one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Placing Moiraine in Caemlyn is no more conveluted than trying to place Graendal there. Rahvin did not allow Graendal to come to Caemlyn. He made it perfectly clear in the initial meeting that the other Foresaken they were not welcome to visit. That is why all future planning sessions occurred in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

As Graendal did not have opportunity, she could not have killed Asmodean.

 

1) If she was in Caemlyn to aid in the ambush, why did she not participate. Rand was so absorbed in Rahvin that he never would have realized she was there until too late. Furthermore, the bait was in Illian not Caemlyn.

 

2) She would not have come looking for anything left over by Rahvin. She did that in Illian because she knew that Sammael had found something. He flaunted that. There was nothing to make her even suspect that Rahvin had anything. She only takes calculated risks. With no real likelyhood of gain, she wouldn't have risked her life.

[Cybertrolloc]

What I mainly don't like is giving the Foxes the power to find anyone and either drag them into their realm or send someone to a specific location and then haul them back. They can do this, yet it's impossible that they can walk out the door and stick Mat in Avendesora?

 

The docks. Why do they go to the docks? Moiraine says we have to go to the docks. It's inevitable that Lanfear is going to be pissed and decide to start nuking stuff (unless Moiraine were to prevent Rand and Avienda getting together). What part does anyone besides Rand, Lanfear, Moiraine play? Not much, Egwene and Avienda get tortured, everyone else is either blown up by Lanfear or behind the shield Rand throws up. I can't see taking out Asmo beforehand as affecting this scene much at all, but wouldn't bank on that.

 

Some fashion of killing Asmo in Finnland could fit with RJ's how and why are important for why the Dark One can't raise Asmo, but Moiraine and Lanfear know balefire which is good enough on its own (unless Belal/Darth Maul comes back). Moiraine would probably use balefire (though depending on when she eavesdrops on Rand and Asmo, she probably knows he's shielded).

 

I find it difficult to believe the Eels are so blase about their door being destroyed: They display the same traits as the Aels in regard to savoring whatever from people that visit them.

 

Graendal in Caemlyn isn't convoluted on it's own. She can travel, has little to fear from anyone anywhere, has traveled there before and we know little about what she did that day except plan to meet with Moggy later. I'm not down with Graendal specifically coming to Caemlyn to kill Asmo, just bumping into him, taunting him with her real appearence and blasting him. We do know that Graendal handles surprise well from the Shadar Haran/Cyndane/Moggy scene later, it's the kill instantly I'm not too down with for Graendal. But I don't have a better explanation.

[Guest Egwene]

I agree that Moiraine is more likely to kill Asmodean after the scene on the docks, because he was in it, and she would not dare tamper with it. I just don't think it was in the top three on her list of things to do. If anything, she would have NEEDED to be WITH Rand, to help him, if not guide him. Thats a catch .22 against her. If she wanted to guide him, being with him would be more important than killing Asmodean. And if she had REALLY decided not to guide him, then killing a teacher he has leashed doesn't fit.

 

 

Would someone, just once, please acknowledge the fact that NEVER, NEVER... have I said Moiraine INTENDED to kill Asmo. However, being put behind that door by the Foxes, she did... because a) the reason for not killing him had gone and b) she must assume that as this is what the Foxes are giving her in answer to her wish/need, that it is, what will fullfill that wish/need.

 

NO Motive.. she asked to fight the shadow... she got given Asmo. She did NOT ask for Asmo. *feels exasperated*. Could all of you who keep refering to this please quote, rather than changing the words?

 

Robert Alex, yes, the Foxes wouldn't be too happy with the melted doorway... but I believe there are indications that the treaty is far more important to them. When the trio visits the Snakes... they just about cause the place to collapse... but they still get their answers. Mat talks to his Foxes guide, is rude, but gets no rebuttal... the only thing that these guys seem interested in are the three wishes/needs. Whilst I feel sure that it affected their world, I am equally sure that they would still have pursued the treaty. (by the way a huge proportion of these 100 pages is Graendal supporters desperately trying to make their case... so what bearing this has on which theory is convoluted, I am not quite sure).

 

Cybertrolloc, I assume we agree that Moiraine saw these visions when she went through the rings in Rhuidean. The likely hood, based on PoV's about them, is that she was shown many, many different possibilities. It seems not unreasonable to assume that any vision of her killing Asmo before the scene at the docks ended in tragedy. Maybe he has taught something to Rand since Moiraine learned of his identity, that has or will become vital to the story.

.

[Guest Majsju]

NO Motive.. she asked to fight the shadow... she got given Asmo.

 

She asked to fight the shadow, and got the One forsaken whose link to the shadow had been cut?

 

And asking to "fight the shadow" seems like such a moronic idea that there is no way Moiraine would even consider it.

"Hey guys, I want to fight the shadow"

"Done"

*poof!*

Oops, Moiraine finds herself in the Pit of Doom.

 

Bad idea.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Cybertrolloc: The docks. Why do they go to the docks? Moiraine says we have to go to the docks. It's inevitable that Lanfear is going to be pissed and decide to start nuking stuff (unless Moiraine were to prevent Rand and Avienda getting together). What part does anyone besides Rand, Lanfear, Moiraine play? Not much, Egwene and Avienda get tortured, everyone else is either blown up by Lanfear or behind the shield Rand throws up. I can't see taking out Asmo beforehand as affecting this scene much at all, but wouldn't bank on that.

 

You fail to realize that Asmodean did play a part at the docks. A potentially crucial one at that.

 

"It will be safe here," Moiraine murmured. Lifting her skirts gracefully, she started up the line of wagons. Lan heeled her, a half-tame wolf, the cloak hanging down his back all disturbing ripples of color and nothingness.

 

Rand glared. "Did she tell you what it was Egwene?"

 

"Just you had to see something. That you had to come here, anyway."

 

"You must trust Aes Sedai," Aviendha said, almost as levelly, but with a hit of doubt. Mat snorted.

 

"Well, I mean to dind out now. Natael, go tell Bael I'll be with him in --"

The Fires of Heaven

Asmodean was directly addressed by Rand in the discussion. Rand's attention was fixed on him at the precise time that Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon apart. That could very well have been what prevented Rand from trying to provide Moiraine the protection she was afraid of.

[Guest Majsju]

The Fires of Heaven

Asmodean was directly addressed by Rand in the discussion. Rand's attention was fixed on him at the precise time that Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon apart. That could very well have been what prevented Rand from trying to provide Moiraine the protection she was afraid of.

 

Please look at the context. Yes, Rand is addressing Asmo. Why is he doing it? because Rand wants a message sent to Bael. If Asmo hadn't been there, Rand would have been addressing someone else, with the same fixed attention on that person.

[Guest Egwene]

Majsju: And asking to "fight the shadow" seems like such a moronic idea that there is no way Moiraine would even consider it.

"Hey guys, I want to fight the shadow"

"Done"

*poof!*

Oops, Moiraine finds herself in the Pit of Doom.

 

Bad idea.

 

Maj... I do believe my scenario was not quite as flippant. Are you saying that Moiraine has not repeatedly told people that her one driving ambition is to 'fight the shadow and see the Dragon reach the last battle'???? You must have a very different edition from the one I have.

.

[Rumor]

Someone may very well have said this already...I didn't actually read all 105 pages of this, but I have read a lot of other summaries regarding Asmodean's death...anyway, I just thought I'd put out a possible other reason it is not Moiraine. From Mat's experience through the door, I did not get the impression that either side did anything until the bargain was made and fulfilled. After all, Mat did not get any of his side of the bargain until he had fulfilled theirs (in a way). Unless Moiraine's agreed to be trapped in the Tower of Ghenjei(sp?) as "payment", I cannot see how her bargain has been completed and so I really can't see how she could have carried it out, even if they would have helped her kill Asmodean...Besides that, if she asked, in some manner, to be able to fight the Shadow, again my impression from Mat's experience is that their response would not be something so specific...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert Alex, yes, the Foxes wouldn't be too happy with the melted doorway... but I believe there are indications that the treaty is far more important to them. When the trio visits the Snakes... they just about cause the place to collapse... but they still get their answers. Mat talks to his Foxes guide, is rude, but gets no rebuttal... the only thing that these guys seem interested in are the three wishes/needs. Whilst I feel sure that it affected their world, I am equally sure that they would still have pursued the treaty. (by the way a huge proportion of these 100 pages is Graendal supporters desperately trying to make their case... so what bearing this has on which theory is convoluted, I am not quite sure).

 

You're right, they did put up with quite a bit in those episodes. They also hurried them along, to get them out, so that they wouldn't SEVER THE CONNECTION. Which is precisely what Moiraine was involved in. The treaty is BASED on the connection, without a connection, how can there be a treaty?

 

And the volume of Graendal supporters that I've seen simply repeat the obvious facts over and over (I know I've reiterated mine several times, and I've only been a member for, oh, a week) and then demonstrate why it can't be Moiraine. Which takes alot longer. Because of how many different points have to be shown as impossible. Because of how convoluted the argument is. For your convenience, I summarized the Graendal case in three statements above, each a maximum of two sentences long. In fact, it was shorter than this explanation of why It is so short. At least in the number of sentences involved.

 

Would someone, just once, please acknowledge the fact that NEVER, NEVER... have I said Moiraine INTENDED to kill Asmo.

 

I hereby formally acknowledge that fact. However, Maj's post is to the point about your theory, that she just asked "Can I fight the shadow, please?" and got poofed in front of Asmodean. If the Eelfinn knew enough to know where Asmodean was, they would have to know that he had thrown in completely with Rand, and was no longer linked to or workingfor the Shadow. And yes, he was still a mean, nasty person, so don't think I'm saying he "repented" or anything. But functionally, he was no longer working for the Shadow, and never would again! He had thrown in totally with Rand. And IF Moiraine (mistress of Aes Sedai wordplay, remember) had been idiotic enough to make such an open-ended, unspecific request, then I'll be buried in the Can Breat! AND she probably would have been poofed into the Pit, or some other deadly situation.

 

Somehow people who hold out Moiraine as the killer seem to think that when I say she was not, I'm saying she was stupid or something. I'm saying Moiraine is too SMART to WANT to kill Asmodean. She surely figured out what he was there for, since she as much as said it in her letter. AND she knew Rand well enough to know he wasn't contemplating joining the Shadow, so she knew he had Asmodean leashed. She hadn't spouted that "I won't let the Shadow have you" blather in books. She ended her letter with "You will do well." I say she had enough confidence in Rand's abilities by that point, that she trusted him to HANDLE Asmodean. Which removes her motive, for those OTHER than Egwene (of the postings, not the books) who say she wanted to kill Asmodean.

 

And Egwene .... doesn't making it an unintentional murder add a convolution?

[Guest cwestervelt]

cwestervelt:

Asmodean was directly addressed by Rand in the discussion. Rand's attention was fixed on him at the precise time that Lanfear blew Kadere's wagon apart. That could very well have been what prevented Rand from trying to provide Moiraine the protection she was afraid of.

 

Majsju: Please look at the context. Yes, Rand is addressing Asmo. Why is he doing it? because Rand wants a message sent to Bael. If Asmo hadn't been there, Rand would have been addressing someone else, with the same fixed attention on that person.

 

I'm not disregarding the context. Disregarding the context would be saying that Asmodean didn't have any part in what happened at the docks. Asmodean, as much as Mat, Aviendha and Egwene had to be present. Cybertrolloc claims that, since Egwene and Aviendha simply got tortured by Lanfear, only Rand, Moiraine and Lanfear played any significant part. I'm showing how that is wrong. Mat, Aviendha, Egwene and Asmodean were all there and part of the discussion that kept Rand from being right with Moiraine when Lanfear struck. A discussion that maybe had to occur so Rand would be distracted, depriving him of the time needed to attempt to protect Moiraine.

 

We don't know how that discussion would have turned out had Asmodean not been present. Maybe the discussion would have occurred, maybe it wouldn't. Maybe Rand would have sent someone to Bael before leaving the Sun Palace instead of waiting figuring he could send Asmodean later if the circumstances required it. We don't know what would have happened, only what did. Moiraine, on the other hand, knew each possibility that could have happened. She knew who had to present for any chance at things going right, and that included Asmodean. Using the "change the past to alter the present idea" we get that Moiraine had seen the "future", and thus heeded the warning not to change the "present".

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree that IF Moiraine wanted to kill Asmodean, she wouldn't have dared to do so before the docks, because every part of that scene COULD have been vital, and she had no way of knowing if killing him would interfere, and she wasn't going to take the chance.

 

That said, I think by the time of the docks incident, she had, reluctantly, concluded that Rand was gaining enough from a teacher, and had him sufficiently leashed, that she did not want to kill him.

[Guest Egwene]

Thank you Robert Alex for the acknowledgement that I do not believe she intended to kill Asmo (i.e. she did not intentionally state such a wish).

 

Your theory is shorter... but you stated yourself that you still had to answer a couple of questions on Graendal... so your theory is not complete and as such the whole 'convoluted' business is pointless. Nervertheless, if you come up with something that takes a bit of explaining... well, I don't think that is what matters. What matters is if it is plausible.

 

I can go from London to Paris many different routes. How can you say I didn't get to Paris because I told you I took a longer route. What matters is that the route connects London and Paris.

 

Maj's post was not to the point. Where the Foxes are concerned, what you say matters. So if you want to go about saying there is no way that anything Moiraine could have said could have had the result that they interpreted it as Asmodean... well... you can stick to that... but it does not seem like a logical argument to me.

 

You mention they would have known about him throwing in his lot with Rand... only moments before he dies, he ponders if he is now free of the DO. He calls him the 'Great Lord'despite al'Thor...calls that proof enough that he was himself. You call that no longer linked to the Shadow?

 

Why do you call Moirane idiotic for making what you call an unspecific request? You can only make a specific request if you know the answer you are after. She could have asked for a computer... if she knew a computer existed. Her questions in the Stone would specifically have been fairly general so as to not pre-determine the answer.

 

Same with any need. If she made it very specific, she would limit it to her own knowledge. Her overriding thought would have been that her wishes must not have a negative effect on her primary objective. Thus stating her need to achieve the primary objective, should mean that whatever the outcome it will be positively in favour of what she wants to achieve.

 

In real life, a planned murder takes forever (I started a list of what's involved...it's too long to quote) an unintended murder happens to happen. Which one is the convoluted one?

 

All it takes is for the unfortunate victim to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. All it takes is for him to jump out in front of someones's car. Didn't RJ call Asmo 'roadkill'?

 

Rumor, I am assuming Moiraine made all three wishes before the incident with Asmo. And yes, having a letter from her that indicates she knows a possible way of being rescued, obviously she would state a need towards achieving that... her final wish, I am guessing.

 

And wish no 2... hmmm... I don't think she liked Lanfear very much. 'Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away'... hopefully this indicates that Moiraine has the upper hand as they are going through. Maybe even knocked out Lanfear. From the way the trio enteredand left the Snakes in the Stone, I am deducting that once people enter the land of the the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, they are seperated from each other. Moiraine knew what was about to happen... she should have made use of that. Wish no 2... I want the woman that came in with me dead!

 

:D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Your theory is shorter... but you stated yourself that you still had to answer a couple of questions on Graendal... so

 

I honestly don't recall what those are, but if you would remind me I'll address them. I've researched this topic in the course of arguing it, so I may have found my own answer by now, and thus, put the question out of my mind.

 

the whole 'convoluted' business is pointless

 

Actually, "convoluted" is as close to an antonym of "intuitive" as you can get. But you're right, that the merits (or lack) of an argument should not be based on that alone.

 

You mention they would have known about him throwing in his lot with Rand... only moments before he dies, he ponders if he is now free of the DO. He calls him the 'Great Lord'despite al'Thor...calls that proof enough that he was himself. You call that no longer linked to the Shadow?

 

He wasn't pondering if he was free of the Dark One. He was pondering if it made him a new man. He calls the Dark One "Great Lord" in his head because he believes Rand will lose. But despite that, he is "clinging to that tuft of grass" or whatever it was in that story he told. Rand is that little plant.

 

By linked to the Shadow, I meant attached to the Dark One by those "blacks wires" that Rand severed in Rhuidean. He was no longer linked in that way.

 

 

Why do you call Moirane idiotic for making what you call an unspecific request? You can only make a specific request if you know the answer you are after. She could have asked for a computer... if she knew a computer existed. Her questions in the Stone would specifically have been fairly general so as to not pre-determine the answer.

 

Moiraine, if she knew anything about the Eelfinn, knew of their duplicitous nature. As such, she would have been very careful to make requests that were not subject to much "interpretation". As a mistress of Aes Sedai wordplay, not to mention Daes Dae'mar, she would have been well able to do this. The likelihood of her making so vague a request as to be allowed to "fight the Shadow" is SO out of character that I can't fathom it as remotely plausible. Making requests is fundamentally different than asking questions. Asking questions must be approached in a broad way because you don't know the answer. Making a request, you have to ask for something specific, because if you don't, it's much more likely you'll get something you don't want, than being surprised by something you do. Moiraine knew that.

 

 

 

Which one is the convoluted one?

 

The one that takes alot longer to explain. Planned murders don't have to be convoluted if you have the abilities that Graendal has. Travel in (if you're not already there), stop his heart with the Power, grab the body, and Travel out. For that matter, according to my theory, her "plan" couldn't be more than a few hours in the making, she leaped on a suddenly available opportunity.

 

All it takes is for the unfortunate victim to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. All it takes is for him to jump out in front of someones's car. Didn't RJ call Asmo 'roadkill'?

 

 

Thats such a ridiculous connection to make ... I don't know what else to say. It interesting though that you will latch on to any RJ quote that supports your theory, but explain away any that doesn't.

 

Rumor, I am assuming Moiraine made all three wishes before the incident with Asmo. And yes, having a letter from her that indicates she knows a possible way of being rescued, obviously she would state a need towards achieving that... her final wish, I am guessing.

 

If she did make all her wishes first, how did they get her back? Unless you claim she travelled all the way to the Tower of Ghenji and stuck herself back in ... and how are the Eelfinn helping her be rescued? She wrote the letter before she went into the gate, and all but told the boys "Bring as much cheating equipment as you can, cause you're gonna need it."

 

Using a request to off Lanfear makes the most sense of any of those, but I still think you're underestimating the signifigance of destroying the door on the way in. A connection is the basis of any treaty, and severing a connection always vilates that treaty.

[Cybertrolloc]

A connection is the basis of any treaty' date=' and severing a connection always vilates that treaty.[/quote']

We don't know the basis of the Treaty between whomever and the Finn (whether both have the same treaty or not). The doorways may not be involved, there may be others and so forth...but from what we do see of the Finn through Mat, they haven't had visitors for some time (the one in Tear hadn't been used since it went into the vaults in the Stone hundreds of years ago, and the Fox door probably not since AoL).

 

Asmo's death doesn't strike me as planned. If he died in his room or even someplace he would be known to be, sure. Yes, a Forsaken killer could slap a tracing weave on him whenever, but in the Forsaken powwows of FoH they were dismissive of what help Asmo would be to Rand (Sammael changes his tune later). It's why I don't like Graendal's Favorite's scenario.

 

Homework: reread Moiraine's PoV at the docks (and Lanfear blasting everyone--that's what a Forsaken can do when they feel like it).

[Guest Majsju]

Majsju: And asking to "fight the shadow" seems like such a moronic idea that there is no way Moiraine would even consider it.

"Hey guys, I want to fight the shadow"

"Done"

*poof!*

Oops, Moiraine finds herself in the Pit of Doom.

 

Bad idea.

 

Maj... I do believe my scenario was not quite as flippant. Are you saying that Moiraine has not repeatedly told people that her one driving ambition is to 'fight the shadow and see the Dragon reach the last battle'???? You must have a very different edition from the one I have.

.

 

On the contrary, Moiraine is dead set on aiding Rand, and on the battle against the shadow in general. And that is why she would never do something as irresponsible as making that wish, or any similar wish. IF she had made that wish, she must have been aware that pretty much anything could happen, and she might have caused a disaster.

 

IF Moiraine was actually allowed to make any wishes, which is doubtful for obvious reasons, she would have narrowed down the room for interpretation as much as possible, to eliminate the risk of unforseeable consequences.

 

"I wish to fight the shadow yadayadayada" is about as far from narrowed down as you can possibly come. Perhaps Mat would have blurted out something like that, but not Moiraine.

[Guest Egwene]

My apologies, Robert Alex, the bit I was thinking of, must have been these points made by CW to which I did not see you reply... (made me smile that you too are finding more answers for your theory... I feel exactly the same about mine *g*)

 

Placing Moiraine in Caemlyn is no more conveluted than trying to place Graendal there. Rahvin did not allow Graendal to come to Caemlyn. He made it perfectly clear in the initial meeting that the other Foresaken they were not welcome to visit. That is why all future planning sessions occurred in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

As Graendal did not have opportunity, she could not have killed Asmodean.

 

1) If she was in Caemlyn to aid in the ambush, why did she not participate. Rand was so absorbed in Rahvin that he never would have realized she was there until too late. Furthermore, the bait was in Illian not Caemlyn.

 

2) She would not have come looking for anything left over by Rahvin. She did that in Illian because she knew that Sammael had found something. He flaunted that. There was nothing to make her even suspect that Rahvin had anything. She only takes calculated risks. With no real likelyhood of gain, she wouldn't have risked her life.

 

It gets a bit confusing after a while as to who said what. Same as you seem to confuse me with people discarding what RJ has said. I am quite happy that what he says fits my theory. I have questioned just how accurate his 'intuitive' clue is, purely because in his own case the answer is obviously based on knowledge, rather than intuition. However, that consideration effects every theory and was made by me as a general observation, not to support any one theory.

 

Hmm... appreciate the missing 'black wires', but Moiraine would not have known anything about that and as I am certain Asmo was still a Darkfriend at the very least,... he still qualifies as, from knowledge sofar, the closest 'shadow being' in Rand's vacinity.

 

How did she get back? She never left. At the time of my first read, I remember being struck that the actual door that Asmo goes through is described. 'he pulled open a small door'.... it struck me as odd at the time. My theory is that the Foxes created a doorway to their realm in the room and Asmo stepped right into Finnland at which point he got balefired by Moiraine.

 

Robert Alex, Maj... talking about The Eelfinns duplicitous nature... Mat got his wishes granted. That he found himself hanging from a tree was a consequence of not having negotiated the price first. As you quite rightly said, Moiraine with all her Aes Sedai and Daes Dae'mar training would have preceded with extreme caution and not fallen into that same trap. Stating my proposed wish (wich is not actually that vague), should give her an advantage in the battle against the shadow. An advantage, which she might not have otherwise been in a position to gain. There is nothing to suggest that what the Foxes grant causes a disaster. Everything they gave Mat has been exactly what he asked for, and even if it might not have been what he intended it to be, it has been useful and not caused him a disaster.

 

There is nothig to suggest that the doorframes are part of the treaty and whilst destroying one is going to cause upset, the Foxes are too desperate for the verbal exchange to deprive themselves of it by throwing a temper tantrum and denying themselves that which they are after.

 

The question they ask Moiraine is : what is your need?

 

Moiraine's need is to fight the shadow. Her answer is going to be a request that if granted is going to futher her cause in that direction. Do you think she said ' I need a bath'? No, exactly. What do you see her asking for that would be more likely than what I have proposed?

.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We don't know the basis of the Treaty between whomever and the Finn (whether both have the same treaty or not). The doorways may not be involved, there may be others and so forth...but from what we do see of the Finn through Mat, they haven't had visitors for some time (the one in Tear hadn't been used since it went into the vaults in the Stone hundreds of years ago, and the Fox door probably not since AoL).

 

Actually, we do have a god idea, since Mat asked in the Stone of Tear. Moiraine responded, "Sensations, emotions, experiences. They rummage through them; you can feel them doing it, making your skin crawl." Now, how can they get any sensations, if there is no door for people to come in through? Mat speculates at some length in multiple POV's about the Eelfinn making a link to him, to get his memories, and that that is how they got the memories to give him in the first place.

 

How do people get into the Aelfinn and Eelfinn's world? Two ways, through the Tower of Ghenjei and through the pair of ter'angreal. Ter'angreal have to be deliberately constructed for a purpose. I believe their purpose was to form the entryways that fell under the treaty. You come in through the ter'angreal, not breaking the treaties other provisions (light sources, music, iron) and you get what you came for. But without the entryway, the treaty is invalid. You go back to just the Tower of Ghenjei, and thats the entryway for cheaters. The "no holds barred, the only rules are what you can manage to do" entryway.

 

There is no ironclad proof that this is the nature of the treaty. I admit that, and there will not be such proof, until or unless RJ provides us with a copy, or an explanation (which will hopefully come with Moiraine's rescue.) But what I have just proposed is both logical, and plausible. It is also supported, although not proven, by the character's experiences in the text. Until proven otherwise, it is at least as valid to suppose that neither Moiraine nor Lanfear got three requests, as it is to assume that they did. And since that question is still way up in the air, using that assumption for the basis of Moiraine's candidacy as "Asmo-killer" weakens the entire case. In combination with the ease with which Graendal could have done it, and RJ's "intuitively obvious" statement, it weakens her case considerably.

 

Asmo's death doesn't strike me as planned. If he died in his room or even someplace he would be known to be, sure. Yes, a Forsaken killer could slap a tracing weave on him whenever, but in the Forsaken powwows of FoH they were dismissive of what help Asmo would be to Rand (Sammael changes his tune later). It's why I don't like Graendal's Favorite's scenario.

 

All things being equal, it is just as reasonable to suppose that Graendal killed him on the spur of the moment, as to suppose anyone else did. Since all other things are NOT equal, it is more reasonable to suppose that Graendal did it, even on the spur of the moment. I've never said it had to be planned long in advance. In fact, I said in my very last post, "For that matter, according to my theory, her [Graendal's] "plan" couldn't be more than a few hours in the making, she leaped on a suddenly available opportunity."

 

Homework: reread Moiraine's PoV at the docks (and Lanfear blasting everyone--that's what a Forsaken can do when they feel like it).

 

Here's some alternative homework: reread The Traps of Rhuidean, the last chapter in The Shadow Rising. Pay close attention to page 884 where Lanfear shields Asmodean. He was not up to ordinary Forsaken-channeling standards.

 

And if he was ... lol ... then it would rule Moiraine out even more strongly, since Lanfear kicked her trash, and only got suckered because she was focused on Rand. Asmodean wouldn't have any distraction like that. So even though your point is wrong, if it were right, it would work against you. Since it is wrong, however, it is irrelevant.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Cybertrolloc:

RobertAlexWillis:

A connection is the basis of any treaty, and severing a connection always vilates that treaty.

We don't know the basis of the Treaty between whomever and the Finn (whether both have the same treaty or not). The doorways may not be involved, there may be others and so forth...but from what we do see of the Finn through Mat, they haven't had visitors for some time (the one in Tear hadn't been used since it went into the vaults in the Stone hundreds of years ago, and the Fox door probably not since AoL).

 

Asmo's death doesn't strike me as planned. If he died in his room or even someplace he would be known to be, sure. Yes, a Forsaken killer could slap a tracing weave on him whenever, but in the Forsaken powwows of FoH they were dismissive of what help Asmo would be to Rand (Sammael changes his tune later). It's why I don't like Graendal's Favorite's scenario.

 

Homework: reread Moiraine's PoV at the docks (and Lanfear blasting everyone--that's what a Forsaken can do when they feel like it).

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

The Doorways, granting access to the Finn's, but the are just portals, they are not an actual part of the Treaty. As such, the destruction of one would not terminate the agreement that had been made in the past. Using the Tower of Ghengi to gain access is perfectly acceptable and, during most of the Third Age, was the primary method of obtaining access. The loss of a little used (twice in 3 millenia Doorway) wouldn't be a major concern.

 

As Cybertrolloc said, the Doorway to the Eelfinn most likely wasn't used since the Age of Legends as it was loaded up in the wagons and stored in Rhuidean. For along time, the Doorway to the Aelfinn was only accessible to a the Firsts of Mayene and the few Aes Sedai that studied it. Then, about 300 years prior to the current events, it was sent to Tear and placed in the Great Hold denying access to everyone. This allow us to establish a likely time when visits to both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn ended, and the definition of "a long time" can be establised. Since Mat's memories ending around the time of Hawkwing, it is safe to say that is the approximate time people quit using the Tower of Ghengi, thus the dealings with the Eelfinn ended around 1100 years prior to the current age. Dealings with the Aelfinn continued for about another 800 years after that.

 

Further, by establishing the timeline based on Mat's memories and the move of door to Tear, we can deduse that "a good many" in the Jordan statement above can be safely interpreted as "most". Access to the Doorways was just too limited.

 

Majsju: IF Moiraine was actually allowed to make any wishes, which is doubtful for obvious reasons, she would have narrowed down the room for interpretation as much as possible, to eliminate the risk of unforseeable consequences.

 

What obvious reasons? With the Doorway being of little importance, and the Finn's obvious desire for what they get in return, it is more than likely that Moirain did in fact get her wishes.

 

Addition:

I am not implying that the Aelfinn can't be reached by the Tower, just that the Eelfinn couldn't have had visitors with both the Tower and Doorway out of use. Visits to the Aelfinn would have reduced at the same time as those to the Eelfinn ended.

[Guest Majsju]

Hmm... appreciate the missing 'black wires', but Moiraine would not have known anything about that and as I am certain Asmo was still a Darkfriend at the very least,... he still qualifies as, from knowledge sofar, the closest 'shadow being' in Rand's vacinity.

 

Ok, for clarity, how do you want things to be? If Moiraine makes a general wish to "fight the shadow", it's not her knowledge about Asmo's connection, it's the finns that come into play. Unless she wished for "the shadow according to my point of view".

 

So which one is it? A general wish which means the finns knowledge has precedence, or a specific wish to kill Asmo?

 

What obvious reasons? With the Doorway being of little importance, and the Finn's obvious desire for what they get in return, it is more than likely that Moirain did in fact get her wishes.

 

And what exactly says that the doorway is of little importance? A doorway directly to their world, without the need to go through the ToG. Mat's experience in Rhuidean hints at a possibility for them to, at least for a short time exit that doorway, something that may not be possible.

And even if the doorway was of little importance, most people, and I think this goes for finns as well, gets quite cranky when you destroy their things. And I think bringing one of the most evil persons in the last 3000 years with you into their world at the same time as you destroy their doorway would make them extra annoyed.

 

That Lanfear was held prisoner for a time, and Moiraine still is being held doesn't exactly point at the finns being cool with the doorway being destroyed. Quite the contrary.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Majsju: And what exactly says that the doorway is of little importance? A doorway directly to their world, without the need to go through the ToG. Mat's experience in Rhuidean hints at a possibility for them to, at least for a short time exit that doorway, something that may not be possible.

 

So which one is it? The Finn's cannot leave because that means the can interact with the outside world, or they can leave. You have adamently denied their ability when that example was used to prove they can interact with the outside world. You want it both ways just like you are accusing Egwene of.

[Guest Egwene]

Maj... The quote is taken out of contents as it was made in reply to something Robert Alex said. I actually added the fact that Asmo, from knowledge sofar, is still the closest shadow being in Rand's vacinity specifically to make clear that Moiraine or Finns... it doesn't matter. He is a being of the shadow to both of them.

 

Until I read aMoL, I won't know what exactly Moiraine said. Whatever it was, had the consequence that Asmo died. And I have given several options already of possible phrases. There are many more. The Finns interpretation takes presedence, obviously. There is no reason to think that they would believe Asmo to be a follower of the light.

.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Doorways, granting access to the Finn's, but the are just portals, they are not an actual part of the Treaty. As such, the destruction of one would not terminate the agreement that had been made in the past.

 

If I implied that destroying one door obliterated the treaty, then I spologize, I did no mean to. What I meant was that destroying AN entrance VIOLATED the treaty, because IF all were destroyed, THEN the treaty would be pointless. You can break a provision of a treaty without destroying the treaty. You just have to face the punishment. In this case, death of the major offender, imprisonment of the other. And we wouldn't have heard of this provision yet, because you don't have to ask about it, like the others. Either you didn't break it, or the door is a melted pile of slag, no questions necessary. It is logical that the connections (not large in number and infrequently used at best) would be protected under any agreement.

 

And I have admitted that we do not KNOW that this is the case. I have said that it is logical, and plausible. I have said that it is supported by the fact that Lanfear died and Moiraine is imprisoned. But I also say there is NO verified evidence that either of them DID get to make their requests.

 

Also .... are we a hundred percent sure the Treaty applies if you go in through the Tower? We haven't seen anyone go in that way yet. I'm not saying it doesn't, but we don't KNOW that it does. And the deals made that provided Mat's memories aren't proof. There had to be the possibility of making deals before the treaty, or the treaty could never have been made. And if there is a way to make deals outside of the treaty, you can bet entering through the Tower of Ghenjei is the way to do it.

 

I make this point because if the Tower is a fundamentally different kind of entrance, the rules of the treaty may only apply to the ter'angreal, making the destruction of one more likely to be a violation of said treaty.

[Guest Majsju]

So which one is it? The Finn's cannot leave because that means the can interact with the outside world, or they can leave. You have adamently denied their ability when that example was used to prove they can interact with the outside world. You want it both ways just like you are accusing Egwene of.

 

The rule is that they can not affect the outside world. Without further knowledge about the exact rules, that means that they theoretically can enter the outside world as long as they don't take any kind of action that affects it.

Whether or not they would actually be interested in leaving without any ability to affect the world is another matter of course.

 

Maj... The quote is taken out of contents as it was made in reply to something Robert Alex said. I actually added the fact that Asmo, from knowledge sofar, is still the closest shadow being in Rand's vacinity specifically to make clear that Moiraine or Finns... it doesn't matter. He is a being of the shadow to both of them.

 

The closest shadow being is not the same as the shadow. Rand cut Asmo's link to the DO, Asmo is not shadow anymore except for the part of his personality that made him turn in the first place. But if personality in itself is enough to make someone shadow, any potential DF would have been a target.

 

If the finns know enough about Asmo to be able to locate him so extremely exactly, they would also know about the link being cut.

[Jonn]

So which one is it? The Finn's cannot leave because that means the can interact with the outside world, or they can leave. You have adamently denied their ability when that example was used to prove they can interact with the outside world. You want it both ways just like you are accusing Egwene of.

 

The rule is that they can not affect the outside world. Without further knowledge about the exact rules, that means that they theoretically can enter the outside world as long as they don't take any kind of action that affects it.

Whether or not they would actually be interested in leaving without any ability to affect the world is another matter of course.

 

It's actually not a rule in the sense that you want it to be. It's a comment on some limitations for the Eelfinn, made by RJ outside of the text. While it can be called authoritative simply by the fact that the author is the one who is talking about it, if it contradicts what is actually within the text, you reallyhave to put your money on the text.

 

What has been written in the books, in this case, cannot be undone. Meanwhile, a fragment of a statement made in a Q&A can be amendeded at any given time. As the question about the Finn was asked not specifically in context of having to do with either Moiraine or Asmodean, we cannot speculate that the rule applies as solidly as you or Robert Alex would want it to. Add the fact that Mat's experience is contradictory to that statement, and you're really drawing air in regards to RJ's comment proving true.

 

There is another flaw in your interpretation. Pay attention to the ENTIRE quote by RJ if you want an accurate application for what he said. The Eelfinn and Aelfinn leave the individual to decide what is to be done on the outside world. If you wanted to kill someone, you have to do it, they will not leave their realm and kill the person for you. If you wanted an army to be at your service, they'd put you in position to gain an army, they wouldn't gear up and provide you with themselves as your foot soldiers. That is what the rest of the quote suggests. Besides, RJ's quote is only as good as how it applies to the book in a practical sense.

 

In other words: The printed text has the final word.

 

Maj... The quote is taken out of contents as it was made in reply to something Robert Alex said. I actually added the fact that Asmo, from knowledge sofar, is still the closest shadow being in Rand's vacinity specifically to make clear that Moiraine or Finns... it doesn't matter. He is a being of the shadow to both of them.

 

The closest shadow being is not the same as the shadow. Rand cut Asmo's link to the DO, Asmo is not shadow anymore except for the part of his personality that made him turn in the first place. But if personality in itself is enough to make someone shadow, any potential DF would have been a target.

 

If the finns know enough about Asmo to be able to locate him so extremely exactly, they would also know about the link being cut.

 

They can see through Mat's eyes.

 

There's your locator right there.

 

Asmodean is Forsaken. Nothing changes that. He's over 3000 years old and he's lived this long because of his deep connection with the Shadow. Unless you can change the past, you cannot change the man from what he is. In Moiraine's letter, she implied much the same as a reminder to Rand.

[Jonn]

The Doorways, granting access to the Finn's, but the are just portals, they are not an actual part of the Treaty. As such, the destruction of one would not terminate the agreement that had been made in the past.

 

If I implied that destroying one door obliterated the treaty, then I spologize, I did no mean to. What I meant was that destroying AN entrance VIOLATED the treaty, because IF all were destroyed, THEN the treaty would be pointless. You can break a provision of a treaty without destroying the treaty. You just have to face the punishment. In this case, death of the major offender, imprisonment of the other. And we wouldn't have heard of this provision yet, because you don't have to ask about it, like the others. Either you didn't break it, or the door is a melted pile of slag, no questions necessary. It is logical that the connections (not large in number and infrequently used at best) would be protected under any agreement.

 

And I have admitted that we do not KNOW that this is the case. I have said that it is logical, and plausible. I have said that it is supported by the fact that Lanfear died and Moiraine is imprisoned. But I also say there is NO verified evidence that either of them DID get to make their requests.

 

Also .... are we a hundred percent sure the Treaty applies if you go in through the Tower? We haven't seen anyone go in that way yet. I'm not saying it doesn't, but we don't KNOW that it does. And the deals made that provided Mat's memories aren't proof. There had to be the possibility of making deals before the treaty, or the treaty could never have been made. And if there is a way to make deals outside of the treaty, you can bet entering through the Tower of Ghenjei is the way to do it.

 

I make this point because if the Tower is a fundamentally different kind of entrance, the rules of the treaty may only apply to the ter'angreal, making the destruction of one more likely to be a violation of said treaty.

 

Do you know the exact treaty and all of the details of its application?

 

I suspect that you do not.

 

What we know of the treaty is described in the books as having to do with iron, fire and music. There is no mention of the doorways that I've read.