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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Guest Egwene

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

spigots or caudrens  

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  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28


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Guest cwestervelt
Hmmm... hope it is safe... there is still something funny going on with a lot of threads... Still' date=' I'd like to think that the worst case scenario would be for the thread to be locked, rather than deleted...[/quote']

 

You must be referring to the "There is no post for this topic" or something similar that is popping up all over the place. Including on the only page of a topic. Something appears to have gotten blown away as a little while ago I couldn't find posts, or event he discussion thread I posted to, that I made this morning.

 

But hey, on the bright side, the quotes finally work again. :D

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Guest Egwene

I think someone used Balefire. Fortunately the amount used was small and posts only unravelled back to about sunday... it could have been worse. It could have balefired DM out of existence :shock:

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I beleive that Graendal killed Asmodean, because wasn't she with Rhavin in Camelyn at one point? I remember reading that once. Moridin or whoever's name means "Death" , and didn't the end of the chapter say "...and Death took him."? Maybe he killed him. Or took him. I'll have to look it up I guess, my memory seems a bit foggy right now; I'm so tired. My kitten likes Pringles. See? Good night.

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I beleive that Graendal killed Asmodean' date=' because wasn't she with Rhavin in Camelyn at one point? I remember reading that once. Moridin or whoever's name means "Death" , and didn't the end of the chapter say "...and Death took him."? Maybe he killed him. Or took him. I'll have to look it up I guess, my memory seems a bit foggy right now; I'm so tired. My kitten likes Pringles. See? Good night.[/quote']

 

Sammael and Lanfear were also at that meeting, and this was really the first time she was introduced in person. Since Sammael's presence wasn't accounted for either, I find it hard to grasp people's reasoning for a process of elimination when it comes to Graendal.

 

First of all, at that point we barely know her or of her character attributes and activities. Secondly, after her brief supporting appearance at the beginning of Fires of Heaven, she doesn't appear again until Lord of Chaos.

 

With Sammael also unaccounted for at the time of Asmodean's killing (he being one of the more prominent figures in the books at the time) I find it rather revisionary how people can come to Graendal so assuredly when in truth she only made a cameo appearance at the beginning of Fires of Heaven.

 

That's not obvious at all. We, as the audience had no idea what her motivations were about anything, let alone what her true intentions were concerning Asmodean.

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Good point, John, however, wasn't Sammael a coward? Would he have put himself in that position? He liked defense, not offense, though I suppose he'd have to play offensive at some point. Now I don't know if Moiraine and/or Lanfear come back or not (not that far yet), but maybe if they didn't really die, (which I don't think they did) maybe Lanfear was re-grouping herself and showing Rhavin she wasn't dead, and that's why Asmodean said "You!", because of their earlier times together, and he had thought she was dead, too. Or maybe there was another doorway ter'angreal in the deep of the castle, and Moiraine was leaving the castle when she ran into him. I guess I am going to re-read the books, after I finish the ones that are out first, of course.

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Good point' date=' John, however, wasn't Sammael a coward? Would he have put himself in that position? He liked defense, not offense, though I suppose he'd have to play offensive at some point. Now I don't know if Moiraine and/or Lanfear come back or not (not that far yet), but maybe if they didn't really die, (which I don't think they did) maybe Lanfear was re-grouping herself and showing Rhavin she wasn't dead, and that's why Asmodean said "You!", because of their earlier times together, and he had thought she was dead, too. Or maybe there was another doorway ter'angreal in the deep of the castle, and Moiraine was leaving the castle when she ran into him. I guess I am going to re-read the books, after I finish the ones that are out first, of course.[/quote']

 

My father used to say something kind of weird to me. Mind you my father was far from a coward. He grew up in a tough environment. He would say something to the effect of:

 

"A real man can turn his back on a fight."

 

Later on when I was older he told me that the other part of that philosophy was that the same man was thinking about what he's going to do when he turns around and comes back.

 

Bottom line, Sammael was no coward. He was shrewd and cautious, and rightfully so. How many had tried to face Rand from the front and fell hard? Ishamael himself, fell to Rand several times, finally dying in Dragon Reborn.

 

Sammael was good at defense, but there was never a defense that could truly stop Lews Therin. He knew that, the same man who attacked The Bore successfully, was part of Rand. All evidence pointed to the fact. Sammael was not foolish enough to risk a straight up encounter with Rand. It would have made perfect sense for Sammael to snipe at Rand from the fringes while he was busy with something else.

 

He did it when he sent lightning to Cairhien. All signs pointed to Illian by design whenever the Shadow struck at Rand's party. As a reader, it would be quite natural to think of Sammael being involved in Asmodean's demise. Sammael was the last person who wanted Rand tutored by someone who had intimate knowledge of the Source and the workings of the Forsaken.

 

Graendal on the other hand...All we knew about her at that time was that she had a thing for beauty and that she preferred Compulsion whenever she could arrange it. Not much of a sign that she would hastily kill Asmodean on sight. Certainly not much of a sign after the man's death either. Only thing she gives up concerning her thought on the matter is that she believes that Asmodean must be dead. This fact she was told as were others when Demandred relayed the information after his visit to Shayol Ghul in Lord of Chaos.

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i dont think it was any of the forsaken that killed him. I believe it could have easily been a gholam as they are immune to the power and very quick. The one does surprise Mat a few times.

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The problem with gholam, shaidar haran, moridin, and others is that they had not been introduced yet. And according to RJ we should have know who killed him right then. So any characters named afterwards don't count. (RJ has also stated that the "death took him" is NOT a pun on Moridin, thank the light!)

 

My problem with Sammael and what pushed me into the Graendal camp is the discussions between the two. Granted the discussions are a little vague and either one could be lying, wrong, or stupid at any given time but IMO Sammael did not know what happened to Asmo but Graendal does.

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There IS alot of evidence pointing towards Greandal(sp?) Not to mention the fact that i looked up an interview with RJ and he the question was (sorry can't remember exactly will find link if you want) It is so obvious Greandal(sp?) killed Asmo.Why do people think she didn't do it? And did she do it?

 

The answer was something like "Yes,Greandal did kill him.I don't know why people don't say its her or say its someone else"

 

 

And the Lanfear/Moiraine(sp?) Theory is very very very slim Considering they are in finnland and Lanfear most likely dead. Even if Lanfear got out she would want Aviendha dead at the time.Moiraine would realise he is important to Rand's teaching.

In tFoH possibly tSR(Sorry I can't recall much :S)Moiraine would want Sammeal dead or even possibly deamdred(sp?)And the Aviendha theory is very unlikely also considering she was with mat.BUT it is possible Sammeal could of did it also since Sammeal Rahvin Lanfear and Greandal were gonna push Rand into going to Illian so they could ambush him.

Sammeal could of been going to a meeting with Rahvin, or even possibly looking for Greandal,it is very unlikely but possible.

 

But like I stated earlier... I found a question and answer and it clearly stated Greandal is the murderer

 

Bash my opinions and make fun of em I don't care they are in my opinion.Besides the Greandal murder which is a fact.

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Gaul ... if you'll look back a few pages (or at other threads) you'll see that I really do think Graendal did it. I want you to understand that so you'll be able to take what I'm about to say in context.

 

You said:

 

The answer was something like "Yes,Greandal did kill him.I don't know why people don't say its her or say its someone else"

 

and

 

But like I stated earlier... I found a question and answer and it clearly stated Greandal is the murderer

 

Please, please put something other than your own unsubstantiated word up for a reference like this, or don't say anything at all. Because as much as I would love it if Jordan had said that, a whole lot of us have looked, and seen nothing like it. So unless you can give a link or a reference source, just stick to logic or verifiable quotes.

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wow you just ripped a guy for backing you rob... whole new level of coldness...

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Well I do try to treat each post based on its merits, not on how much it agrees with me. Its a little something called "objectivity" which allows me to even say "I'm wrong" sometimes, if someone gives me a good reason, like logic or facts.

 

But when someone just says "nuh-uh, its like this" with nothing resembling evidence ... well, I'm just way to much of a jerk to let it stand, I guess.

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Gaul, is this the Quote you were referring to?

As a final note on Graendal, there seems to be a large number of people who believe that RJ has actually confirmed that Graendal killed Asmodean. The basis for this belief is the following exchange from the CNN chat on December 12, 2000:

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.

Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

 

Sorry, but no. Exciting as this may seem to the wishful thinkers in the crowd, RJ is NOT confirming here that Graendal is the killer.

First of all, if RJ had suddenly decided, after all this time, to spill the beans about Asmo's killer in a chat from the year 2000, then why has he continued to refuse to answer the question at any point since then? Secondly, reread what he is actually saying: "The reason I won't tell people..." Why is he saying he won't answer a question in the same breath he supposedly answers the question?

 

It's been made very clear that RJ has no intention of ever actually confirming who killed Asmodean, and it's just as clear that in the above quote he is simply ignoring "Vercingetorix"'s attempt at slyness, and giving his stock answer to the actual question asked.

(Shamelessly stolen from the WOTFAQ.)

As the quote points out, it's not a confirmation of Graendal. If that's not what you were referring to, can you point us to the relevant quote?

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Yea sorry lol I mis-read a ton of stuff...

 

 

BUT the whole fact of people saying wow lol its lanfear the only way she could have killed Asmo is if she died the moment she was in finnland got ressurected by the DO then traveled and killed Asmo.... we know he was killed by the OP but (I might of missed this) what spell or just plain old what killed him? Strong Balefire maybe? But most of the evidence points to greandal.It could have also been rand I don't have a book at hand for reference to know where he was at but I believe he was coming out of Tel(sp?)

 

 

Bash my opinion on if it was Rand:P(I'll go through that scene in my book again)

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Guest Egwene

Thanks for digging out that quote, Mr Ares :D

 

Gaul, I don't believe it was Rand due to his PoV in the book at the time of the killing.

 

I still feel that Lanfear or Moiraine make the most sense. It makes no sense for RJ to keep Graendal's involvement a secret. However, in either Lanfear or Moiraine's case, he could not say anything without giving away quite a lot of the story developement.

 

'intuitively obvious'... to me that really never applied to Graendal. The first time I considered her a suspect at all, was after joining DM and reading other people's theories. At that point I had read the books several times already.

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Well,the Moraine(SP?) and Lanfear theory is a very slight chance considering they are in Finnland and if they made a wish stating..."Can I get out of here and kill asmodean?" They would be out of Finnland altogether and Asmodean being a forsaken which is connected to the shadow they would either kill Lanfear/Moiraine or they would come out a gibbering mad woman... and to Moiraine's note she knew Nateal(sp?) was Asmodean so why not kill him in the waste or before they got to Caemlyn(sp?)? And Moiraine also knew that Rand needed Asmo for training. As for Lanfear she would of wanted Egwene/Aviendha dead at that time.

 

 

It could have been slayer for all we know? From what I'm reading on the internet is that RJ is gonna put some more obvious clues into AMOL.

Oh and the killer had to be using the one power or the True Power because of the "You?No!" and his voice still hung in the air after he was killed.

And I also found a good theory saying it was Slayer and it was pretty convincing

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Well' date='the Moraine(SP?) and Lanfear theory is a very slight chance considering they are in Finnland and if they made a wish stating..."Can I get out of here and kill asmodean?" They would be out of Finnland altogether and Asmodean being a forsaken which is connected to the shadow they would either kill Lanfear/Moiraine or they would come out a gibbering mad woman... and to Moiraine's note she knew Nateal(sp?) was Asmodean so why not kill him in the waste or before they got to Caemlyn(sp?)? And Moiraine also knew that Rand needed Asmo for training. As for Lanfear she would of wanted Egwene/Aviendha dead at that time.

 

 

It could have been slayer for all we know? From what I'm reading on the internet is that RJ is gonna put some more obvious clues into AMOL.

Oh and the killer had to be using the one power or the True Power because of the "You?No!" and his voice still hung in the air after he was killed.

And I also found a good theory saying it was Slayer and it was pretty convincing[/quote']

 

1) "You? No!" does not confirm OP/TP usage, but it can be cosidered the most likely method.

2) The Finns would interpret any wish - "I want to kill a Chosen" could make Asmo the target, he need not be specified.

3) Slayer is an assassin - if he did it then who did he do it for? RJ has ruled out Shai'tan ordering the hit.

 

Thanks for digging out that quote, Mr Ares

You are welcome, young mortal.

 

Finally, I would like to say that I know who did it, but I promised RJ I wouldn't tell anyone, so I won't reveal until he alredy has done. Prove me wrong, if you dare.

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Everyone against Moiraine says that much about why she didn't kill him in the waste.

 

Why didn't she kill Lanfear in the Waste then?

 

Well, we know why. The time had to be right to kill Lanfear. It's not hard to accept that. Why is it so hard to accept the same reasoning for Asmodean?

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Guest Egwene

I am shamelessly bumping this thread for voting purposes. I think the discussion is now taking place on the our new, structured board.

 

So, leave your vote here and wander on :wink:

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Maj' date=' I am not sure what it is that I am supossedly inventing....everything is based on information contained in the books. If what I am doing is inventing than every Graendal thread I have ever seen is equally 'invented'.

 

As for them bringing fire...His guide asks him if he carries iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light. Where does fire come into it?[/quote']

 

You're inventing how Moiraine or Lanfear could get to Caemlyn, and how they got back to finnland. From the info we have, the only entrance/exit is through the doorways or the tower of Ghenjei. The doorway from Rhuidean is destroyed,we don't know if there's any connection between the finns so that the doorway in Tear can even be used.

You're inventing motive, both Lanfear and Moiraine would have other targets if they got the chance to kill one person of their own chosing. Any of those two as the killer would most certainly require that they went there with the intent to kill Asmo. That does not fit with any of them.

 

Motive and possibility are fundamental when solving a murder case, Lanfear and Moiraine requires inventing information to reach that.

 

Actually Lanfear has STATED her motive in the books. She specifically says that she will kill Asmodean once he has taught Rand enough. I think that there is about equal amounts of "invention" to get Lanfear out of Finnworld as there is for Graendal to be skulking around

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Guest Majsju

Actually Lanfear has STATED her motive in the books. She specifically says that she will kill Asmodean once he has taught Rand enough. I think that there is about equal amounts of "invention" to get Lanfear out of Finnworld as there is for Graendal to be skulking around

 

She said that in a completely different context. When Lanfear said she would kill Asmo, her plan to have Rand join her and take out all the other forsaken was still in play.

 

When Asmo dies, that plan is dead and buried, Lanfear thinks Rand has betrayed her with Aviendha, she has tried to kill him very recently, and as we see later in WH, her vacation in finnland has not cooled down her hatred for Rand one bit.

 

Asmo would at best be #3 on Lanfears list if she had the opportunity to go out on a killing spree, Rand and Avi are far, far above Asmo.

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Guest cwestervelt

I don't know Maj. Lanfear seems to be quite an equal opportunity killer to me. I don't think she would really care what order she went after them provided she got to be the one doing the killing.

 

I will agree that Lanfear had absolutely nothing to do with Asmodean's murder. I just don't think it was her style. To quick and painless, and not nearly flamboyant enough.

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Guest Majsju

Indeed, had lanfear killed Asmo his bodyparts would probably be spread out all over the corridor, and a nice little message for rand written on the wall with Asmos blood.

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