraine was shown, she likely saw Asmodean in that vision. I think that is enough speculation at this point.

 

Moiraine had her vision of the docks before Asmodean came on stage. Assuming that the above speculation is accurate, Moiraine would have recognized he was significant the minute that they met up with Kadere. She may not have known exactly who he was, but she would know he was important. We do know that at some point, she learns that Jasin Natael is in fact the Foresaken Asmodean.

 

What are her options upon learing Natael's true identity:

 

1) Confront Rand

2) Asassination attempt on Natael

3) Nothing

 

She may have had more, but those are the major ones.

 

Confronting Rand is out. She is trying to get him to trust her, and trying to make him get rid of his only possible teacher isn't going to help her case.

 

Asassination attempt on Natael is out. This depends on the assumption that Moiraine did indeed see the participants of the events leading up to the docks as part of her vission. She would have seen herself in close proximaty to Asmodean immediately before Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon to pieces. With that knowledge, she cannot kill Asmodean in advance. If she does, she alters the only future that had a desirable outcome. In fact, by killing Asmodean in advance, the desired future that she was shown in the vision could not occur as Asmodean wouldn't have been present. That would either trigger a random 4th future, or forced them onto one of the other 2 paths. Moiraine may well have been shown that killing Asmodean was the catalyst that would set one of the other 2 futures in motion. After all, she was shown as unlikely things as her bedding Rand.

 

That leaves her the option of doing nothing until a later point in time.

 

 

jedimuppet wrote:

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic, although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J

 

rd2000 wrote:

Then why not bump him off right before, or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.

 

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

 

 

Very nice counter theory and explanation. I must counter that your explanation hinges on the fact that she had a vision that included Asmodean on the docks and she deduced him as being necessary to be there or her 1/3 chance would be shattered. I must therefore point out that your 1/3 chance is moot because Asmodean would have been there in all three of her visions, so she would deduce his presence was not necessary for her 1 chance to work. The only way I can follow your logic is if Asmo was not present in her two visions of failure and present only in her vision of success.

 

cwestervelt wrote:

Yes, that she saw Asmodean in her vision of the docks is an assumption and I never said it wasn't. I can't prove that she saw Asmodean in her vision, but it is illogical to think that she didn't. If Moiraine was shown a true vision of her future, people that are present for an event needed to be included. If they are not, the vision is incomplete. Since Asmodean was with Moiraine and Rand on the docks when the events occurred, it is likely that he was in the vision that she had of the future that occurred. The books even imply that she did see him. When Moiraine tells Rand they need to go to the docks, she says, "I have had horses readied. Even for you, Mat, just in case." She knew in advance what horses to have readied, so she knew who was going to the docks that morning. When I said that Asmodean was important, it was because he was a detail that she was shown in her vision. There were 3 possible futures, 2 bad, and the any alteration could send them down one of them. Asmodean's attendence at the docks isn't moot at all.

 

I didn't say Asmodean's presense was the catalyst that changed the futures, just that it could have been. We saw the future that occurred and we only have specific details about that one. All we know about other 2 is that Rand died in one and went with Lanfear in the other. We don't know any other details so we can't say that Asmodean would have been present for them. The presense of Asmodean may have been a difference that Moiraine noted and it may not have. If he was present fine in those fine, if he wasn't that is fine too as it would have no bearing on the future that did occur.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Asmodean's absence would prevent the future that did happen from occurring. He played a role, albeit minor, in the docks scene. He had to be present for that to occur. If he was killed before that, he could not participate and events could not play out exactly as they did. If Moiraine's vision was as accurate as we are led to believe, then she saw events exactly as they eventually played out. She would not remove Asmodean from the scene and invalidate the only vision of the future in which she saw any hope.

 

I don't think I ever said that Moiraine knew Asmodean had to die and was planning out how to kill him. I usually take the stance that the opportunity presented itself and she took it.

 

Regardless of that, how was Moiraine going to make other arrangements? She needed to keep the people immediately around her unaware of what was about to happen so that they wouldn't interfere. Unless she wrote more letters than the two that we know about, she couldn't and didn't ask one of her companions to do it. Having another Aes Sedai do it was also out of the question. For 1, a lot of them still appeared to be in denial that the Foresaken were even loose, so she would first have to convince them that Jasin Natael was Asmodean. Then you have the fact that she was a fugitive of the Tower with no real information concerning who she could trust. She couldn't just go to an agent of the Tower and have them send a message. Any attempt to do so and that the message would likely end up in the Tower as there may not have been sufficient time for Siuan to have made contact with all of the agents and gotten the networks redirected. She knew that the Tower was split and that Elaida was in charge, so the usual communications channels wouldn't have been available to her. In the entire time that she was in the waste, she had no access to Ajah agents to handle messages. Even if she found a pigeon that could "home" to the Tower, no one had pigeons that could "home" back to her as she was moving around. A pigeon can only be used one way. To deliver its message, it flies home. Someone else needs to take it to the point where messages can be sent from as it won't fly back on its own.

 

Saying that she would have made other arrangements sounds good and logical, but you need to figure out the logistics of it before making it a possibility.

[MsDanya]

but thats not obvious to the casual reader!!!! GRR!!! :shock:

[Guest Egwene]

Normally, when someone dies that is stated as such. In Moiraine and Lanfear's case, they 'dissapeared'. Nowhere was there a positive statement that they had died. Even when Lan commented that the Bond was broken, I never once thought 'she is dead'. I just wondered what happened after they fell through and was certain I would find out a book or two later. It just would not have made sense to kill off not one but two characters that up to that point had been pretty central to the story. Especially considering that RJ actally devoted a prequel to one of them.

 

Let's face it... anytime someone just dissapears in a TV series you automatically assume that they probably will be resurected a few shows down the line. :P

[MsDanya]

sure! you e xpevt them to show up at some point in the later books, but to comeback that early and comitt a murder and then disapear again! no! i truly dont believe that! it is also the matter about how obvious it is!

[Jonn]

but thats not obvious to the casual reader!!!! GRR!!! :shock:

 

And Graendal is obvious? Hardly.

 

Emotionally, there is no obvious intended impact. Logically, it's cold and one has to make a series of logical lines to track the killing to her. These lines happen to be incomplete and as circumstantial as you can come up with in this situation.

 

Emotionally, Moiraine strikes a chord, even Lanfear (although logically weaker) strikes a chord. There's a sense of narrative poetry with these two, and it makes sense in a more visceral manner. The fact that Moiraine (still alive) is still such a mystery and the series' foremost mystery (Asmodean, still dead) is yet unsolved...it's easier and easier to casually see that Moiraine is involved in these matters.

 

Graendal on the other hand...it's hard to feel closer to an answer with her. Book after book, no real glimpses or turns of hand to get her closer to being named the killer. If it's left this way I can't see how she's any closer to the true identity than Moiraine is.

 

The bright side is, we'll eventually get some kind of clue once Moiraine is re-introduced. This will finally confirm or eliminate her from the running. I am certain. So, yet another thing to look forward to when the series comes to a close.

[Guest cwestervelt]

but who else then Graendal!? it isnt obvious to the casual reader that Moiraine or Lanfear did it! sure' date=' perhaps you thought it "oh he got killed, perhaps it was Lanfear or Moiraine, no wait they are dead!!!" why/how would ot bve obvious that a person believed dead by all at the time,would kill Asmo? even the readers believed they were deat at the time!! and the more this is discussed, the more we miss the point that this isnt supposed to be discussed or turned and twisted to find the answer! its supposed to be obvious for crying out loud![/quote']

 

You presume to much when you say that even the readers believed they were dead at the time. For some, like me, once the initial shock of the dock's scene wore off, there was a feeling that Moiraine dying at that point just didn't make sense. Then, when Asmodean was killed, there was an immediate feeling that suspicions of Moiraine's continued existance were accurate. Between the feeling that something was wrong about Moiraine "dying" at the docks, and the killing of Asmodean, you have your "intuitively obvious" solution.

 

I'm about as casual of a reader as you can get. Quite frankly, I'm amazed at how many crazy theories people come up with to explain why someone stuck his hand in his pocket, or walked down a corridor, or whatever. Only when you take an overly analytical approach to the books does the killing of Asmodean fail to be intuitively obvious.

 

I don't turn and twist to come up with an answer. That is the Graendal supporters who do that. I can't give a "logical explanation" of how Moiraine killed him. Who killed Asmodean is supposed to be intuitively obvious and to a small percentage of readers, it was intuitively obvious. Being "intuitively obvious" doesn't mandate a logical explanation. With the information we have, there isn't a way to draw a logical explanation of the killing.

[Prempt]

Sorry about asking a question that was already posted earlier. I haven't read hardly any of this massive thread. I guess what I don't get after reading what was posted since my previous post is that if it was Moiraine, then why come out of Finnland, kill Asmodean and go back? How exactly would that work? "Excuse me, Mr. Finn, do you mind if I go back out to Randland and kill someone, then I'll come right back." I just don't see how she would be able to just leave the Finns. Then again, we don't know too much about them.

[Jonn]

Well, that's it isn't it? You can't count out the Finns being involved because they are so mysterious.

 

Elaboration isn't really necessary at this point. If there's one thing we should take in when reading fantasy, it's that there are a lot of mysteries involved. There should be a prevailing sense of mystery to keep the reader wanting to know more, to be immersed in the world they are reading about.

 

It's called suspense.

 

Moiraine is so intriguing, and so are the Finns, and in the last book we'll get to see their mysteries play out. It's going to be intense.

 

Graendal...not very suspenseful. She's about as subtle as a hot blonde in a see-through dress.

 

If it turns out to be her it's like, "whoopty-doo! What the heck was the point in not saying so, oh I dunno, 10 years ago?"

 

You can't say it didn't need elaborating because RJ said that people were asking him ever since it was first published. He had to have seen that people were expecting an answer. He's not a stupid man. Why omit such a detail on a whim, unless there was more to it?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well' date=' that's it isn't it? You can't count out the Finns being involved because they are so mysterious.

 

Elaboration isn't really necessary at this point. If there's one thing we should take in when reading fantasy, it's that there are a lot of mysteries involved. There should be a prevailing sense of mystery to keep the reader wanting to know more, to be immersed in the world they are reading about.

 

It's called suspense.

 

Moiraine is so intriguing, and so are the Finns, and in the last book we'll get to see their mysteries play out. It's going to be intense.

 

Graendal...not very suspenseful. She's about as subtle as a hot blonde in a see-through dress.

 

If it turns out to be her it's like, "whoopty-doo! What the heck was the point in not saying so, oh I dunno, 10 years ago?"

 

You can't say it didn't need elaborating because RJ said that people were asking him ever since it was first published. He had to have seen that people were expecting an answer. He's not a stupid man. Why omit such a detail on a whim, unless there was more to it?[/quote']

 

A hot blond in a see-through dress? That sums her up quite nicely. I don't know why so many people think there is anything more to her. An author can't spend so many books establishing a character and then have them do something entirely different at the end. People can talk about plot twists all they want, but you can only go so far with them. I've heard many people complain about books because they could see the plot twist coming a mile a way. If they see them too early, the author may not have been subtle enough, but the fact is, all plot twists must be anticipatable. There needs to be something that an astute reader would pick up on. There isn't any cohesion to the story otherwise.

 

Suspence, like any other litterary device only works if there is a reason to use it. Asmodean's death was covered in a couple short paragraphs but it was in no way a minor event. It was deliberately written in such a way that it would stand out to the reader. That in itself should be enough to rule out any of the Foresaken because Asmodean expected to be killed by one of them. With that type of established expectation, there wouldn't be any reason to refrain from telling the reader who the murderer was, unless the murder was not one of the Foresaken.

[havoc110]

Here go the Moiraine apologists again...

 

Intriguing, you say? I hate to rain on your parade, jonn and cw, but Moiraine, great character, yes; intriguing, not really.

 

Her whole story is there before us in the text, she is not so different from Gandalf or Obi-Wan.

 

But I think the problem has been RJ's depiction of the Chosen. Why would you need to seal a hot blonde in a see through dress into the Bore? Point well taken.

 

You have seen 11 books of the Chosen being depicted as whiny punks who roll over when confronted by the Light.

 

I am reasonably sure that the remaining Chosen, especially those who survive from the original 13, have very serious operations going. If not, myself and a whole pile of readers will be severely disappointed.

 

They took the Chosen seriously when the sealed them up in the Bore, but nothing to date makes you take them seriously, because they are continually routed by a shepherd and his rogue Aes Sedai advisor.

 

There has been a need for something like "The Empire Strikes Back", where it looks like balance is swinging towards the dark. Since we have not really had that through the penultimate book, I guess it is too late.

 

I hope RJ doesn't hold to present form and have Demandred and Mesaana just show up and then get toasted. That is more argument for there being more than one book, but I suppose RJ could pull another "Aram".

[Jonn]

Okay, here's a thought.

 

What gives everyone this idea that the Shadow hasn't been winning all along?

 

What would give you the idea that the Shadow really lost the War of Power? Can you call the Breaking of the World a victory for the Light? Let me tell you, if that's victory, I'd hate to see defeat.

 

Ishamael was free all along messing things up for the World for 3000 years. The trolloc Wars the Hundred Years, the Breaking...periods of utter darkness only contrasted by mildly less troubling times.

 

Sure, the Forsaken have been a little disapointing at times, but this is supposed to be the turnig point for the Light isn't it? Things have to start going right for them.

 

Read New Spring and tell me the Light was winning up until Moiraine Damodred appeared on the scene.

 

She is a great character and very intriguing. One has to ask themself, if she's not the biggest hero in the tale...The catalyst for the Light's vistory...

[Guest cwestervelt]

RJ's depiction of the Chosen isn't really a problem. The problem lies in what the reader chooses to make of that depiction. Some people take the opinion that because they were sealed away they must have been real bad and powerful so there must be something big coming from them. That line of reasoning fits with the average Wheel of Time Third Ager's beliefs, but it isn't correct.

 

The Forsaken weren't sealed away in the bore because they were so powerful, or because they were so much more vile than any of the other followers of the Dark One during the War of Power. The weren't even the only Forsaken. (Tor Question for Week 12 http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152) The Forsaken were sealed away by pure happenstance. They were simply in the right place at the right time (or wrong place at the wrong time if you prefer). They were sealed away because they were present at Shayol Ghul when LTT attacked and sealed the Bore. (The Strike at Shayol Ghul http://www.tor.com/shayol.html)

 

Strength in the One Power isn't even what made their names so feared. Other than Ishamael and Lanfear, they weren't even exceptionally strong for the Age of Legends. The later books have revealed that they aren't even exceptionally strong compared to Third Age channellers. The strength difference was a perception that was brought on by time and the White Tower's recruitment policy. What made the Forsaken so feared were the attrocities they committed and are still capable of committing. What you see happenning in the books is a result of how time distorts memory and peoples perceptions evolve to the point where they expect more from someone than they truly are capable of. The Third Ager's have very little true knowledge of the Forsaken and the War of Power. What they have are "Legends", and inherent in a legend is an exageration of the truth.

 

Three thousand years gives a truly distorted picture of history. Birgitte even mentions how the tales about her are so far from the truth she can barely recognize them. Some of those date back to as recent as the Trolloc War's. Imagine what another 2 or 3 thousand years will do to them. It is up to us as readers to decide if we want to look at the Forsaken through the eyes of people that only know the legends, or if we want to look beyond that to what we truly see them doing.