[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[bgrishinko]

I don't get it. I give you a name A, Levy gives you name B... I get result that A has B's alignment. I'm vetted? I'm guilty? Huh?

 

Doesn't matter to me now anyway since I know I got redirected and only Levy knows who I really looked at. no sense in not saying since it apparently means nothing. I attempted to view Soy.

[Turin Turambar]

well he wasn't on the lynch so that's a plus I guess

but he also has less posts than Nyn

buuuut he replaced Arlow (I included his only post here)

sooo I'd call all that neutral

 

Checking in. VOTE Ed

joke/random vote Ed

not much to see here

 

Hello everyone. Glad to be here. I will catch up and let you know what I think about this here situation.

Turin's introduction

again not much to see

 

Thanks Mmmmmmmmmeesh. It really is exciting to play in a WoT themed game.It's getting late for me so just a few quick notes. First off, Unvote As I do not know why Arlow had placed his vote.The entire interplay between Nolder and Soy and then Nolder and Pandy was interesting. I think there might be something going on with Nol and Soy. The argument did seem a little weird. Added to Nol's nearly condescnding brush off of Pandy leads me to question him.( I did like the semi A Few Good Men ref tho)At this point I will vote Nolder.

I wasn't overly concerned with this vote at the time but now I'm wondering if I might get a more detailed explanation?

what exactly about our argument seemed weird? and as I didn't even question your vote before now do you still find my "brush off" of Pandy scummy? I am assuming you found it scummy anyway since if you were just probing you could have said these things without the vote

 

Red and Mmmmmmmmeesh, my only excuse for not mentioning Nolder earlier is that I was Arlow until yesterday.

not really notable though I'm kind of wondering what Red and Meesh said

maybe I'll check later if/when I reread either of them

 

BG, your case against Levity is that she is too polite? Interesting, if odd.

I wish you would have commented further

it is interesting and odd, but do you agree with it? disagree?

give some opinions people! take some stands!

 

That's probably fair enough. My only (bad) defense is that I still don't really get the whole D1 tricks for casing folks on the small things. It takes me a little longer to figure things out. For me to be all "FoS at player X for being the fourth person to post about topic Z." Is not me and feels wrong. Even commenting on the Nol/Soyo thing is a total crapshoot. I guess it is about laying a groundwork of previous statements to look at later. I am better at analyzing the history of the posts with refrence than digging out the clues as it were. All that said it has been overall quiet lately with the obvious exceptions that most are aware of. I'll read it again and see what I can find and try to give some thoughts.

IMHO part of D1 is to make a somewhat big deal out of little or even nothing

kick the anthill and see what it stirs up

 

First Hi Tina. Welcome to the game.Second. Unvote: Vote BG for consolidation. Ledinna or maybe Nolder for tomorrow.Finally, vote No Deadline. Let's just take care of business.

this was already addressed by Key and yeah it's still weird

I'm especially worried that you seem so concerned about having a good reason to vote someone earlier but now you're willing to just throw your vote out to achieve a lynch

 

Very funny Soy. That whole capital code might catch on in certain circles. Off to bed now. Hopefully Ledinna will have posted by then.

interesting that your vote is on BG but you're concerned about Ledinna posting

if you want BG lynched why don't you say anything to make people switch to BG?

I'm getting the feeling you just didn't want to be on Ledinna's lynch

like scum separating themselves so they can't be connected as easily...

hmmm

 

Morning that is.*facepalm* obviously sleepy. good night all.

nothing of note

Sorry to take so long about this. I tried to get here last night but didn't make it. I'll try to address the pertinent items.

1.) my initial vote for Nolder: in general your posting was giving me a scummy vibe. The interaction with Pandy particularly felt that you were just saying that you were not going to give his questions the respect of an answer. It just seemed scummy to me.

2.) the polite thing: I try to be polite at all times. I generally even refrain from using the word scum in these posts.( and now I've done it twice here)I do disagree with using that as a tell. At least until you know something of the person themselves. This may be considered meta but I would say it is more gathering history. I will try to be more complete in relating my thought processes and the conclusions I draw.

3.) D1 tactics: fair enough. I don't like to make big moves in RL without the facts. This is a game and I will take that advice in the future to mix it up a bit more.

4.)my BG vote: I had ben voting Nol, He was not looking to be getting much attention. BG was pinging me from the same reasons that most everyone has already stated. I voted No deadline cause I thought we would be able to lynch BG without the pressure of a deadline. I still don't truly believe his claim. I agree with Mmeesh in that it just doesn't smell right.

5.) When I got back to look at the game BG had "claimed" and Dinna was at L-1. It was pretty clear unless she had some goood answers she would be lynched. I wanted to hear her response as it has seemed that everything was happening here when I was away. If her answer was unacceptable to me I was willing to vote her but wanted to hear what she had to say.

 

Sorry this is so long. I hate long posts personally. Also welcome Loki, and Dinna(2.0) to the game.

 

I must say I am a bit confused about the whole BG-Levity redirecting thing. I gotta read it again to see if I can make heads or tails of it.

[Ledinna Sedai]

Now Dinna 2.0 is here :)

 

Levity's explanation about the re-directing role gave me a towny feeling from her. In the point where she for the first time said maybe to have caught BG from a lie, I had the thought that Lev had a some kind of a role that she was unsure to reveal, and the explanation post just confirmed that.

Unless some new kind of info comes, I'd rather think her as a townie.

 

I do see the option of BG and Lev as in the mafia team, but what I've seen so far doesn't convince me of it.

[SBoydW]

I don't get it. I give you a name A, Levy gives you name B... I get result that A has B's alignment. I'm vetted? I'm guilty? Huh? Doesn't matter to me now anyway since I know I got redirected and only Levy knows who I really looked at. no sense in not saying since it apparently means nothing. I attempted to view Soy.

 

 

To itilicized... ahhh that's how it works... n/m then i said that would only work if I understood the role peoperly... evidently I didn't.

 

Bold - All you had to do was ask.

[loki redfern]

i say trial by ordeal for grins.

good for town = 1

bad for town = 0

 

lynching grins

best case senario: grins is mafia, we get to hi five each other, and the real finder can relax and get on with their job. 1

 

worst case senario: grins if the finder, we shuffle about and look at our feet uncomfortably, but given the amount of back up roles, im pretty sure there is a backup finder out there, on lynching, i imagfine it would activate, so we go back to having an unclaimed finder. 1

 

lynching grins = 2

 

letting grins live

best case senario: grins is vetted somehow, as mafia 1

 

medium case senario: grins is vetted somehow, as the finder. we get finder results. however, with a claimed finder, the results will be easy for roles like liteys to manipulate. enter wifomery making grins at best a confirmed townie. 0.5

 

worst case senario: grins is mafia and playing us 0

 

 

 

lynching grins = 2

 

vetting grins = 1.5

 

i still lean towards grins being mafia, but even if not i think it makes 33% more sence to lynch him at this point.

[Niniel]

I´m 80% sure that BG is lying. Sorry Wombat, I couldn´t resist it. / Will try to never mention it again.

 

Aren´t we missing a lot of players?

[Sakaea]

Yeah, seems like we are missing several people. *pokes the lurkers*

[SBoydW]

I got ninja'd that time too, Meesh. I don't think the points against BG are really relevant at this point. An uncountered Finder claim takes precedence, to me. If he isn't the Finder, kudos to our real finder for staying hidden. However, I think he is our real finder, and Levity is at the top of my list for scum atm. Everyone voting for BG is on that list, actually.

 

So are you saying that just because someone claims finder, it wipes their slate clean and all their scummy actions no longer have any bearing on if you see them as scummy or not?

 

Just want to clarify that statement.

 

And what other than his, suspicious at best, claim makes you believe he's the finder, especially with all non-findery type actions??

[Sakaea]

No, it doesn't necessarily wipe their slate clean, but it does throw everything into a different perspective. It's kind of a gut feeling, why I believe him. It's hard to explain, but I've been in enough games with BG that when he says certain things I like to think I can tell if he's lying or not:-/ We'll see if I'm right or not, LOL

[Turin Turambar]

I stated above I don't really believe BG's finder claim. it looks to me that Levity was not familiar with the DM mechanics and so got confused by her result and BG's statement. I also think that Loki made some decent points towards his lynch. With that I think I'll stay with voting BG.

 

 

Vote: BG

[mmeeshal]

Wow...crazy Levity. Caused a lot of confusion. lol

 

Also, didn't catch the stuff on BG yesterday, so Meesh for now. :P

Scummy Ed is scummy.... Go back and read, ninny.

 

Anyway, more people should weigh in, just saying. Especially those who are around, but not saying anything..... You're the next ones on my list, btw.

[Nynaeve]

I still stick to my last post. I feel something is off about BG's behavior and so I can't manage to swallow down his role claim. I haven't played with him enough in the past to get a sense if he's lying or not so that's not a factor for me. So my vote stays where it is unless I see an UBER compelling reason to change it.

 

As far as Levity goes, she did get very confusing but her explanation seems sincere to me.

 

 

 

Nyn

[keyholder21]

I haven't seen anything to deter my Day 1 feelings. Vote BG. I have a lot of catching up to do but I'm at work right now so my time is limited. I'll have more to say either on my lunch break or when I get home around 7am (EST).

 

 

I think we have to take a shot on vetting BG here. I think if we don't it's going to take up to much attention in the future with us questioning whether or not we can trust anything he says, and if we can trust any of his reveals. I think BG should reveal who he got info on, and Levity can confirm if that's who he should have gotten info on or not.

 

That is if I understood her role correctly... Levity did you control who BG got diverted to or did you just say "re-direct his role" and it was random?

 

I know that if Lev does confirm BG is fider, BG will have confirmed a townie (don't reveal roles if you got them). That actually wouldn't be a bad thing in my mind, because the Mafia already know who isn't on their team so it's not like we'd be telling them something they didn't know. Also it's one less person to have to look at.

 

This is, of course, if BG and Lev aren't gambitting us (meesh mentioned this earlier I believe). I could see that too. It would make sense why BG is delaying telling us who he found, and why Lev floundered so long about her role reveal, could possibly have been brewing this plan up.

 

*Edited for spelling.

 

So you vote for him and then you post about wanting to try and vet him but don't unvote? Fishy. How can Levity confirm him as finder?

 

...Actually, I wonder if she could switch him with herself. Hm.

 

I was really confused by Levity's posts for awhile. Pretty sure I get it now though.

 

I am really leery of lynching an uncontested finder even with the suspicion that's surrounding BG right now.

 

Ed - vote for Meesh out of nowhere? What the heck?

[John E. Kelley]

BG may be acting strangely, but he is still claiming cop. It's a big, steaming pile of WIFOM, but the way I see it, we should err on the side of caution for now. Lynching our finder on D2 would seriously hinder us and if Levity is what she says she is, we still have the ability to vet him. We can afford one more day to find out the truth of his claim, but if we act too soon, we have to finish the game without our cop.

 

Now he may be lying, not saying one way or the other what he's doing, but with no CC at this point (and I'm damn sure NOT calling for the real cop to CC if BG's lying) I just think we'd be making a much bigger mistake to maybe lynch our Cop than to wait one more day to see if Lev and the rest of us can either catch him in a lie, or prove he is what he says he is.

[WWWwombat]

I stated above I don't really believe BG's finder claim. it looks to me that Levity was not familiar with the DM mechanics and so got confused by her result and BG's statement. I also think that Loki made some decent points towards his lynch. With that I think I'll stay with voting BG.

 

 

Vote: BG

 

This seems very sheepish to me. Combined with something I read previously, it is enough for me to vote you.

 

Vote: Turin

[WWWwombat]

BG may be acting strangely, but he is still claiming cop. It's a big, steaming pile of WIFOM, but the way I see it, we should err on the side of caution for now. Lynching our finder on D2 would seriously hinder us and if Levity is what she says she is, we still have the ability to vet him. We can afford one more day to find out the truth of his claim, but if we act too soon, we have to finish the game without our cop.

 

Now he may be lying, not saying one way or the other what he's doing, but with no CC at this point (and I'm damn sure NOT calling for the real cop to CC if BG's lying) I just think we'd be making a much bigger mistake to maybe lynch our Cop than to wait one more day to see if Lev and the rest of us can either catch him in a lie, or prove he is what he says he is.

 

I agree completely. Can't lynched an uncountered cop without evidence.

[SBoydW]

I haven't seen anything to deter my Day 1 feelings. Vote BG. I have a lot of catching up to do but I'm at work right now so my time is limited. I'll have more to say either on my lunch break or when I get home around 7am (EST).

 

 

I think we have to take a shot on vetting BG here. I think if we don't it's going to take up to much attention in the future with us questioning whether or not we can trust anything he says, and if we can trust any of his reveals. I think BG should reveal who he got info on, and Levity can confirm if that's who he should have gotten info on or not.

 

That is if I understood her role correctly... Levity did you control who BG got diverted to or did you just say "re-direct his role" and it was random?

 

I know that if Lev does confirm BG is fider, BG will have confirmed a townie (don't reveal roles if you got them). That actually wouldn't be a bad thing in my mind, because the Mafia already know who isn't on their team so it's not like we'd be telling them something they didn't know. Also it's one less person to have to look at.

 

This is, of course, if BG and Lev aren't gambitting us (meesh mentioned this earlier I believe). I could see that too. It would make sense why BG is delaying telling us who he found, and why Lev floundered so long about her role reveal, could possibly have been brewing this plan up.

 

*Edited for spelling.

 

So you vote for him and then you post about wanting to try and vet him but don't unvote? Fishy. How can Levity confirm him as finder?

 

...Actually, I wonder if she could switch him with herself. Hm.

 

I was really confused by Levity's posts for awhile. Pretty sure I get it now though.

 

I am really leery of lynching an uncontested finder even with the suspicion that's surrounding BG right now.

 

Ed - vote for Meesh out of nowhere? What the heck?

 

Yes. On the off chance that I'm wrong, I do not want to lynch the finder. How is that fishy? I didn't take my vote off him because I don't think he's the finder.

 

And the whole Lev vetting him thing was a misunderstanding. She can't vet him.

[loki redfern]

BG may be acting strangely, but he is still claiming cop. It's a big, steaming pile of WIFOM, but the way I see it, we should err on the side of caution for now. Lynching our finder on D2 would seriously hinder us and if Levity is what she says she is, we still have the ability to vet him. We can afford one more day to find out the truth of his claim, but if we act too soon, we have to finish the game without our cop.

 

Now he may be lying, not saying one way or the other what he's doing, but with no CC at this point (and I'm damn sure NOT calling for the real cop to CC if BG's lying) I just think we'd be making a much bigger mistake to maybe lynch our Cop than to wait one more day to see if Lev and the rest of us can either catch him in a lie, or prove he is what he says he is.

 

I agree completely. Can't lynched an uncountered cop without evidence.

 

1) taking all wifom options into consideration, isnt it better to lynch the finder (this goes on the assumption of my next question

 

2)so you dont think there is a backup? why? when there seems to be a backup on the other roles?

 

3) er how? unless she redirected it onto grins everynight and waited to see if he claimed mafia one night

 

4) you keep saying this like your hinting they should, do you?

 

 

i think with the backup roles we essentially have a reset button, and we should use it, as in this game a claimed finder is pretty useless if even a few of the possible role that could mess it up are out there.

[Niniel]

Telling the truth, I would normally not vote for someone that claims finder (that´s why I backed off yesterday) but BG has played very scummy and I just can´t believe him. I also think that a game of this size would have more investigative roles.

[Sakaea]

Gaming the mod is a bad idea. We can't be sure there's a backup finder, and I wouldn't wanna gamble on that.

Other investigative roles, yeah, I'm sure there are. But IMHO there's nothing as good as a regular cop.

[Nynaeve]

I do understand the hesitation of possibly offing our cop but from where I'm looking there are the two obvious options.

 

1) Either BG is scum who decided to declare as cop when he was in danger in hopes that the real cop goes all 'hey there, you're lying, I'm the cop'.... that way he would at least do his amigos a favor and flush out the cop as he goes down.

 

2) He is the real cop. Only quite a few of us (from the active players at least) trust him as far as we can throw him... so we won't necessarily follow his lead. And he himself doesn't even trust the results he's getting because he believes that his views are being manipulated by scum.

 

If I understood correctly Levity was the one who did that this last night but that doesn't rule out the option that the baddies have some form to screw with his readings as well. So to me, keeping him and then not believing his read later on or second guessing his read because we don't know if he got a a person's real alliance.... pretty much gives us nothing to work with. It would be just as much of a guess work as not having a cop at all.

 

 

In any case, I do think his behavior is scummy and I believe that option one is the one we're dealing with. But looking at it in a neutral way also shows (IMO) that even if he is the cop the only thing he'll manage to do is make us run in circles and rob us of valuable days.

 

 

 

 

 

Nyn

[loki redfern]

Gaming the mod is a bad idea. We can't be sure there's a backup finder, and I wouldn't wanna gamble on that.

Other investigative roles, yeah, I'm sure there are. But IMHO there's nothing as good as a regular cop.

 

we cant be sure that there isnt a backup, no, but like nyn said grins is at best a wifom generator, and at worst mafia.

 

usually i would hesitate a little more in lynching a finder without much more evidence, but you have to take into account the game set up (not gaming the mod or gambling or whatever).

 

that is there are roles out there that will screw up finding ability, is pretty much 100% given, levity as proof.

 

its also pretty likley that in kitchen sink game the mafia will have one of the 'screwy' roles

 

hence even if you believe the claim, grins is pretty much useless as a finder.

 

now the gamblely part: the fact that there was a backup healer makes me pretty sure that there is also a back up finder. the only thing stoping them going active is that grins is still alive.

if we lynch grins, they go active. importantly they will be unclaimed - that means their results will be way more reliable

as no one will be targeting their night actions with any screwy role.

[Netbattler11]

Trying to remember if i'm voting BG right now... Oh well...

 

UNVOTE VOTE BG

 

That fixes everything.

 

I think that as he's teh main source of conflict at the moment, we should get him out of teh way. Yes, its a risk, but one I think we should take.

[loki redfern]

... im not even sure where to go with that last one...

[WWWwombat]

I am not suggesting that anyone counterclaim BG yet. I would rather if a cop were to counterclaim BG that that cop had a guilty result on someone other than BG before claiming. That way we could catch two scum. Lynching an uncountered cop claim without hard evidence of guilt is utterly inane and doing the mafia's work for them.