Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)


Guest Egwene

spigots or caudrens  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28

This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

Robert Alex, how do you see the death of Lanfear and imprisonment of Moiraine to be a logical supporting evidence that melting the doorway has broken the treaty? Mat nearly died... he had not melted a doorway. Wouldn't Lanfears death suggest that going by the template of Mat's visit, she too did not negotiate a price?

 

Your points about the tower is interesting...maybe it is neutral ground of some sorts? The treaty was obviously made because both sides wanted something from each other... I am not sure whether to look upon the Finns as being 'confined' by the treaty, and whether, if it is completely broken, they would gain from that. Or whether the treaty was made in order to protect them from those forbidden items which we have to assume will blind, dazzle and bind them? I do expect to see the answer to that question in the next book. . :)

 

Maj, if the Finns knew about the link being cut, they would still regard Asmo as a darkfriend. As such he is part of the shadow rather than the light. The shadow are the DO AND his followers. Asmo was Rand's prisoner. His point of view is that 'he is still himself'. Himself is the one that went over to the shadow because himself wanted to. He committed evil beyond imagination. If he is behaving himself, it is because he has no choice. Given the choice he would beg the DO for forgiveness. That makes him a liability and potential threat to the Dragon.

 

With reference to RJ's statement about what the Finns can and can't do. One could say that hanging Mat is something they can do because it is part of the treaty that if no prize is negotiated, they set it themselves. Mat is at that point not in the outside world. Thus they are not changing anything outside.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Guest cwestervelt

Why would the Treaties not apply if you enter through the Tower? The fact that the Finn's get to harvest Mat's memories the same as they did to those you entered via the Tower all but confirms this. Why else would the adventurer's that RJ mentions have bothered if they weren't going to get something in return?

 

RobertAlexWillis: Also .... are we a hundred percent sure the Treaty applies if you go in through the Tower? We haven't seen anyone go in that way yet. I'm not saying it doesn't, but we don't KNOW that it does. And the deals made that provided Mat's memories aren't proof. There had to be the possibility of making deals before the treaty, or the treaty could never have been made. And if there is a way to make deals outside of the treaty, you can bet entering through the Tower of Ghenjei is the way to do it.

 

What is to say that the first deal made wasn't the Treaties? It would make sense to lay down the ground rules for future dealings. If both sides were already able to get what they wanted via random dealings, there wouldn't be any need for formalizing the arrangement. Especially when the proposed lack of treaty has the same contingencies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jonn, obvious things like saidar/saidin mixups and a few not quite minor things (like Verin meeting up with the group in tGH) are changed or corrected for new editions/printings. Nothing so far as to have Rahvin killing Rand in book 5 though ;)

 

I'll take a written explanation from Jordan (especially a current one) over what's written in say the first 3 books. Things one power related got a lot of retconning in book 4 for example. Questions from signings should be taken with a grain of salt, especially anything where Jordan doesn't have a ready answer.

 

Archived here.

Questions from February 1st' date=' 2005 - July 19th, 2005

 

Week 1 Question:[/b'] Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

You can dig throught the blog entries, I think he's also added some info there. Edit: fast enough to search, nothing new there on the Finn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jonn, obvious things like saidar/saidin mixups and a few not quite minor things (like Verin meeting up with the group in tGH) are changed for new editions/printings. Nothing so far as to have Rahvin killing Rand in book 5 though ;)

 

I'll take a written explanation from Jordan (especially a current one) over what's written in say the first 3 books. Things one power related got a lot of retconning in book 4 for example.

 

OK, so what has been changed in the printed books to amend RJ's comment about the Finns affecting the outside world?

 

I'm not convinced of this movement where people are suggesting that earlier novels are somehow early drafts of how RJ wanted his world to look. I'm not convinced that RJ needs to make tons of statements to correct mistakes he made in explaining things in the early books.

I always took his comments and Q&A sessions as SUPPLEMENTAL to the readings rather than any kind of editorial on his own work.

 

 

Archived here.

Questions from February 1st, 2005 - July 19th, 2005

 

Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

You can dig throught the blog entries, I think he's also added some info there.

 

Thanks for posting that.

 

As you can see there is much more to it than "The Finns cannot affect the outside world at all."

I only discard the interpretation of what some here are applying to the situation. I think the statement is incomplete. The wording is a bit off. If I could edit what he said I'd chop off "-at all". The fact is that the Eelfinn do affect the outside world simply by dealing with the outside world's inhabitants. I think the meaning behind the statement translates more towards the Eelfinn not being able to affect the world directly while granting requests. The underlined part is important to note as I'll explain later. The latter statements in the quote about being made King of the World support my premise that the Eelfinn are not completely limited in affecting the outside world. The way it works is, the Eelfin will not do anything for you. They simply give you what you need to accomplish whatever your goal is. THE PRICE, I believe, is where they deviate from their limitations a bit.

 

Mat hanging from a Avendesora was the price for his gifts.

 

Re-read the quote carefully.

 

RJ was talking about the limitations of the Eelfinns' "...power to grant wishes.."

 

I don't believe he was talking about their general ability to do things. If exacting a certain price from their clients, there may be fewer restrictions on them than when they are granting requests.

 

If Moiraine was retaken or held by the Eelfinn after killing Asmodean, it would have been part of the price that she paid and hence, further outside the limitations placed on them to affect things outside of their realm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was exactly the point I was making a few pages back about the interaction of the Eelfinn and humans. They seem to give you the items or skills that will allow you to accomplish your needs. Mat for example, got the medallion(a thing), the memories(an ability/skill), and his Ashanderi(a thing). Why they would use that and not a regular quarterstaff is beyond me, but it's still a thing that was given to him in response to his last request, hence the inscription.

 

Moirane already had the ability to kill Asmo had she wanted to, especially in his weakened condition. She'd done it once already with Bel'al so what could they give her?

 

The part about them being able to place you in different worlds does answer my question about how Moiraine could have gotten to Camelyn. If they can place you in a different world then obviously they could put her into position in Camelyn without having to leave their world. But how would they get her back once Asmo was dead? For example, Mat felt the rope around his neck before the was thrown back to Rhuidean but he did not specify where in Rhuidean he wanted to go, so they took their "price" and decided for him.

 

RJ said that their ability to affect the world is limited so they could put her there, but once there, she's in this world again and beyond their control. If they can't affect this world, then how do they yank her back after it's done? It just doesn't add up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was exactly the point I was making a few pages back about the interaction of the Eelfinn and humans. They seem to give you the items or skills that will allow you to accomplish your needs. Mat for example, got the medallion(a thing), the memories(an ability/skill), and his Ashanderi(a thing). Why they would use that and not a regular quarterstaff is beyond me, but it's still a thing that was given to him in response to his last request, hence the inscription.

 

Actually, his last request was to be away from them (The Eelfinn). The Ashanderai was like a receipt. That is why it had the inscription.

 

Moirane already had the ability to kill Asmo had she wanted to, especially in his weakened condition. She'd done it once already with Bel'al so what could they give her?

 

The opportunity.

 

The part about them being able to place you in different worlds does answer my question about how Moiraine could have gotten to Camelyn. If they can place you in a different world then obviously they could put her into position in Camelyn without having to leave their world. But how would they get her back once Asmo was dead? For example, Mat felt the rope around his neck before the was thrown back to Rhuidean but he did not specify where in Rhuidean he wanted to go, so they took their "price" and decided for him.

 

RJ said that their ability to affect the world is limited so they could put her there, but once there, she's in this world again and beyond their control. If they can't affect this world, then how do they yank her back after it's done? It just doesn't add up.

 

Is it that hard to consider the possibilities?

 

Well, what if she never left their world? You can open a gateway and stay on your side of the opening. The unsuspecting victim opens the door right in front of your gateway, takes one step and is through. He's dead meat. Just an example.

 

I understand if people don't pay too close attention to what I'm saying here. I know, I post a lot on the subject, but please give a look at my last post before this. I did try to explain my thoughts on how I think RJ's quote is being misinterpretted. Read RJ's quote a bit more carefully and consider how it applies to the reality of what is printed in the books.

 

In any case, the Eelfinn were able and willing to bend the rules when they hung Mat from Avendesora OUTSIDE of their realm. What's to say they cannot find a way to exact their price from Moiraine in which she has no choice but to stay with them?

 

The simple answer is; If they can put you there, they can take you back.

 

If you read the RJ quote carefully, what it really says is that what they can give you is what is limited. What they can take from you is a different matter. If you owe them...you think they won't try to take the price from you back by force?

 

In Knife of Dreams, Mat makes it clear that they like to take more than you are even fully aware of at first. Again, where they bend the rules in affecting the outside world has to do with the price, not the gift. Mat was hung as a price.

 

In the case of Moiraine, she is being held presumably as part of a price she must pay. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine that if the Eelfinn mean to take your freedom for a price, they will do so by what they see is their right. If she wanted to kill a target, though, especially Asmodean, they would let her do it. All they need do is give her the opportunity.[/u]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In any case, the Eelfinn were able and willing to bend the rules when they hung Mat from Avendesora OUTSIDE of their realm. What's to say they cannot find a way to exact their price from Moiraine in which she has no choice but to stay with them?

 

I think, on this part at least, you missed my point slightly. I don't believe they bent the rules at all. Mat feels the noose around his neck before he leaves the Eelfinn's world but he ends up hung in Avendesora. Why? Because he simply said he wanted to be back in Rhuidean, not exactly where. He wasn't specific enough, so they anwered his need/wish and exstracted their price at the same time.

 

The opportunity.

 

She'd already had the opportunity, multiple times, if it meant that much to her. Finding and keeping Rand alive to fight Tarmon Gaidon, in a very real sense, is her life's work. If she felt Asmo was that big of a threat to Rand, she would have done something right when she figured it out. But intstead of killing him, she tells Rand in the letter that she understood and that perhaps it was the only way.

 

In any case, I stick by my theory (and I'll grant you it's a theory) that they give you item(s) and/or skill(s) that meet your needs and that once you are out of their world, where ever they happen to place you (on an unpopulated world so you can be king of nothing or hanging in a tree) you are out of their hands and they can't just suck you back in whenever they feel like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt

Mat felt the noose before he left, but the hanging itself occurred after being returned to Rhuidean. Had the price (his life) truly been paid while still in the land of the Finn's, he would have died there and Rand wouldn't have been able to revive him.

 

It's a bit of a tricky issue. Either the true price was the ability to spy on Mat, which would indicate the Eelfinn never intended for the hanging to kill Mat, or the price was Mat's life, and the ability to spy on him was "shipping and handling".

 

She'd already had the opportunity, multiple times, if it meant that much to her. Finding and keeping Rand alive to fight Tarmon Gaidon, in a very real sense, is her life's work. If she felt Asmo was that big of a threat to Rand, she would have done something right when she figured it out. But intstead of killing him, she tells Rand in the letter that she understood and that perhaps it was the only way.

 

How many times is it necessary to explain this? To Moiraine, the most important thing at the time was making sure that Rand neither went with Lanfear nor got killed by Lanfear. As such Moiraine would not do anything against Asmodean because of the potential that the slightest change could irreparably alter the future. The It's the first rule of anything that uses some form of time travel. Any change to the past can have serious and unpredictable repercussions in the present and future. What happens if you have a conversation with someone that makes him late for a seemingly trivial meeting? Say you make your 4 times great-grandfather late for or even miss his initial attempt at wooing of your 4 times great-grandmother? The wrong frist impression gets made and then who knows what happens. Asmodean could have been necessary for any number of reasons prior to the docks. What might have happened if he hadn't been around to hide the doorway Aviendha created to the Seanchan? Maybe an excursion of Seanchan into the Waste? What if there was something that Asmodean absolutely had to teach Rand before the confrontation with Lanfear? Something she knows will occur even though she doesn't know just what or when. It wouldn't be unprecedented. She knew they would get word about Morgase, just not when or what it would be about.

 

I understand that Moiraine did not come from the future or go into the past. The principles involved are still the same. The visions in Rhuidean essentially showed her how the future had to be. Anything that would cause the slightest variance to those visions would make the requirements for that future incomplete, and therefore impossible.

 

Then we get the nature of the visions. The subject of them is apparently shown all of the possible futures in their life. The only things that are absolute are ones that occur in all of the various possibilities. We also know from Aviendha, and I believe Moiraine comments on it to, that not all of them are remembered completely. Most just leave impressions that act as guides concerning what to do and when to achieve the desired outcome. It is entirely within the realms of possibily and probability that Moiraine had that type of lingering impression concerning disaster should she attack on Asmodean. After all, if she had visions concerning the outcome of such an unlikely action as sleeping with Rand, she almost certainly would have had visions concerning the much more likely probability of a confrontation with Asmodean.

 

Moiraines letter to Rand states that he should be wary of Asmodean. She knew who Asmodean was, so why wouldn't she. Especially when she didn't know if she would be able to act against him after her confrontation with Lanfear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing as we are scrutinising the Finns at the moment, here is an interesting theory I saw on Wotmania. Thought it might be of interest (not sure if you need to register for this part first)

 

http://wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1057&Category=Finn

 

Back to RJ's comment. I do believe the statement 'For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life...' quite clearly states a positive action by the Finns that one might say does 'affect'. Putting someone into another world, surly would have to be regarded as adding to that world. Which I would take to mean that they would also be able to subtract that person if he/she was still under the terms of the treaty.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt

Egwene, hopefully you get better results than when I tried that argument. No one really bothered trying to counter it, they just ignored it because it is another thing that doesn't fit with what they want to be true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back to RJ's comment. I do believe the statement 'For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life...' quite clearly states a positive action by the Finns that one might say does 'affect'. Putting someone into another world, surly would have to be regarded as adding to that world. Which I would take to mean that they would also be able to subtract that person if he/she was still under the terms of the treaty.

 

Please read my post on the difference between "affect" and "effect". It is possible to cause an "effect" in a place (which is what placing a person on another planet would be, and what sending Mat to his hanging appointment was) without "affecting" it directly.

 

And I have to say .... that WoTmania theory is chock full of baseless assumptions. Moiraine using Lan as an example of foolhardy courage is evidence that he went through the ter'angreal? Please. The bells are, what, counters? There is NO basis for that. Two hair thin, illusionary threads on which the whole theory stands.

 

Jordan is a storyteller, and all storytellers are, to some degree, performers. Of COURSE he's going to say RAFO with some kind of noteworthy facial expression. It keeps the readers' interest up and spawns entertaining crackpot theories.

 

I didn't mean to make that sound so personal, so whoever's theory that is, please don't be offended. I just definitely DON'T agree.

 

Moiraines letter to Rand states that he should be wary of Asmodean. She knew who Asmodean was, so why wouldn't she. Especially when she didn't know if she would be able to act against him after her confrontation with Lanfear.

 

I think I've been as vehemently against the Moiraine theory as anyone recently, but this particular point is very true. The fact that Moiraine did not act against Asmodean before the docks event is nothing more than evidence that preserving that scene perfectly was her primary objective. It is not proof that she would never act against him. My primary objections to Moiraine as his killer are based on different facts. I believe her warning letter, and acknowledgement that "Perhaps there was no other way." are simply supportive, but not, by themselves, indicative.

 

It's a bit of a tricky issue. Either the true price was the ability to spy on Mat, which would indicate the Eelfinn never intended for the hanging to kill Mat, or the price was Mat's life, and the ability to spy on him was "shipping and handling".

 

I believe that the "price" in the end, was access to his memories/sensations. Sending him back via hanging is evidence of their capricious nature. That capriciousness is the reason why everyone must be careful in bargaining with them, and why Moiraine would never make some of the vague requests that have been put forward in other theories.

 

Some other points to consider.

 

Asmodean's reaction is indicative. He would not INSTANTLY fear Moiraine. Remember, he didn't know that she knew about the docks (giving her a reason not to move against him), and so he would assume that either 1) she didn't know about him, or 2) she did know, and had decided to leave him alone because he was leashed. Considering his lack of reaction to her, he seems to have assumed that she did not know about him. So, his reaction would be "You?! How?" not "You?! NO!" Also, anything Moiraine did with the Power would be felt by Aviendha, who was relatively close by (Asmodean had only taken one step through the doorway leading out of the area where she and Mat were talking). Also, speaking of literary clues, Asmodean was thinking of how he would enjoy it when each of the other Forsaken was killed. To have one pop up in front of him, right then, would certainly have elicited that reaction.

 

His reaction indicated that he knew that whoever he saw, they were there to KILL HIM.

 

Read RJ's quote a bit more carefully and consider how it applies to the reality of what is printed in the books.

 

Read the definitions of affect and effect, and consider which one he used. Is it that hard to consider the possibilities?

 

The simple answer is; If they can put you there, they can take you back.

 

Thats just flat out not true. I can do lots of things to people that I can't undo. I can throw a rock off a bridge, but I can't draw it back to my hand. I can affect the rock by throwing it, causing the effect of the rock making the ripple, without me myself ever being in, or near the stream. I did not affect the stream, by I caused an EFFECT in the stream. All of the things having to do with Mat's return to Rhuidean are Effects, not the Eelfinn Affecting the outside world.

 

Again, where they bend the rules in affecting the outside world has to do with the price, not the gift. Mat was hung as a price.

 

Affect. Effect. Please learn English.

 

In the case of Moiraine, she is being held presumably as part of a price she must pay. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine that if the Eelfinn mean to take your freedom for a price, they will do so by what they see is their right.

 

 

I say they hold her because they see it as their right to hold door-melting vandalizers captive. And therefore, they wouldn't be obligated to give her anything.

 

I think the meaning behind the statement translates more towards the Eelfinn not being able to affect the world directly while granting requests.

 

RJ didn't, and hasn't made that exception. In fact, he gave an example of them fulfilling a wish in the very quote, and it didn't make that exception. YOU are making that exception because you HAVE to in order to fit your theory. Thats called "changing the data to fit the hypothesis". Its bad science, and bad logic.

 

I don't believe he was talking about their general ability to do things. If exacting a certain price from their clients, there may be fewer restrictions on them than when they are granting requests.

 

My above response applies verbatim.

 

What is to say that the first deal made wasn't the Treaties?

 

It may have been. We just don't KNOW. And since this thread is about who killed Asmodean, and positing Moiraine as his killer depends on understanding how the Eelfinn work, and Jordan said he left us all the clues we need, having this necesaary bit of knowledge lacking is damaging to her case. The questions I am raising are for the purpose of showing how MANY different reasons there are that Moiraine could not kill Asmodean, given everything we know. I include Jordan's statement about having given us all the necessary clues in the sum of what we know. Therefore, if he has given us all the clues, and we don't have the clues we need to know that Moiraine could have done it, we have to conclude that she didn't. I keep raising these questions in an effort to demonstrate that we just don't know if she even COULD have, much less WOULD have, much less DID.

 

I admit my answers are speculation, and could be incorrect. I maintain, however, that they are reasonable and could also be true. It is this ambiguity in the case for Moiraine that makes it suspect. And the existence of a rock solid case for Graendal forces ME to reject Moiraine's suspect case in light of Mr. Jordan's statements on the subject.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest cwestervelt

I know my English. I'll be nice and include definitions for you.

 

RobertAlexWillis: Please read my post on the difference between "affect" and "effect". It is possible to cause an "effect" in a place (which is what placing a person on another planet would be, and what sending Mat to his hanging appointment was) without "affecting" it directly.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=affect

affect

verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in: Cold weather affected the crops.

 

You affected the stream by adding the rock.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=effect

effect

noun 1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.

 

Adding the rock had the effect of causing the ripple.

 

They affected the world by adding a sentient being. Adding the sentient being had the effect of making the world no longer uninhabited by sentient life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, they affected the location of the being by putting him out of their world in such a way that he ended up in the other world, which had the effect of changing the current status of that world. They did not act directly on the world, just as I did not act directly on the river. RJ's statement using the word affect means that they cannot excersize their powers directly in the outside world, but by causing things to occur within their own world, the effect is caused in the outside world.

 

"to act on", in the case of affect, a verb with an object, according to the definition, means that the affected object is the one DIRECTLY affected. There is a separate verb for indirectly causing and effect on an object, which is, confusingly, effect (As in, to effect change) Affect is used for direct action on the object, Effect is used for indirect action. This is from the usage note from the links you conveniently provided.

As a verb affect1 means “to act on†or “to move†(His words affected the crowd so deeply that many wept); affect2 means “to pretend†or “to assume†(new students affecting a nonchalance they didn't feel). The verb effect means “to bring about, accomplishâ€: Her administration effected radical changes.

 

In their verb forms, affect is directly acting on [object]. Effect is indirectly acting on [object]. The Eelfinn can effect(v) change in the outside world, by affect(v) something in their own, which produces and effect(n) in the other world. Case in point, they effected (v) the outside world by affecting (v) Mat while he was in their world, producing the effect(n) of him appearing in Rhuidean, inside a noose. They could also, if they chose, effect (v) a change in the outside world, by affecting (v) Moiraine, who is in their world, in such a way that the effect (n) is her presence in Randland. After that, though, they could no longer affect (v) Moiraine directly, and thus they could not effect (v) any change that would cause the effect (n) of reclaiming her into their world. A definition is more than just a bald meaning, it includes usage. Affect is used only with direct objects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a bit of a tricky issue. Either the true price was the ability to spy on Mat, which would indicate the Eelfinn never intended for the hanging to kill Mat, or the price was Mat's life, and the ability to spy on him was "shipping and handling".

 

I believe that the "price" in the end, was access to his memories/sensations. Sending him back via hanging is evidence of their capricious nature. That capriciousness is the reason why everyone must be careful in bargaining with them, and why Moiraine would never make some of the vague requests that have been put forward in other theories.

 

She's Aes Sedai. It's a given that whatever she says to them will be vague in some way.

 

Some other points to consider.

 

Asmodean's reaction is indicative. He would not INSTANTLY fear Moiraine. Remember, he didn't know that she knew about the docks (giving her a reason not to move against him), and so he would assume that either 1) she didn't know about him, or 2) she did know, and had decided to leave him alone because he was leashed. Considering his lack of reaction to her, he seems to have assumed that she did not know about him. So, his reaction would be "You?! How?" not "You?! NO!" Also, anything Moiraine did with the Power would be felt by Aviendha, who was relatively close by (Asmodean had only taken one step through the doorway leading out of the area where she and Mat were talking). Also, speaking of literary clues, Asmodean was thinking of how he would enjoy it when each of the other Forsaken was killed. To have one pop up in front of him, right then, would certainly have elicited that reaction.

 

His reaction indicated that he knew that whoever he saw, they were there to KILL HIM.

 

I've discussed this at length, I don't know how many times.

 

His initial reaction to someone who he expected would kill him should have been to lash out in self defense. This is especially true after he had just been thinking that any Forsaken would kill him on sight. He was thinking about that possibility RIGHT THEN. He would not be stunned to inaction, because it's just been confirmed that he expects his receipt to come at any time.

 

The blood draining from his face could very well come from seeing someone he thought was dead. He then asks a question: "You?"

 

Now, he was just thinking about how the Forsaken would obviously want to kill him on sight, yet he seems surprised and asks the question as if he didn't expect that person to be there.

 

The only forsaken about to kill him that he should have been surprised to see was Lanfear, because she was supposed to be dead. Even then, he would not say something like "You?" If he saw Lanfear, he would not question why she was there or hesitate with who she was.

 

Moiriane appearing would startle him, make the blood drain from his face as if he were seeing a ghost. He would ask the question of "You?", realize that she was there with bad intentions and just before she zaps him have little time to consider her a threat and shout "No!" before she raises her hand and finishes.

 

 

Read RJ's quote a bit more carefully and consider how it applies to the reality of what is printed in the books.

 

Read the definitions of affect and effect, and consider which one he used. Is it that hard to consider the possibilities?

 

Read the definition of the word jerk, and consider the possibility that maybe you're acting like one.

 

The simple answer is; If they can put you there, they can take you back.

 

Thats just flat out not true. I can do lots of things to people that I can't undo. I can throw a rock off a bridge, but I can't draw it back to my hand.

 

Actually, you can if you tried. You could tie a string to the rock and pull it back out that way. If you have even better technology, you could put a tracking device on the rock and track it down the river. All it takes is intent, tools, planning and ingenuity. I wouldn't put it past the Eelfinn to possess such traits.

 

I can affect the rock by throwing it, causing the effect of the rock making the ripple, without me myself ever being in, or near the stream. I did not affect the stream, by I caused an EFFECT in the stream. All of the things having to do with Mat's return to Rhuidean are Effects, not the Eelfinn Affecting the outside world.

 

Are you okay? "Affect" is being used as an act, a transitive verb. There's nothing wrong with the way I've used the word.

 

af·fect 1 (-fkt) KEY

 

TRANSITIVE VERB:

af·fect·ed , af·fect·ing , af·fects

To have an influence on or effect a change in: Inflation affects the buying power of the dollar.

 

 

Again, where they bend the rules in affecting the outside world has to do with the price, not the gift. Mat was hung as a price.

 

Affect. Effect. Please learn English.

 

I'll thank you not to be so blatantly insulting. I know lots of bad English I could use in the case of someone being so rude. Instead, seeing as you are dead wrong, I'll let you try to pull your foot out of your mouth and see what effect that has on you as a deterrant to putting it there in the first place.

 

In the case of Moiraine, she is being held presumably as part of a price she must pay. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine that if the Eelfinn mean to take your freedom for a price, they will do so by what they see is their right.

 

 

I say they hold her because they see it as their right to hold door-melting vandalizers captive. And therefore, they wouldn't be obligated to give her anything.

 

Why not just kill her then and be done with it?

 

RJ doesn't set the scene up with Mat's experience, as well as both him and Moiraine going through the doorway in Tear, as a foreshadowing to nothing happening. Lanfear went through the doorway as well, and she technically went through it first, so the Eelfinn could well have blamed the doorway melting on her. Anyways, there is nothing that says the doorway was part of the treaty. Every mention of a treaty had only to do with the actually giving of gifts and the Aelfinn reading the truth, and the mention of fire, iron and music. No doorways mentioned. The Snakes and Foxes game...no doorways mentioned.

 

Your theory is a chair that doesn't stand up, so I suggest that you don't sit on it.

 

I think the meaning behind the statement translates more towards the Eelfinn not being able to affect the world directly while granting requests.

 

RJ didn't, and hasn't made that exception.

 

Why would he? He was just answering a question that he felt like answering at the time. He also didn't do so in the context of how it manipulates the storyline. He was just saying something general about the nature of the Eelfinn granting wishes.

 

In fact, he gave an example of them fulfilling a wish in the very quote, and it didn't make that exception. YOU are making that exception because you HAVE to in order to fit your theory. Thats called "changing the data to fit the hypothesis". Its bad science, and bad logic.

 

Actually, if you'd read more carefully he was talking about granting wishes. He was talking about the Eelfinn affecting the outside world when it comes to someone asking for something. The entire quote is in that context, of what a person asks of them.

 

The point I made was that his statement excludes what the Eelfinn are allowed to do in regards to them extracting payment for their services.

 

Mat's hanging more than suggests that these limitations aren't so strictly applied when it comes to a price paid. As Mat isn't being given anything beneficial, it doesn't matter if the price was his hanging or his collective memories. He was hung outside of their realm, rather deliberately and seemingly without the restriction of not being able to affect the outside world. He certainly didn't ask to be hung from Avendesora, so it is defintely not part of his requests.

 

You can work that logic backwards or forwards from there. The point is made and supported by the text and the quote.

 

I don't believe he was talking about their general ability to do things. If exacting a certain price from their clients, there may be fewer restrictions on them than when they are granting requests.

 

My above response applies verbatim.

 

Actually, it does not. You've missed the point by miles.

 

What is to say that the first deal made wasn't the Treaties?

 

It may have been. We just don't KNOW. And since this thread is about who killed Asmodean, and positing Moiraine as his killer depends on understanding how the Eelfinn work, and Jordan said he left us all the clues we need, having this necesaary bit of knowledge lacking is damaging to her case. The questions I am raising are for the purpose of showing how MANY different reasons there are that Moiraine could not kill Asmodean, given everything we know. I include Jordan's statement about having given us all the necessary clues in the sum of what we know. Therefore, if he has given us all the clues, and we don't have the clues we need to know that Moiraine could have done it, we have to conclude that she didn't. I keep raising these questions in an effort to demonstrate that we just don't know if she even COULD have, much less WOULD have, much less DID.

 

All of the clues involving the Eelfinn and Aelfinn were given before Fires of Heaven. The suggestion of their ability is all that is needed to piece together that Moiraine had the capability to kill Asmodean while dealing in their custody. Her trip through the Rings of Rhuidean. Her erratic behavior. The carefully planned scene at the docks. Her letter to Rand. Asmodean's POV reminding us of Lanfear's doom (hence Moiraine's apparent disappearance as well). All of it is there to see BEFORE Asmodean's death happens. It's a classic case of literary sleight of hand. Have the reader thinking of one person then slip a different person in through the other sleeve.

 

I admit my answers are speculation, and could be incorrect. I maintain, however, that they are reasonable and could also be true. It is this ambiguity in the case for Moiraine that makes it suspect. And the existence of a rock solid case for Graendal forces ME to reject Moiraine's suspect case in light of Mr. Jordan's statements on the subject.

 

Graendal's case hinges too much on clues given after the murder. Most of the details for Moriaine's case come before the murder quite naturally.

 

In Fires of Heaven, we barely know anything about Graendal. The only thing we know up until that point is that she is part of the plot to trap Rand in ILLIAN. Not Caemlyn. Everything about her is a question mark, throughout the book and leading up to the murder.

Why would she be hanging around Caemlyn for a long period of time when they expect the attack to be on Illian? Ravhin was caught totally by surprise by Rand's attack. Sammael was convinced Rand would attack Illian. How are we to come to the conclusion that Graendal is the genius of the group. Rahvin gave specific statements saying that he didn't want anyone hanging around his turf prior to the attack on Illian, so why would Graendal just be hanging around Caemlyn? If she was hanging around, why didn't she link with Ravhin and attack Rand? If she was too scared to act while she was there, why didn't she flee? If she fled, why would she come back just to kill Asmodean and risk herself even more?

 

You can't answer those questions with information from before the murder. Your character study is incomplete. Information on her whereabouts during the murder is incomplete. Confirmation of her knowledge of the surrounding circumstances and location of the target are incomplete.

 

Moiraine on the other hand...Her motive is clear and presented prior to the murder. She wants to eliminate the Shadow presence in Rand's path. That has been her motive since the first book.

 

Moiraine's capability is a given. She dusted off Be'lal, who was said to be a rival for Lews Therin in stength. Again, an event that took place prior to the murder. She even gave Aginor pause in the Eye of the World, and this was before she learned how to wield balefire.

 

Her means are intuitive. She disappeared through a doorway into a world where there are beings who grant wishes. Their powers and nature are described in some detail prior to Fires of Heaven.

 

It's all there. All before Asmodean's death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Fires of Heaven, we barely know anything about Graendal. The only thing we know up until that point is that she is part of the plot to trap Rand in ILLIAN. Not Caemlyn. Everything about her is a question mark, throughout the book and leading up to the murder.

Why would she be hanging around Caemlyn for a long period of time when they expect the attack to be on Illian? Ravhin was caught totally by surprise by Rand's attack. Sammael was convinced Rand would attack Illian. How are we to come to the conclusion that Graendal is the genius of the group. Rahvin gave specific statements saying that he didn't want anyone hanging around his turf prior to the attack on Illian, so why would Graendal just be hanging around Caemlyn? If she was hanging around, why didn't she link with Ravhin and attack Rand? If she was too scared to act while she was there, why didn't she flee? If she fled, why would she come back just to kill Asmodean and risk herself even more?

 

The Illian trap failed, what happened next is in the text.

 

Rahvin is the one who runs scared, not Graendal. Rahvin knew Rand was coming after him. That's why he ran home and set all his anti-male-channeler wards. There was no surprise. Maybe surprise that a REALLY pissed off Rand came after him, after all the lightning that toasted Mat and Avi (and Asmo, too) was meant for Rand. Hopefully we don't have to argue about this stuff.

 

Sammy's a chicken too, he didn't like the plan all along, being the bait, and even more, outside the link. He's not going anywhere, he's just happy to get his head off the chopping block. (Note who put his head out there to begin with)

 

What about the girls, then?

Lanfear went out to gather information, if Rand did not go to Illian, then where is he, what's he doing? Of course she runs into your gal Moiraine.

 

Just suppose for a second, suppose that Graendal is running this little axis of evil. I suppose this only because, well, she's still alive (not counting rebirths).

And the rest, well, they're all dead. Tough to be Nae'blis when you're dead.

Granted, there's not much info about her, but that's what we're stuck with. Just because the trap was in ILLIAN, doesn't mean she is magically trapped there, like others may or may not be magically trapped somewhere. You would have us believe that it is a bigger stretch for Graendal to leave Illian than for Moiraine to temporarily escape Finnland.

 

Now she's left with an empty trap, two male forsaken that have gone to ground because they're cowards, and Lanfear who left to gather intel but has not been heard from since... It is not a great leap to have her going about the same as Lanfear did, hearing about the great battle in Camelyn, and nosing about.

 

This trap is a key event that doesn't get a lot of play. There are 4 perps, and we know where 3 of them got off to. These 4 and Moggy, (we know where she is too) are the central dark characters in FOH.

It begins at the meeting in the prologue, continues in the next meeting where Nyn and Moggy are lurking about, and fizzles out at the end. But the point is Graendal is a Major Dark Character in FOH. But just because we know less of her than the others, does not make her insignificant. That is an assumption, although not altogether unfounded.

 

It's got some holes in it, but it's the best that a lot of us got. At the end of Chapter 51, Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin and Sammy are ready to spring their trap. By then end of Chapter 55, Lanfear and Rahvin are gone, so Graendal's axis has failed. No problem, she's 2 closer to being Nae'blis, she's still well hidden, and wait... who's that? Asmo, that traitor...(ZAP!) Hmm, now 3 closer to being Nae'blis, plus brownie points for killing the Traitor, now all she has to do is convince Sammy than Rand killed them all.. (does any of this sound familiar...)

 

I know I'm repeating myself, but there is nothing intuitive about Moiraine being the killer. Here's intuitive:

 

(A) Moiraine find out who Asmo is and toasts him. (on the spot, before her fated meeting with Lanfear. Most, if not all of us would find this intuitive, cause that's what Moiraine does, she kills Forsaken)

 

or

 

(B) Moiraine finds out who Asmo is, realizes he can do more good than harm, and leaves him be. (per her letter)

 

But the dozen-or-so twist and turns of logic just to give Moiraine a stance that is neither (A) nor (B) in order to identify her as the killer is NOT intuitive.

 

4 bad guys, 1 murder victim. 1 bad guy who can't be placed at the time of the murder. Now that seems intuitive to me...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, you will not be convinced, Jonn, and obviously, neither will I. I would like to apologize for being insulting, I don't like it when others make attacks personal, and I did, for which I do sincerely apologize.

 

I maintain, however, all the points that I made. There is a usage difference between affect and effect that makes RJ's statement both internally and externally applicable and coherent. The same would prevent the Eelfinn from reclaiming Moiraine forcibly once she had left their world. This is my opinion, until RJ explicitly states otherwise, because it seems to best fit all of the facts. To me.

 

In Fires of Heaven, we barely know anything about Graendal. The only thing we know up until that point is that she is part of the plot to trap Rand in ILLIAN. Not Caemlyn. Everything about her is a question mark, throughout the book and leading up to the murder.

 

We know that she is part of an alliance within the Forsaken that includes Rahvin, who rules Caemlyn. We know that as part of the trap, which is to be sprung in Illian, she is to link with Rahvin, who is in Caemlyn. We know that members of the cabal watch each other, for which she would have to be watching Caemlyn. We know that all the Forsaken can Travel, giving her at will access to Caemlyn. The meeting of the four involved in the cabal in the prologue to the Fires of Heaven takes place in Caemlyn, the only physical location we have seen Graendal in to that point.

 

 

 

Why would she be hanging around Caemlyn for a long period of time when they expect the attack to be on Illian? Ravhin was caught totally by surprise by Rand's attack. Sammael was convinced Rand would attack Illian. How are we to come to the conclusion that Graendal is the genius of the group. Rahvin gave specific statements saying that he didn't want anyone hanging around his turf prior to the attack on Illian, so why would Graendal just be hanging around Caemlyn? If she was hanging around, why didn't she link with Ravhin and attack Rand? If she was too scared to act while she was there, why didn't she flee? If she fled, why would she come back just to kill Asmodean and risk herself even more?

 

My "artistic exercise" in the following post addresses each of those questions.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5801

 

Moiraine's capability is a given. She dusted off Be'lal, who was said to be a rival for Lews Therin in stength. Again, an event that took place prior to the murder. She even gave Aginor pause in the Eye of the World, and this was before she learned how to wield balefire.

 

I find it hard to believe that you would contend that Moiraine is MORE capable than Graendal in this regard. That said, I have specifically stated in previous posts that, given the opportunity, Moiraine could easily dispatch Asmodean in his shielded state. But that is equally true of Graendal.

 

You can't answer those questions with information from before the murder. Your character study is incomplete. Information on her whereabouts during the murder is incomplete. Confirmation of her knowledge of the surrounding circumstances and location of the target are incomplete.

 

Technically, you can't say that the information in the text on Moiraine's whereabout is more complete. Neither of them is mentioned by name. You place her there as the extrapolation of cricumstances. I place Graendal there the same way. CONFIRMATION of Moiraine's knowledge of the surrounding circumstances is also incomplete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This quotes shorter ;)

Back to RJ's comment. I do believe the statement 'For example' date=' they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life...' quite clearly states a positive action by the Finns that one might say does 'affect'. Putting someone into another world, surly would have to be regarded as adding to that world. Which I would take to mean that they would also be able to subtract that person if he/she was still under the terms of the treaty.[/quote']

The Finn already have a door to any world: the Tower of Ghenjei. There's no need to give extra powers to them, since then you need reasons why they don't take part in the war against the shadow: according to Jordan they aren't that fond of the Dark One and presumably their world goes poof if the Dark One wins as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This quotes shorter ;)

 

Back to RJ's comment. I do believe the statement 'For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life...' quite clearly states a positive action by the Finns that one might say does 'affect'. Putting someone into another world, surly would have to be regarded as adding to that world. Which I would take to mean that they would also be able to subtract that person if he/she was still under the terms of the treaty.

 

The Finn already have a door to any world: the Tower of Ghenjei. There's no need to give extra powers to them, since then you need reasons why they don't take part in the war against the shadow: according to Jordan they aren't that fond of the Dark One and presumably their world goes poof if the Dark One wins as well.

 

Who is to say that they don't fight in the War, in their own way?

 

They are very different from humans. Moiraine, I think seems to know something about it. It was her that, if I remember correctly, remarked that they are so different from humans that the terms evil and good aren't even applicable in the sense that people mean them.

For people that strange, it's easy to misunderstand their motives in even dealing with the people outside their world.

 

About the doorways and the Tower of Ghengei. These entrances seem more designed to allow humans to enter their world, rather than the Finns using them to enter the human world.

 

Even Ogier leave their Stedding to do business with the outside world. There isn't a mention of the Aelfinn or Eelfinn doing much outside of their world or even desiring to leave their realm for any period of time. It doesn't necessarily mean that they cannot or will not. It just sems that they generally don't go out. If they do, it's never mentioned and you would think that places like Tear would have heard about it if some snakey peope just appeared in the middle of the Stone.

 

Same thing goes with the Eelfinn if they somehow appeared in the Waste.

 

With beings that are as hard to understand, but as powerful as these ones are, it's not really a good idea to count them out in their capabilities simply on the basis of how humans are limited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, you will not be convinced, Jonn, and obviously, neither will I. I would like to apologize for being insulting, I don't like it when others make attacks personal, and I did, for which I do sincerely apologize.

 

Look, I don't really say things to be insulting unless I feel I'm being insulted. If you say you didn't mean to be insulting then I'll believe you. Let's just clear that stuff out of there for now. 8)

 

I maintain, however, all the points that I made. There is a usage difference between affect and effect that makes RJ's statement both internally and externally applicable and coherent. The same would prevent the Eelfinn from reclaiming Moiraine forcibly once she had left their world. This is my opinion, until RJ explicitly states otherwise, because it seems to best fit all of the facts. To me.

 

I honestly don't know what the difference is here that you are getting at.

We're really delving into semantics here. Whether or not we are using the word effect or affect, the meaning is gernrally the same in its use.

 

We are talking about a cause and effect relationship here.

 

What someone or something does to change the environment, whether it be internally, on an emotional, perceptive level or externally, physically...that's what we are geting at here.

 

We are talking about the Eelfinn changing things, doing things in the human world and whether or not they can.

 

I say clearly and definitively that they can.

 

The quote RJ gave us was in reference to what the Eelfinn can do in regards to granting wishes.

 

This means, what they can do for people to give them what they ask for.

 

The quote does not apply to what the Eelfinn can do for themselves in the exchange.

 

The example of Mat hanging from Avendesora is a concrete example of this

 

In Fires of Heaven, we barely know anything about Graendal. The only thing we know up until that point is that she is part of the plot to trap Rand in ILLIAN. Not Caemlyn. Everything about her is a question mark, throughout the book and leading up to the murder.

 

We know that she is part of an alliance within the Forsaken that includes Rahvin, who rules Caemlyn. We know that as part of the trap, which is to be sprung in Illian, she is to link with Rahvin, who is in Caemlyn. We know that members of the cabal watch each other, for which she would have to be watching Caemlyn. We know that all the Forsaken can Travel, giving her at will access to Caemlyn. The meeting of the four involved in the cabal in the prologue to the Fires of Heaven takes place in Caemlyn, the only physical location we have seen Graendal in to that point.

 

That's all well and good, but Rahvin was caught by surprise and if we are to fgure on who killed Asmodean intuitively, it's a major detail to omit, confirmation of Graendal's presence in Caemlyn either before or after Rand's attack on the palace.

 

Why would she be hanging around Caemlyn for a long period of time when they expect the attack to be on Illian? Ravhin was caught totally by surprise by Rand's attack. Sammael was convinced Rand would attack Illian. How are we to come to the conclusion that Graendal is the genius of the group. Rahvin gave specific statements saying that he didn't want anyone hanging around his turf prior to the attack on Illian, so why would Graendal just be hanging around Caemlyn? If she was hanging around, why didn't she link with Ravhin and attack Rand? If she was too scared to act while she was there, why didn't she flee? If she fled, why would she come back just to kill Asmodean and risk herself even more?

 

My "artistic exercise" in the following post addresses each of those questions.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5801

 

Again, the ommission of any mention or confirmation of Graendal's presence works against her in a big way. If it were so simple, why do we need to go back ourselves and piece together the scene? What's the purpose of withholding the information? Ther eis none other than the ridiculous notion that some want to sell that RJ just likes to mess with us.

 

That is something that drives me nuts. It serves no purpose, but a selfish one and it doesn;t help the story at all. If that were the truth it is a rather cheap gimmick that I have no use for as a reader or a fan.

 

Moiraine's capability is a given. She dusted off Be'lal, who was said to be a rival for Lews Therin in stength. Again, an event that took place prior to the murder. She even gave Aginor pause in the Eye of the World, and this was before she learned how to wield balefire.

 

I find it hard to believe that you would contend that Moiraine is MORE capable than Graendal in this regard. That said, I have specifically stated in previous posts that, given the opportunity, Moiraine could easily dispatch Asmodean in his shielded state. But that is equally true of Graendal.

 

A lot of Moriaine's danger comes from her opponents underestimating her or outright misreading her. Asmodean's apparent confusion over her brief reappearance would serve well to catch him off guard and make him question first rather than strike at her on instinct.

 

Facing a Forsaken that he recognises by sight would actually give him a chance to react and defend himself. He knows that if he sees an enemy, he must react or die. He survived the war of power and gave Rand all he could handle and survived a fight with the Dragon Reborn because of his abilities and instincts. I wouldn't underestimate even a weakened Asmodean for a second. Neither would Moiraine. She knows all about the surprise of the underdog.

 

You can't answer those questions with information from before the murder. Your character study is incomplete. Information on her whereabouts during the murder is incomplete. Confirmation of her knowledge of the surrounding circumstances and location of the target are incomplete.

 

Technically, you can't say that the information in the text on Moiraine's whereabout is more complete. Neither of them is mentioned by name. You place her there as the extrapolation of cricumstances. I place Graendal there the same way. CONFIRMATION of Moiraine's knowledge of the surrounding circumstances is also incomplete.

 

It is reasonable given what we are in the timeline. All we need to know about Moiraine is in the books before Asmodean bites the big one.

 

All the reasoning to confirm Graendal's involvement is clued in and dependant upon information after the event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Facing a Forsaken that he recognises by sight would actually give him a chance to react and defend himself. He knows that if he sees an enemy, he must react or die. He survived the war of power and gave Rand all he could handle and survived a fight with the Dragon Reborn because of his abilities and instincts. I wouldn't underestimate even a weakened Asmodean for a second. Neither would Moiraine. She knows all about the surprise of the underdog.

 

There's nothing to back this statement up in the text. Against any heavyweight channeler, all evidence in the text points to Asmo being toast. His own POV essentially tells us as much. He is clinging to the root sticking out of the cliff, and he is at Rand's side because it is the safest possible place for him.

 

The guy can barely float a chalice across a room, and you make him out to be something to be reckoned with. Reading your posts, you would have us believe a shielded Asmo as this "Great threat to Light" that only Moiraine could wish herself out of Finnland to vanquish.

 

You want threats to the Light? Look to the surviving Forsaken. A shielded forsaken composer and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could Moiraine really have killed Asmodean?

 

We know the 3rd oath as the following:

 

"Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister."

 

If Moiraine used the Finns to magically appear, she would likely not feel like her life was endangered, especially knowing how that Asmodean is weak after his shielding by Lanfear.

 

When the Three Oaths were created, the Forsaken were long sealed in Shayol Ghul, and the problems facing the Aes Sedai were Trollocs and Shades. They would likely be classified as Shadowspawn as they were created by the Forsaken/DO to do evil, and are unnatural creatures.

 

Can we really classify a shielded former-Forsaken who is helping the Dragon Reborn as a Shadowspawn? It's a long stretch to justify it.

 

Look at when Lanfear and Rand were fighting. Why did Moiraine jump Lanfear and push her into the ter'angreal. Why not just balefire her out of existance? Likely because Lanfear doesn't (in Moiraine's mind) fit the definition of a Shadowspawn and her life not being in danger (Lanfear wasn't aware of Moiraine, and Moiraine knew this) she could not attack Lanfear with the power.

 

If she could not attack Lanfear, how could she attack Asmodean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Facing a Forsaken that he recognises by sight would actually give him a chance to react and defend himself. He knows that if he sees an enemy, he must react or die. He survived the war of power and gave Rand all he could handle and survived a fight with the Dragon Reborn because of his abilities and instincts. I wouldn't underestimate even a weakened Asmodean for a second. Neither would Moiraine. She knows all about the surprise of the underdog.

 

There's nothing to back this statement up in the text. Against any heavyweight channeler, all evidence in the text points to Asmo being toast. His own POV essentially tells us as much. He is clinging to the root sticking out of the cliff, and he is at Rand's side because it is the safest possible place for him

The guy can barely float a chalice across a room, and you make him out to be something to be reckoned with. Reading your posts, you would have us believe a shielded Asmo as this "Great threat to Light" that only Moiraine could wish herself out of Finnland to vanquish.

 

You want threats to the Light? Look to the surviving Forsaken. A shielded forsaken composer and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

 

 

What Starbucks are you going to? Only costs a buck 50 to get a cup of coffee where I'm from.

 

Anyhow. During the battle for Caemlyn, Asmodean was hardly helpless. Rand remarks about it his POV. The man can face trollocs with no real trouble at medium range, and Rand pointed out that most of the fighting Asmodean was doing was probably not with the sword.

 

When he fought Rand in the skimming planes and in Rhuidean, he was no slouch. Rand had to use his angreal to tip the scales and overpower Asmodean. Still, the composer managed to survive.

 

Floating the chalice across the room uses which of the five powers? Air, right?

 

Judging by the battles with Rand and the general knowledge of men who can channel, it's safe to say that Asmodean's preferred weaves deal with Earth and Fire.

 

In the chalice passage as well, Rand remarks in his POV that he wonders how much Asmodean could be holding back, even with the shield in place. Who is to say that the shield Lanfear put on him isn't dissipating more quickly than expected?

 

Take all of these factors into play and you really are still dealing with a fairly dangerous man.

 

Cyndane used a very miniscule flow of fire to try to burn a hole through Alivia.

Asmodean himself used a minor weave against Rand in the fog of Rhuidean that almost took his head off.

 

It's not always the strength that determines the outcome of a battle. It's also skill and deception that can win or at least prove very dangerous to the unwary.

 

Seldy: Moiraine explains early on in the series that some darkfriends are so deeply given to the Shadow that they are pretty much like Shadowspawn to an Aes Sedai. One of the Forsaken is definitely worse than a darkfriend and actually way more dangerous than any shadowspawn. Moiraine had no problem confronting Be'lal and destroying him. Why would it be different with Asmodean?

 

Also, Moiraine doesn't know specifically about Asmodean's shield, so to her, he would be just about as dangerous as any Forsaken at full strength.

 

And about Asmodean not being the biggest threat...This is a guy who had his own mother stilled and did murder and who knows how many terrible things just to keep himeself alive. His front is a musical composer, and sort of a defenseless artists. We know better, or at least should. This guy would sell Rand out in a heartbeat if he were promised forgivenes or another chance with the Shadow.

Also, what are the ramifications if people found out who Jasin Natael really is? The Dragon reborn's teacher and confidant is one of the Forsaken? That's a disaster that would be as bad as anything I can think of happening, and it is all too possible if the man remained alive and connected to Rand at the hip. It also provides leverage for the remaining Forsaken agaist Rand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, what are the ramifications if people found out who Jasin Natael really is? The Dragon reborn's teacher and confidant is one of the Forsaken? That's a disaster that would be as bad as anything I can think of happening, and it is all too possible if the man remained alive and connected to Rand at the hip. It also provides leverage for the remaining Forsaken agaist Rand.

 

very good point, Jonn.

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...