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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Hannah Banana

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Everything posted by Hannah Banana

  1. LOL dflinn, your post made me smile. And I co-sign everything you said. My books always fell open to Mat's chapters. He is (was?) easily my favorite ta'veren. jemron, although I hear what you're saying, I think in this topic it's just as valid to discuss how Mat was written as what he actually did in this book. I definitely don't want to get in some heated argument. But the fact is, a lot of people noticed the way Mat was written as being really different. And Mat didn't really do much worth discussing. Or at least anything that really prompts a lot of speculation about where he's headed. There's Verin's letter. But everything else (Moiraine's rescue, Aludra's dragons, Tuon and the Seanchan) we've been discussing for the last couple of books. So without much to talk about in that respects, there's not much else to fall back on. Fortunately, the discussion about RJ's Mat vs. BS's Mat has remained pretty civil on both sides.
  2. If you think the character of Mat can be summed up as "immature dumbass" before BS took over the story telling... I question how closely you've read his sequences in previous books. In any case, I kind of disagree that Mat has matured at all, or at least that that's what the difference can be chalked up to.. That's what those who argue that Mat was written the same as in previous books make. They say "It isn't a difference in writing styles, it's just that Mat has matured into a fully grown married man." I don't think he's matured at all. He's just been written differently by a different author. And jarringly so, to many people. Some people can just shrug off the changes, and good for them. I mean, what choice do we have but to take what's been written and assimilate it. But as Jonn said, the Seanchan skirmishes wouldn't have changed him. He has memories that he's thought about that are just as disturbing. And he's seen battles, worse than the Seanchan stands, in his own experience. That doesn't turn you into a different person. If it does, it makes you grimmer, more serious, or thoughtful at least. And that's DEFINITELY not the direction Mat went. He became more of a buffoon, to be honest. Sheer comic relief. And again, he was resigned to the marriage with Tuon, so that wouldn't have been any kind of shocker to him. Yeah, I expect him to worry about her more, because he's obviously has feelings for her. That's not an issue.
  3. How has Mat suddenly matured into a completely new person in the space of a few days or weeks since the end of KoD? What life-altering event has occurred to spark such a drastic and sudden change? Tuon finished the marriage ceremony? He knew that was inevitable. So aside from that... what has happened that has him suddenly matured into a completely new person, so abruptly? Must have been a doozy. What BS wrote was amusing, in a different setting. It was too contemporary though. And it's really not in character with Mat at all. Writing pages and pages of intricate aliases? Huh? It was funnily written--if it was a different book series I would laugh. BS wrote Rand and Egwene adequately (I do have some quibble with the latter, but nothing that bothers me enough to bring it up, just minor things), and Perrin is Perrin. But with Mat, he really shot wide of the mark. Mat shouldn't be "comic relief." He's a fun character to read, but he shouldn't be squashed into some one-dimensional "class clown." That's unfair. And as far as Talmanes, well let's compare RJ's previous books with this latest. Since some people still claim they don't see any difference, I can only assume they haven't re-read in a while, or don't pay much attention to those particular scenes, so I've taken the liberty of pulling some passages to compare. Before and after, if you will. (I've loaned out KoD so I don't have it on hand to pull quotes from.) TPoD: Loc: -------------- TGS: Why is Mat starting into Talmanes' eyes so much, looking for a hint of a smile. He never cared before, sheesh. Talmanes had some funny lines. Which would have been OK with other characters, but he's never really cracked a joke before in the series. He hummed a song once. Frequent mentions of him smoking a pipe and pointing the stem at Mat when they talk. Even Mat notes that the pipe is new and wondered where he got it. I wonder WHY he got it. Talmanes never smoked or mentioned that he liked to smoke before. Why insert some new character trait straight off the bat? He mentions it was a present from Roedran, but in that case, he should have had it last book as well. During the dice scene in The Tipsy Gelding, he shows twice as much emotion as he ever has before, groaning and hissing and carrying on about Mat's losing. Not to mention the part where he stares quite openly at an Aes Sedai's cleavage? Talmanes was always properly respectful of Aes Sedai (even mentions how glad he'd be to get rid of the Aes Sedai), and never seemed OVERLY interested in women (Nalesean was always talking about women and barmaids), although he mentions having had relationships with women before. But he's about the last of Mat's cohorts that would stare slack jawed at cleavage, let alone an Aes Sedai's. Again, just an opportunity to make a joke, even if it's not appropriate to the characters involved in it. Even poor Joline was out of character. There was also a lot of eye rolling between Mat and Talmanes, and I don't think I recall eyes ever being rolled in WoT before. In any case, I don't mean to write a dissertation on the subject, but some people still insist that there was no difference, and I think this really does indicate otherwise. Whether you say the difference is in the character, or the writing style, makes no difference. It is there. I think BS tried to keep the core of the characters, but he seemed to struggle with hitting the right note for humor in the WoT world. And no I didn't sit and write all this write this minute, I'd been making notes since I first read TGS and immediately was hit with how drastically different the character had been written.
  4. Isn't that pretty much a given fact by now? I mean... it's been foreshadowed to death. That's a pretty arbitrary statistic, and kind of ludicrous really. 99% of the readers of ANY book are never going to share the same opinion, even if it is yours. ;) I do agree with Jonn, as I've told him personally. The change in Mat is in the way he's WRITTEN, not in some change that is perceived to have happened to his personality. What is the big chatechism between the end of KoD and the beginning of TGS? He married Tuon and sent her away, but he was basically resigned to that fact throughout that entire book, and we had plenty of POV of him in that book to see how he felt about it. In any case, finally completing a ceremony that you knew was inevitable isn't enough to turn one person into a completely different person. (Let alone enough to completely, radically change a friend as well -- Talmanes.) To those who say that Mat didn't change, I daresay you haven't read Mat's sections in previous books as frequently or as closely as those MANY of us who are uncomfortable about the change. If you spell his name "Matt", that's a pretty good indication that you're not paying close enough attention. And frankly Vambram, if you peruse the threads on this board, or on any of the many other discussion sites going right now, back when people were just starting to finish the book, you will find many, many people who noted the difference in the way BS wrote Mat and the way RJ did. Some people may say "I noticed the difference, but it didn't bother me." Or "I noticed the difference, but I still love the book." And that's fine. I didn't mind the book myself. But I can't condone writing Mat as if he were a 21st century character, and making such a complete switcheroo with Talmanes. And the point is that acting like no one else sees a difference between KoD Mat and TGS Mat, just because YOU don't see a difference, doesn't fly. Too many people have also noted the anomaly for it to be nit-pickers or arbitrary complainers. I felt Mat was written like.... perhaps above-average fanfic. RJ had a deft hand with the humorous running joke of "I'm not going to do such-and-such. I'm not going to do it. No way will I do it. Nope!" when you know they're going to do it in the end. He used it with most of the characters at one point or another. BS hasn't mastered that, for me, yet. I didn't find it funny, just obvious. The section about Mat creating the aliases would have been amusing if it wasn't SO out-of-character. It also read as a really contemporary thing to do. Mat has never liked writing, I can't see him sitting down and writing pages of backstory in this setting. It doesn't even really make sense in his plan--it wasn't necessary. The scene was JUST put in for a laugh, but it was way out of place. What, did Mat take a creative writing course at some point along the way? Just because you enjoyed or really loved the book, or really appreciate BS for writing the book (not like hundreds of other authors wouldn't have leaped at the opportunity anyhow, so it's not like he did us some favor), doesn't mean that you have to act like the book was written flawlessly. BS said he wasn't going to try to mimic RJ's style because it would be disrespectful (how again?), but I think that was a tactical mistake. For the sake of the fans and the unity of the series, now and years and years in the future when some kid in a futuristic library picks up EotW and starts this series, I think he should have attempted to preserve one continuous voice throughout the rest of the series.
  5. I think from the beginning they will be cheating. The 'Finns prohibit certain items that the trio are certain to bring/use (a.k.a. fire, music, iron) See: "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind." Birgitte also acknowledged to Perrin that you have to break the rules to beat them. So I think it's pretty obvious they will be breaking the rules any way they can. I don't have a problem with that, morally. ;-) The question is how exactly will they smuggle those things in, or what will they be--a device for making light, musical instrument, and iron. Aludra's matches seem an obvious choice for the 'device for making light.' Thom has his harp of course, but that seems like a pretty obvious object... 'Finns: Do you have any musical instruments? Guys: Nope, not a one. 'Finns: But, isn't that a harp? Guys: Oh, er. Um. Well. Where did THAT come from? 'Finns: *breathe* The iron could be any number of things I guess. Most weapons like knives or swords would be steel, which apparently worked the first time Mat went through the doorway. Which begs the question, do the 'Finns have a way of knowing if someone is lying about possession of such things, or do they just take the person at their word?
  6. I don't want to see the whole POV of Avi going through the columns, but I do want to know what she sees there for sure. Probably won't be too much to reveal, though, inasmuch as Rand pretty much Spoiler-ed that for the rest of the Aiel. Some people had mentioned her possibly finding "The Song" that the Tinkers search for, except... The Song isn't really lost. It's just that Tinkers don't know what it is. WE know what it is. Will they bother to "fix" the earth before TG, when it probably will get jacked again? You have to go through Rand, Avi, Loial, the Ogiers to get to that point. I'd rather use what little word count we have left for something more interesting :-\ I can't wait to see Morgase's return to Caemlyn, and I hope it's not in some lame flashback or aside mention. I don't think it will be, Morgase has to have some personal resolution, upon learning she was under the thumb of one of the Forsaken, and marry Tallanvor. And come to terms with her daughter knocked up by the Dragon Reborn! Maybe once Morgase gets rid of her emotional baggage and meets back up with Elayne and goes through the shock, anger, acceptance of Elayne's relationship with Rand, Elayne will pass word on to Egwene, via T'A'R, and Egwene will pass word on to Gawyn via pillow talk, and Gawyn can stop being a first class jerk. And of course, we should get the more in-depth recounting of Perrin meeting up with the Whitecloaks--hopefully including Galad's recognition and revelation of Morgase, and of course Berelain and Galad getting it on. Galad should be challenge enough to keep Berelain interested. I think the next book needs to move into Moiraine's rescue pretty quickly, because she needs some time to come up to speed and reunite satisfactorily with Rand and confront the other Aes Sedai (a.k.a. Cadsuane) who's manipulating him. Hopefully she doesn't come out of the tower and just decide to retire and run off with Thom! (She saw a vision about marrying Thom, so presuming she doesn't do that immediately after her return to the real world, it could be an indication that she and he will survive TG...) I feel like the Seanchan either have to have some shattering change in their policy about channelers or they'll have to retreat to Seanchan after TG. They seem pretty comfortable in Randland right now, and the peoples they've conquered also seem content. The big conflict, really stressed in this book, was their feeling about channelers. Will someone finally unequivocally reveal that the sul'dam can channel? Will it break them? If the answer to those questions is yes, will that "encourage" them to ally at least temporarily with Rand? I wouldn't argue against most of the book being from Logain's POV though, either. In all seriousness, the BT showdown between Logain and Taim could be during TG itself. Taim could launch a "surprise!behind you" sneak attack with his loyal DF Asha'man while Rand is otherwise occupied at the battle front, but Logain stomps him down like an insect. I'm afraid that for the rest of the series, characterization will take a back burner, simply due to the sheer weight of what still has to be fulfilled. If the last book is going to basically be TG (and I desperately hope some good resolution after the fact!! don't you dare leave us hangin'), then this next book has a LOT of stuff to get through to get us to that point. It should be enjoyable, if a lot of it isn't done in passing. Like: Elayne: Hey mom, wasn't it great when we were reunited and you found out I was pregnant with Rand's babies? Morgase: Good times.
  7. There was some plot movement, mostly concerning the White Tower. We resolved the plot line of the division, had the fulfillment of Egwene's Dream, and as a bonus got to see it purged of the Black Ajah, which was cool. Beyond that, two Forsaken were dispatched. The Prophet was finally killed (which was more of a relief than a huge plot development, as we all knew it would happen sooner or later--Faile's killing him actually seemed more of an expedient for the author than for the character, lol). The Seanchan raid of the Tower was exciting, but other than that I don't recall any "climactic battles". If this book had been placed earlier in the series, I would think it would be OK. But with only two books left in the entire series... I thought maybe a little bit more might be moved into place before TG. It was still a fast and exciting read, though. I guess there's only so much they can squeeze into one book. I mean, some things we've been waiting for for a while were only mentioned in brief passing. Perrin meeting up with the Whitecloaks (I'm certain has to be expanded in flashback POV in the next book), Rand and others finally finding out that Morgase is alive... I'm really look forward to Morgase reuniting with Elayne. Can't wait for that. Not to mention Moiraine's rescue. With all that was mentioned of Moiraine this book, I'm surprised it wasn't set up for her rescue in the next book. But it's not too far from where Mat currently sits. I wonder if Verin's instructions will pertain to that, or... something completely different?
  8. Just finished a few minutes ago, and it's 1:00 am here. I'll be back on tomorrow to really read through what others have said/are saying, but I have a few thoughts to put down before I pass out on my keyboard here. Keeping in mind that due to a major personality I flaw I basically spoiled all the major revelations and plot points before I was halfway through the book, so nothing came as a "big shock" to me and I don't have that "OMG what just happened?!" reaction as I finally set the book down. I'm more thoughtful than stunned I guess. 1. NEEDS MOAR LOGAIN. 2. I think it was a major miscalculation for BS to decide to not ape RJ's style and instead write in his own style. I haven't read many of the interviews, so don't know what his reasoning was with going this route. I hope it was no "I didn't think I could do RJ's writing style justice" type crud, because dude... at least try. I assumed that trying to preserve the voice or tone of the series for the sake of continuity for the fans was the logical thing to do, but I guess I'm missing where it's better for the series to just veer off in a different style? IDK. It pulled me out of the story, the new-fangled, modern words/phrases/expressions that were dropped in occasionally. RJ tended to use the same phrases and descriptions consistently (which I used to resent, but now long for), and so when something is new it really, really stands out in the context of WOT. After 11 books in a consistent voice, to just suddenly change it (with obviously tragic extenuating circumstances, granted) is jarring, to say the least. I feel like it would have been a better move to try to imitate RJ's style as much as possible. I know there are others that have voiced similar concerns. I don't want to disrespect Brian's work, per se. But I am a fan of the series, so am just concerned/disappointed with that. Maybe it won't be so jarring in the last few books. *shrug* We all know that I'm mostly referring to: 3. Mat. Who is this guy? He is not Mat. I think maybe it's one of the Forsaken pretending to be Mat--only way you can account for his suspicious personality change. He is somewhat amusing, but even what's amusing is out of place. The phrases he's saying, they seem to modern. He's writing pages of detailed alias backstory for his minions? I thought Mat had a childish, blocky writing style anyhow, a.k.a. doesn't write much. That chapter would have been funny for a different series altogether. But I resented it here (OK, I did find it funny, but it was the same feeling you get when you read good fanfic--you like it, but you know it isn't "real" and so it doesn't matter). It felt like BS had a funny notion and decided to go with it, even though it was too contemporary in its punchline. Aside from that whole chapter, Mat's voice was just wrong throughout. Almost trying too hard to hit the effortless Mat humor. Also, Talmanes was one of my favorite characters, stoic and silent, with obviously a very DRY sense of humor. Now I'm being told at least three times how he has a twinkle in his eye, and he's turned into some chatty cathy all of a sudden. Trying to reconcile Talmanes from this book, with the really cool guy who meets with Egwene in TPoD. No luck. Sigh. End rant. Just very disappointed as I used to love Mat's character most of all. 4. So what actually happened in this book? Major developments that I can think of: Semirhage eliminated. Graendal eliminated. (I'm not buying the "maybe she's not really dead" theories, sorry.) Seanchan attack WT. WT reunited. Black Ajah purged. Rand gets really bad but then becomes alright again in the end. (Sort of a non-development at the end of the day.) Masema killed. Other minor occurences include: Siuan Bonding Bryne; Egwene and Gawyn "together", vicinity-wise; Perrin and Rand together, vicinity-wise; Rand meets w/ Tuon, but nothing helpful occurs; Tuon officially becomes empress; Avi graduates to WO. Nothing from Elayne's group, hardly anything useful from Perrin (is there ever? har har, j/k), for all of the shenanigans with "Mat", nothing really happened there. Did I mention the completely shameful lack of LOGAIN? Also seemed to be, overall, less of the Forsaken/DF POVs. Just little glimpses here and there. (The chapter with Moridin and Rand was one of my favs though--really, just... COOL.) What am I forgetting? The pace of the book was good, but when I looked back I'm still wondering what really happened. I feel like the intensity racheted up, snowballing along to TG in fine fashion. Speaking of pace: 5. I know someone somewhere was complaining about the book structure, but I actually liked it. RJ would do the chapters by character arc, which is OK except if you get caught in a dull arc and can't get out. I prefer the one chapter, bouncing around from here to there. I think that's what made the pace seem faster, honestly. Also, SIGNIFICANTLY less POVs from minor characters that we'd never heard of/will never heard from again. I kind of missed some of the non-essential characterizations. That seems to be stripped away in view of the looming storm of TG, but it's almost better that way, because in times of crisis, that's probably what people are. Just the core of their personalities, doing what they have to do. OK, so that went on way longer than I anticipated. To quote Mean Girls, "I just have a lot of feelings..." Don't think I didn't like the book, just digesting and musing. Looking forward to discussing it more in-depth in the coming months!
  9. Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength. OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength. I dont think that that particular discrepency will come to the attentions of the characters. Not until after TG at least. Anyone else suspect that women can heal men better, and men can heal women better? Logain seems to have retained his strength after healing.... Maybe if a man were to heal a woman, she would retain hers... I'm pretty sure that's a proven fact (that's why I mentioned it above). I believe RJ confirmed it at some point.
  10. Probably just as well she didn't, because then Setalle wouldn't have been restored to her full strength. OOT: I wonder if Siuan or Leane would like to be Stilled again and then Healed again by a man, to regain full strength.
  11. Um' date=' Dr. Evil... Sir, strictly speaking, a million dollars will not go very far these days. Virtucon alone makes over 9 billion dollars a year. [/color']
  12. That's a good point Razor. Rush hour would be renamed "Death Hour of Unravelling Threads with teh Balefire WTF." I would probably have to Travel to work. I'd use a skimming platform though, because I wouldn't want to get there too abruptly. My chosen platform would be... my bed I think. I'll just roll out of bed onto my desk. Literally.
  13. Well, the idea originally was more "what would you have done TODAY with the OP" (i.e., slashed the tires of the asshat next to me at the red light for cutting me off) but everyone got so darned excited about taking over the world and evilling their way to fame and fortune, I didn't have the heart to correct them! :lol:
  14. I think there will be wholesale changes to the basic current structure of the Aes Sedai, because the male Aes Sedai will be welcomed back into the flock, so to speak. I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if these dorky "ajah" systems went away altogether.
  15. How do we know they didnt? Perhaps another Forsaken ordered the deaths of Barthanes and Herid Fel. Because none of them' date=' to my knowledge, has even acknowledged the existence of this gholam, let alone remarked anything slightly suspicious. IIRC. Until I read a POV wherein one of them says that they have sent the gholam off on some task, I remain skeptical. Too many IFs on this line of reasoning, in any case.[/color']
  16. What are you theories about what will happen to the Aes Sedai after TG? With the Taint being cleansed, it seems obvious to me that the Aes Sedai need to welcome the men back into the ranks. If they want to maximize the full potential of channeling, they need to work together, as in the AoL. So will they all move into a now co-ed White Tower? Will the Tower somehow be destroyed? What will happen to the ajahs? Will they even still be called Aes Sedai? Will Rand become the new leader of them (I think that's controversial, since he's nowhere near the most experienced channeler around)? If so, will he still be called the "Amyrlin Seat", or something eles?
  17. There's probably an EotW topic in the Structured Discussion forum. They keep a tight rein over there to make sure they discussions don't wander OT. I know what you mean about LotR though. It's a good read (though I preder the Silm anyhoo), but it's really a "fun" read. That series is pretty somber, and I find it sad. Whereas, I tend to think of the WoT as light and silly (overall).
  18. This was my thought too. I think it will be mentioned' date=' but nothing will happen. If anything, I don't think Rand would let Cadsuane spank her, if he was there. He misses Moiraine and will be happy to see her back.[/color']
  19. Sammael tells Caridin that he will send "someone" to help him with the Aes Sedai. We later learn this is the gholam who shows up at the six-story house. But it's Birgitte, later on, who theorizes that the gholam must have survived in a stasis box (which Mat then passes on as his own info). But if Sammael did not find the gholam in a stasis box, and thus presumably having some sort of exclusive control over it, then why hadn't the other Forsaken utilized its services? Until after Sammael was dead?
  20. It seems unlikely, unless Elayne gives birth in the middle of the woods with no channelers around her at all. More likely, there will be at least one AS there who is somewhat proficient with Healing, and so she should be fine. OTOH, she may end up giving birth in the middle of TG, so who knows what could happen. I think she'll live though. Of Rand's harem, I would say Min is most likely to die, since she would only have, say, 20-30 years before she starts getting/looking old, while Rand and Avi and Elayne are still young. Then it will just be awkward as Rand slowly watches her wrinkle up and die. Plus, she has had a disproportionate amount of time with Rand. So I think she will die tragically, and Rand will live out his life married to Avi and Elayne.
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