Interesting Brandon tweet

[Bob T Dwarf]

But they stilled her. That's a bit extreme for one to be undercover. I just don't see her being an operative of the Shadow.

 

Who said anything about Leane being an operative of the shadow? The fact is, she is playing her own game outside of the what the main characters are doing. What is it? Will she add something important to one of the light side's goals? Is it something complete out of left field?

 

Being Black Aei Sedai is only one idea, and even if she were, I doubt the black sisters could have prevented her stilling in the mess that she got caught up in.

 

True. Even on Team Light, most of the players are in it for themselves and what ( they think ) they can get out of it. There is some slight awareness that they either hang together or they will surely all hang separately.

 

There is no real Team Dark. Just a collection of people who are planning to do nasty, vengeful things to everybody but themselves. They all lack cohesion, any regard for others, or any shared goal. It's entirely dog eat dog. If Leane is Dark she can expect no help from anyone "on her side" because no such person exists.

[The Fisher King]

One good question to ask may be: Who has Rand been around IN PERSON since gaining the Light Sight in TOM??

 

Could reduce potential candidates significantly.

 

 

Fish

[Bob T Dwarf]

One good question to ask may be: Who has Rand been around IN PERSON since gaining the Light Sight in TOM??

 

Could reduce potential candidates significantly.

 

 

Fish

 

What was the name of the city, Marador, Maradon, where whosis clawed his own eyes out and his wife jumped to her death? Neither of them even had direct sight of Rand that I know of and his post-VoG persona still caused them to lose it. I don't think it's safe for any Darksider to get within a country mile of the Dragon.

 

However, the Forsaken may be made of sterner stuff. I imagine we'll learn a lot by what happens when Rand shows up at Merrilor.

[Majsju]

Regarding Leane, if she is a DF, how did she manage to be the only Aes Sedai in the WT not retaking the Oaths?

[Dagon Thyne]

Verin?

 

Verin's motivations have already been revealed. She pretty much said everything when she died

 

I'm thinking it's either Taim, Alanna, or Fain

[Bob T Dwarf]

Regarding Leane, if she is a DF, how did she manage to be the only Aes Sedai in the WT not retaking the Oaths?

 

Excellent point.

 

There may be some weasly way to seem to take them but not really, but I wouldn't bet on it this late in the game. I'd say speculation about Leane being Dark is off-the-table.

[OptimusPrime]

Verin?

 

Verin's motivations have already been revealed. She pretty much said everything when she died

 

Aaaah but that woman Aviendha met in the Waste. Plus I didnt think for a second she told us everything before she died.

[Chesus]

We know Verin's motives. There are still questions regarding her many letters and other plots, but that's about it.

 

I don't think Leane is Dark. I also don't see much mystery about her motives. I'd be VERY surprised if she had some earth shaking secret to reveal this late in the game.

 

Alanna, on the other hand, is the very definition of mystery. Nearly every action on her part is questionable and we can only speculate on her motives. Verin would almost certainly HAVE to know if she was a Black, but by all indications she was not on the list given to Egwene. Maybe the revelation of her motives will not be so big in the end, but the build up has been there since damn near the beginning of the story.

[2RiversFan]

Alanna, on the other hand, is the very definition of mystery. Nearly every action on her part is questionable and we can only speculate on her motives. Verin would almost certainly HAVE to know if she was a Black, but by all indications she was not on the list given to Egwene. Maybe the revelation of her motives will not be so big in the end, but the build up has been there since damn near the beginning of the story.

 

Remember that Verin told Egwene that she knows she didn't catch all of the Blacks, only most of them. I think she was suspicious of Alannah all along. While they were in the 2Rivers, she warned Perrin not to trust Alannah; she may have had strong suspicions but never had them corroborated... Add the fact that Alannah ran from the Stone of Tear right before Rand returned after VoG, and the coincidences are pretty strongly indicating she's black. I'm still not positive that she is, because RJ has shown to include red herrings as well. I'm back to RAFO...

[Chesus]

She also had a letter from Verin. No indication of whether it was Rand's arrival or Verin's note that caused her flight from Tear. Can only speculate. It is possible that Verin missed on Alanna being Black.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Keep in mind, Jordan had the ability to make non-darkfriends as or even MORE dangerous to the heroes than darkfriends themselves. I do not disagree with anything said here so far, but I am a bit surprised that people are quick to ask, "Is (s)he a darkfriend? The proof says otherwise, so they cannot have hidden motives."

 

Up until now, even our "heroes" have trashed others doing what they secretly think is the "right thing". Heck, Egwene has all but said Nyneave has been corrupted by Rand, even though what Nyneave supports in Rand are good things. The fact that Nyneave says Rand is right on certain topics is proof enough she has been brain-washed, apparently.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Keep in mind, Jordan had the ability to make non-darkfriends as or even MORE dangerous to the heroes than darkfriends themselves. I do not disagree with anything said here so far, but I am a bit surprised that people are quick to ask, "Is (s)he a darkfriend? The proof says otherwise, so they cannot have hidden motives."

 

Up until now, even our "heroes" have trashed others doing what they secretly think is the "right thing". Heck, Egwene has all but said Nyneave has been corrupted by Rand, even though what Nyneave supports in Rand are good things. The fact that Nyneave says Rand is right on certain topics is proof enough she has been brain-washed, apparently.

 

Yes. A big theme in the books is how quick people are to judge and how little "evidence" we need to make those judgements.

 

Egwene "knows" the purity of her objectives when she excuses her own lack of total truthfulness on several occasions but even a hint of less than "truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth" from anyone else engenders instant suspicion from her.

 

Nobody in the whole series really talks to each other so, of course they don't listen to each other either. There is no really essential communication at any time.

 

Of course, if anybody did really communicate, this would have been the 5 or 6 book series that Jordan originally contracted for, and we would have known how it ended 15 years ago.

[Dreggs Morlock]

The funny thing is, as I get older, I am realizing the lack of communication is extremely realistic. Of the worst fights/disagreements I've been in with friends and family, 90% of them were due to communication and the lack there in.

 

Think about it...when you have been in an arguement, you rarely hear either party say, "I understand what you are saying. I just completely disagree." Usually the confrontation involves frosty silence or a screaming match.

[FarShainMael]

My guess would be Logain or Alanna.

 

And after reading this thread, I'm thinking Dyelin might be it, too.

 

Speaking of Dyelin, and Andor.. I have been wondering about Sylvase, who we first met in CoT15 (long after the Cleansing of saidin), in company with Arymilla.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/s/sylvase.html

 

This description of her is quite interesting:

 

She never smiled or frowned or showed any emotion at all that Elenia had ever detected, just kept an unvarying cowlike expression. Plainly, she had a cow’s wits, too. Arymilla kept Sylvase closer than she did Elenia or Naean

 

Sounds almost mindless, doesn't she? Later on, though, she seems to wake up a bit:

 

“If Luan and the others will not support you, what good will taking Caemlyn do?” Sylvase, Nasin's granddaughter and heir, spoke so seldom that the question came as a shock. Sturdy and not quite pretty, she usually had a vapid gaze, but her blue eyes appeared quite sharp at the moment. Everyone stared at her. That seemed not to faze her a bit. She toyed with a winecup, but Arymilla thought it no more than her second. “If we must fight the Borderlanders, why not accept Luan's truce so Andor can field its full strength unhindered by divisions?”

 

 

Again, later, she is 'shockingly' alert:

 

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognized. A single enameled brooch, a red star and silver sword on glittering black, appeared to be her only jewelry. But why was Sylvase Caeren being brought to her? A pretty woman with alert blue eyes that held steady on Elayne's face, she was Lord Nasin's heir, not the High Seat of Caeren.

 

“Caeren stands for Trakand,” Sylvase said shockingly as soon as she reined in. The bond echoed Elayne's startlement. Arymilla gaped at Sylvase as if she were mad. “My grandfather suffered a seizure, Arymilla,” the young woman said calmly, “and my cousins fell over themselves affirming me as High Seat. I will publish it, Elayne, if you wish.”

 

“That might be best.” Elayne said slowly. Publication would make her support irrevocable. This would not be the first time a House had switched sides, even without the death of a High Seat, but best to be certain. “Trakand welcomes Caeren warmly, Sylvase.” Best not to be too distant, either. She knew little of Sylvase Caeren.

 

Sylvase nodded, accepting. So she had at least a degree of intelligence. She knew she would not be fully trusted until she demonstrated her loyalty by sending out the proclamations of support. “If you trust me a little, may I have custody of Arymilla, Naean and Elenia? In the Royal Palace, of course, or wherever you choose to house me. I believe my new secretary, Master Lounalt, may be able to convince them to throw their support to you.”

 

For some reason, Naean gave a loud cry and would have fallen from her saddle if a Guardsman had not grabbed her arm to support her. Arymilla and Elenia both appeared ready to sick up.

 

“I think not,” Elayne said. No proposed conversation with a secretary produced those reactions. It seemed Sylvase had a hard core to her.

 

Dyelin begins to wonder about her:

 

Dyelin was already standing at the foot of the dais's steps, watching Sylvase converse with Conail and Catalyn while Branlet and Perival listened closely. Perival raked his fingers through his hair and nodded. Did Dyelin have questions about Sylvase, too?

...

“A truce? Are we at war, Luan? Has someone declared for the throne that I haven't heard of?” Six sets of eyes swung to Dyelin, who grunted.

 

“Fools. I told you and told you, and you wouldn't believe me. Perhaps you'll believe this. When Sylvase, Karind and Lir sent their proclamations of support, I sent my own. Taravin stands for Trakand, and the whole of Andor will know it soon enough.”

 

I'm wondering if Sylvase is mindtrapped. I'm further wondering if Lanfear's choice of 'Sylvie' as a name when she meets Egwene in T'A'R in the Heart of the Stone and tells her about Callandor (TDR,Ch27) is not a coincidence. And I wonder about her specific interest in Andor and Elayne..

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sylvase is someone who was forced by her position in family hierarchy to appear dull, boring, and compliant.

 

But, as circumstances change and her position improves, she demonstrates that she is really none of those things. She's a woman who plays bad cards very well, minimizing her losses and maximizing her gains at every opportunity.

 

Whether she can be trusted to remain loyal as the situation shifts first this way then that is what remains to be seen.

 

I think she will be. Not because of any great love for Elayne or House Trakand, but because she's smart enough to know that now is no time for rocking any boats.

 

 

In a book with umpteen thousand characters, many of whom also have more than one alias, I'm not reading anything special into the fact that at one point Lanfear chooses to call herself Sylvie. We also have a Karede and a Kadere, and they could not be more different people. Even Jordan ran out of entirely new names and began going with variations on a theme out of desperation.

[Duskfire]

Surely it would be Taim? He has shown enough in the series to be more then just a standard evil dude; i.e his occasional flashes of sympathy with Rand, etc etc. Fleshing him out would be awesome.

[msbee]

 

I'm wondering if Sylvase is mindtrapped. I'm further wondering if Lanfear's choice of 'Sylvie' as a name when she meets Egwene in T'A'R in the Heart of the Stone and tells her about Callandor (TDR,Ch27) is not a coincidence. And I wonder about her specific interest in Andor and Elayne..

Ah, but you missed the quote that made me sit up even more. In TOM ch 23, Elaine is testing a copy of Mat's medalion during a play, with an expressionless Sylvase amongst the guests.

 

“Thank you for the invitation, Your Majesty,” Sylvase said evenly, her voice a faintly eerie monotone. “It was most enlightening.”

“Enlightening?” Elayne said. “I should hope that it was enjoyable.”

Sylvase said nothing...

 

Did she see Elayne's weaves? That one still makes me wander whether this is in fact Cyndanne.

Trouble is, I'm not sure whether her motivations qualify as 'long-hidden' and I think we'll hear more from her anyway.

 

I certainly want to know more about Taim, but I want to know the 'how' rather than the 'why' with him

Alanna probably gets to be at the top of my list.

[Sharaman]

We know Sylvase isn't Cyndane because Brandon confirmed she wasn't.

If she can Channel though, she is skilled enough to know the masking weave that prevents other women from figuring she can Channel.

[msbee]

We know Sylvase isn't Cyndane because Brandon confirmed she wasn't.

If she can Channel though, she is skilled enough to know the masking weave that prevents other women from figuring she can Channel.

Thanks, but can you provide a link?

I can't find it

[FarShainMael]

@msbee: thanks, I missed that one! Even more curious.

 

We know Sylvase isn't Cyndane because Brandon confirmed she wasn't.

If she can Channel though, she is skilled enough to know the masking weave that prevents other women from figuring she can Channel.

Thanks, but can you provide a link?

I can't find it

 

Me too please.

[Dream]

See here.

[msbee]

@ Dream - thanks for the quote, at least I can stop wandering now

 

@ FarShainMael - I've just realised, we're neighbours! I'm in High Wycombe, Bucks.

[mbuehner]

He said Sylvase is not a Forsaken... which doesn't rule out Taim.

 

- Proximity- Andor. Taim can pop in and out from the BT.

- Expressionless- they both are.

- Motive- Taim liked the look of Elaynes backside, so he would obviously want to be around her a lot

- Channeling- Taim is a man so Elayne can't tell he can channel. Elayne assumes Sylvase cannot channel. Ipso Facto, and by the transitive property- Sylvase can probably channel Saidin.

- Nasin- Sylvase grandfather died of a seizure at an opportune time. Interesting timing... for murder, Taim style.

- Alter Ego- We don't know who Taim is impersonating yet and since it must be someone, and since Sylvase is someone, it is probably Sylvase.

 

Try poking a hole in that, Logic.

[FarShainMael]

See here.

 

Thanks. I'd completely forgotten about that thread. And I even posted to it < facepalm>

 

So Sylvase is not a Forsaken. But I'm pretty sure she's a baddie.

 

@msbee: I know High Wycombe well, I was at school there for a while (more years ago than I care to contemplate )

 

@mbuehner: for some reason you remind me of Sir Humphrey Appleby..

[msbee]

What about Enalia?

I have some serious suspicions about Enalia...

 

@ FarShainMael - I've sent you a PM so as not to derail this thread any more