one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

There is no obstacle in Moiraine's way that can't be removed.

 

-we know she did not die (RJ used the word 'dissapear' at the time, not 'died' as they went through the doorframe... even in her letter to Rand she says 'I'll be gone and so is Lanfear'... she does not use the word 'dead'.

 

-we know the Foxes give you what you ask for but maybe not the way you expect ('to fight the shadow at the side of the Dragon'... Moiraine has often stated that that is her life's purpose... Asmo is the shadow at the side of the Dragon...)

 

-she knew that the Tower of G. was her possible way out of the place... I am sure I would have said I wanted to go there in her place...

 

-the foxes have shown they can place people back into the world and it can be away from the doorframe... I don't think they carried Mat through the doorframe... I believe they open gateways... though of a different nature than those the Aes Sedai/Ashaman make. My theory is that Asmo stepped through the door straight into the land of the foxes.. Moiraine never left it at all.

 

-she knew he was a forsaken... no breaking of her oath to kill him...

 

I honestly can't think of anything that eliminates her. All the pieces seem to fit together perfectly. Any new piece I pick up, with Moiraine as the killer, fits in smoothly. She makes sense from a story telling point of view... Graendal doesn't.

.

[Guest Majsju]

we know she did not die (RJ used the word 'dissapear' at the time, not 'died' as they went through the doorframe... even in her letter to Rand she says 'I'll be gone and so is Lanfear'... she does not use the word 'dead'.

 

We did not know whether or not she died at the time. It seemed very likely that RJ was "pulling a Gandalf", but the actual evidence was not introduced until later.

 

we know the Foxes give you what you ask for but maybe not the way you expect ('to fight the shadow at the side of the Dragon'... Moiraine has often stated that that is her life's purpose... Asmo is the shadow at the side of the Dragon...)

 

So instead of trying to take out one of the really nasty forsaken, like Demandred, or Sammael, who she'd been raving about for a long time that Rand must take out, she goes for the weakest one, the one that Rand has firmly under his thumb? If killing a forsaken had been an option for Moiraine, she would have taken the one she thought posed the greatest threat to Rand. Moiraine going for Asmodean would be like a farmer hunting a foxpup while he knows there's a huge wolf around the corner.

 

she knew that the Tower of G. was her possible way out of the place... I am sure I would have said I wanted to go there in her place.

 

The Tower of Ghenjei is not a "place" in the sense that you can go there, it's a doorway to finnland.

 

the foxes have shown they can place people back into the world and it can be away from the doorframe... I don't think they carried Mat through the doorframe... I believe they open gateways... though of a different nature than those the Aes Sedai/Ashaman make. My theory is that Asmo stepped through the door straight into the land of the foxes.. Moiraine never left it at all.

 

So Asmodean all of a sudden turned blind, since he didn't notice that instead of walking into a room or hallway that belongs to a palace, he's entering a very strange world?

 

As for Mat in Rhuidean, a gateway might have been a plausible theory if he had been found lying on the ground. He was however hanging from a tree. Opening a gateway close enough to the tree that you'd be able to hang him without stepping out would have sliced away quite a few bits and pieces from the tree.

 

I honestly can't think of anything that eliminates her. All the pieces seem to fit together perfectly. Any new piece I pick up, with Moiraine as the killer, fits in smoothly. She makes sense from a story telling point of view... Graendal doesn't.

 

Everything we know about Moiraine excludes her. I can't see anything that even slightly supports her as the killer.

As for the storytelling arguement, what we Know about the story is that Asmo had to be removed from the board somehow, he was a piece that had served its purpose, and would only have gotten in the way now. There is simply not a single thing that even remotely hints at the identity of the killer actually is important for the story.

[Jonn]

we know she did not die (RJ used the word 'dissapear' at the time, not 'died' as they went through the doorframe... even in her letter to Rand she says 'I'll be gone and so is Lanfear'... she does not use the word 'dead'.

 

We did not know whether or not she died at the time. It seemed very likely that RJ was "pulling a Gandalf", but the actual evidence was not introduced until later

 

It makes all the more sense to not reveal Moiraine as the killer, no? Her return is a major event. Gandalf's return was a major event. Gandalf returned to explain certain things to the heroes that he learned and to give revelation of things he endured to return. Moiraine is going to return with revelations of what she has endured to do so, and most likely will have learned something somehow in her captivity. To mark Moiraine as the killer right away, would kind of ruin the effect of her dramatic re-entrance into the storyline.

 

 

we know the Foxes give you what you ask for but maybe not the way you expect ('to fight the shadow at the side of the Dragon'... Moiraine has often stated that that is her life's purpose... Asmo is the shadow at the side of the Dragon...)

 

So instead of trying to take out one of the really nasty forsaken, like Demandred, or Sammael, who she'd been raving about for a long time that Rand must take out, she goes for the weakest one, the one that Rand has firmly under his thumb? If killing a forsaken had been an option for Moiraine, she would have taken the one she thought posed the greatest threat to Rand. Moiraine going for Asmodean would be like a farmer hunting a foxpup while he knows there's a huge wolf around the corner.

 

Moiraine isn't aware of any heirarchy amongst the Forsaken, who is weak and who is strongest...That is information privy only to a few. She knows he is one of the Forsaken and that he may flip-flop on Rand at any time given the direction of the wind. The danger Asmodean posed, even in his weakened state, cannot be overlooked. Moiraine said as much in her letter. She warned that he was still the man he always was. Why would she make mention of such a thing without a reason to act on it if she could? She didn't say, for Rand to kill him or not to trust him. What she said sounded a lot like a justification of some sorts. It makes sense that if Rand found out she killed him, she would have already given her reason before he even knew it was a reason.

 

she knew that the Tower of G. was her possible way out of the place... I am sure I would have said I wanted to go there in her place.

 

The Tower of Ghenjei is not a "place" in the sense that you can go there, it's a doorway to finnland.

 

A doorway is actually a place. You can go to a doorway, into it, through it and around it. Most doorways are exits as well as entrances.

 

the foxes have shown they can place people back into the world and it can be away from the doorframe... I don't think they carried Mat through the doorframe... I believe they open gateways... though of a different nature than those the Aes Sedai/Ashaman make. My theory is that Asmo stepped through the door straight into the land of the foxes.. Moiraine never left it at all.

 

So Asmodean all of a sudden turned blind, since he didn't notice that instead of walking into a room or hallway that belongs to a palace, he's entering a very strange world?

 

He didn't go into the room did he? He opened the doorway stopped and was killed.

 

As for Mat in Rhuidean, a gateway might have been a plausible theory if he had been found lying on the ground. He was however hanging from a tree. Opening a gateway close enough to the tree that you'd be able to hang him without stepping out would have sliced away quite a few bits and pieces from the tree.

 

How did he get on that tree? The Finn aren't supposed to be able to effect the outside world. This scenario with Mat hanging on Avendesora by a rope tied to a spear is a direct contradiction to what RJ has said about the Finn.

Besides that, a gateway needn't operate the same way when you're dealing with a strange race of beings like the Finns. For all we know they can phase in and out like Ishamael used to do as Baalzamon, or as Lews Therin seemed to do in the prologue to Eye of the World. The myrdraal have a form of teleportation that's completely foreign to the way it's done using the Power.

See, there are examples all around of how things can be accomplished outside of the norm.

 

I honestly can't think of anything that eliminates her. All the pieces seem to fit together perfectly. Any new piece I pick up, with Moiraine as the killer, fits in smoothly. She makes sense from a story telling point of view... Graendal doesn't.

 

Everything we know about Moiraine excludes her. I can't see anything that even slightly supports her as the killer.

As for the storytelling arguement, what we Know about the story is that Asmo had to be removed from the board somehow, he was a piece that had served its purpose, and would only have gotten in the way now. There is simply not a single thing that even remotely hints at the identity of the killer actually is important for the story.

 

You don't remove a piece from the board unless it has served a purpose or without it meaning something. The move to eliminate a piece has to make sense as well, as much sense as the result. You can't just remove a piece without someone seeing how and why it was played that way. That doesn't make sense. It's like reaching over the board and just knockng over one of your opponent's backrow pieces as an opening move, without explaining.

 

As for eliminating Moiraine. Her letter to Rand. Her letter to Thom. Her trips through the doorway in Tear and through the rings of Rhuidean. As much as we know aboue Moiraine, there is a whole lot we don't know. For as much mystery as there is surrounding her character, we as the audience can postulate any number of possibile directions for a wild card like Moiraine to go in for the final act. for her to bring revelation, to solve one of the great mysteries in modern fantasy literature...It would be all too fitting coming from the most compelling character I've read in my younger days.

[Guest Majsju]

It makes all the more sense to not reveal Moiraine as the killer, no? Her return is a major event. Gandalf's return was a major event. Gandalf returned to explain certain things to the heroes that he learned and to give revelation of things he endured to return. Moiraine is going to return with revelations of what she has endured to do so, and most likely will have learned something somehow in her captivity. To mark Moiraine as the killer right away, would kind of ruin the effect of her dramatic re-entrance into the storyline.

 

To have Moiraine as the killer would ruin the dramatic effect of her return in AMOL. The importance of Moiraine is what she will do, not what she has done.

We already know that Moiraine will return, we have known that for a long time. Revealing her as the killer would only mean that we gained the knowledge that she was allowed to make her wishes. Not a very big deal, as we would then have that knowledge to base speculations on what the other two wishes might be.

 

Moiraine isn't aware of any heirarchy amongst the Forsaken, who is weak and who is strongest...That is information privy only to a few. She knows he is one of the Forsaken and that he may flip-flop on Rand at any time given the direction of the wind. The danger Asmodean posed, even in his weakened state, cannot be overlooked. Moiraine said as much in her letter. She warned that he was still the man he always was. Why would she make mention of such a thing without a reason to act on it if she could? She didn't say, for Rand to kill him or not to trust him. What she said sounded a lot like a justification of some sorts. It makes sense that if Rand found out she killed him, she would have already given her reason before he even knew it was a reason.

 

She doesn't know the exact hierarchy, but she does know a few things, like Asmo being one of, if not the weakest of the forsaken. And she can't possibly think that Rand is so stupid that he trusts Asmo completely, she must expect him to be careful.

Moiraines #1 target would very likely have been Sammael, considering how much effort she put in trying to convince Rand to attack him. Or take the opportunity to take out someone that they don't have a clue where he or she is, like Demandred, Semirhage...

 

A doorway is actually a place. You can go to a doorway, into it, through it and around it. Most doorways are exits as well as entrances.

 

A place you can go to, yes. A place you can stay in? Not necessarily. We don't know the nature of the ToG, it might very well be an empty shell, and if you enter it properly you will immidiatly find yourself inside finnland.

 

He didn't go into the room did he? He opened the doorway stopped and was killed.

 

He opened the door, and took one step, so he might have been inside. But if he opened the door, and saw an entirely different world, I think his first word would be something other than "You".

 

How did he get on that tree? The Finn aren't supposed to be able to effect the outside world. This scenario with Mat hanging on Avendesora by a rope tied to a spear is a direct contradiction to what RJ has said about the Finn.

 

No it's not. Do they affect the world by hanging Mat there? Not really. Mat was strangled in their world, hanging him from the tree affects the world just as much as simply tossing him out.

RJ has said that they can't affect our world, not that they can't enter it.

 

Besides that, a gateway needn't operate the same way when you're dealing with a strange race of beings like the Finns. For all we know they can phase in and out like Ishamael used to do as Baalzamon, or as Lews Therin seemed to do in the prologue to Eye of the World. The myrdraal have a form of teleportation that's completely foreign to the way it's done using the Power.

See, there are examples all around of how things can be accomplished outside of the norm.

 

The myrdraal's teleportation has a logical explanation, as they can use shadows for travelling, something that has been well established. Ishy and Moridin might have been something that RJ later decided to change, since we haven't seen it used since. We have nothing established about the finns eventual ability to teleport, not even a hint. Just wild speculation, without any basis in the text.

 

You don't remove a piece from the board unless it has served a purpose or without it meaning something. The move to eliminate a piece has to make sense as well, as much sense as the result. You can't just remove a piece without someone seeing how and why it was played that way. That doesn't make sense. It's like reaching over the board and just knockng over one of your opponent's backrow pieces as an opening move, without explaining.

 

Asmo had served his purpose. He stood in the way for the introduction of Taim to the storyline, you can not have to many questionable characters around. As for making sense, at the time of the murder every living forsaken made sense, some more than others. RJs comment about it being possible to solve, and later clues has eliminated most of them.

 

Moiraine does not make sense. You must invent the ability for the finns to teleport someone from our world to their, otherwise she would just have walked away. That's like playing chess with someone who all of a sudden decides that a Bishop can move as a Queen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While remotely conceivable, the timing and circumstances around Moiraine's dissapearance into the world of the Eelfinn make it very unlikely that she was the executioner. Given that Robert Jordan said it should be "intuitively obvious", Graendal has the stronger case by far. Easily explained motive, means, and opportunity. Any explanation that permits Moiraine to be there is convoluted, not intuitively obvious. Even Slayer has a better case than Moiraine, and there are lots of holes in his.

[Jonn]

While remotely conceivable' date=' the timing and circumstances around Moiraine's dissapearance into the world of the Eelfinn make it very unlikely that she was the executioner. Given that Robert Jordan said it should be "intuitively obvious", Graendal has the stronger case by far. Easily explained motive, means, and opportunity. Any explanation that permits Moiraine to be there is convoluted, not intuitively obvious. Even Slayer has a better case than Moiraine, and there are lots of holes in his.[/quote']

 

Means and opportunity for Graendal...easily explained? Why don't you explain to me these things nice and easy. Everything connecting her is circumstantial and it's not obvious that her involvment is any more distinct than any other surviving Forsaken's.

 

She never mentions her involvement in Asmodean's fate. No one else talks about it except to wonder about it.

 

Everything about her screams red herring.

 

The only real conceivable idea I can come up with is that the explanation lies with someone who isn't there to explain what had happened.

 

That's Moiraine.

[Guest Egwene]

Majsju: We did not know whether or not she died at the time. It seemed very likely that RJ was "pulling a Gandalf", but the actual evidence was not introduced until later.

 

If I had said we did not know that she had died? There was as much circumstantial evidence to indicate that she hadn't, as that she had. In my eyes the 'she is not dead' is far stronger. Her letter to Rand was carefully worded. It is not a good bye... to disregard her choosing the word 'gone' instead of 'dead' is to disregard everything we know about Aes Sedai. She could not use that word as she knew it would be a lie. Circumstantial evidence that was there at the time.

 

The only thing to support a 'she died thought' is the Bond with Lan. However the circumstances under which it broke, were so vastly different from any other known severing of Bond situation that we could not take that as being proof. We also knew that Moiraine had already prepared the way for the Bond to pass on... *to win in Snakes and Foxes you have to break the rules*... Moiraine broke them even as she entered their world in preperation for what was coming. All the information needed as to how and why was there at the time.

 

Majsju:So instead of trying to take out one of the really nasty forsaken, like Demandred, or Sammael, who she'd been raving about for a long time that Rand must take out, she goes for the weakest one, the one that Rand has firmly under his thumb? If killing a forsaken had been an option for Moiraine, she would have taken the one she thought posed the greatest threat to Rand. Moiraine going for Asmodean would be like a farmer hunting a foxpup while he knows there's a huge wolf around the corner.

 

She was not trying to take out Asmodean. My whole point was that Moiraine made her usual GENERAL statement of 'wanting to fight the shadow at the side of the Dragon'. That is the DO, the Shadow in general. However, the foxes interpretatin was to take it literally. (Same way a similar thing happened to Mat.)

 

Majsju: The Tower of Ghenjei is not a "place" in the sense that you can go there, it's a doorway to finnland.

 

It does not matter what the Tower is... Moiraine knew how a possible rescue would happen. Ergo she knew where she would have to be in the land of the foxes in order for the rescue to happen. I say she certainly demanded to be put in exactly that location, which I assume to be the Tower of G. The important thing is she would have made a demand that would eventually save her.

 

Majsju:So Asmodean all of a sudden turned blind, since he didn't notice that instead of walking into a room or hallway that belongs to a palace, he's entering a very strange world?

 

As for Mat in Rhuidean, a gateway might have been a plausible theory if he had been found lying on the ground. He was however hanging from a tree. Opening a gateway close enough to the tree that you'd be able to hang him without stepping out would have sliced away quite a few bits and pieces from the tree.

 

The passage made it very clear that he was miles away in thought. He did not know what to expect behind the door. Whatever he found he reacted to it no more than he reacted to seeing someone about to kill him. Nothing to do with turning blind... he didn't react in time... to anything. The following is another possible indicator for this scenario:

 

Cybertrolloc from page 95:there's a cryptic comment from Jordan at least year's DragonCon (that I can't find a link for at the moment, know it was on the hideous WoTMania forums).

It goes something like:

Q: Something about why the Dark One hasn't ressed Asmo.

Jordan: The DO can't res Asmo, the reason being a combination of where and how he died. I won't elaborate further since that would make the killer too obvious...

 

Your next point:

 

Majsju:As for Mat in Rhuidean, a gateway might have been a plausible theory if he had been found lying on the ground. He was however hanging from a tree. Opening a gateway close enough to the tree that you'd be able to hang him without stepping out would have sliced away quite a few bits and pieces from the tree.

 

So a gateway as we know it, isn't a plausible solution. Even more evidence that the Foxes can locate their world in proximity to Randland in a way that is different and allows for them to hang a 'guest' off a tree with not trace left. Good point in favour of my theory as far as I can see.

 

Majsju:Everything we know about Moiraine excludes her. I can't see anything that even slightly supports her as the killer.

As for the storytelling arguement, what we Know about the story is that Asmo had to be removed from the board somehow, he was a piece that had served its purpose, and would only have gotten in the way now. There is simply not a single thing that even remotely hints at the identity of the killer actually is important for the story.

 

Maj... I can not see a single point that I haven't given a pausible answer to. All the conclusions I drew, are based on what we know from the books. All I did was take what we know about the Foxes, applied it to Moiraine's situation and looked at what might have happened. No one sofar has given a single argument that makes it impossible for Moiraine to have been the killer.

 

Asmodean was one of the Forsaken. His death is definately a considered part of the story. The storytelling argument is my own gut feeling based on how I would have used the story resources available to me. Graendal makes for...a dead end... Moiraine makes for weaves within weaves.

.

[Musenge]

RJ said the killer was obvious. I don't see how a presumed dead Moiraine is an "obvious" killer. Besides given she knew about his role for a long time I see no motive. Asmodean wasn't a threat to Moiraine and he didn't upset her plans or threaten her goals.

 

Graendal on the other hand had every reason to kill him since we'd already seen the chosen refer to him as a traitor in that book.

 

It might not be as big a mystery as saying Moiraine but it makes far more sense to me anyway. Moiraine's "death" in that book was the big gasp moment and Asmodean's death was a side show to it.

 

I don't think RJ intended it to be a mystery since he said it was obvious.

 

How come nobody asks who killed Herid Fel?

[Guest Majsju]

If I had said we did not know that she had died? There was as much circumstantial evidence to indicate that she hadn't, as that she had. In my eyes the 'she is not dead' is far stronger. Her letter to Rand was carefully worded. It is not a good bye... to disregard her choosing the word 'gone' instead of 'dead' is to disregard everything we know about Aes Sedai. She could not use that word as she knew it would be a lie. Circumstantial evidence that was there at the time.

 

Moiraine knew one thing you seem to have forgotten, she saw several possibilities in Rhuidean. What would she write if she had seen two scenarios where she dies, and one scenario where she lives, "I might be dead, but I'm definitly gone"?

 

She was not trying to take out Asmodean. My whole point was that Moiraine made her usual GENERAL statement of 'wanting to fight the shadow at the side of the Dragon'. That is the DO, the Shadow in general. However, the foxes interpretatin was to take it literally. (Same way a similar thing happened to Mat.)

 

Oh come on, Moiraine is one of the smartest characters in the series, would she all of a sudden become an idiot? If she knows what the Eelfinn does, she should also know that they have a tendency of interpreting the wishes in ways not always expected. She would definitly not make a wish that is so open for interpretation.

Besides, Asmo's connection to the DO does not exist anymore at this point. He's a nasty little bugger for sure, but not "the shadow".

 

It does not matter what the Tower is... Moiraine knew how a possible rescue would happen. Ergo she knew where she would have to be in the land of the foxes in order for the rescue to happen. I say she certainly demanded to be put in exactly that location, which I assume to be the Tower of G. The important thing is she would have made a demand that would eventually save her.

 

I highly doubt she was in a position to negotiate the whereabouts of her imprisonment, just convincing them to not kill her is quite an achievment in itself. However, this has nothing to do with whether or not she could have killed Asmo.

 

The passage made it very clear that he was miles away in thought. He did not know what to expect behind the door. Whatever he found he reacted to it no more than he reacted to seeing someone about to kill him. Nothing to do with turning blind... he didn't react in time... to anything. The following is another possible indicator for this scenario:

 

The pasage makes it very clear that he is looking for something specific, he was not so lost in his thought that he did not notice where he was going. Seeing an entirely different world behind the door he just opened would have shocked him back to reality in the blink of an eye.

 

So a gateway as we know it, isn't a plausible solution. Even more evidence that the Foxes can locate their world in proximity to Randland in a way that is different and allows for them to hang a 'guest' off a tree with not trace left. Good point in favour of my theory as far as I can see.

 

Evidence? Hardly. Look for the most simple explanation: the finns can leave through the doorway for a short time.

 

Maj... I can not see a single point that I haven't given a pausible answer to. All the conclusions I drew, are based on what we know from the books

 

No, your conclusions are based on your interpretations from the books, interpretations based on your wish for Moiraine to be the killer.

We know that Moiraine didn't die, so what? There were several people alive at that point that wanted Asmo dead far stronger than Moiraine.

We know that Moiraine is a prisoner with the Eelfinn. So, she wasted a wish to kill off a weakened forsaken instead of going after one of the more dnagerous ones? Instead of wishing herself out, so she could really be at Rand's side? But no, she accepts being a prisoner, even with her knowledge that there is a good chance of both her and the man she loves dying in the attempt to escape. Well, Moiraine being a coldhearted idiot is certainly a change...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Did people honestly believe Moiraine was dead? I know I never did for a moment. My immediate reaction to her falling through the doorway was that Moiraine being dead just didn't work. When Asmodean died, my reaction was that RJ had just confirmed Moiraine to be alive. It was obvious at an intuitive level.

[Guest Majsju]

Did people honestly believe Moiraine was dead? I know I never did for a moment. My immediate reaction to her falling through the doorway was that Moiraine being dead just didn't work. When Asmodean died, my reaction was that RJ had just confirmed Moiraine to be alive. It was obvious at an intuitive level.

 

My first thought was the obvious reference to Gandalf. And just as Gandalf, I expected her to stay "dead" offscreen until it's time to return to move things forward. A little random drop-by to kill Asmo would totally ruin the impact of that return.

[Guest Egwene]

Majsju, same as CW, for me it was intuitively obvious that Moiraine was not dead. As you said in your post, I am basing things on my interpretation of the book. I guess the question is what RJ's intuition is like compared to you and me.

 

As for Moiraines wishes... who says she knew any more than Mat. However, I think it is safe to say it would have taken her only one instance of 'Done' to figure out the difference between the snakes and the foxes.

 

You say again she wasted a wish on Asmo. Please, in my scenario, Moiraine has no aspiration to kill Asmo, it is the Foxes interpretation which has that consequence.

 

However, as you said, Moiraine saw several versions of the future. She may have been shown that it was neccessary to kill Asmo at this stage. Also she makes it clear in her letters that she must be seen to be dead... how could she wish herself out?

 

If Moiraine is now risking Thom and Mat, it must be because the visions have shown her that her rescue has consequences for the battle against the Shadow She is willing to pay the prize for the possible gain.

 

I never 'wished' Moiraine to be the killer... in fact, I was a Lanfear supporter in the beginning... but the more I read the books, the more I am convinced it was Moiraine.

 

Why should her having killed Asmo ruin the impact of her return? I don't see the connection at all there. Asmo or not, she has re-appeared care of her letter to Thom already. Whatever happened in the interim... it will come out eventually... but it is hardly the first thing she'll talk about, is it? We might get a POoV of hers at some stage and that may be it.

.

[Guest Majsju]

As for Moiraines wishes... who says she knew any more than Mat. However, I think it is safe to say it would have taken her only one instance of 'Done' to figure out the difference between the snakes and the foxes.

 

Because she has obviously a far greater knowledge of the Aelfinn than Mat. And if she is to make a wish, she must already have some knowledge about the Eelfinn, since Mat has not told her what they do. So unless she did a trial&error like Mat, she must either have had some knowledge about the Eelfinn, or not have been able to make any wishes at all.

 

You say again she wasted a wish on Asmo. Please, in my scenario, Moiraine has no aspiration to kill Asmo, it is the Foxes interpretation which has that consequence.

 

So, in your interpretation Moiraine is a coldhearted idiot. Sorry, don't buy that.

 

However, as you said, Moiraine saw several versions of the future. She may have been shown that it was neccessary to kill Asmo at this stage. Also she makes it clear in her letters that she must be seen to be dead... how could she wish herself out?

 

She does what now? The one thing she says flat out is that Thom is not under any circumstances allowed to tell Mat about the letter until Mat asks. She indirectly says that Rand and Lan must believe she is dead, for obvious reasons, those two would very likely run off trying to rescue her. That's why she must be believed to be dead, to give the rescue a chance of success, and to not have people close to her killed, especially not Rand. Had she wished herself out, that reason would have been nullified.

 

Whatever happened in the interim... it will come out eventually... but it is hardly the first thing she'll talk about, is it? We might get a POoV of hers at some stage and that may be it.

 

Actually, what happened to Asmo is a very important knowledge for rand to have. He still thinks Asmo ran away, he must consider that Asmo wants to redeem himself in the eyes of the DO by somehow acting against Rand. This is also something Moiraine knows, and she wouldn't have needed to tell anyone that she was alive and the one who killed him, just leave the corpse so Rand can find it and learn what happened. That the corpse is gone points at someone who wants Rand to believe Asmo is alive and kicking and plotting against him, something far more likely one of his enemies would be interested in.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry this took me so long Jonn

 

 

For Graendal:

 

Means: She can channel with a great deal of skill, including hiding her ability and inverting weaves, and given Asmodean's shield, she could overwhelm him in a moment.

 

Opportunity: Because of the Rahvin/Lanfear/Graendal/Sammael cabal, she had access to Caemlyn, and a reason to be there that morning, as the cabal anticipated an attack on Sammael, which Rahvin and Graendal were to meet linked. Once the attack occurred, she knew that Asmodean could be with al'Thor. It would not have taken long to confirm this. She would have had little difficulty surviving the attack while staying in Caemlyn, since she can conceal her ability to channel, and Rand wasn't looking for her anyway. Actually, since she can invert her weaves, she could have left wards in Caemlyn to let her know if it was attacked even if she was in Arad Doman.

 

And just for kicks ...

Motive: She had reason to want to remove al'Thor's teacher. She did not want him to gain any more skill than he already had. And if she DID kill him, she had reason to remove the evidence, so as to eliminate even the small possibility of al'Thor coming after her (if Rand believes Asmodean just left, which is clearly the case, he won't be coming after anyone on his account.) Asmodean's betrayal of the Shadow just gives her an excuse to remove someone who is making al'Thor more dangerous. Since she knew about his shield from Lanfear, she would not fear a direct confrontation.

[demeroe]

I really have no idea who killed Asmodean, and have read many of the theories. What I do find interesting is the last description of Asmodean as he entered the room.

"One step, and he stopped, blood draining from his face. “You? No!†The word still hung in the air when death took him"

The description of the blood draining from his face makes it sound as if he is really scared. Not so much suprised or puzzled, but s**t scared. :shock:

 

While Egwene's recent arguments in favour of Moraine being the killer make me consider this, I just don't think she would get this kind of reaction from Asmodean.

However, I am not sure how much contact Asmodean had had with Graendal recently, would he recognise her straight away? (I maybe totally out on this, but I cannot really grasp how much interaction the Forsaken have had with each other since they got free).

With his recent musings on Lanfear as he is walking down the corridor, I think she (lanfear) would be the person he would be most horrified to see, especially as he thinks she is now dead.

However there are loads of arguments against Lanfear, so I am still no closer to making up my mind. :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Asmodean would certainly recognize Graendal if she were not currently disguised, they worked for the Shadow for years, perhaps decades in the War of the Power, and they were both sealed deep enough to sleep dreamlessly, so when they emerged, it was as if no time had passed subjectively. All his memories are fresh.

[Jonn]

It makes all the more sense to not reveal Moiraine as the killer, no?.

 

To have Moiraine as the killer would ruin the dramatic effect of her return in AMOL. The importance of Moiraine is what she will do, not what she has done.

 

How do you figure that? She had been gone for quite a while now. The readers will naturally be hungry for knowledge of what led her to come to her path and what occurred along the way.

 

This isn't a one without the other scenario. She will serve a role in the Last Battle and give us readers revelations of what happened in her captivity.

 

To make the Gandalf comparison, this is perfectly in tune with the dramatic model. That has been her character from the beginning. She does lots of wicked cool stuff and she announces information that we would otherwise not know.

 

Example: She kills darkhounds and announces that Sammael rules in Illian.

 

Must we question how she learned to use balefire and how she can come to such a conclusion? No, because it all happened as it was written.

 

Another example is how she figured out Be'lal, in particular, was running Tear. Later she turns around and kills him with balefire.

 

How many examples do you need to figure out that Moiraine is not only mysterious, but very dangerous and more than capable of anything you can imagine?

 

We already know that Moiraine will return, we have known that for a long time. Revealing her as the killer would only mean that we gained the knowledge that she was allowed to make her wishes. Not a very big deal, as we would then have that knowledge to base speculations on what the other two wishes might be.

 

It's not a big deal? Why is she removed from the story? Why are we given that whole scene with Mat in the Foxlands? It's called foreshadowing, isn't it?

 

Why set the audience up with the knowledge of what takes place in Finnland, and have it not factor in Moiraine's return even as she has been trapped in Finnland? She'll have to explain what happened there to some extent right? We know that you get three requests and that you must bargain for you very life. It's rather dubious to omit those details...Almost as dubious as omitting say...who killed Asmodean.

 

Moiraine isn't aware of any heirarchy amongst the Forsaken, who is weak and who is strongest...That is information privy only to a few. She knows he is one of the Forsaken and that he may flip-flop on Rand at any time given the direction of the wind. The danger Asmodean posed, even in his weakened state, cannot be overlooked. Moiraine said as much in her letter. She warned that he was still the man he always was. Why would she make mention of such a thing without a reason to act on it if she could? She didn't say, for Rand to kill him or not to trust him. What she said sounded a lot like a justification of some sorts. It makes sense that if Rand found out she killed him, she would have already given her reason before he even knew it was a reason.

 

She doesn't know the exact hierarchy, but she does know a few things, like Asmo being one of, if not the weakest of the forsaken.

 

I'm sorry...where in the books is it said that she knows Asmodean is the weakest of the Forsaken? And how does that really apply? It's like saying, "that person is swimming in the water with the least dangerous Great White shark."

 

And she can't possibly think that Rand is so stupid that he trusts Asmo completely, she must expect him to be careful.

Moiraines #1 target would very likely have been Sammael, considering how much effort she put in trying to convince Rand to attack him. Or take the opportunity to take out someone that they don't have a clue where he or she is, like Demandred, Semirhage...

 

It's simple. She knows where Asmodean is. He's nearby Rand. He won't be expecting her to kill him, and she doesn't want him around Rand period. Let's get off that line right away that she was complicit with Rand keeping a pet Forsaken. Absolutely not. It's one of the biggest misconceptions and misreads that most people take from her letter to Rand. I can go on for hours about this.

 

Anyhow...she knows pretty much exactly where to find Asmodean. Everyone else is either hidden (Demandred, Mesaana) or too difficult to approach and attack, like Sammael.

 

How foolish would it be of her to just ask to get a shot at Sammael in his own fortress with him on the alert?

 

A doorway is actually a place. You can go to a doorway, into it, through it and around it. Most doorways are exits as well as entrances.

 

A place you can go to, yes. A place you can stay in? Not necessarily. We don't know the nature of the ToG, it might very well be an empty shell, and if you enter it properly you will immidiatly find yourself inside finnland.

 

Or, it can be a doorway as you yourself implied...A doorway you can go out of as well as in to. You can stand by a doorway even when it's been locked on your side, right?

 

This isn't a hard concept.

 

He didn't go into the room did he? He opened the doorway stopped and was killed.

 

He opened the door, and took one step, so he might have been inside. But if he opened the door, and saw an entirely different world, I think his first word would be something other than "You".

 

In a dark hallway, in a palace you are rather unfamiliar with, how is there a distinction between that hallway and a darkly lit place beyond a door you opened?

 

Besides that; If there is a person standing on the other side of that doorway, wouldn't you be rather preoccupied with their presence and that fact that they're about to kill you? I wouldn't be that interested in the decor seeing as one of the last people I wanted to or expected to see was on the other side of the doorway I just opened.

 

How did he get on that tree? The Finn aren't supposed to be able to effect the outside world. This scenario with Mat hanging on Avendesora by a rope tied to a spear is a direct contradiction to what RJ has said about the Finn.

 

No it's not. Do they affect the world by hanging Mat there? Not really. Mat was strangled in their world, hanging him from the tree affects the world just as much as simply tossing him out.

RJ has said that they can't affect our world, not that they can't enter it.

 

Are we splitting hairs here now?

 

RJ's words were that they cannot effect the outside world in any way. Them stepping outside of their world and placing Mat in a tree with a rope around his neck is pretty much the opposite of that statement.

 

The reason I mention it in the first place is to point out that RJ's description of what can be done by the Finns is rather cryptic. Given what we have seen in the actual books, they are capable of much more than his statement would allow us to think.

 

The Finn are pretty much like Genies from Aladdin’s lamp. They are bound by what is specified in the bargain or contract. They will do so as they see is fitting to accomplish what is asked for. All of this is in the books for us to see. It requires no addendum from RJ or anyone.

 

Besides that, a gateway needn't operate the same way when you're dealing with a strange race of beings like the Finns. For all we know they can phase in and out like Ishamael used to do as Baalzamon, or as Lews Therin seemed to do in the prologue to Eye of the World. The myrdraal have a form of teleportation that's completely foreign to the way it's done using the Power.

See, there are examples all around of how things can be accomplished outside of the norm.

 

The myrdraal's teleportation has a logical explanation, as they can use shadows for travelling, something that has been well established. Ishy and Moridin might have been something that RJ later decided to change, since we haven't seen it used since.

 

Your explanation is rather too convenient, with no backup evidence to support it. It's besides the point anyhow. The point was that there are different types of teleportation which myrdraal are an example of. There's skimming. Men Travel differently from women. You can travel using Tel Aran Rhiod. There's portal stones. There are the Ways...Several example of people transporting from one place to another in different ways. What's to stop one from imagining that the Finn have their own methods? Nothing. they already have demonstrated the use of two types of doorways and those are mostly for the outsiders to access them. the Tower of Ghengei and the Redstone doorways. They are both different ways to get to Finnland. How can you rule out that the Finns don't have their own way into the human world?

 

We have nothing established about the finns eventual ability to teleport, not even a hint. Just wild speculation, without any basis in the text.

 

It's not wild speculation at all. It's rather logical. There is nothing in the books that says they cannot travel about of their own volition. If there is no given bar to them doing so, then it is logical to assume that there either is no bar to them or that there are ways for them to do so through parameters that haven't been explained to us.

 

You don't remove a piece from the board unless it has served a purpose or without it meaning something. The move to eliminate a piece has to make sense as well, as much sense as the result. You can't just remove a piece without someone seeing how and why it was played that way. That doesn't make sense. It's like reaching over the board and just knockng over one of your opponent's backrow pieces as an opening move, without explaining.

 

Asmo had served his purpose. He stood in the way for the introduction of Taim to the storyline, you can not have to many questionable characters around. As for making sense, at the time of the murder every living forsaken made sense, some more than others. RJs comment about it being possible to solve, and later clues has eliminated most of them.

 

How clumsy to think that the audience is going to read Asmodean's death so pragmatically. "He served his purpose..."

It's kind of nauseating when you think about it. Oh, I'm going to introduce this character for a while until I can come up with someone who can replace him and then I'm not going to explain when he's been given the axe, how he came his fate exactly.

Not explaining it requires calculation. there's a calculation that no one cares about the details involved in who killed him and how it affected the storyline afterwards.

 

You kidding me? Robert Jordan, not interested in details?

 

Take a moment to digest how stupid that sounds.

 

RJ said it was possible to solve without his clues. So that makes it a paradox. He said you can figure it out as obvious, and then later says that there are clues to help you later…That doesn’t make sense. If it’s obvious you don’t need any clues.

 

That makes it a mystery. Treat it as such and don't fool yourselves into thinking that Graendal is somehow obvious. She wasn't obvious EVER. To get to her as a conclusion you almost have to do trigonometry and take an ethics and philosphy course.

 

Moiraine does not make sense. You must invent the ability for the finns to teleport someone from our world to their, otherwise she would just have walked away. That's like playing chess with someone who all of a sudden decides that a Bishop can move as a Queen.

 

Well, if you want to get into chess…a common pawn can become a queen if you are clever.

 

There is no invention involved with the Finns moving people in and out of their realm. We already know two ways to get there. It’s obvious to me that those ways are meant to make it so that humans can get to them. They’ve otherwise showed no limitation to their abilities in getting into the human world, nor have they demonstrated a desire to leave their realm except on request.

 

Moiraine had to know that there was a price to come for everything she asked for, so chances are that she avoided bartering for her release as it would generally would have either led to her death or some kind of piece of her being taken from her. As it stands now, she is imprisoned. Logic says that she made this decision for a reason.

 

Moiraine makes a lot of sense. Her actions throughout the novels have set her up as one who would do whatever it takes to keep Rand out of the hands of the Forsaken. By killing Asmodean she pretty would have accomplished that. She has killed Forsaken before, and she disappeared through the doorway in a bid to kill Lanfear. She succeeded there as well, although indirectly.

 

In the Eye of the World she said that she would see any of the Two Rivers folk dead before she let the Shadow have them. As she knows she cannot kill Rand, she did the next best thing. She saw herself dead before she would let Asmodean stay at Rand’s side.

 

That makes more sense to me than Graendal just randomly deciding to kill Asmodean out of nowhere, and for nothing. That’s what she gained out of Asmodean’s death after all. Nothing.

[Guest Majsju]

How many examples do you need to figure out that Moiraine is not only mysterious, but very dangerous and more than capable of anything you can imagine?

 

We are not talking about Moiraines abilities here. The abilities that are required for Moiraine to even be possible as the killer are for the Eelfinn to know the exact location of a person at any given time, and the ability for them to teleport someone to that location, and then teleport them back. It's trying to prove something backwards, "Moiraine did it, and therefore they must have these abilities".

 

If RJ had not said that we should be able to figure it out at the time it happened, I would have accepted moiraine as a cnadidate, because then there would be room for unknown abilities. But there is no such room. In order to figure something out, you can not use guesses like this as evidence, it doesn't work. It would be similar to someone being killed by channeling, and several books later it's revealed that it was perrin, who's been able to channel all the time, he just hasn't showed it.

 

It's not a big deal? Why is she removed from the story? Why are we given that whole scene with Mat in the Foxlands? It's called foreshadowing, isn't it?

 

Why set the audience up with the knowledge of what takes place in Finnland, and have it not factor in Moiraine's return even as she has been trapped in Finnland? She'll have to explain what happened there to some extent right? We know that you get three requests and that you must bargain for you very life. It's rather dubious to omit those details...Almost as dubious as omitting say...who killed Asmodean.

 

I'm very sure that the reason Moiraine was removed from the story was not so she could kill Asmodean.

 

As for everything concerning Moiraine and the finns, you might have noticed that Min has had viewings that Rand will fail without Moiraine. Now, before she fell through the doorway, Moiraine was "just" an Aes Sedai. More knowledgable than most, sure. But I'm sure Verin is more knowledgable, and it's very possible cadsuane is at least on the same level as Moiraine. And Moiraine was powerful when the series started, but now we have quite a few channelers who are far stronger. So what's up with Rand desperatly needing her? There you have the reason for her stay in finnland. Removing Asmodean seems quite small compared to that, don't you think?

 

I'm sorry...where in the books is it said that she knows Asmodean is the weakest of the Forsaken? And how does that really apply? It's like saying, "that person is swimming in the water with the least dangerous Great White shark."

 

One of the weakest, not the weakest. Not even RJ has the exact strengths written out. We know Moiraine has read a lot about everything connected with TG, which obviously includes what fragments still exist about the Forsaken. And even if she hasn't read anything about Asmodeans strength, the fact that rand is keeping him as a pet speaks for itself.

 

It's simple. She knows where Asmodean is. He's nearby Rand. He won't be expecting her to kill him, and she doesn't want him around Rand period. Let's get off that line right away that she was complicit with Rand keeping a pet Forsaken. Absolutely not. It's one of the biggest misconceptions and misreads that most people take from her letter to Rand. I can go on for hours about this.

 

Anyhow...she knows pretty much exactly where to find Asmodean. Everyone else is either hidden (Demandred, Mesaana) or too difficult to approach and attack, like Sammael.

 

How foolish would it be of her to just ask to get a shot at Sammael in his own fortress with him on the alert?

 

You mean that she doesn't think Asmodean would be alert? He's kept as a pet by his "1 enemy, his old allies are just waiting to get a shot at him, it's very possible at least some of the Black Ajah has recieved orders to kill him on sight...

 

And what exactly would someone like Sammael be on the alert for? Oh right, a MAN channeling. If the guess that the finns can teleport people to any place in the world is correct, she wouldn't have to channel until she blasted him to oblivion, so he wouldn't get much of a warning.

 

She may not be complicit with Rand keeping Asmodean aound, but she can figure out roughly how much of a threat Asmo poses, compared to how much of a threat the other forsaken poses. She must realize that something is holding Asmodean in place, not even someone as intellectually challenged as Rand would take in Asmo on his word only.

 

In a dark hallway, in a palace you are rather unfamiliar with, how is there a distinction between that hallway and a darkly lit place beyond a door you opened?

 

Besides that; If there is a person standing on the other side of that doorway, wouldn't you be rather preoccupied with their presence and that fact that they're about to kill you? I wouldn't be that interested in the decor seeing as one of the last people I wanted to or expected to see was on the other side of the doorway I just opened.

 

He doesn't see his killer until he's taken one step. That's time enough to register that the place behind the door does not look anything like it's supposed to. Especially since he's looking for something, he's not walking a place where he's been so many times he knows them blindfolded.

 

RJ's words were that they cannot effect the outside world in any way. Them stepping outside of their world and placing Mat in a tree with a rope around his neck is pretty much the opposite of that statement.

 

In what way do they effect the world? Is there any difference between them walking outside to hang him up, and them just tossing him out? The answer is quite simple, No.

But if hanging Mat from the tree would be considered an effect, they would have the exact same effect on our world if they opened one of their eventual "doorways" Quite a trick to hang someone from a tree without having any part of the body in our world. Maybe they also have the ability to aim extremely well, and threw him from their "doorway". Too bad they can't compete in the olymics.

 

Your explanation is rather too convenient, with no backup evidence to support it. It's besides the point anyhow. The point was that there are different types of teleportation which myrdraal are an example of. There's skimming. Men Travel differently from women. You can travel using Tel Aran Rhiod. There's portal stones. There are the Ways...Several example of people transporting from one place to another in different ways. What's to stop one from imagining that the Finn have their own methods? Nothing. they already have demonstrated the use of two types of doorways and those are mostly for the outsiders to access them. the Tower of Ghengei and the Redstone doorways. They are both different ways to get to Finnland. How can you rule out that the Finns don't have their own way into the human world?

 

And there it is. Imagining. I hope you never have to go to court, because if you try to use your imagination as evidence, you will find yourself in a lot of trouble.

 

It's not wild speculation at all. It's rather logical. There is nothing in the books that says they cannot travel about of their own volition. If there is no given bar to them doing so, then it is logical to assume that there either is no bar to them or that there are ways for them to do so through parameters that haven't been explained to us.

 

There's nothing in the books that says that Bashere can't channel. Therefore he is the killer, he Travelled to the spot, and balefired Asmodean. Case closed.

 

What? I can't use my imagination?

 

How clumsy to think that the audience is going to read Asmodean's death so pragmatically. "He served his purpose..."

It's kind of nauseating when you think about it. Oh, I'm going to introduce this character for a while until I can come up with someone who can replace him and then I'm not going to explain when he's been given the axe, how he came his fate exactly.

Not explaining it requires calculation. there's a calculation that no one cares about the details involved in who killed him and how it affected the storyline afterwards.

 

You kidding me? Robert Jordan, not interested in details?

 

Take a moment to digest how stupid that sounds.

 

RJ said it was possible to solve without his clues. So that makes it a paradox. He said you can figure it out as obvious, and then later says that there are clues to help you later…That doesn’t make sense. If it’s obvious you don’t need any clues.

 

That makes it a mystery. Treat it as such and don't fool yourselves into thinking that Graendal is somehow obvious. She wasn't obvious EVER. To get to her as a conclusion you almost have to do trigonometry and take an ethics and philosphy course.

 

RJ is a skilled writer. Ever thought that he might have found the idea of putting a little murder mystery in the book to tempting to resist? Especially since he has said that he finds it funny to see how we as a collective bang our heads against the wall trying to find the evidence he claims are obvious. He has given several nods to Tolkien throughout the books, it's possible that Asmodean is his little nod to Agatha Christie.

 

Is it really that hard to picture RJ sitting there, about to write about Asnmodean's death. He has known for a long time that this is the point where Asmo must die, it's crucial to the plot. He's known for a long time that the killer should be X. But he finds the notion of X just popping in and killing Asmo quite boring. He can't throw in a new parameter, because that might screw up plotlines in the future. And then he looks at his bookshell, and notices that Agatha Christie book he read when he was 10, and thinks "That's it! I throw in a little murder mystery, so my readers get something to play with."

 

Well, if you want to get into chess…a common pawn can become a queen if you are clever.

 

But that change is a part of the game, every player knows about it. Turning the Bishop into a Queen on the other hand...

 

There is no invention involved with the Finns moving people in and out of their realm. We already know two ways to get there. It’s obvious to me that those ways are meant to make it so that humans can get to them. They’ve otherwise showed no limitation to their abilities in getting into the human world, nor have they demonstrated a desire to leave their realm except on request.

 

Think back to Mat's visit with the Aelfinn. They got very excited about his need to leave, They physically threw him out. Now, it was very obvious how important it was to get him out of there asap, considering that the entire place seemed about to fall apart. Now, where was the magical "doorway" then? You'd think that they would have used any means available to make him leave before their home was destroyed. But no, they used the usual doorway, even though it meant having Mat in their realm longer.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There are serious problems with theories on Moiraine.

 

1 - Timing.

 

If Mat's experience is evidence of the time differential, then the ratio of time inside the Eelfinn world is 1:120. [OK here's the math. Mat was inside for about 1 hour subjectively (that's generous) and at least 5 days passed outside (they returned on the seventh day, at dawn, so 6+ days passed total I'm giving them 1+ days for travel, fighting, resting, and incidental wandering in Rhuidean. 5 days is 120 hours, hence, 1:120.) Asmodean was killed between 8 and 10 hours after Moiraine passed through. At that ratio, Moiraine had 5 to 6 minutes from the time she passed through to finish her business with Lanfear, make her bargain, and nix Asmodean. That's not very likely.

 

If the time differential is NOT the same (which is entirely possible, since they did not experience a large time difference from the ter'angreal in Tear) then we have no basis to establish a time line. Since RJ said all the necessary clues were there, and knowing how much time Moiraine (or anyone) had is essential to placing them at the murder scene, both Mat's timescale and a flexible timescale disqualify Moiraine.

 

2 - Her current status as prisoner of the Eelfinn.

 

There is also the problem of how the Eelfinn got her back, if she did request a shot at Asmodean. This is from the Tor Question of the Week #1, Feb 2005.

 

Q: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world?

 

A: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all.

 

That would have to include snatching someone back into their world from the outside world. So unless Moiraine agreed to go back willingly as part of the bargain (and she would have had to travel all the way to the Tower of Ghenjei to do so, since the ter'angreal was destroyed) then they would no longer hold her.

 

She is VERY unlikely to agree to this, even knowing that Mat, Thom, and person X (Noal) are coming for her eventually. And even if she was willing to go back, she would have much more important things to do than strike at Asmodean. She told Rand in his letter to be wary of him, as if she expected him to be with Rand for some time to come. Why would she waste space in her last letter with a warning she intended to make moot?

 

Her motive and opportunity are both seriously flawed.

She has the means, with Asmodean shielded, she could easily overcome him, but the case for Graendal is SO much firmer on all three points.

 

Graendal - Motive

 

Al'Thor having a teacher makes him much more dangerous. With time, Asmodean's shield would have either dissipated, or he could have managed to teach Rand to cut it. That would have allowed Asmodean to teach truly useful things to Rand. From Graendal's point of view, removing him is a bonus with no downside. He's a known traitor, so no backlash from the Dark One. She can do it without revealing her position. And it further confuses al'Thor when she leaves no tangible evidence.

 

Means - Graendal is far stronger than Asmodean with the power, in his shielded state. Any direct contest between them is no contest. Graendal is known to willingly strike only when she has the clear advantage, and she has it here.

 

Opportunity - As part of the cabal which included Rahvin, she has access to his territory in Caemlyn. She knows of al'Thor's whereabouts. And, since they were anticpating an impending attack on Sammael, one which she and Rahvin were to meet linked, she had every reason to be in Caemlyn at the time. When al'Thor appeared unexpectedly, she would have immediately gone to ground. It would not have been difficult for her to remain hidden through the fighting, or to have left and returned following it. Al'Thor had no idea she would be anywhere near and no reason to hunt for her. Following the collapse of the cabal, her priority would be to weaken al'Thor's position in a way that did not expose her to danger. The immediately available, safe target: his teacher.

 

No outside help, no problems with timing, and a solidly identifiable, immediately prectical motive, lots of opportunity. A MUCH stronger case.

[RobertAlexWillis]

For the Eelfinn, moving someone out of their world is affecting their world. Taking someone out of the outside world is affecting the outside world. They could have sent her out to a specific time and place, but they could not snatch her back on their own.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There is no difference between the Eelfin removing someone from their world to another or them pulling someone from another into theirs. In either instance, both worlds are affected. The one through addition, the other through subtraction.

[Jonn]

How many examples do you need to figure out that Moiraine is not only mysterious, but very dangerous and more than capable of anything you can imagine?

 

We are not talking about Moiraines abilities here. The abilities that are required for Moiraine to even be possible as the killer are for the Eelfinn to know the exact location of a person at any given time, and the ability for them to teleport someone to that location, and then teleport them back. It's trying to prove something backwards, "Moiraine did it, and therefore they must have these abilities".

 

It's not backwards. We know that the Eelfin are powerful from Mat's encounter. Moiraine disappeared through the same doorway as Mat.

 

How hard is it to come to a conclusion from that situation?

 

It's simple to me.

 

If RJ had not said that we should be able to figure it out at the time it happened, I would have accepted moiraine as a cnadidate, because then there would be room for unknown abilities. But there is no such room. In order to figure something out, you can not use guesses like this as evidence, it doesn't work. It would be similar to someone being killed by channeling, and several books later it's revealed that it was perrin, who's been able to channel all the time, he just hasn't showed it.

 

Look, it all works chronologically. Mat goes through the doorway and comes out with more abilities, though at a price. We see the gain and the price paid.

 

Moiraine goes through the same doorway...Can we not expect the same parameters to apply?

 

RJ writes the death of Asmodean in a certain way. He reminds us of Lanfear, and thus her disappearance through that doorway. Who else went through that doorway?

 

The scene, in fact, has us thinking about certain people who have recently disappeared through a doorway (Lanfear and Moiraine by connection) then Asmodean opens a doorway and himself disappears.

 

That's not suggestive at all to you?

It's not a big deal? Why is she removed from the story? Why are we given that whole scene with Mat in the Foxlands? It's called foreshadowing, isn't it?

 

Why set the audience up with the knowledge of what takes place in Finnland, and have it not factor in Moiraine's return even as she has been trapped in Finnland? She'll have to explain what happened there to some extent right? We know that you get three requests and that you must bargain for you very life. It's rather dubious to omit those details...Almost as dubious as omitting say...who killed Asmodean.

 

I'm very sure that the reason Moiraine was removed from the story was not so she could kill Asmodean.

 

Don't be crass. I never said that.

 

We all know the reason she disappeared was to eliminate Lanfear, the baddest baddie besides Ishamael.

 

To kill Asmodean would complete the extraction of all Forsaken with any open relationship with Rand. that serves a purpose.

 

As for everything concerning Moiraine and the finns, you might have noticed that Min has had viewings that Rand will fail without Moiraine. Now, before she fell through the doorway, Moiraine was "just" an Aes Sedai. More knowledgable than most, sure. But I'm sure Verin is more knowledgable, and it's very possible cadsuane is at least on the same level as Moiraine. And Moiraine was powerful when the series started, but now we have quite a few channelers who are far stronger. So what's up with Rand desperatly needing her? There you have the reason for her stay in finnland. Removing Asmodean seems quite small compared to that, don't you think?

 

Nope. Removing Asmodean is important. If it wasn't important, why mention him in her letter at all? If she really wasn't concerned with Asmodean, why impress anything upon Rand regarding him? She had limited time and room to say what she needed to say. So it is fair to say that she said all she NEEDED to say in that letter. She needed to say something about Asmodean. Ask why.

 

Why?

 

If she did fail to kill Asmodean (which she might have forseen in the rings of Rhuidean), there is an open-ended warning to Rand about Asmodean in her letter. If she did not fail (which I suspect) there is a justification to her actions in that she knew what Asmodean really was and acknowledged it.

 

I'm sorry...where in the books is it said that she knows Asmodean is the weakest of the Forsaken? And how does that really apply? It's like saying, "that person is swimming in the water with the least dangerous Great White shark."

 

One of the weakest, not the weakest. Not even RJ has the exact strengths written out. We know Moiraine has read a lot about everything connected with TG, which obviously includes what fragments still exist about the Forsaken. And even if she hasn't read anything about Asmodeans strength, the fact that rand is keeping him as a pet speaks for itself.

 

I stand by my statement. A Great White is a Great White. Or as Siuan would say, A silverpike is a silverpike.

 

It's simple. She knows where Asmodean is. He's nearby Rand. He won't be expecting her to kill him, and she doesn't want him around Rand period. Let's get off that line right away that she was complicit with Rand keeping a pet Forsaken. Absolutely not. It's one of the biggest misconceptions and misreads that most people take from her letter to Rand. I can go on for hours about this.

 

Anyhow...she knows pretty much exactly where to find Asmodean. Everyone else is either hidden (Demandred, Mesaana) or too difficult to approach and attack, like Sammael.

 

How foolish would it be of her to just ask to get a shot at Sammael in his own fortress with him on the alert?

 

You mean that she doesn't think Asmodean would be alert? He's kept as a pet by his "1 enemy, his old allies are just waiting to get a shot at him, it's very possible at least some of the Black Ajah has recieved orders to kill him on sight...

 

Asmodean wouldn't be alert for someone who was supposed to be dead. He'd be shocked first to see them, and never equate Moiraine with a person he has to kill on sight.

 

Which actually explains why Asmodean was unable to defend himself.

 

If he saw one of the Forsaken in the doorway, however weak he was, wouldn't he lash out to defend himself immediately?

 

Seeing Moiraine there would stall him, frighten him as he is looking at a dead person, and finally in his shock he wouldn't be able to defend himself when Moiraine raises her hand to zap him.

 

And what exactly would someone like Sammael be on the alert for? Oh right, a MAN channeling. If the guess that the finns can teleport people to any place in the world is correct, she wouldn't have to channel until she blasted him to oblivion, so he wouldn't get much of a warning.

 

You really are reaching here.

 

Sammael was more than competent in a tactical sense. He is one of the strongest around in the One Power. His specialty was defense. He was expecting anything and everything to attack him at the time of Asmodean's death. Remember...the plan was for Rand to attack Illian. Sammael was on his guard for anything coming his way.

 

She may not be complicit with Rand keeping Asmodean aound,

 

Let's stop right here. I don't think Moiraine would ever tolerate one of the Forsaken to remain in Rand's confidence. Whatever the arrangement.

 

but she can figure out roughly how much of a threat Asmo poses, compared to how much of a threat the other forsaken poses. She must realize that something is holding Asmodean in place, not even someone as intellectually challenged as Rand would take in Asmo on his word only.

 

Yet she still wouldn't know what that thing was that holds Asmodean to Rand. It is yet another unknown to consider. Would she leave him in place? I think not. Target one is Lanfear. Whatever she can arrange for Asmodean will have to come after that.

 

In a dark hallway, in a palace you are rather unfamiliar with, how is there a distinction between that hallway and a darkly lit place beyond a door you opened?

 

Besides that; If there is a person standing on the other side of that doorway, wouldn't you be rather preoccupied with their presence and that fact that they're about to kill you? I wouldn't be that interested in the decor seeing as one of the last people I wanted to or expected to see was on the other side of the doorway I just opened.

 

He doesn't see his killer until he's taken one step. That's time enough to register that the place behind the door does not look anything like it's supposed to. Especially since he's looking for something, he's not walking a place where he's been so many times he knows them blindfolded.

 

What? The palace is not some place he's familiar with. How would he know the difference between one room and a room in the Finn realm? It only takes a second or so before he sees the murderer, so it's not like he was fixated on what the room looked like beyond the door he opened. He opened the door, and saw someone that stopped him dead...literally. The focus is the person, not the room.

 

RJ's words were that they cannot effect the outside world in any way. Them stepping outside of their world and placing Mat in a tree with a rope around his neck is pretty much the opposite of that statement.

 

In what way do they effect the world? Is there any difference between them walking outside to hang him up, and them just tossing him out? The answer is quite simple, No.

But if hanging Mat from the tree would be considered an effect, they would have the exact same effect on our world if they opened one of their eventual "doorways" Quite a trick to hang someone from a tree without having any part of the body in our world. Maybe they also have the ability to aim extremely well, and threw him from their "doorway". Too bad they can't compete in the olymics.

 

So, what is your point?

 

There is a difference between hanging someone and throwing them out of a doorway dead.

 

You have to drag him out, put the noose around his neck, put a foreign object (the ashanderai) in the branches of Avendesora, string his body up and then leave.

 

That's no minor thing to do.

 

If they aren't supposed to affect the outside world IN ANY WAY...I would say that the process I just explained disproves that statement, regardless of it coming from RJ.

 

Your explanation is rather too convenient, with no backup evidence to support it. It's besides the point anyhow. The point was that there are different types of teleportation which myrdraal are an example of. There's skimming. Men Travel differently from women. You can travel using Tel Aran Rhiod. There's portal stones. There are the Ways...Several example of people transporting from one place to another in different ways. What's to stop one from imagining that the Finn have their own methods? Nothing. they already have demonstrated the use of two types of doorways and those are mostly for the outsiders to access them. the Tower of Ghengei and the Redstone doorways. They are both different ways to get to Finnland. How can you rule out that the Finns don't have their own way into the human world?

 

And there it is. Imagining. I hope you never have to go to court, because if you try to use your imagination as evidence, you will find yourself in a lot of trouble.

 

As opposed to completely circumstantial evidence in convicting Graendal?

 

We're debating events in an entirely IMAGINARY world.

 

What do I have to imagine to place Graendal in Moiraine's stead? A lot. It's all speculation, and if you wanted to go to court on that, you'd have no more luck than I would Maj.

 

It's not wild speculation at all. It's rather logical. There is nothing in the books that says they cannot travel about of their own volition. If there is no given bar to them doing so, then it is logical to assume that there either is no bar to them or that there are ways for them to do so through parameters that haven't been explained to us.

 

There's nothing in the books that says that Bashere can't channel. Therefore he is the killer, he Travelled to the spot, and balefired Asmodean. Case closed.What? I can't use my imagination?

 

No need to be facetious.

 

Besides, what you just demonstrated was not imagination. It's called nonsense.

 

How clumsy to think that the audience is going to read Asmodean's death so pragmatically. "He served his purpose..."

It's kind of nauseating when you think about it. Oh, I'm going to introduce this character for a while until I can come up with someone who can replace him and then I'm not going to explain when he's been given the axe, how he came his fate exactly.

Not explaining it requires calculation. there's a calculation that no one cares about the details involved in who killed him and how it affected the storyline afterwards.

 

You kidding me? Robert Jordan, not interested in details?

 

Take a moment to digest how stupid that sounds.

 

RJ said it was possible to solve without his clues. So that makes it a paradox. He said you can figure it out as obvious, and then later says that there are clues to help you later…That doesn’t make sense. If it’s obvious you don’t need any clues.

 

That makes it a mystery. Treat it as such and don't fool yourselves into thinking that Graendal is somehow obvious. She wasn't obvious EVER. To get to her as a conclusion you almost have to do trigonometry and take an ethics and philosphy course.

 

RJ is a skilled writer. Ever thought that he might have found the idea of putting a little murder mystery in the book to tempting to resist? Especially since he has said that he finds it funny to see how we as a collective bang our heads against the wall trying to find the evidence he claims are obvious. He has given several nods to Tolkien throughout the books, it's possible that Asmodean is his little nod to Agatha Christie.

 

Is it really that hard to picture RJ sitting there, about to write about Asnmodean's death. He has known for a long time that this is the point where Asmo must die, it's crucial to the plot. He's known for a long time that the killer should be X. But he finds the notion of X just popping in and killing Asmo quite boring. He can't throw in a new parameter, because that might screw up plotlines in the future. And then he looks at his bookshell, and notices that Agatha Christie book he read when he was 10, and thinks "That's it! I throw in a little murder mystery, so my readers get something to play with."

 

Now that is entirely imaginary. You have RJ looking at an Agatha Cristie novel and him basing Asmodean's death off of that just to amuse himself.

 

Gee, instead of writing something that makes sense, I'm going to create a dead end in the narrative just as an inside joke.

 

It's preposterous.

 

Well, if you want to get into chess…a common pawn can become a queen if you are clever.

 

But that change is a part of the game, every player knows about it. Turning the Bishop into a Queen on the other hand...

 

What tells you that no one can see how people gain abilities in these novels?

 

It happens all of the time. There are dozens of examples. There are a lot of people doing what is supposed to be improbable if not impossible.

 

If you can change a pawn into a queen, what's to say you can't sacrifice a bishop to move that pawn into position to become a queen instead.

 

Same basic premise. You exchanged a bishop for a queen.

 

There's more than one way to do something. That's the theme here.

 

There is no invention involved with the Finns moving people in and out of their realm. We already know two ways to get there. It’s obvious to me that those ways are meant to make it so that humans can get to them. They’ve otherwise showed no limitation to their abilities in getting into the human world, nor have they demonstrated a desire to leave their realm except on request.

 

Think back to Mat's visit with the Aelfinn. They got very excited about his need to leave, They physically threw him out. Now, it was very obvious how important it was to get him out of there asap, considering that the entire place seemed about to fall apart. Now, where was the magical "doorway" then? You'd think that they would have used any means available to make him leave before their home was destroyed. But no, they used the usual doorway, even though it meant having Mat in their realm longer.

 

They're not the Eelfin are they. The Aelfin see the future and tell true answers. They don't grant requests or actually do anything, besides taste your soul and tell you things. I don't imagine that they do anything as extensive as what the Eelfin do. So, I don't see your example as applicable.

[Jonn]

There are serious problems with theories on Moiraine.

 

1 - Timing.

 

If Mat's experience is evidence of the time differential, then the ratio of time inside the Eelfinn world is 1:120. [OK here's the math. Mat was inside for about 1 hour subjectively (that's generous) and at least 5 days passed outside (they returned on the seventh day, at dawn, so 6+ days passed total I'm giving them 1+ days for travel, fighting, resting, and incidental wandering in Rhuidean. 5 days is 120 hours, hence, 1:120.) Asmodean was killed between 8 and 10 hours after Moiraine passed through. At that ratio, Moiraine had 5 to 6 minutes from the time she passed through to finish her business with Lanfear, make her bargain, and nix Asmodean. That's not very likely.

 

If the time differential is NOT the same (which is entirely possible, since they did not experience a large time difference from the ter'angreal in Tear) then we have no basis to establish a time line. Since RJ said all the necessary clues were there, and knowing how much time Moiraine (or anyone) had is essential to placing them at the murder scene, both Mat's timescale and a flexible timescale disqualify Moiraine.

 

Here's where the previous dealing with the Aelfinn can be instructive. Mat, Rand and Moiraine all went into the doorway there at separate times. They never saw each other and the only indication that anyone else was there at the same time was the effect of two ta'veren in the realm at the same time.

 

Thing is, they came out of the doorway in a relatively reasonable amount of time and almost on top of one another at that.

 

This is an indication to me that the laws of time and space are very flexible and that is evident to any reader who has read about that encounter in Tear, Portal Stones, The Ways or Tel'Aran'Rhiod. So this isn't a case of readers making things up or not understanding the concepts of warped existence in the novels. This is established thematically from the beginning of the series.

 

It should be no surprise that time works differently in different instances when using these ter'angreal and entering these alternate worlds.

 

The math, in other words, is unnecessary.

 

2 - Her current status as prisoner of the Eelfinn.

 

There is also the problem of how the Eelfinn got her back, if she did request a shot at Asmodean. This is from the Tor Question of the Week #1, Feb 2005.

 

Q: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world?

 

A: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all.

 

I discussed this at length in the posts to Maj.

 

I've basically discarded RJ's statement here. Mat's experience is directly contrary to this statement, and I pay ultimate heed to what is in the books. Statements from outside can be taken out of context and misinterpreted.

 

That would have to include snatching someone back into their world from the outside world. So unless Moiraine agreed to go back willingly as part of the bargain (and she would have had to travel all the way to the Tower of Ghenjei to do so, since the ter'angreal was destroyed) then they would no longer hold her.

 

She is VERY unlikely to agree to this, even knowing that Mat, Thom, and person X (Noal) are coming for her eventually. And even if she was willing to go back, she would have much more important things to do than strike at Asmodean. She told Rand in his letter to be wary of him, as if she expected him to be with Rand for some time to come. Why would she waste space in her last letter with a warning she intended to make moot?

 

I think she did agree to remain in their custody. She would have figured out that there is a price to pay in dealing with the Eelfinn. There are a couple of ways to get around paying with your life (Which seems to be what the Eelfinn are more likely to be after than anything).

One would be to make no bargain (I have a feeling this might get you killed). The next option would be to make an incomplete bargain. Make the first request, the second request and then stop before you make the last wish. The other option would be to have one wish be for your life, but the price is to remain with them.

 

As we saw in Knife of Dreams, they take a piece of you no matter what kind of deal you make with them. So my guess is that Moiraine is waiting to get a hand in cheating the Eelfinn.

 

Her motive and opportunity are both seriously flawed.

She has the means, with Asmodean shielded, she could easily overcome him, but the case for Graendal is SO much firmer on all three points.

 

I've argued Moiraine's motive for a while now and I believe her desire is strongest besides Lanfear's. Lanfear is more likely to go after Rand though, so that eliminated her for me.

 

Moiraine is dedicated to the cause of seeing Rand to the Last battle and his victory. One of her principles from the beginning of the books was summed up by her saying, and letting them know what she says is true as Aes Sedai, that she would kill the Two Rivers folk rather than let the Shadow have them.

 

Well, she couldn't well kill Rand so the only thing left is to not let the Shadow have him, or even a chance to influence his path.

 

She grew more and more helpless to stop Rand from going off and doing whatever he wanted to. She was caught in a predicament of having to choose who was the most dangerous to Rand at the time. Her choice ended up being to take out Lanfear, but she wasn't going to let Asmodean stay in play.

Her letter is suspicious to me, because she mentions Asmodean quite prominently. She admits that she knew who he was, what he was...and she said that she cannot approve...but understands. This is pretty much saying that she forgives Rand in his need for a teacher, but it also says that she cannot approve .

What, pray, does that mean?

 

This statement does not in any way, exclude her possible intentions in killing Asmodean. In fact, her acknowledgement that she knows he's Forsaken is a requirement for her being able to kill him in the first place. So, if Asmodean is small fry, why make a point in explaining her thoughts about him?

 

She was up to something. No no, this letter does not let her off the hook. Quite the opposite actually.

 

I see Moiraine's motive as being the strongest, because her reasons are not for her own gain or anything as superficial as what any of the Forsaken might get from killing a rival. This situation is quite serious and personal to her. She has no real feeling for Asmodean, but her feelings about Rand are very strong. to protect him, she was willing to go to any length. Moiraine Damodred was not one to let the job remain half-done either. If one of the Forsaken had the Dragon Reborn's ear, regardless of whether he thinks he needs him or not, it would be unacceptable for Moiraine to let a Forsaken like Asmodean be.

 

I also cannot see her approving one of the Forsaken to REPLACE her as Rand's guide and mentor. Not when she has dedicated herself to making sure that such a thing can never happen. She killed Lanfear for the same reason, no way she's going to let Asmodean remain a factor.

 

The entire trap with Lanfear at the docks was so elaborate, so complex...it's actually kind of hard to see how even Moiraine was able to pull it off.

 

Now, a woman who can plan and execute such a trap so perfectly...You really think making a bargain with the Eelfinn is going to daunt her when it comes to accomplishing her life's goal?

[Cybertrolloc]

I also cannot see her approving one of the Forsaken to REPLACE her as Rand's guide and mentor. Not when she has dedicated herself to making sure that such a thing can never happen. She killed Lanfear for the same reason' date=' no way she's going to let Asmodean remain a factor.

 

The entire trap with Lanfear at the docks was so elaborate, so complex...it's actually kind of hard to see how even Moiraine was able to pull it off.[/quote']

That's not why she had to sacrifice herself to take out Lanfear albeit temporarily. It might also have her lying in her letter in the portions about Rand being capable of guiding himself...have to think about that one. Also need to go through our last te a te a few pages back, I don't buy that the destruction of the doorway is meaningless to the Eels, or that you're not drawing too much from Mat's (he's Taveran) experience in Eelfinnland.

 

Time in the Finns is still flexible enough unless Jordan has said something more confining about it that I'm not aware of--Mat mentions being held after his deal before he was strung up.

[Musenge]

Moirainne's letter excludes her from being Asmodeans killer. Why would she warn Rand to be wary of somebody she was going to kill?