one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jonn]

So what you are saying is that you can say whatever you want and call it a theory?

 

It doesn't work that way. You have to have some basis that your theory may be true or may prove true.

 

The whole point of a theory is to prove that it is true or false. It is all predicated by whether or not it makes some sense.

 

How do you suppose people would react if I said something like: RJ hates puppies and would kick one as soon as pet one.

 

First, it sounds ridiculous and slanderous even, but do we know if it's true? The next step is proof of the statement's truth or falsehood. If I fail to support my statement with any reasoning or proof of reference, my statement is as good as false.

 

That is what makes a statement or idea credible or not. You make too many statements with no credibility, for having said it, you lose credibility.

 

It's a simple concept.

 

Back your ideas up logically or no one will take what you say seriously.

[Graendals favourite]

You know, this isn't the thread. If I wanted to bring forth a complete theory which had substantial evidence confirming it more than very likely, I would start a new thread for it. This is a who killed Asmo thread, and even the current discussion apparently was originally about the murder's supposed consequences, moving on into more general consequences of the Forsakens' actions.

 

Now, I think I said what I thought about the theories, or if you will, let us call them possibilities. However, I obviously would not mention them if i didn't think there was something going for them. I do not claim I have thought of everything, and I have to say I have not made an effort. However, I did provide the rational behind the possibilities, as well as references to events that suggest them. Note, 'suggest' is not the same as 'means.' If I say, 'Taim's slips', I expect anyone who is really interested to know I mean his 'so-called Aiel' and the like. Saving Rand from Sevanna: Not from Mesaana, in a place where saidar is channelled in loads, Sevanna probable to place Rand into Sammael's hands, Graendal wanting to stop Sammael winning a truce, Sammael and Graendal's exchange in CoS etc.

 

If you're interested, you will put enough effort into it to realise those, but this isn't the thread, since that has nothing to do with Asmo. Perhaps the other way around, but the murder is proven, Taim is just consequential. In this thread that is an example of a possible side action of a Forsaken, the same as Mesaana's supposed interest in the Amayar. To show they are possible. Instead of elaborately declaiming how I've lost credibility in your eyes, you could simply say you disagree. Of course a proof may/should come in MoL, but until then it is still a theory, and it is both true and false at the same time, as far as we can determine.

 

Perhaps I should elaborate that last. In physics theories are those that fit the known physical phenomina, where they apply. However, they are never proven to be true; the only thing known is they are true as far as can be determined in fixed circumstances.

[Guest Egwene]

Just a post to make sure the thread doesn't dissapear

 

If you haven't as yet done so, please vote in the poll. I kind of have the idea to make it the most comprehensive poll on this topic... ever!! It probably won't make the Guiness Book of Records... but I'd love to see just how many people agree on the various suspects.

 

Thanks everyone!!

[Dragonsworn]

I know this thread is old but I'm new to the site...

 

How is it Graendal is the popular vote getter??? She's barely made an appearance in the books!

 

Lanfear did it and RJ is very blunt about his clues when he gives them. The clue is in book 4 or 5 (sorry but my books are packed away.)

 

Rand already has Asmo as a teacher and Lanfear keeps herself close. Lanfear and Asmo have a little talk where she says she will kill him if she thinks he has become to close to Rand and might turn against the Shadow.

 

Lanfear went through the twisted mirror prior to Asmos death. It was mentioned many times about what the Finns would do to things that touch the Shadow; we also know time works differently there too.

 

So it's not unreasonable to believe Lanfear went through the mirror and was promptly killed by Finns. In death, the DO brought her soul back in the other body. She goes to where Asmo is and disposes of him.

We know that Asmo knew his killer and was surprised to see the killer...Lanfear is the only choice.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Dragonsworn: How Graendal is the leading candidate for the murder is one of the great mysteries of the Wheel of Time. It's an even greater mystery than who killed Asmodean. That was Moiraine and not Lanfear by the way. RJ did everything but beat us over the head with that fact when he wrote the scene.

 

You'll find a lot of people want to credit Graendal with a lot of things. They don't like the fact that there is nothing to support her being anything but a bungler during the 3rd Age.

[Jonn]

You know, this isn't the thread. If I wanted to bring forth a complete theory which had substantial evidence confirming it more than very likely, I would start a new thread for it. This is a who killed Asmo thread, and even the current discussion apparently was originally about the murder's supposed consequences, moving on into more general consequences of the Forsakens' actions.

 

Now, I think I said what I thought about the theories, or if you will, let us call them possibilities. However, I obviously would not mention them if i didn't think there was something going for them. I do not claim I have thought of everything, and I have to say I have not made an effort. However, I did provide the rational behind the possibilities, as well as references to events that suggest them. Note, 'suggest' is not the same as 'means.' If I say, 'Taim's slips', I expect anyone who is really interested to know I mean his 'so-called Aiel' and the like. Saving Rand from Sevanna: Not from Mesaana, in a place where saidar is channelled in loads, Sevanna probable to place Rand into Sammael's hands, Graendal wanting to stop Sammael winning a truce, Sammael and Graendal's exchange in CoS etc.

 

If you're interested, you will put enough effort into it to realise those, but this isn't the thread, since that has nothing to do with Asmo. Perhaps the other way around, but the murder is proven, Taim is just consequential. In this thread that is an example of a possible side action of a Forsaken, the same as Mesaana's supposed interest in the Amayar. To show they are possible. Instead of elaborately declaiming how I've lost credibility in your eyes, you could simply say you disagree. Of course a proof may/should come in MoL, but until then it is still a theory, and it is both true and false at the same time, as far as we can determine.

 

Perhaps I should elaborate that last. In physics theories are those that fit the known physical phenomina, where they apply. However, they are never proven to be true; the only thing known is they are true as far as can be determined in fixed circumstances.

 

You just lost me. I have next to no idea what you are talking about.

You're referencing ideas that you've had IN YOUR HEAD, not mine.

For me or anyone else to understand you, you have to EXPLAIN YOUR THEORY.

 

It has to make sense as well. You can't just say a bunch of disjointed phrases and fragments of a theory you have and expect the rest of us to follow with what only makes sense to you.

 

As it stands, it all sounds like deperation because Graendal's case gets weaker and weaker every time someone presses on one of the many doubts surrounding her involvement.

 

You seem to be trying to connect all of these gambits and conspiracies involving other Forsaken to prove that Graendal is somehow the undisputed killer.

 

It doesn't work that way. The more complicated it gets, the more you have to go outside of the actual circumstances of the murder, the weaker the case gets for Graendal as the murderer.

 

How does a semi-theory linking Mesaana to the Amayar mass suicide, prove Graendal's guilt in Asmodean's murder? What is this malarkey about..you know what..I'll say no more, because I'm just baffled here.

 

The murder is about motive, opportunity and ability. Finally there's gain from the act for verification of the motive. Let's go with these parameters and leave all of the smoke and mirrors out of it.

[mike]

this is a worn subject that has little bearing. why does GREEN KRYPTONITE kill superman?

lanfear was the one who put rand and assmo together and the others found out. graendel is a cut throat and would do asmo for being a traiter after being urged; also for the thrill of the kill. if i am wrong, so be it.

 

i like the series and the podcasts and that is why i signed onto this place but feel as i am at a midnite matinee watching "rocky horror pictureshow" during the early 80s in some of these forums.

 

i didn't join the kiss army in the 70s.

[Dragonsworn]

How is it Moi? She should be trapped inside the Tower of Jenji (or something like that.)

[Dragonsworn]

I'd like someone to explain how too. And where has she been for all these books? Thom's letter is clear about where she is.

I'm not going to read all 90 pages!

[Guest Egwene]

Moiraine and Lanfear both fell through the door and at that point became subject to the peculiar rules of the Finns. I believe that she utterd a wish that was by the Finns translated into giving her the opportunity to kill Asmo.

 

It makes sense to me that Moiraine might have said something like 'I want to help the Dragon Reborn and free the world of the DO's minions'. She finds herself in a room, door opens and Asmo walks in... Moiraine is quicker because Asmo is so stunned to see the dead alive and also doesn't know that she is a threat to him. At that point the Finns pull her back in because she might have also said that she wants to be in the tower of G. (having forseen a possible rescue from there).

 

There is nothing in the books to say this scenario is impossible nor even that it is unlikely. The fact that Moiraine had some hints of future happenings makes her in fact a more likely candidate.

 

Mike... I only started looking at WoT sites a few months ago. There are a lot of people here like me to whom all this analysing is pretty new. Some are in fact recent newcomers to the books itself. For myself, I find it a lot more fun analysing by discussion than by reading a synopsis posted somewhere. Hope you don't mind if we carry on experiencing something for ourselves, which you had the good fortune to encounter years ago. :)

[Graendals favourite]

Jonn, good then there's two of us who are lost. Well, it appears you assume I was talking about the murder, which I wasn't, I was speaking about the current discussion, the Forsaken and Graendal is particular, what they may have been up to. To that ground what I said was sufficient. So to clarify, the murder may have been relevant to the killer, but speculation of what occurred later does not solve the murder, and neither does speculation about different people's characters.

 

In my opinion, the murder itself is solved, and I have presented the evidence a few times in this thread already, so I'm not about to jump too easily to repeat myself. This does not stop me from discussing other things, though. Yes, Jonn, I too believe when the case is commanding in itself, superfluous and speculative arguments added only weaken it, so as bare-bone presention as possible is best.

 

Very little aside from Glowing Embers is needed to figure out the killer. To recap the solution, very simply:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

 

There's more things, some support, some explain, most in that chapter. The thing is, there isn't a question I haven't thought up a natural answer to, also supported by the book, and the implied chain of events also makes perfect sense from the point of view of the killer, so its clear the case is closed.

 

So, Jonn, you understand I'm more interested in what this means Graendal was up to elsewhere, if it means something.

[Jonn]

Jonn, good then there's two of us who are lost. Well, it appears you assume I was talking about the murder, which I wasn't, I was speaking about the current discussion, the Forsaken and Graendal is particular, what they may have been up to. To that ground what I said was sufficient. So to clarify, the murder may have been relevant to the killer, but speculation of what occurred later does not solve the murder, and neither does speculation about different people's characters.

 

In my opinion, the murder itself is solved, and I have presented the evidence a few times in this thread already, so I'm not about to jump too easily to repeat myself. This does not stop me from discussing other things, though. Yes, Jonn, I too believe when the case is commanding in itself, superfluous and speculative arguments added only weaken it, so as bare-bone presention as possible is best.

 

Very little aside from Glowing Embers is needed to figure out the killer. To recap the solution, very simply:

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

 

OK, now we're on grounds here to continue...

 

The means don't add up. You're saying that Graendal was hiding, rather improbably in one of the most dangerous places one of the Forsaken can be at the time.

On top of that she spots someone who could recognize her and stalks him through a palace we really have no inkling to believe that she knows her way around.

 

She sees an opportunity to kill Asmodean and then, here's teh most questionable bit...She travels behind the door he is about to go through, without alarming anyone, and kills him...

 

I thought you had to know pretty well where you are going to put a gateway somewhere you cannot see. a) This is Rahvin's territory. I can't see Graendal just being able to wander around getting the lay of things in the palace, before or after Rahvin's death. Remember, there was a full blown battle in the palace just hours before. Who has time to scout out every passage and doorway, and why?

b) How can she have any idea where that door leads? for all she knows there are people on the other side and her slicing through them with a gateway would probably tip more than just Asmodean off.

 

Let's go to motive for a bit. Why then? Why go after Asmodean then, just a few hours after you might have been some help to Rahvin? There was a battle there where someone more powerful than her went down to the Dragon Reborn. Weigh the risk to gain ratio here. Rand is stil there, Aviendha, thousands of warriors and Asmodean. We have a couple of possibilities. Graendal is there specifically to kill Asmodean all along (no proof of this). The second possibility is that she somehow lucked out and caught him wandering alone and decided to risk discovery to dispatch him.

 

This is all moot of course until we can discover why she was there in the first place. For what reason? You and others keep playing the whole meeting in TAR excuse to try to sew it all up. There's something wrong with the timing though. How does she get there without being noticed, and why is she there at that time. If she was there during the battle, why didn't she participate? If she came afterward, why would she stay when the Dragon was still about? To kill Asmodean? Again: Risk vs. Gain...

 

Risk = Getting caught by Rand and his forces and maybe get killed or captured.

 

Gain = ...What is it?

 

Kill Asmodean? Where is the gain in that weighed against the risk?

 

The murder had to be careful, calculated and flawless. Nothing in the books leads me to believe that Graendal would put the effort into the execution.

 

This murder is solved GF? So many gaps in the puzzle and you say it's solved...Forgive me for saying this, but you're not the detective I would want to solve my murder.

[Graendals favourite]

Those questions are good questions, but they are secondary. I'm not for instance saying Graendal was hiding, I'm saying it was Graendal who killed Asmodean. Yes, and she did it by Travelling. So I emphasise (since I've done this before): The above four points prove it was Graendal who did it. They do not as such explain everything.

 

 

I will address the points you raise, but it is not necessary to prove anything beyond that Graendal did it.

 

So:

 

The means don't add up. You're saying that Graendal was hiding, rather improbably in one of the most dangerous places one of the Forsaken can be at the time.

On top of that she spots someone who could recognize her and stalks him through a palace we really have no inkling to believe that she knows her way around.

I'm not saying she was hiding. At least I doubt it. A disguised Graendal is no different from a servant, or she could be invisible. We know this is possible at the time of murder. Even Marigan could have walked through the palace easily. So the answer is Graendal's best shot at staying undetected, the way she did in Sammael's rooms when she rummaged through his stuff with Rand and the Asha'man around.

 

I thought you had to know pretty well where you are going to put a gateway somewhere you cannot see. a) This is Rahvin's territory. I can't see Graendal just being able to wander around getting the lay of things in the palace, before or after Rahvin's death. Remember, there was a full blown battle in the palace just hours before. Who has time to scout out every passage and doorway, and why?

b) How can she have any idea where that door leads? for all she knows there are people on the other side and her slicing through them with a gateway would probably tip more than just Asmodean off.

Yes, a stricking ambush, but it was the only way the murder could have been carried out. All Graendal needs to do is follow Asmodean. After all in all likelihood she first saw him at the fountain where he was playing his harp. She sees the door as Asmo approaches it. She can very well open a gateway beyond. This has been done before, travelling inside, so Graendal must also be capable of it. The risk of anyone being there is extremely small. The door is small, and the palace is empty of people. Since she is going to do this thing, yes execute the renegade, then that's the good enough opportunity to ambush him.

 

 

Let's go to motive for a bit. Why then? Why go after Asmodean then, just a few hours after you might have been some help to Rahvin? There was a battle there where someone more powerful than her went down to the Dragon Reborn. Weigh the risk to gain ratio here. Rand is stil there, Aviendha, thousands of warriors and Asmodean. We have a couple of possibilities. Graendal is there specifically to kill Asmodean all along (no proof of this). The second possibility is that she somehow lucked out and caught him wandering alone and decided to risk discovery to dispatch him.

I emphasise again that it was proven to be Graendal already. The motive is speculation, because there are several possible motives. Removing the renegade is one. Remove someone who knew her location perhaps. There's even more specific reasons, but they are speculation. For her to be there, well to know what was going on is good enough reason. It is relevant for her to know if Rahvin or Rand is dead, for instance. We now know she will have no trouble going there, reverse the gateway and invert a mask, she will be in no danger. The question is rather, why would she not go there to see? Aah, and with Asmo spending time in the garden, he was pretty much bound to be seen by anyone coming to see what had happened.

 

This is all moot of course until we can discover why she was there in the first place. For what reason? You and others keep playing the whole meeting in TAR excuse to try to sew it all up. There's something wrong with the timing though. How does she get there without being noticed, and why is she there at that time. If she was there during the battle, why didn't she participate? If she came afterward, why would she stay when the Dragon was still about? To kill Asmodean? Again: Risk vs. Gain...

Yes, risk/gain. That's why she followed Asmodean to see if she could kill him with little risk; she was not caught. But we can only speculate the reason, to know it we would have to ask her. That could be proven. Whatever reason, however, we know she did it. I'll yet point out there's many ways for her to have known Rand was going to Caemlyn. For all we know she might have ensured the news of Morgase reached Rand. There's reason to suspect Melindhra was her creature. It is also not unlikely Graendal knew or suspected Rahvin had his traps; if not, then how did Moghedien know about them, unless he told her directly(seems unlikely). As to why, if she was there at the time of battle, why not help, well why help. It is the same, the only answer lies in her head.

You need to put a weight ratio on the risk and gain too. The chance of exposure was practically zero. Gain, is specualtion, the Dark One's approval, helping her schemes, removing the already too strong Rand's teacher.

 

Yes, it was very well executed. I say nothing in the books says she would not put enough effort into what she thinks is worth it. And she wants to be Nae'blis, how would she achieve this if she did nothing?

 

 

The puzzle is solved, but the answers you want are not the puzzle. This is like having a murder weapon with fingerprints. The fingerprints are Graendal's, so it was her, and we can speculate about the rest. You complicate what is simple.

[Jonn]

Incredible.

 

So you're saying that the whole reason Graendal is the murderer is because you say so?

 

Look, I'm not one who is lost on the irony when I say this: THAT IS INCREDIBLY ARROGANT.

 

Short of the text saying that IT WAS GRAENDAL, and I mean just like that in bold print and capitalized, none of your "evidence" stands alone as unassailable truth. Absolutely not.

 

You contradict yourself in so fast a succession of statements that it makes my head hurt.

 

it is not necessary to prove anything beyond that Graendal did it.

 

What the heck are you talking about? Are you insane? When was Graendal's name ever mentioned anywhere near the passage where the murder takes place? From where are we supposed to hone in on just Graendal? Where is the vital clue? THERE IS NONE. There is no portion of text that stamps the murder on one person in one sentence, so to come to one conclusion without questioning how you came to it is literally crazy.

 

The fact that you are so single-minded and unquestioning in your resolve makes you completely unreliable as a source of reason.

 

Fingerprints? You act like Graendal is a home run case. That, my friend, is delusional with a capital D.

 

Look, don't predicate every answer with this insulting tripe about how Graendal is the ultimate answer. Just answer the question and I'll get back to your answer with a response. That's how it works.

[mike]

"Egwene"

 

Mike... I only started looking at WoT sites a few months ago. There are a lot of people here like me to whom all this analysing is pretty new. Some are in fact recent newcomers to the books itself. For myself, I find it a lot more fun analysing by discussion than by reading a synopsis posted somewhere. Hope you don't mind if we carry on experiencing something for ourselves, which you had the good fortune to encounter years ago.

 

little sister,

i have no real qualms with it.

did you ever see rocky horrorshow at a midnite matinee? if so you would know full well what i meant.

these books were written with so much detail one learns to observe points in life that might have gone unnoticed. skirt smoothing is almost cliche but watch people in real life and they do pick at their clothing to make it lay the way they imagine.

 

i like the series but for me it is growing long in the tooth. the intrigue has gone past me like a lot of birthdays so i just wait for the next book. i read a lot of other things and play guitar so my mind doesn't fixate on this topic unless i am in the middle of a book and then i may have a wacky perrin dream! yep, having a dream about a book is weird.

 

i am sorry if i stepped on toes. :oops:

[Graendals favourite]

I'm saying Graendal is the one because of those four points I recapped there. That is what I've been saying for this whole thread. Those points make Graendal the killer. None other was able, at least Mesaana and Semirhage obviously were not the killer.

 

Jonn, I may very well be insane, but it is you who refuse to consider the evidence presented. The clues are there if you look for and notice them. If you don't, it is no wonder you will not find the answer.

 

What you do, is not address the evidence. You are fixed on building the same case for everyone, opportunity, motive and ability on a general level, so you will not see the simple answer that is written between the lines of Asmo's pov. Many people can be speculated to have motive, and opportunity and ability are linked. I would be able to kill Asmodean in some circumstances, but if he just stumbled on me, no. The bottom line is, whoever was whatever had whatever, the one who killed Asmo was the one who killed Asmo, and that person was there to do the deed.

[Guest Egwene]

Mike... no worries, I was speaking on behalf of my newbies as much as anyone else. With a site like this it is inevitable that you get people at all stages of the love affair with WoT. I am trying to encourage those new to the series to have those fun discussions that some have had for years...

 

NO, no, no!!

1. The murder was carried out by someone who was expecting Asmodean, and only Asmodean, to come in through that door. This is proven by the manner of the killing, it was very quick and Asmodean didn't have a chance to defend himself, so the murderer had to be prepared to do exactly what he did and know he could do it safely.

2. The murderer could not have known Asmodean was going to walk through the door unless he saw him approach it, the door being random.

3. Only a female channeller who could Travel could have translocated himself from one side of the door to the other in that time, without Asmodean noticing, so it had to be one of the female Forsaken.

4. Of the female Forsaken, Moghedien and Lanfear were trapped or dead, so it was one of the three that were free. Only Graendal however knew of any significance to the day, or Caemlyn. So it was her.

 

1) The murder was not carried out quickly. If you are that prepared, you don't let your victim say that much... Asmo was soooo suprised/shocked, to see whoever it was, that it was him who was slow, rather than the other person being quick. Matter of calling a glass half full or half empty

 

2) where is the point in favour of Graendal here?

 

3) We can claim this same point for Moiraine. She could have been put there by the Finns.

 

4) This point only narrows the choice amongst the forsaken, it does nothing to eliminate anyone else, or make Graendal's case stronger against them.

 

I fail to see any point here that makes Graendal more likely than Moiraine.

[Graendals favourite]

Egwene no, on the contrary, it was a quick kill. Look:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

That is two seconds maximum, and Asmodean hadn't yet entered the room beyond the door, he was barely into the doorway. He pulled the door open, took one step into it, while taking it he saw the murderer, was shocked by her, so stopped and said what he did. By the time the "no" came he had realised the murderer was going to kill him. The murderer could have seen Asmodean only for a second. If he didn't expect Asmodean, he would have been as shocked, he could not have reacted that quickly. Also he could not have known Asmo was alone so he could do it safely. I use he, so as not to refer to anyone, but it applies also to Moiraine and Lanfear-- had they been popped beyond the door, which I don't believe is possible, they could not have known Asmo was going to come through, and would have been surprised. This would have given also Asmodean a chance to do something. It might have resulted in Asmodean's death anyway, but not the way the text went. By that quote, it is clear beyond doubt the murderer expected Asmo to open the door and be alone.

 

Graendal killed Asmo quickly, but for the master of psychology it is sensible to allow Asmo to be shocked and even further unable to act. This is what Hannibal Lecter does, too, if you've seen the movies.

 

The point in Graendal's favour is she is among the three who had the power to know Asmo was coming, the other being Mesaana and Semirhage. They could see Asmo on the other side, and get in place quickly enough by Travelling, ie they could do it the way it is written.

 

So, the 1:4 together name the killer. They say the murderer had to have first seen Asmo on the other side of the door and travelled to ambush him using saidar. Only three were capable of this, and thus it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that it was Graendal, not Semirhage or Mesaana.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Graendal killed Asmo quickly, but for the master of psychology it is sensible to allow Asmo to be shocked and even further unable to act. This is what Hannibal Lecter does, too, if you've seen the movies.

 

Graendal and Hannibal Lecter aren't even remotely comparable subjects. Hannibal Lecter is a sadist that takes part of his pleasure from the terror and helplessness that he can inspire in an already helpless victim. Graendal is a hedonist that takes her pleasure from the devotion and adoration she can inspire from others. She is also not a "master of psychology." She overestimates her ability to manipulate others with the result that she ends up being manipulated by them.

 

Please give up on the whole idea that it is good tactics to allow yourself to be seen when attempting an ambush. That isn't psychological warfare, that is tactical suicide. Hannibal Lecter gets away with it because he knows that his victims do not have the meens to defend themselves. Graendal has no such knowledge concerning Asmodean and therefore would not risk toying with him. When doing an ambush, any kind, you strike from concealment. That is what gives you the benefit of surprise. If the target survives the initial attack, they still need to locate you before they can strike back. By revealing yourself, you are not only gambling on your reaction time being better than that of your target, but you are giving up the chance to strike again while your oponent is still trying to locate you.

 

If the murderer was in a position to know that Asmodean was going to go into that room and could safely open a gateway unobserved, the murderer was already in a perfect ambush position. Without intimate knowledge of the palace, the murderer would have had to be in the same corridor as Asmodean. Anyone that would have seen an attack on Asmodean would have been in a position to witness the opening of the Gateway.

[Graendals favourite]

Graendal and Hannibal Lecter aren't even remotely comparable subjects. Hannibal Lecter is a sadist that takes part of his pleasure from the terror and helplessness that he can inspire in an already helpless victim. Graendal is a hedonist that takes her pleasure from the devotion and adoration she can inspire from others. She is also not a "master of psychology." She overestimates her ability to manipulate others with the result that she ends up being manipulated by them.

 

Please give up on the whole idea that it is good tactics to allow yourself to be seen when attempting an ambush. That isn't psychological warfare, that is tactical suicide. Hannibal Lecter gets away with it because he knows that his victims do not have the meens to defend themselves. Graendal has no such knowledge concerning Asmodean and therefore would not risk toying with him. When doing an ambush, any kind, you strike from concealment. That is what gives you the benefit of surprise. If the target survives the initial attack, they still need to locate you before they can strike back. By revealing yourself, you are not only gambling on your reaction time being better than that of your target, but you are giving up the chance to strike again while your oponent is still trying to locate you.

 

If the murderer was in a position to know that Asmodean was going to go into that room and could safely open a gateway unobserved, the murderer was already in a perfect ambush position. Without intimate knowledge of the palace, the murderer would have had to be in the same corridor as Asmodean. Anyone that would have seen an attack on Asmodean would have been in a position to witness the opening of the Gateway.

Edit: added quote because new page started.

 

Graendal and Hannibal are compareable because they are both top-notch psychiatrists. Her name was Kamarile Maradim Nindar, the third name a mark of her achievements in her field. I quote the BWB: "Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived." CW, the people of the Age of Legends do not agree with your estimation of her capabilities. As a further connection between the two, "While her public calls for a sparse life were always moderate, in private she was inevitably abrasive and cutting toward anyone who did not live up to her standards of simplicity, which meant toward everyone." Hannibal fed the orchestra the member who did not play that piece of music up to his standards.

 

I will not give the idea up, because the results speak otherwise. Asmodean WAS unable to defend himself. Had he not been surprised and shocked, instead of stopping and speaking he could have seized saidin and defended himself. Or dodged into the hallway behind. Also, she did not wait long. The interval is about the same as human reaction time, after Asmo had come fully into view. Her reaction time started after the door opened and she could see him clearly, which amounts to a second at most.

 

The shock factor removed the chance of reflex action by Asmodean's part. That is why she was unmasked. Being behind the random door Asmo chose also gave her a close shot, not impeded by anything, but being very close. It was not because of witnesses she did it so, but because this was the strongest thing she could do. If she was found out, she was capable of fleeing any time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm not talking about the Graendal of the Age of Legends who was at her peak, so I really don't care what the 2nd Agers thought of her. I'm talking about the Graendal that was recently released from the Bore. The one whose only surviving compatriots think about how she never realized that people saw through her schemes and manipulations because she did the same thing everytime. I'm talking about the Graendal that the books have revealed to be a has been.

 

The only way that the results speak in favour of Graendal is if you have already convinced yourself that Graendal is the murderer. Asmodean was surprised yes, but it wasn't panic, it was confusion. He didn't panic until after the person he saw began to act and he realized it was all over. Considering his thoughts about how any of the Forsaken would kill him given the oportunity, he would have immediately panicked upon seeing her. That fact doesn't just speak against Graendal, it speaks against any of the Foresaken being the murderer.

 

I will state again that you cannot compare Hannibal Lecter and Graendal. Having a shared educational background or occupation does not meen they are going to behave the same. They are still two completely different personality profiles and are motivated by completely different desires. Hannibal did what he did because he thrived on his victims fear. If you want to compare him to anyone in the books, compare him to Semirhage. At least she shares similar likes and motivations.

[Graendals favourite]

I agree comparisons between the two stop quite soon. Edit: They should still both be very knowledgeable about the human mind and human reactions.

 

Well, of course the results speak in Graendal's favour, because whatever her rational, the four points point her out, it still had to be her. We can only try to understand the why, but that is not too difficult.

 

Actually, Asmodean was shocked upon recognition. The blood didn't drain from his face because of confusion.

 

But the books haven't revealed what she is. We haven't got the complete picture. Yes, she failed with Sammael, but anyone can fail, and it was hardly Sammael's intended plan that happened. He got lucky. "The truth no longer matters."

(Mixed the answering paragraphs a bit)

[Justin]

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

It sounds as if he is afraid then confused and then he started to panic when death was upon him. To me it seems as though the person in the room is another man that can channel, and when Asmodean sees the weave of saidin being woven he paniced because he recognized it as a weave of death.

I just wonder what would be the reason to kill him at that time. Would have been better to off him before he could teach Rand too much.

It could all be a ploy for all I know. Maybe they didn't kill him after all, but instead death took him... somewhere. Since Asmodean would know Rand more personaly then any other forsaken, he will weave a disguise in the likeness of Rand and become the puppet in Egwene's prophetic dream.

[Dragonsworn]

It was Lanfear!

[Graendals favourite]

But, Justin, the blood drained while he stopped, before he even said "You?". He had had only one step into the doorway at the recognition, clearly he was immediately terrified. Graendal already had a weave ready, and had released it before the "No!" when Asmo realised what was coming.

 

DS, Lanfear wasn't free to ambush him .