one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

Graendals favourite · July 3, 2006

Addition:
When we are shown the contents of Moiraine's letter to Thom in Knife of Dreams we are provided additional information concerning why Moiraine would kill Asmodean if she saw him at that point.

She knew certain things had to happen in order for her to be rescued safely from the Finn's. Allowing Asmodean to tell others that he had just seen Moiraine would have had potentially serious consequences. Asmodean being Forsaken + Asmodean knowing Moiraine is alive + Moiraine knowing she has a chance at being rescued, but only if things happen just right = Moiraine wouldn't think twice about killing Asmodean.

I just reread the letter, and I must say it must be a confirmation she didn't do it: Had she been put into the palace, someone might have seen her. Mat could have seen her, it could have been Mat coming (She would not have been able to kill Asmo, too, not like that anyway). She wrote everyone will believe she's dead when Thom receives the letter. There is a contradiction, it cannot be she could have visited Caemlyn.

July 3, 2006

Further more, the possibility of her being popped in and out seems impossible, the latter particularly. It is known the Finns cannot affect anything outside their realm.

I know it is hopeless as I have argued this point before, but I will try do do so again. First off, we know for a fact that the Finn's can place people where and how they choose. We have evidence of this from 2 sources. The first is from Mat's dealings with them. Argue all you want but his positioning on return from Finnland was not simple hapenstance. The second comes directly from RJ's own comments which, unfortunately, people read much more into than are actually there. Much like when people thought he had confirmed that Graendal was the killer.

From the Question of the Week http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

Look carefully at what he says. Especially the part that I have bolded. He is saying that the Finn's can choose the location where they place you. They are not limited to returning you through your original entry point and they are not restricted to returning you to where you came from. If placing a person in an world otherwise devoid of sentient life doesn't count as directly affecting that world, then placing a person in an empty (otherwise devoid of sentient life) room or hallway can't be considered as affecting that room or hallway. In both cases, their is the same net effect as a result of the Eelfin's actions. The world and room/hallway are no loger empty. Logically, since they can place you where they choose, it stands to reason that they can retrieve you from that location or provide some other return method if you haven't completed your deal with them. Furthermore, RJ's comments indicate that the Eelfin have the ability to indirectly affect the events of the world outside. If not, they wouldn't be able to provide the wisher with the means to change his personal status by make himself king.

All RJ's statement really say is that the Eelfin cannot take direct and decisive action on your behalf. To put it simply, if all that is required to make you king is the death of the current one they cannot kill the king for you. What they can do is provide an otherwise impossible situation that allows you to kill the king yourself. It is indirect, but they are still affecting the outside world.

July 3, 2006

Addition:
When we are shown the contents of Moiraine's letter to Thom in Knife of Dreams we are provided additional information concerning why Moiraine would kill Asmodean if she saw him at that point.

She knew certain things had to happen in order for her to be rescued safely from the Finn's. Allowing Asmodean to tell others that he had just seen Moiraine would have had potentially serious consequences. Asmodean being Forsaken + Asmodean knowing Moiraine is alive + Moiraine knowing she has a chance at being rescued' date=' but only if things happen just right = Moiraine wouldn't think twice about killing Asmodean.[/quote']

I just reread the letter, and I must say it must be a confirmation she didn't do it: Had she been put into the palace, someone might have seen her. Mat could have seen her, it could have been Mat coming (She would not have been able to kill Asmo, too, not like that anyway). She wrote everyone will believe she's dead when Thom receives the letter. There is a contradiction, it cannot be she could have visited Caemlyn.

If she is careful framing her wish, and Moiraine has had a lot of practice at that, there wouldn't be any real danger of it being Mat coming through the door. Beyond that, the randomness of who she gets to kill fits perfectly with the concept of how the Eelfin's wish granting is skewed.

Jonn · July 3, 2006

Jonn, you still don't know what I'm talking about, do you? The murder was quick, two second maximum, from the opening of the door. From nothing does it come that Moiraine could be able to or would try to kill Asmodean, who suddenly surprised her in the room she'd been put into. The murderer had to know he was coming and have her weaves ready.

Yes, reaction is key. If Asmo had not been shocked, the blood drawing from his face, he could have tried to defend himself, or escape back to the hallway where he came from. The same surprise would have taken time for also Moiraine, had Asmo stumbled upon him. She would not even have known he was alone.

Coming back to the Light means he no longer serves the DO. Have you read Glowing Embers? You seem to disregard it in your analysis. He must try to cling to Rand and against hope try to help him beat the DO. Because he'd sooner or later be hunted down.

Not so, there is some limit to what the request can be. It cannot be, the wish that automatically makes her the murderer and the queen of all as a bonus. Either she was asking to kill Asmo or not. In neither case would she have known Asmo was going to come through the door. She would be given the capability of doing the deed, "Done" and it would be up to her to interpret what that is and do it. So she is given a ride to the Palace? She knows she can remove a threat? No way will she kill Asmo like that.

A much better way of removing a threat would have been to get herself out of that place permanently. You know she has to be at TG. It is far from certain she will get out alive, even if the Thom, Mat and the other come alone to rescue her. She could have just killed of Mat and herself, pretty much dooming the world. And she knew she was risking Mat, going into that place in the first place.

It is hard for you to speak of the points if you obviously don't realise what they are. The Four Points Solution:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

Addding, when someone questions the points, I explain what is meant by them, if there is misunderstanding. Most Asmo theories have concentrated everywhere but the murder scene, so not everyone is focused on what precisely happened. As to points that favour Graendal, none are needed additionally, I will be interested if someone claims there is a flaw in those four points, not in whether Graendal took a bath that morning.

Let's start with your "Four points".

1. There is nothing in the text NOTHING that says what the murderer was thinking or for that matter knew. So to term the situation in a way that someone HAD to know anything about the ground is ludicrous.

That doesn't fit the scenario we are given. We only know what Asmodean was thinking and certain details about the physical scene. Speculation about what the murderer knew is just that SPECULATION.

It hardly makes it a standing point unless you can array your reasoning in a logical fashion, which you have not.

2. Again, the assumption of what the murderer knew. Let me simplify it all for you. The killer had to have the ability and the opportunity to kill, and a reason(motive). You're assuming that a surprised or disoriented person cannot kill. Again we do not know anything about the killer's mental state or disposition, but we cannot rule out people who would want to kill him on an assumption that they were disoriented. We don't know that, so we cannot stipulate that as a factor.

3. OK, this is what gets me. We have no confirmation that anyone did any Traveling to get to that other side of the door. None. Your entire scenario depends on this detail. You're assuming we buy that someone could so expertly stalk a very cautious man sneak up on him so that he doesn't detaect them, and they eventually observe him heading towards a door. .....

WHY TAKE THE TIME TO MAKE A GATEWAY? JUST BALEFIRE HIM IN THE BACK WHILE HE'S ALONE IN THE HALLWAY, AND THEN GATEWAY OUT OF THERE.

Simple. He's alone, you've stalked him, so kill him and leave. Why make the big scene and risk detection, by Travelling into a room that could be full of wine bottles, when you could just dispatch your prey without them even seeing you? Travelling is detectable by not only the weave (inverted or not) but the bluish light that snaps when it opens. Asmodean would have noticed that.

That extra step of the killer Travelling behind the door...it's too much to assume with no precedent set of that kind of behavior or tactic displayed by anyone. We don't see any sign of someone doing such a thing later either. Since there is no mention of it we cannot make the assumption that the murder was executed thusly.

4. Again you've limited arbitrarily the suspects to just female Forsaken. This is a clear logical fallacy. It's not outlandish in itself to include the Female forsaken, but you can also include male Forsaken for that matter...

Graendal knew the strike was at Caemlyn? We've been through this so many times, but I'll go there again since we have selective memory on this thread.

People think that Graendal knows the strike is at Caemlyn, even though Sammael doesnt...That's incredible. How would she come to this conclusion? Moghedien? No way. The only reason Moghedien knows is because she sits back and watches everything through Tel Aran Rhiod. The only reason she shares her knowledge with Nynaeve is because Nynaeve is holding her with a a'dam. I doubt Graendal could pry this information out of Moghedien without such an advantage, and that is not seen in any chapter of the novels so we cannot assume that that happened. So, Graendal's supposed knowledge trumps both Sammael's and Rahvin's, two of the most diabolical men ever to live. Yet she supposedly only acts on this knowledge after the event goes down. This is too much to assume from basically nothing given at the time of the murder.

Your points don't have flaws? Hardly. I could go on and on with the holes in your points.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

Jonn, if you're not arguing for the sake of arguing, here is an equivalent set of points:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. No one could have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. With very little warning, only a female channeller who could Travel could translocate himself from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds, without a male forsaken approaching that same door noticing.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead. Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage were free. Of those, Graendal had been part of scheme(s) between the Forsaken, to which Rand was central.

You notice, your criticism is only about point 1. I thought it was clear in the earlier presentation(Edit, no disrespect there, I realise presentation is a skill of its own, and I'm used to turning things around in my head before putting them on paper), but this is an equivalent presentation, both hold exactly the same information content as far as the murder goes. 2 and 3 are just bland statements, but they are clearly true.

You claim 1 is wrong, but you ignore what is written in the paragraph. The murderers knowledge is not speculation, when it is the divider whether the murderer could act the way he did in that paragraph. It is clear cut, if we rule out the possibility of the killer knowing Asmo was coming before, then no one could have done it, and Asmo suffered a heart attack. It is the only explanation then. Jonn, you claim your approach is the only one allowed and right, but you are wrong.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

CW, yea arguing about what the Finns can do is hopeless, we just don't know enough. They must have clear restrictions, but what they are..? At least, they could have yanked Mat back, if they could have. That they didn't suggest otherwise.

But she had to cover all possibilities. In all cases when Thom received the letter, everyone believed her dead. This was something she knew. In some branches of possibilities, Mat could have accompanied Asmo to try to locate the wine cellar.

Cybertrolloc · July 4, 2006

Jonn, didn't see any wine bottles in my book ;) We know nothing outside of passage with balefired walls to small door.

cwestervelt, what if the Tower of Ghenjei exists in all worlds, or many others (which is a door to their realm)? It seems a bad idea to give the Finns too much power since they loathe the shadow and don't think much of humans. Plus affecting the world near their portal is a far step from being able to do anything, anywhere in the world considering we don't know that they just can't walk out their door for a minute.

Graendal's favourite:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

Not necessarily. Since the Shadow makes intentional hits at the end of LoC, it's a possibility. How does this preclude Asmo opening door, there's something scary nearby going about it's business that then snuffs him?

2. No one could have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

This is still neutral to naming a killer, and not necessary. Possible, yes.

3. With very little warning, only a female channeller who could Travel could translocate himself from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds, without a male forsaken approaching that same door noticing.

Without later knowledge of reversing weaves, this is not possible for male or female, but is possible for either with reversing. Making a gateway large enough to step through takes a good bit of the power. Rahvin not noticing Lanfear's gateway in the prologue isn't the same as traveling from right behind him.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead. Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage were free. Of those, Graendal had been part of scheme(s) between the Forsaken, to which Rand was central.

All the Forsaken were/are involved in schemes concerning Rand, Graendal and Sammael were specifically involved with one with Rahvin. That's why I tend toward one or both of them as the killer with Sammael proven innocent by wondering where Asmo has gone in the next book or two.

We know nothing about what the murderer knows until you start considering a suspect then it's still likely (reasonably at least) debateable.

There is nothing that makes Moiraine incapable of killing Asmo, outside of being in an unknown state in FinnLand, and maybe not being too disposed to off Asmo since he would be useful to Rand still. Having Asmo close isn't without its dangers.

Lanfear has the far and away best motive in my mind (i.e. something above the reasons any Forsaken has to take out Asmo), yet she's loony when we last saw her in Carhein, and still obsessed as Cyndane when we see her thoughts. Also stuck in Finns to my mind, since we see nothing of her until Cyndane appears in PoD.

Also consider the benefits of Asmo out of the way. Any Forsaken welcomes this, but it's Taim who benefits most...but then there's many things that don't add up about Taim either and Jordan seems to remove him as a suspect.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

Quote:
1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

Not necessarily. Since the Shadow makes intentional hits at the end of LoC, it's a possibility. How does this preclude Asmo opening door, there's something scary nearby going about it's business that then snuffs him?

It precludes it because then the murder could not have been so quick, Asmo'd have had more time, something else than what happened would have happened. People are not computers, obviously Asmo since he was shocked to stopping and speaking, but also the one inside would have been surprised. Not knowing, he'd have had one second to kill Asmo after seeing him, all the while surprised and not knowing whether he's alone and saf to attack. The murder paragraph is clearly a two second thing. While opening the door Asmo thinks of the wine. After that he has no time to think of anything, just take on step and say two words. We have to trust RJ's writing, if this wasn't how he meant it, he would have written it otherwise.

Quote:
2. No one could have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

This is still neutral to naming a killer, and not necessary. Possible, yes.

All points separately are meant to be neutral. They are not biased in any way. Plain truth. I ask, how on earth would anyone otherwise have known Asmo was going to take that door.

Quote:
3. With very little warning, only a female channeller who could Travel could translocate himself from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds, without a male forsaken approaching that same door noticing.

Without later knowledge of reversing weaves, this is not possible for male or female, but is possible for either with reversing. Making a gateway large enough to step through takes a good bit of the power. Rahvin not noticing Lanfear's gateway in the prologue isn't the same as traveling from right behind him.

It is possible for female, male channellers cannot sense saidar. If you want the shiver, a shiver there was, so that doesn't preclude anything. Anticipating reversed weaves, I added the very little warning, which is realistic. Until Asmo approached the door, no one could have known he was going to take it, so in this instance, a follower would not have had time to reverse his weaves, which takes time, but to do the thing quickly. Of course we didn't know about reversing. I want to emphasise, that the point 3 in itself does not assume any following, or even speak of Asmodean, so it does not assume anything, it is a mere truth.

Well, I guess Semirhage and Mesaana might have had schemes concerning Rand, but at least we didn't know of them, they had in fact hardly even been mentioned. But at point 4 I only think of what the female forsaken were up to, it does not connect any of them to the murder by itself.

I disagree, we know the murderer knew beforehand. It is an ablosute must, no way otherwise could that have happened. Any more than someone could know another person when they meet them without recognising them.

Had Moiraine been able to expect Asmodean, she could have killed him, aside from being able to be there, but she could not have, however she phrased her request, because the finns don't give additional information.

Still, the Lanfear motive is an irrational motive, on rational grounds all the Forsaken had good motives.

I'm not going to debate this here, but I'll point out that I of course theorise that it was Graendal who set Taim up in the first place. I mentioned the reasons a few pages ago. This is of course irrelevant to the murder, before someone claims I saying otherwise.

Cybertrolloc · July 4, 2006

Still think you're reading too much into what "must" have happened. You allow for Graendal to trip over Asmo, I don't understand what the big deal is if she first sees him on the other side of the door. He's shielded and considered lowest on the Forsaken totem pole for a number of reasons--it doesn't really matter that she doesn't know about the shield. Channeling is near instantaneous as well, otherwise a lot more characters are dead many times over. Also Asmo isn't new to the power, he's going to know if he senses Saidar nearby. Almost any channeler in the series could look up and fry the blocked Asmo in any number of ways, it's only with non-channelers where it's a stretch that Asmo dies near instantly, and problems with Asmo knowing his murderer and knowing he's toast come into play (we know nothing of Asmo before we see him in the Waste).

Graendal has dealt with Rahvin and been in the Caemlyn palace. She doesn't have the same motive to go to Caemlyn post battle as she did in Illian, it's never given that Rahvin has something she would like to have. He tends to deal in more subterfuge and politicing than the other male Forsaken though, but that hardly seems a big deal.

Sidenote Taim: he rises to prominence in LoC, where we have prologue and epilogue of Dem. Later, the Black Tower is tied to Moridin as well (he was the interior decorator and there's the evil channeler sigil Rahvin and Be'lal used on his doors)...there isn't too much to tie Taim related stuff to Graendal, and Asmo is killed before Dem included her in his group's plan.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

I don't think so, looking at the implied scenario, it is a possibility for Graendal to ambush Asmodean. It has its strengths and weaknesses, as does blasting him from behind. The blasting allows for reflex action from Asmo's part, he is not shocked by Graendal, as he was in the paragraph. Asmo is far from new to the Power, but the goose-bump sense is not strong. Recall in the FoH prologue, Rahvin had not even noticed Graendal opening her gateway. The sense is a shiver that can be missed or taken for a natural shiver, as Asmo possibly did.

The question is not whether the attacker could kill Asmo, but whether he could kill Asmo in the way written. That is what the puzzle is, Asmo didn't die in the middle of a hallway, he died in that doorway. After he'd been clearly in view from inside one second.

The assumption, by the way, that everyone was playing according to Lanfear's plan, is clearly wrong, by the way. Rahvin didn't believe her. Why would Graendal believe anything Lanfear said. Lanfear didn't mean to the plan to work, she meant to team up with Rand and kill the others. None of Rahvin, Graendal, Lanfear would be stupid enough to believe Lanfear, all of them survived the War of Power, she will betray those who believe her just like the rest. The game was who would outplay whom.

Sidenote Taim: Mainly coincidence could tie Taim to Graendal, his rescue of Rand seems to be what Graendal would have wanted, with the exact timing, and her knowledge of Rand's actions in Caemlyn. After the PoD New Alliances I'd assume Moridin took Taim under his wing, as part of their allience. The decoration didn't come before that. But could be someone else behind her too, only Demandred seems less likely because he didn't recognise that Asha'man, and the double orders for Kisman.

July 4, 2006

Here is a blow by blow analyses of what did happen. I tried to be objective. Please tell me where you differ or feel something needs to be added. Hopefully this will show up clearly where the differences in interpretation of this crucial passage are to be found.

He pulled open a small door - would indicate it pulls out rather than pushes in, also purveys a certain randomness about the door, this takes one second

intending to find his way to the pantry - indicates he doesn't know where he is going

There should be some decent wine- a possible indication (in conjunction with the previous paragraph, too)that his mind is pondering and his eyes might not be foccused neccesarily on what's ahead. Would add another second to the time frame (Edit: I would allocate this second to include the step in the next bit).

One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. - taking a step before he stops might suggest that he wasn't looking ahead or that the person in the room (or hallway, or stairs..) is off to one side (maybe not visible) during the immediate proccess of opening the door. Might give that person time to recognise Asmo if it was an unexpected encounter. The blood draining from his face could indicate a wound/restrainement allready being inflicted on him.

"You - I would say this is proof that he recognises the person (if he had taken a wound at this point, wouldn't there be something like 'auhh' somewhere around here?) This in conjunction with the previous bit could be another second in the time frame. Edit: if the murderer is Graendal or Lanfear, the 'You' would probably be short and sharp... if it is Moiraine it would be a more leisurly pace as no immediate threat is perceived. Thus the time frame here probably depends on who is the murdere.

? - this can be translated in different ways. Shock, astonishment, incredulity and seems to be were the varying theories really begin to diverge. Greandal would equal shock, Moiraine would equal disbelief, Aviendhar would probably cause astonishment. There is no way to establish which of the reactions the questionmark stands for.

No!" - is the recognition of something about to happen which Asmo does not want to happen. The exclamation mark may also indicate that he raised his voice here and/or is in an agitated state. Also indicates that whoever was there is at this point engaged in an action, where as Asmo is not.

The word still hung in the air when death took him. - he died. Death itself seems to be fairly instant following the 'No!

:roll:

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

Where I differ, a good analysis otherwise, I merely concentrate on the timing:

He pulled open a small door intending to find his way to the pantry-- He is thinking about the pantry while he is pulling the door. He is walking normally, and thinking while he does so. He does not stop to think about it.

Normally, when one walks, the motion of pulling open a door is accompanied by a step behind it, or the motion becomes rather clumsy. Before he starts that motion, he will be at least partially blocked from view from inside the room by the door or the doorframe. He has to be at the side so as not to hit the door while swinging it open.

However, since Asmodean doesn't especially think about the door, it seems he was mostly interested in getting through it. So he opened it and took one step inside. Depending on the door, which was small and thus not a particularly heavy door, this does not take over two seconds, it takes less, a second.

The stopping does not take time, since it is merely a cessation of motion. By that time he HAD seen who was inside. The one inside may have spotted Asmo first, but she had not had over a second for it.

"You?", is an automatic response from his astonishment at seeing that person. It is an idiotic question, otherwise. The text doesn't go, "He could not believe his eyes, and finally asked 'You?'" He speaks immediately at stopping, and the "No!" follows immediately at its heels, he does not think about that person in between. Saying the two words cannot take more than a second, and before the No! the murderer had already had to have acted, since the No! indicates he has realised her intentions. And of course he died while saying it, or the words could not have hung in the air.

So my point is, when going it through using my bathroom door, I've reasoned that it takes two seconds for me to die, thinking of wine, taking one step inside, and saying the You? No!, and only if the person inside was expecting me could he kill me in that time, while otherwise something else bad would happen.

July 4, 2006

Egwene, if you add about another second between the "You?" and "No!", the timing is about on a par with what I mentioned earlier that it had to take at least 5 seconds (I've even mimed it with a timer), not 2 seconds as Graendal claims. Two seconds doesn't allow for Asmodeans initial distraction resulting from his current thoughts nor does it allow his mind enough time to register that he is seeing something so improbable.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

I have to give in a little. I tested it as objectively as I could, doing ten runs using my phone's timer. The series( 2,65; 2,70; 2,37; 3,26; 3,05; 2,54; 2,25; 3,39; 2,92; 2,63) produced an average length of 2,78 seconds. This is less than three seconds, starting from when I started to pull the door open, ending at the end of the word 'No!'. It is still too short a time, also considering, that at approximately 0,90 seconds, my head becomes clear of the doorway, thus establishing the time when I become recognisable from inside. Also, the action for the kill started before the No!, which means approximately 0,70 seconds more have to be substracted. This leaves 1,2 for the kill decision which is too little if the the person is surprised, and only enough for one prepared. Even taking my slowest run gives only 1,8 seconds in which to start the kill. It is not enough.

July 4, 2006

I guess I am in the middle here. I believe it to be less than 5 but more than 2. I'd probably settle for 3 to 3.5 seconds. However, I do believe that if that person knew someone (not neccessarily Asmo, he/she would have been ready to kill and thus even a second would be time enough to make that decision.

I used to do a lot of skydiving and always remember when I first started. You had to exit the plane, count three seconds and only then deploy your parachute. Those three seconds seemed to take for ever. When you are primed to go a second can be quite long. Certainly long enough for anyone from Moiraine, to Lanfear and Grandal. I do not believe that it gives one the edge over the others.

Edit: I have slightly changed the paragraph reference the 'You' bit in my previous post. In doing so, it really made me aware that the timeframe is going to differ by at least a second depending on who is the murderer. Any person that is not immediately perceived as a threat, will obviously not hav to act as fast, as Asmo is unlikely to take the initiative.

Jonn · July 4, 2006

Jonn, if you're not arguing for the sake of arguing, here is an equivalent set of points:
1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. No one could have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. With very little warning, only a female channeller who could Travel could translocate himself from one side of the door to the other in a few seconds, without a male forsaken approaching that same door noticing.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead. Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage were free. Of those, Graendal had been part of scheme(s) between the Forsaken, to which Rand was central.

You notice, your criticism is only about point 1. I thought it was clear in the earlier presentation(Edit, no disrespect there, I realise presentation is a skill of its own, and I'm used to turning things around in my head before putting them on paper), but this is an equivalent presentation, both hold exactly the same information content as far as the murder goes. 2 and 3 are just bland statements, but they are clearly true.

You claim 1 is wrong, but you ignore what is written in the paragraph. The murderers knowledge is not speculation, when it is the divider whether the murderer could act the way he did in that paragraph. It is clear cut, if we rule out the possibility of the killer knowing Asmo was coming before, then no one could have done it, and Asmo suffered a heart attack. It is the only explanation then. Jonn, you claim your approach is the only one allowed and right, but you are wrong.

No, it is you who claim that your approach is the only possible way. I never said your theory was impossible, just very flawed.

It's your attitude about it all that's incredible.

1. While that is certainly possible, you cannot discount that another scenario could have occured, so your absolute is not absolute. So you know what, don't claim that it is absolute.

The Moiraine theory already proves that you can allow for uncertainty and it still works out. Same parameters. She could have expected Asmodean as well, just as easily you know.

Rhuidean.

2. Again, you put a stipulation up that cannot be proven and call it an absolute.

Your point fails to address the scenario in which someone was simply on the other side of the door, Asmodean steps in, he shows recognition, and that person not wanting to be recognised destroys him.

Now, this scenario doesn't really help the one I support, but I can admit that it is a possibility however unlikely as I see it. It could have happened that way. I just don't think it did. It requires a certain kind of revelation in a literary sense and that timeframe has elapsed to the point where it would not be effective. The same goes for your scenario in which Graendal was stalking him, taking a huge risk in doing so for no tangible gain. Graendal is all about tangible gain.

He recognised his killer and had time to recognise, and utter two words. He shouted the last one so that it hung in the air.

This is the absolute I will present to you all:

The killer had to be on the other side of the door in order to be the killer.

That is the only thing you can say that is an absolute about that detail of the murder. There is no arguing about it, no questions. To stipulate any other detail is questionable and open for debate. So if your thoery adds anything otherwise, again, DON'T NAME IT UNASSAILABLE.

3. You failed to address my question.

Why warp behind a door when you could just sneak up behind the man, tap him on the shoulder and blast him before he can even make a full turn?

Graendal wouldn't even have to get that close. The fact that she could supposedly track him to the point that she could end up behind a door he is going through says that she could as easily have killed him without him even seeing her.

It's just as ludicrous as the scenario with her hiding in a closet and Asmodean accidentally walking in on her.

The point I make is that it requires too much mundane explanation to be plausible. These are explanations that are so mundane that they should have been mentioned through exposition and it makes no sense to omit them.

In any case, answer my question. it's in bold, so you can't miss it.

4. Again, you can't seem to get past that it could have been someone other than a female Forsaken. That incredibly narrow because at the time males were in the running as well.

When the book was published, the readers knew all of the Forsaken could have had a shot, including Sammael.

It should have struck the reader as odd that the revelation of which one it was never came. If it doesn't strike you as odd, you need to re-evaluate your single-minded resolve.

I'm not buying this business that RJ intends to reveal it after the series is over. That strikes me as way too gimmicky for him to be trying to pull.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

Since there is such a vast communication gap here between us, I am not going to bother answering that. This is getting us nowhere. I did not answer your question since I'd already discussed it with many people in the previous pages, and it was irrelevant in the context you put it. Since you don't understand what I'm saying, I will not clarify it to you further.

Jonn · July 4, 2006

Since there is such a vast communication gap here between us, I am not going to bother answering that. This is getting us nowhere. I did not answer your question since I'd already discussed it with many people in the previous pages, and it was irrelevant in the context you put it. Since you don't understand what I'm saying, I will not clarify it to you further.

In other words, you can't answer it, so you're avoiding it.

It is a question related to your point, which was supposedly unquestionable. Why not answer it?

I'll take a stab at it.

There is no reasoning behind it. It makes no sense to not kill him right off. To answer that question would unravel a large part of your theory.

Of course you won't answer the question.

Graendals favourite · July 4, 2006

If you want an answer, you can read some of the previous posts, or think about it yourself. But as I said, I find this dialogue of ours not productive or particularly appealing, so I shall abstain from it.

Jonn · July 4, 2006

If you want an answer, you can read some of the previous posts, or think about it yourself. But as I said, I find this dialogue of ours not productive or particularly appealing, so I shall abstain from it.

I have read those posts and the answer was decidedly lacking.

Which leads me to the point that to insist that it happened the way you described is in fact, quite questionable.

I mean come on...You see someone alone in a hallway or part of a palace that is empty, and...

You Travel into a room ahead of them to kill them? Just kill them when their back is turned.

Your hypothesis says that Graendal saw him in the courtyard. She tracked him to the area where he was alone. She had a positive ID on him. Just kill him and leave. Why add the extra step? Why give him the chance to see you and perhaps lash out?

You can't be any more surprised than to be dead without any warning. It's stupid to give that warning.

On just this point your theory falls apart.

July 7, 2006

I think Graendal's fav does make some good points, Jonn. I just happen to think that the points for both Moiraine and Lanfear are better.

However, whoever is your suspect, where does your interpretation of the actual 'death scene' differ from the one I tried to put together. I'd like to include everyones ideas about what happens.