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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Guest Egwene

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

spigots or caudrens  

114 members have voted

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  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28


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Guest Egwene

*does another little happy dance* Thank you, Fire Lord!!

 

No, no, Robert, the sympathy vote wasn't part of that statistic yet... it is a new one :D

 

...oh...ok.. Graendal picked up another two... so what :roll: ...no, sorry, Beowolf, no additional one for Lanfear. Though let's face it... Lanfear and Moiraine are almost the same theory... just different executors :wink:

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Guest Fire Lord

Well, making Egwene happy was part of the reason I voted...

I tend towards Moiraine, but I haven't fully eliminated Lanfear.

 

Three weeks of furious reading, and I finished all 122 pages. Yes, no kidding, and it was an experience, I tell you...

 

I cursed, bumbed my head on a wall or screamed with joy as each camp (Moiraine and Graendal) tried to put some sense into the other.

 

And I do have a question for Graendal supporters.

 

If I am to follow R.J.'s words, how is Graendal intuitively obvious? In all 122 pages I haven't seen a proper answer to that.

 

I didn't even think of her as a possible suspect until I joined the forums, and the only way I saw was by eliminating other suspects, thus deduction, which is rather different from intuition, if I know my english.

 

Anyone please clarify that before I come up with more questions? (tons of them).

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I'll just answer this because I haven't in a long time. It is not certain what RJ meant exactly, it might well have been the physicist speaking, when he used the intuitively obvious. However, it is intuitively obvious; from the start it should be clear Asmo's death was no accident, bad luck perhaps but no accident. From that, when you know what to look for, it is obvious from the text that the killer was Graendal.

 

For more questions I refer to the Asmo thread on the structured board, there's a better presentation there than here, if you can still bear to read... :wink:

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Guest Egwene

Fire Lord... you did what???? :shock:

 

Wow!! That is absolutely amazing! I am totally impressed... obviously, even more so that after all those pages you voted Moiraine :P

 

And your question definately points at one of the main reasons that I have never been able to think of Graendal as the killer. The first time I ever considered her was when I joined DM and found the Asmo theories.

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Okay, I cannot read 122 pages of the thread, but I had never considered that it could be Moiraine. Man, this community really makes one think, eh?

 

<3 Moiraine

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Guest Egwene

Does that mean you are voting for Moiraine, too, Miren? To make it count, you need to submit it in the poll at the top of the page :wink:

 

And you comment about this place making you think is so true. I had read the books a few times by the time I found DM, but quite a few 'finer points' had escaped me. And one of the things I will always be grateful for, is the introduction to some of those reference sites... like http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ .

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<--- voted for Moiraine

 

I too didn't suspect Graendal at all. Even after reading all the theories (all 8 million of them), I still suspect either Lanfear or Moiraine. I vote Moiraine because my Chosen can do no wrong!!!

 

But I'll hand it to all the Graendal backers, you guys make a good case. I just can't support it because it does not jump out at me as being obvious. Of course, aMoL could prove me wrong....

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*sigh* :roll:

Let's take Lanfear vs. Moiraine

Yay for the Chart of Asmo! :D

Means- Tied.

Motive- Lanfear wins. You'd have to really stretch things to say Moiraine wanted Asmo dead more than Lanfear did...

Oppurtunity- Lanfear wins, due to the fact that we do not know when she got out, but we do know she got out. Moiraine is still very much imprisoned. This is the big difference between Moiraine and Lanfear.

Body Disposal- Tied.

Reason for Secrecy- Err... Tied? Moiraine doesn't exactly have the ability to tell anyone..., and Lanfear has a great reason not to:(midtrap/compettition amongst Chosen). Which, if I recall correctly, is the response Greandal fans give.

Knowledge of Event- Tied. We just don't know, ahveing had no revealing POVs or statements from either.

Recognition Factor- Lanfear. Again, you'd have to really stretch things to dispute this one. Asmo's been having nightmares about Lanfear.

"Obvious Factor- Lanfear. Lanfear is the most "obvious" choice. Nothing more need be said. :)

 

Let's take a look. If there are no disputes, then we have:

Lanfear- 4

Moirarine- 0

Tied- 4

I think we can all see who this one goes to... :D

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With almost any character, you can come up with a reason for the secrecy, either for why RJ is keeping it from us, or why the character is keeping it from others in the story.

 

However, a little while back someone suggested an idea that I have since come to agree with.

 

There's no reason behind the Death of Asmodean and the secrecy surrounding it other than RJ wanted it that way. His "obvious" comment is complete bull. He wrote is specifically to be a mystery, and he was quite successful at it. He most likely planned (from the beginning) to give away the answer at the end of the series, and simply enjoys watching us guess in the meantime.

 

Its just like Rosencrantz and Gildenstern from Hamlet. They aren't major players, and you assume that they died, but you're not told explicity until the end. So up until that point, you have a little mystery of no real importance just sitting there in the back of your mind.

 

The death of Asmodean is structured exactly the same way. It isn't too farfetched to believe that RJ actually created this mystery as a bit of an homage.

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Guest Fire Lord

Hmm, Asmo, if I remember well, remarks that he'd hand himself to Semirhage rather than fall into the Dark One's hands.

 

This to me suggest that the Dark One is as bad as you can get, and that the Forsaken are terrified of him-with the possible exception of Moridin, it's hard to know what the dude thinks...-.

The Dark One likes very much to punish, and I'd think that there is not worse than a traitor, and would therefore conclude that the Dark One would have indeed liked very much to have Asmo.

 

Wouldn't he reward more anyone who brought him Asmo alive rather than simply killing him? Do you think he knows the killer? If he does, what reaction do you think he'd have, given that Asmo is beyond reach now? People think Asmo was a traitor, so assume that it was open season to shoot his head off. I'd point to you that the Dark One didn't order for his head, and I tend to think there is a reason for this-not a clue-. After all, the man was a Chosen, so I'd think the Dark One would have the final say on the matter.

 

 

Graendal was vying for the Naeblis title,-and still is, for all I can see. Wouldn't that help her more than killing him and then keeping quiet about it?

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Why doesn't anyone in this forum seem to give any attention to Aviendha as the potential killer. The folks over at Wotmania have several strong theories in her favor without any sizable holes like "she wasn't even around in that book, why would she be a suspect?" or "She had been thrown into an alternate dimension and it wasn't in any way obviousfor her to have come back to frag Asmo."

 

I just hope the answer is in MoL, or we're all doomed jabber about this until the next age comes.

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Guest Barmacral

Check out the Asmo thread in the structured discussion wolf, you'll be in for a pleasant suprise. And RJ will be telling us either in the last book or after its out I think... dunno which tho.

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Guest Egwene

Fader put Avi forward as suspect on this thread in the past... but never got round to giving a detailed write up...

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You are sitting in a courtyard, peacefully strumming your harp and minding your own business. You observe that the red-haired Aiel always following in the Lord Dragon's shadow is not listening to your playing or appreciating your mad harp "skillz", and neither is the Lord Dragon's gambler friend.

 

Grumping to yourself, you gather up your things and head off to look for some wine.

 

You go through a door, take one step in, and then stop. Somehow, the Aiel girl, Aviendha, who was behind you at the fountain, is now in front of you in the hallway! She must have remembered how to make a Traveling gateway even though her PoVs say that she cannot remember how she did it!

 

Your reaction upon seeing her is:

 

a. "Hi."

b. "Um, how did you get here in front of me, when you were just back out by the fountain? What do you want?"

c. "YOU?! OMG! No! Impossible! DON'T KILL ME EVEN THOUGH YOU NEVER GAVE ME ANY IMPRESSION THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO DO ME HARM AND BY ALL ACCOUNTS HAVE NOT AND NEVER WILL HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHO I TRULY AM!"

 

If you chose letter "c", then you may have a viable suspect.

 

Our PoVs from Avi never give any cause for suspicion. She never thinks anything remotely related to Jasin Natael/Asmodean/that one guy she killed that one day in Caemlyn for Rand's own good. Mat never thought anything strange about her bolting off like a shot in a suspicious manner. Asmodean's reaction to his killer does not seem right for him just running into Avi in a hallway.

 

I personally feel strongly that Asmo's reaction upon spying his imminent killer can only be a reaction of seeing someone he knows and recognizes as being a baddy and a killer--which I guess is redundant. Meaning one of the Forsaken. Or possibly Fain (unlikely) or Slayer (unlikely, since he was not in the series at the time). The theories about Avi or one of the Wise Ones or Moiraine or Bela or Tam being the murderer are fun to speculate about, but I don't think they hold water.

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^ I agree completly. Thank you for not including Lanfear in your list, that would have greatly angered me. :D

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Guest Barmacral

Slayer was in fact in the series at the time Hannah, it has been the previous book when he was attacking the two rivers.

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Slayer was in fact in the series at the time Hannah' date=' it has been the previous book when he was attacking the two rivers.[/quote']

 

Luc was widely introduced in TSR, but there were maybe three glimpses of Slayer in that book, in T'A'R. However, we didn't know anything about his character other than that he liked to hunt wolves.

 

RJ's comments indicate that we should have been able to figure out who the killer was based on everything from that book (TFoH) and prior. I think the direct quote people are using on this is:

 

I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died.

 

But we didn't know the true nature of Slayer as of the end of TFoH, so if you are following the "you should know who killed him as of the moment of his death" line, then I feel Slayer should be ruled out.

 

However, I also feel that RJ's idea of "obvious" leaves something to be desired, so... hopefully we will RAFO. :? [/u]

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wouldnt aviendha feel that amount of saidar being channeld? ... or is it possible to invert a weave so it cant be felt? i mean, in that way it cant be saidin too, maybe the true power :P

 

or just a knife :lol:

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Hello again folks; I have returned!

 

Regarding Slayer - If nothing else, I look at Slayer's gloating in a later book about how his biggest achievement is the slaughter of the two bound and helpless Black Sisters locked up in whichever Borderland area it was. I cannot conceive of the fact that one could argue that killing two shielded and chained up sisters being anything near as 'awesome' as killing a only partially shielded Forsaken. Furthermore, we have NO evidence that Asmodean would recognize Slayer. We have NO reason to believe he could have killed Asmodean (remember - Rand comments earlier that Asmodean was using more than his sword when fighting the Trollocs... and we know that simple weaves of air can be mighty useful at deflecting things like knives; I just don't see how he would have been slain so quickly). Either way, as Hannah said, we don't know anything about Slayer by that point in the book (certainly not that he is an assassin for the Dark One and other Forsaken).

 

As for Aviendha feeling the power if it was Graendal (or Lanfear or Moraine if you must be wrong, heh) - there are many ways to instantly kill someone that can be very easy and use very little power. For example, spears of air through the eyes/throat/head/heart. Another is simply channeling fire directly inside the skull. Another is crushing the heart. Another is suffocation (well, this one wouldn't work because it was an instant death, but still). They are fast and low powered and would prevent him from saying anything but the original 'NO!'. Furthermore, we have no idea how far away Asmodean was. We also could argue that even if she felt it... who cares? There were wise women around and people were still hunting for Trollocs in the palace.

 

Ok, well my work here is done! (vote graendal!)

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Ok, so here's a post I made on page 6 of this discussion. I figure it is easier to repost it than retype the damn thing since we have not had any new information in the last 10ish months since I wrote it:

 

Yay, the great Asmodean Debate! I was part of the latter part of 1, all of 2, and most of 3 back on the original boards... so I've heard every one of the arguments so far presented here.

 

As for Aviendha: She could not have done this. She was at the fountain with Matt and Asmo. Asmo got up, walked away from the fountain, found the door, went inside, was surprised by who he saw, knew he was going to die, died.

1) How did Aviendha get to the door?

2) Why was Asmo afraid of her?

3) Why would Aviendha kill Asmodean?

 

As for Ishammael:

1) He was dead and we didn't know he could come back to life.

 

As for Bashere, Taim, Lan, random Wise Women:

1) How would Asmo recognize them?

2) Why was Asmo afraid of them?

3) How did they know Asmo would pick THAT random door?

 

As for Shaidar Haran:

1) How would Asmodean have recognized him? Asmo's reaction showed familiarity with the person he ran into... not just a simple fade sitting around doing nothing.

2) How did Asmo know he would be killed?

3) How could he have been intuitive by any stretch of definition if we never met him before?

 

Now, that should take care of the side subjects... I've never seen people answer those questions successfully.

 

As for Moiraine/Lanfear there are some problems and some things that may be ignored.

1) How did they get out?

2) Why kill Asmodean? Both definately had better targets to be killed than Asmo (yes, I am aware of the 'maybe she didn't get to name a specific person' argument, if you subscribe to that you may consider this question answered).

 

Now, they both would have correctly brought out Asmodean's response, that much is obvious. My biggest problems have been the two I listed. While issue 2 has, after awhile now, been given an acceptable response... Issue 1 has never been answered in a way I agree with.

 

Yes, I know the arguments... However, they tend to require a lot to be created to support them. For example: We have weak evidence that someone could be 'teleported' to anywhere in the world from Finn-land (weak in that Matt's hanging could have been done through more conventional means just as likely as it could have been done by teleporting him onto the tree branch). We have absolutely zero evidence that the Finns can suck people back into their world afterwards. The same is said of the ways out of Finn-land. Sure, there could just be the one door in-and-out, or many, or none save what the Finns create... but no matter what, the Finns would have had to have let the killer out and I just don't see any evidence to suggest they could have brought the killer back.

 

Either could be the killers, I don't discount that, but for me they simply require too much assumption and "world building" to come up with ways around two very solid-seeming obsticles to their success.

 

As for my choice, I'm with Graendal.

 

Why was she in the city? Well, two reasons. One is for the same reason she was in Illian. Just because she wasn't explicitly told that Rhavin had found some stuff doesn't mean she would not have gone looking anyway. Second is that she had this deal with Rhavin and Sammael. Rand attacks Sammael, Rhavin and Graendal come in from behind and attack Rand. Well... no one attacks Sammael. From here we either assume she comes because she heard about the attack and wants to pick over the ruins OR she comes to talk to Rhavin and finds a bad situation. Either way, she has perfectly fiesible reasons for being in the city at that time.

 

How she was recognized? My favorite reason is that she didn't bother with a disguise or used a disguise very similar to her normal look (as Moghedian talks about herself doing). Alternatively, she used a very different looking disguse... but unfortunately one that Asmo was familiar with.

 

How did she end up meeting Asmodean? This answer always bothers people. I maintain the "unlucky coincidence" theory. I do not believe that his death has major importance to the plot. With that said, she could have been in there looking for secret rooms, she could have been in there being a sneaky spider, she could have been in there hiding while she regathered her thoughts, or she could have been in there because she had just arrived/was just about to leave and knew that room to be off to the side and unfrequented.

 

Why did she kill Asmodean? She knew he was with Rand and that is reason enough for the forsaken.

 

Additional evidence? She's the ONLY person to say he is dead, not just disappeared. All the others seem to think he turned tail and ran while she, for her own reasons, states several different times that she believes him dead. This is nothing on its own, but it is helpful towards the big picture.

 

Between the two major camps, I just see too much "well, if we assume X and guess at Y and frankly make up Z then she definately did it" coming from the Moiraine camps. We simple Do Not Know enough about the Finns and their world to come up with the 'how' for Moiraine or Lanfear to have PERSONALLY done it.

 

If you've read this all, I salute you. Egwene wanted discussion and the answering of questions... I hope I provided some of both. By the way, I'm really surprised that Lanfear has more votes than Moiraine. Of the two, I'd have thought Lanfear a much less likely subject for the murderer (she'd have wanted Egwene and Aviendha dead more than anyone else in the whole world at that point).

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ok, one theory was that it was lanfear.....

 

how?

 

didnt she go thru the doorway before he was killed?

 

YES.

 

i mena jebus crow duh.

and think, if it was anouther forsaken he wouldnt have been surprised and he would tried to talk his way out of it.

 

ons ecodn thought not shadar haran.

all forsaken mistake him for a freak fade.

 

u might all have to get used to maybe that it will never be solved.

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Guest Egwene

keep on voting... we have had almost 50 new votes since the end of December 8)

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