one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[havoc110]

Maybe if it turns out that Ituralde is under some form of buried Compulsion from Graendal. And perhaps

if Turan is under similar Compulsion from Semi, the Dark might have something, at least a really big army in the field.

 

But current evidence points against it. Ituralde seems to have shaken off Graendal's attempted influence, and is in position to rout the Seanchan. Perhaps uniting Arad Doman himself.

 

What then? What to show for all that work, supposedly on a grand scale?

[Guest cwestervelt]

How are the united under Graendal? Ituralde is avoiding messagers from the "king" and has ordered the others to do the same.

 

Over-estimation of people and abilities has been a common recurring theme throughout the books. Why should it be so difficult to accept that the Forsaken were also over-estimated?

 

Another theme of the books is that unity is necessary to defeat evil. Arad Doman is now more united than they have ever been in the stories. Do to the shared Seanchan threat, you have closer unity between Tarabon and Arad Doman as well. The have seen that they can work together towards a common goal. That unity is what is needed for Rand to win the last Battle and is the last thing the Forsaken want ot happen. The Forsaken and the Shadow's only chance of winning was to strike before the Light could establish that unity. That is because Forsaken cannot work together for a common goal. They can be pointed at the a common objective, but they go about it as individuals.

[Graendals favourite]

But what unity is there? In Arad Doman, there will soon be Seanchan, Rander, and Domani forces fighting it out, it seems.

 

The rest of the world? Seanchan dunno what will happen. Murandy might be Demandreds. Taim might have a big bunch of dreadlords and soon dark Aes Sedai. There's a big Borderlander army south that might be doing the Shadow's bidding. The white tower is still divided in three. Most of the nations are weak from war. True, the Light's leaders are doing well, but they are only leaders, and the Dark has their match in the Forsaken.

 

If asked about Graendal's grand scale, I point to Taim and a large network of Darkfriends.

[Llewin]

Some things to consider.

 

First, when the Forsaken (all 100+ of them or whatever) were fighting in the War of Power they had the benefit of direct influence of the Dark One, they also had the benefit of very high technology, and familiarity with the world around them. Many of them were already in positions of authority or power...

 

The Dark One's forces took control of many large and key areas in the first years after the Bore was opened... These Forsaken already had a strong backing and were able to sit in their respective 'governances' for many years ...giving them ample time, space, and security to commit their atrocities.

 

Lets take a look at who the Forsaken were in reality and what they were actually known for...

 

Mesanna... taught children the worship the Dark One and kill people... Pretty horrible right? but certainly not "god like evil"

 

Semirhage... tortured people for pleasure, turning many to the Dark in this way... Horrible, but again, not something i'd call 'god like evil'

 

Aginor... created shadowspawn, definitely horrible but the Trollocs weren't even controllable until the throwback Myrddraal were born... However, he definitely had a strong influence in helping the Dark to fight effectively by giving them specialized attack creatures (dark hounds, gholam, draakhar, etc.) and a virtually unlimited supply of soldiers through the Trollocs... However even the other Forsaken say the only reason he was so prominent as a "chosen" was because of his genius in genetics...

 

Balthamel, womanizer, good General in battle, generaly had his territory in a state of high violence. Once again in reality, he was formidible *as a person* but certainly not Godlike...

 

The list goes on in much the same way. The Forsaken were formidible in their way, in their specialty, but certainly not ever Godlike.

 

One possible exception is Ishamael who it seems was constantly near the top of the pyramid and constantly had to work to keep the other Chosen in line with 'the game plan'...

 

How true that must be since all of the Forsaken immediately went off and did their own thing once Rand offed him in book 3, however now that he's back as Moridin, they are all coming back in line and the Shadow with Moridin as Naeblis and Shadar Haran as the direct acting hand and voice of the Dark One himself, are consolidating their power and moving as one finally...

 

Does this mean that the forces of the Dark One have been bumbling idiots? No, but it definitely means they've been human, and if they hadnt been then the woolheaded sheepherder from the two rivers and his crew would have been cut to ribbons before he ever reached the Stone in book 3... The only saving grace Rand and co. have recieved apart from the random happenstance of being or being around ta'veren... is that the Shadow wasnt what it seemed at first (an unstoppable force of pure evil...) Why? Because the Dark One wasnt free yet to directly affect things...

[havoc110]

Look at all the chances that Dark has had for Shadow Controlled lands:

 

Illian

Arad Doman

Andor

Seanchan

 

That encompasses a lot of Randland where the Forsaken had built up their bases of Power. Not much to show for those either.

[Guest Majsju]

RJ himself has a quite well put description of the situation:

 

The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don’t like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light. Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from…. Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

[havoc110]

Sounds like RJ is on the defensive addressing someone who expressed a concern similar to the one I have put forth.

 

He's trying to sell you on how much Dark has really accomplished, but in the end it will all be a hill of beans, because yes Rand will be at TG and yes, all he has to do is show up.

 

His analogies would be correct if you considered the Nazis minus the Holocaust, or the Soviet Block without the cold war. Because that's what he has, some bad weather and some political unrest. The AoL Forsaken and their crimes sound like Nazi Germany. The modern day Forsaken (the same crew, allegedly), more like bullies on an elementary school playground.

 

 

Lots of general, inconvenient badness, sure, whatever. But nothing to make someone take notice and say "Wow, now that's EVIL." or to put the final outcome of the series in doubt.

 

Sort of like the infamous GASP event. Or are you going to try and sell me the RJ koolaid on that too?

(edit: sorry CW, that's not you I'm responding to, it is GF and Majsju who are trying to convince me how good Dark is really doing)

 

If it was so clear that Dark was winning, RJ wouldn't have needed the above press release now would he?

 

And even if Dark is ahead on the strategic scale, the story is written 99% on the "tactical" level. And on that level, Light has been cruising along. Rand is the undefeated, undisputed heavyweight champion, even single handed. His posse is a group of OP heavyweights themselves. I don't see any threat to them between now and TG.

[Jonn]

I can't say I'd know Graendal's plans are succeeding' date=' but certainly it's too early to say for sure.

 

I think now Rand is getting distracted big time into Arad Doman, well the last place he needs to get to his side, but will he be stuck there while the Last Battle surprises him?

 

I don't think the Shadow needs, to win, to have openly Shadow nations yet, if such were possible even. They have lost in the climatic fights, but the climaxes may become beside the point if everything else falls for the Light. Like, even Shara has been put into turmoil, and the Amayar gone (Mesaana's activities, through Alviarin?)[/quote']

 

Wait a minute...how is Mesaana connected to the Amayar?

 

If asked about Graendal's grand scale' date=' I point to Taim and a large network of Darkfriends.[/quote']

 

What? Where's the evidence that Taim is taking orders from Graendal?

 

Taim appears to have a free hand from what I read. And frow what I can tell from the books, every Forsaken has a vast network of Darkfriends to work with. Heck, even simple high ranking Darkfriends have a vast network to call on.

Cyndane demonstrated in the Cleansing chapter, what happens when a darkfriend doubts the identity of one of the Chosen. A darkfriend takes orders from whoever when it comes to the Chosen. Point to Graendal all you want, she has no advantages over any other Forsaken.

 

Am I going nuts, or am I just not reading the same books here?

 

Havoc gives me guff about my obsession with Moiraine, but outright making things up contrary to what's been written...

 

Look, let's face the truth here. Graendal is in the back seat. She backs down to reincarnated versions of other Chosen. She's fooled herself into believing that it's just strategy, but the cold fact is, she doesn't have the gaul to step up and be a leader. She just sits back and falls deeper and deeper into the role of the tart that she has constructed for herself.

 

Not in a million years will she ever be naeblis.

 

This is why I can't see her as even lucky enough to pull of as difficult a hit as killing Asmodean. And if she has, she has nothing to show for it, which makes her beyond pathetic.

[Graendals favourite]

You need to read what is not written as well as what is. There is obvious proof for who killed Asmodean (Yes, none other than Graendal), but not necessarily for other things.

 

First of all before returning to the Tower in CoT, Alviarin had just spent a long time at Tremalkin at Mesaana's orders. Secondly, like the Borderlander army and Murandy would fit Demandred extremely well, Taim's emergence would fit Graendal extremely well, taking everything that has happened in the books. For the network, there are indications to Graendal, more than to many others.

 

Taking CoT, there we are very well given much that happens, but at the same time, we are given a few days at most for each of the characters. Important things happen those days, some other events are also referred to there, but mainly, the same kind of things happen on other days even though we don't read of it. So it is necessary to interpret what happens, why and how it makes sense. And who this and that should profit.

 

We may well read different books if we read them in a different enough way...

 

That we haven't seen Graendal's trumps, including killing Asmodean, is just an indication to how good she is. But we will see that in MoL..

[havoc110]

Wow GF, you might have just surpassed Jonn regarding delusions of their favorite character...

[Graendals favourite]

*bows* I have had practise. :D

[Jonn]

You need to read what is not written as well as what is. There is obvious proof for who killed Asmodean (Yes' date=' none other than Graendal), but not necessarily for other things.

 

First of all before returning to the Tower in CoT, Alviarin had just spent a long time at Tremalkin. Secondly, like the Borderlander army and Murandy would fit Demandred extremely well, Taim's emergence would fit Graendal extremely well, taking everything that has happened in the books. For the network, there are indications to Graendal, more than to many others.

 

Taking CoT, there we are very well given much that happens, but at the same time, we are given a few days at most for each of the characters. Important things happen those days, some other events are also referred to there, but mainly, the same kind of things happen on other days even though we don't read of it. So it is necessary interpret what happens, why and how it makes sense. And who this and that should profit.

 

We may well read different books if we read them in a different enough way...

 

That we haven't seen Graendal's trumps, including killing Asmodean, is just an indication to how good she is. But we will see that in MoL..[/quote']

 

What? You're telling me that RJ has been seeting up all the books just to reveal Graendal as this genius that she obviously isn't? Wow.

 

Alviarin didn't set the Amayar up. The End of a Illusions is a thousands of years old prophecy that had been around since the Amayar settled in Tremalking near the great Hand and Sphere. You're reaching.

 

There is nothing solid connecting Graendal to Taim. Nothing. At this point it's just your fancy.

 

All the Forsaken have access to the Darkfriend network.

 

I don't think it's that you're reading this stuff differently, maybe you're ignoring what is actually written and making up the gaps by yourself.

 

But hey, you have a strange fixation with Graendal, so whatever.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, perhaps Graendal isn't quite the culmination of the books..

 

Yea, well I definitely don't ignore what is written, but I think the gaps have to be filled to try to piece out what happens. Of course the reality may be different, but the pieces that fit the best should be tried. When Graendal fits the best I go with her. Graendal is along with Demandred and Ishamael the most mysterious of the Dark folks. Yes, I am unfaithful to her, too :).

 

So, the Amayar died because of the Prophecy, but I'm thinking maybe Mesaana made it certain the mass suicide was what they did in the end.

 

On Taim, no, nothing solid, only coincidence. Only now there's enough coincidence for me to place my bet on her. And that theory puts him under Moridin's control now.

 

The Darkfriend organisation, how is it organised? We don't know. I know Balthamel thought Graendal had excellent contacts. It has to be someone commanding them to put themselves in the positions needed. I expect there's more people like Noal. But yes nothing solid. Still, an educated guess is better than nothing, even if the education were not completely solid.

[Guest cwestervelt]

For Mesaana to have had anything to do with the Amayar mass suicide requires her to have knowledge that was completely unavailable to her.

 

Prior to Lanfear telling them shortly before the cleansing, Messaana, like the rest of the Foresaken had no clue that they keys to the Chodan Kal had been found. Other than the Sea Folk, there isn't anything to indicate anyone else had even heard of the Amayar or suspected they a prophesy concerning the End of Illusion. Based on the chapter "To Make an Anchor Weep", even the Sea Folk didn't know about the prophesy. Since the keys were lost, she had no reason to suspect the Chodan Kal would get used, or for what.

 

The actual presense of the Chodan Kal on Tremalking is a more likely explanation for when Messaana sent Alviarin there. It gave a starting point for searching for the access keys or any other way to tap the Chodan Kal.

 

Contributing the destruction of the Amayar to Mesaana also disregards the fact that the Amayar were spread throughout the Islands of the Sea Folk and not just on Tremalking. All of them committed suicide, not just those on Tremalking. It would also be quite an impressive bit of persuasion to get the entire population to accept a mass suicide interpretation of a prophesy in such a short period of time. The different groups of Amayar hadn't been doing any recent communication with eachother prior to the message going out.

[Jonn]

Well' date=' perhaps Graendal isn't quite the culmination of the books..

 

Yea, well I definitely don't ignore what is written, but I think the gaps have to be filled to try to piece out what happens. Of course the reality may be different, but the pieces that fit the best should be tried. When Graendal fits the best I go with her. Graendal is along with Demandred and Ishamael the most mysterious of the Dark folks. Yes, I am unfaithful to her, too :).

 

So, the Amayar died because of the Prophecy, but I'm thinking maybe Mesaana made it certain the mass suicide was what they did in the end.

 

On Taim, no, nothing solid, only coincidence. Only now there's enough coincidence for me to place my bet on her. And that theory puts him under Moridin's control now.

 

The Darkfriend organisation, how is it organised? We don't know. I know Balthamel thought Graendal had excellent contacts. It has to be someone commanding them to put themselves in the positions needed. I expect there's more people like Noal. But yes nothing solid. Still, an educated guess is better than nothing, even if the education were not completely solid.[/quote']

 

Graendal is mysterious? I think she reads literally like an open book. What about her don't we know? We know where she is, what she's doing there and how she got there. We know of most of her major plays from taking over Arad Doman and Compulsing the nobles, to her involvement with the Rahvin debacle. We know of her involvement in the Sammael episodes. We know exactly what she's trying to do in the West and that's currently being challenged by Ituralde on his own initiative.

She skulks around feeling undervalued and sorry for herself at every Frosaken meeting POV.

 

What's the mystery?

 

The only mystery about her is if she did kill Asmodean, why has it taken so long to come to that definitive conclusion. Ostensibly if she is the killer, it renders Asmodean's murder as rather mundane and not worth stringing us along for a decade. Not worth it to us at least. What worth RJ could find in it, now that's a true mystery.

 

We also know who set up the darkfriend network. His name was Ishamael, known in this Age as Ba'alzamon. He was there all along, as the guiding hand of all of the shadow's major schemes. He was the one Forsaken left behind that survived the Breaking, when all the other Forsaken faded away to nothing. His hand set the hounds loose on the three boys in the first novel. It was his network all along that tracked them from village to village town to city, always breathing down their necks, even in the dreams, man...

 

How can you even think that someone as bumbling as Graendal could eclipse Ishamael's contributions, even after he was dead for a while? He's back now. you really think he'd let anyone else take as much control over the darkfriend network as he had wrought for three thousand years?

 

Come on.

[Graendals favourite]

CW:

Hmm, yea, probably so. Though it isn't beyond reason Mesaana might have taken interest in the Amayar earlier. Of course the Cleansing's effect were nothing she could have foretold. It would not be impossible for her to learn of their customs. Don't they have some sort of a wise woman system? All it would take is have the 'Wise Woman conclave' decide and pronounce the end of Illusions is at hand, and all must commit suicide, also taking word of this to others of the people. This perhaps excluding Black channellers she could harvest? Perhaps this is stretching, but I think an interesting idea all the same. Would've been something useful done by her, while lounging at the Tower the rest of the time.

 

Jonn:

We know also that Graendal's dress accurately reveals her true feelings? Not so. What happens in Arad Doman, while useful for her and the Shadow, is a cover. Just like everyone knows her servants number not a one Darkfriend, not trusting them, but of course this covers that she employs a good network of them elsewhere. I'd say Ituralde is still doing what she wants him to do, but it is more a hobby to her, her true interests lie elsewhere.

 

Of course it was worth doing the way it was done, Asmo's murder. First of all, it fits her character perfectly, but mainly, the thing suggests many other things. It means she has had presence near Rand all along. Mat. Taim. And since it can be figured out, why spoil it by telling the answer?

 

Oh, yea, Ishi's the one who set it up. He isn't behind everything, though. Also, there's the practical issue. He can't coordinate them personally, all of them. He uses whom he uses, others use others. And yes, Ishy has advantage over Graendal, he is Nae'blis. He will probably die at some point from the True Power, but that is beside the point. However, the game is on, and looks to be between Ishamael, Graendal and Demandred.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Um.. Graendal, I think you need to recheck your facts.

 

"It means she has had presence near Rand all along. Mat. Taim. And since it can be figured out, why spoil it by telling the answer?"

 

First, Taim was never near Rand until well after Asmodean was dead.

 

Second, only in your mind is there anything that connects Taim to Graendal, or even hints at such a connection.

 

And how does Ituralde consolidating all Terabonner and Arad Domani forces under him help Graendal? He deliberately pulled the Seanchan after him. With the addition of Rands people in Arad Doman, the Seanchan are about to ride into the biggest slaughter they have suffered yet. They are about to realize they have nowhere to go, and will finally be in a position that forces them to seriously consider the truce that Rand wants.

[Graendals favourite]

To the first, perhaps, after all, it wasn't coincidence. Certainly Graendal's wouldn't send Taim to Rand with Asmo at his side.

 

If I can recall my bigger clues for the connection: Taim was captured at her doorstep, so to speak. Taim's abilities and slips. He would have had a Forsaken teacher, so Asmo's the choice, well he knew Graendal'd been in AD. Tam fits the charactiristic of someone who might be under Compulsion, I think. Then, Taim rescued Rand from Sevanna, fitting Graendal's probable wishes. Now wears Ishamael's colours. However, there are things I can't exlain. Could be there's connection, could be there isn't. If not, perhaps something else.

Edit: I don't see any big complications in it, though.

 

 

But he put the Taraboners back to Tarabon to harvest more chaos. The more wars the Light forces fight against each other, the less strength they have against the Shadow. The same in Arad Doman. If the Domani unite, it shouldn't be impossible to manage their leaders to be Darkfriends, or compelled to the Dark cause. But people who walk in the Light die all the time. Ready to feed the Trollocs, the remainder.

[Jonn]

To the first' date=' perhaps, after all, it wasn't coincidence. Certainly Graendal's wouldn't send Taim to Rand with Asmo at his side.

 

If I can recall my bigger clues for the connection: Taim was captured at her doorstep, so to speak. Taim's abilities and slips. He would have had a Forsaken teacher, so Asmo's the choice, well he knew Graendal'd been in AD. Tam fits the charactiristic of someone who might be under Compulsion, I think. Then, Taim rescued Rand from Sevanna, fitting Graendal's probable wishes. Now wears Ishamael's colours. However, there are things I can't exlain. Could be there's connection, could be there isn't. If not, perhaps something else.

Edit: I don't see any big complications in it, though.

 

 

But he put the Taraboners back to Tarabon to harvest more chaos. The more wars the Light forces fight against each other, the less strength they have against the Shadow. The same in Arad Doman. If the Domani unite, it shouldn't be impossible to manage their leaders to be Darkfriends, or compelled to the Dark cause. But people who walk in the Light die all the time. Ready to feed the Trollocs, the remainder.[/quote']

 

Wow. I've never seen someone's crediibility disintergrate so fast.

[Graendals favourite]

Wow. I've never seen someone's crediibility disintergrate so fast.

 

Well there's a line I don't get. This a contest of credibility? You already knew I disagreed on many points. Well, aside from Asmo, in the words of Zaida, I haven't been standing surety here. The theories speak for themselves, I merely outlined them since this is an Asmo thread. However, that the theories exist is as much a point as their content, for what they are worth. They are more than the opposition has. But a credibility contest isn't really what I'm after, be that from my mistress...

[havoc110]

Hey GF, how did you get the quote feature to work correctly?

[Graendals favourite]

Hey GF' date=' how did you get the quote feature to work correctly?[/quote']

 

Hey GF, how did you get the quote feature to work correctly?

 

I think the quotes without the name work normally. Just have to copy the text while replying. So without the ="havoc110" the quote should work.

[Guest cwestervelt]

That's what I've found too.

works but

doesn't. I suspect they added a patch to the phpBB that broke the feature.

[Jonn]

Well there's a line I don't get. This a contest of credibility? You already knew I disagreed on many points. Well, aside from Asmo, in the words of Zaida, I haven't been standing surety here. The theories speak for themselves, I merely outlined them since this is an Asmo thread. However, that the theories exist is as much a point as their content, for what they are worth. They are more than the opposition has. But a credibility contest isn't really what I'm after, be that from my mistress...

 

What I'm saying is that if those ideas are just an outline, you shouldn't mention it without elaboration and support from the text. It makes it hard to take what you're saying seriously.

 

The things you said were such a stretch, I didn't know where to begin. Hence, I just thought your credibility in the debate just dropped big, lacking any support from what has actually been written.

 

If you want me to take your idea seriously, you have to elaborate and provide support either through reference or logic.

[Graendals favourite]

I wasn't giving those theories as anything proven. I thought I expressed that through choice of words. I was giving them to point out there's room for a lot of reasonable theories, to explain events that have happened and to speculate what may come in MoL. Furthermore, that there is a need for unproven theories, since there doesn't seem to exist proof for those things. Reasonability from character's points of view is a very good tool to construct theories.

 

Of course it's possible to say that we e.g. don't know Taim's background or status, but stopping at that because nothing can be proven is too limiting. Saying Graendal killing Asmo is irrelevant to the story is in my opinion false, since to me it implies much, even if I don't know exactly what. It is one starting point for new theories. And of course to what happens in MoL, well I'm sure we have plenty of foreshadowings of the Dark surprises and betrayals, but I doubt RJ has written in proof for any of them. Thus there is little point in approaching those theories with need for proof; that something has been consistently indicated by coincindence if nothing else, and makes sense from people's points of view, is all that can be expected in my opinion.

 

So I've been elaborating, that there can be a lot of things out there, through examples. I expect the betrayals and other Dark surprises come at the worst moment, which would mean next book at the eve of TG, and thus haven't been seen yet. In a discussion on whether such things exist or not, that serves its own point, and you know the books, you will obviously think what you will of them. Better they are said, no? But I've been completely transparent in the arguments.

 

And also I have given my own opinion of events in AD, without proof it is thus clear there are several possible interpretations of how things are going there.