[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[Blackhoof]

first of all I have two reasons for ignoring the debate

1. Limited Time

2. It appears to me to be Townie vs Townie

 

very scummy nolder. skimming is scummy, and acting like an entire pages worth of argument is not worth your time is even worse. sure you may have limited time, but that just means you read all you can in the time you have so that when you get around to posting you can post informed. activity is good, but activity at the cost of actually reading the game?

 

and how would you have any idea if this is townie vs townie? you whole "this is a waste of time, stop arguing" smacks of you trying to protect a teammate by protecting both of them.

[Matty boii]

Challenging observations there Maw... It made me re-analyze my vote, Ledinna's vote was sus, but when questioned she doesn't respond, that just settles it for me! I don't need any more evidence on this one, it's a no-brainer. UNVOTE... VOTE: Ledinna

[Nolder]

and how would you have any idea if this is townie vs townie?

I did read portions of it

that was the impression I got

[John E. Kelley]

and how would you have any idea if this is townie vs townie?

I did read portions of it

that was the impression I got

 

I get that impression from Meesh, but BG, not so much.

[amegakure]

today has been absolutly horrible.. so please excuse my absense tonight... i wont be doing a reread till tommorow. But just in case in support of a majority lynch...i will vote Dinna

[Blackhoof]

i really do hate having an unknown deadline....

[ed2funy]

sorry y'all, but reply will come later.

Le Army decided to abuse my sleep schedule today, and I didn't have time on CQ.

[SBoydW]

@Red: Skimming?

@Corrosive: Not really I just don't think BG or Meesh are very scummy and their argument is just dragging on and on and taking up the spotlight. I want to hear from other people who haven't been as active such as yourself.

 

You've also said either those exact same words or words similar to it before. There were other times you've said it but these are the oldest. And these are much more than 15 minutes old.

uhhh I don't know where you got the number "15 minutes"

I can only assume you got mixed up somewhere because the beginning of this whole thing happened when I asked BG and Meesh to chill which happened about 15 hours ago (maybe 16 now)

but regardless

what's your point?

I likely have said it a few times, so what?

 

And you're completely misrepresenting my argument if you're comparing it to a false dilemma. I'm not saying BG is the only route (as evidence by my vote change) My whole problem was that in the middle of a discussion you were all like "this argument is going no where" yet you have admitted that you haven't even read the whole "argument". So how would you even know?

I like how you say "BG" and not "BG and Meesh" or even the more correct (imo) "discussion between BG and Meesh"

you'll take every chance to take a shot wont you?

 

your "whole problem" has nothing to do with me obviously

you had it out for BG before I intervened so don't make it seem like your issue is with me because at the heart of it it's not

it looks like you want BG lynched and I got in your way so you're coming after me now

 

and I would "know" because I've been in those arguments before

many many times

I know what they look like and I can see how it's killing activity

I skimmed enough of their posts to see repetition and silly arguments

neither of them are compelling and neither strike me as particularly scummy

I base my opinion on what I saw and past experience

that's how I "know"

 

It would be nice if we could just say that everyone not posting is scummy, but unfortunately that's most of the players, so that theory is out.

this is exactly why BG and Meesh need to cool it

and you and I as well

we're obviously at odds and not going to agree

let's let other people to weigh in on the issue and hopefully get some new perspectives

 

I missed this post due to ninjaing. I'll respond to it and nol can respond if he likes, I don't really care.

 

I'm not sure where the 15 minutes thing came from either... I was on the phone at the time, so I wasn't paying total attention.

 

To the Bold: How did you get that my "whole problem" has nothing to do with you. The problem that I described is something that only YOU have done. So therefore for the purposes of that argument, my whole problem was, indeed, with you. And while I was pressing BG because I found him scummy, I wouldn't necessarily say I "had it out for him". You're again trying to imply some sort of obsessiveness that simply wasn't there. I found him scummy from his debate with meesh so I was making my case for him. Simple as that. If I "had it out for him" I doubt... in fact I wouldn't have switched my vote to you.

 

Only makes me believe even more that you're simply trying to discredit the argument because something was said, possibly about a teammate (I suspect BG), that was unfavorable.

 

And seriously people, can we please get some activity. I get there are RL issues, and they come first. But there are over 20 people in this game, and maybe half of that have been active (and I'm using that term loosely). If you are busy in RL handle that, it comes first, but don't sign up for a game that you can't be active in. [/sleep deprived after a crappy night at work rant]

[Nolder]

like I said you were going after BG before I said anything

the only reason you're talking to me now is because I supposedly "came to his rescue" in your eyes

the reason you switched your vote is this connection you've made between me an BG (which is still ridiculous btw as I pointed out earlier)

if I hadn't said anything you wouldn't be voting me

or

hmmm how can I make this clearer?

 

my scumminess is dependent on BG's scuminess which you have already predetermined

 

if I hadn't said anything you wouldn't find me scummy but this still entirely hinges on BG being scum which isn't actually determined you're just taking it as a given to attack me

[SBoydW]

like I said you were going after BG before I said anything

the only reason you're talking to me now is because I supposedly "came to his rescue" in your eyes

the reason you switched your vote is this connection you've made between me an BG (which is still ridiculous btw as I pointed out earlier)

if I hadn't said anything you wouldn't be voting me

or

hmmm how can I make this clearer?

 

my scumminess is dependent on BG's scuminess which you have already predetermined

 

if I hadn't said anything you wouldn't find me scummy but this still entirely hinges on BG being scum which isn't actually determined you're just taking it as a given to attack me

 

Riiiiighhhhhttt... isn't that how people come to conclusions about other people in these games? They read what they say an draw conclusions... So no If you had not made the post you had, we wouldn't have had this conversation and I would have gone on with my case against BG. But the fact is you DID post. I DID find it scummy and now am voting for you.

 

And no, this doesn't hinge on BG being scum. Do I think he is yes. However, since we're talking "wouldn'ts" "woulds" and "ifs" here, I still would have found you're initial statement very scummy even if I hadn't though BG was scummy. The fact that you want people to stop debating (when it's not a flame fest), whatever your reason, is scummy in my eyes.

 

Italics: What are you trying to make clear exactly? The fact that if you hadn't said anything I couldn't have drawn a conclusion from your lack of posting? If that's the point the yes, I agree. If you hadn't said anything I couldn't have drawn a conclusion from that. Very insightful . Totally meaningless though.

[Nolder]

my point is you didn't find me scummy before I "saved BG" (again your POV is still...kind of dumb considering BG wasn't arguing with himself), the only reason you're attacking me right now is because you're viewing me as some kind of obstacle in your way to BG

 

my reason for wanting MEESH and BG to stop arguing (and now me and you) is because it is distracting everyone

these arguments have taken a spotlight and pretty much all scumhunting has ceased

why don't we put aside our arguments (we're all repeating ourselves at this point) and put our focus on other players? we don't have a deadline and as long as we're reasonably active we have time to hunt

 

honestly I'm going to take my own advice

I'm done arguing with you for the moment

if I don't stop myself now I'll just keep going and going

unless something crops up I'll try to make some cases on some of our more inactive players as well

that'll be probably tomorrow when I go home

[SBoydW]

 

these arguments have taken a spotlight and pretty much all scumhunting has ceased

 

 

I haven't stopped scum hunting.

 

If other people are lazy then we'll end up with a rushed desperation vote, or a random modkill on a non-voter... Both of which are more beneficial to scum than town.

 

Any how, seems that discussing further with you would go no where since you're stopping.

 

BTW more than one debate can happen at a time. If it's true that people aren't posting because we happening to debating/discussing/arguing, whatever, then that's sad, and I'll consider being asked to be replaced. I don't want to play in a game with a bunch of scared sheep.

[bgrishinko]

these arguments have taken a spotlight and pretty much all scumhunting has ceased

 

 

I haven't stopped scum hunting.

 

If other people are lazy then we'll end up with a rushed desperation vote, or a random modkill on a non-voter... Both of which are more beneficial to scum than town.

 

Any how, seems that discussing further with you would go no where since you're stopping.

 

BTW more than one debate can happen at a time. If it's true that people aren't posting because we happening to debating/discussing/arguing, whatever, then that's sad, and I'll consider being asked to be replaced. I don't want to play in a game with a bunch of scared sheep.

 

Kind words from our friendly neighborhood Boyo.

[bgrishinko]

That being said: Here is a post count for reference. This game started... a week and a day ago. We have 20 pages of content (assuming 20 posts a page) with a total of 387 replies.

 

Nolder 55

mmeeshal 41

Mr. Soy Boyo 37

Amadine 24

bgrishinko 21

Leyrann 20

amegakure 20

ed2funy 17

Levity 16

Blackhoof 15

Red2111 13

Sakaea 12

WWWwombat 11

Leelou 11

Despothera 9

keyholder21 9

Song of Ice and Fire 8

Nynaeve 8

cosmicpanda 7

Ishmael Forsaken 6

Ledinna Sedai 6

Spirit1025 5

Mawthtex 5

Corrosive Stare 5

Turin Turambar 4

Verbal32 2

Arlow 1

 

In comparison to other games I've been in, this is a fairly active good turnout. There are a few observers here sitting back which is normal. So, who are your scared sheep then?

 

EDIT: Formatting problems

[Leyrann]

I'd say that you should be called inactive if you have less than one post each RL day. Does everyone agree with me?

[WWWwombat]

Probably. Also, can we get a vote count?

[Turin Turambar]

That's probably fair enough. My only (bad) defense is that I still don't really get the whole D1 tricks for casing folks on the small things. It takes me a little longer to figure things out. For me to be all "FoS at player X for being the fourth person to post about topic Z." Is not me and feels wrong. Even commenting on the Nol/Soyo thing is a total crapshoot. I guess it is about laying a groundwork of previous statements to look at later. I am better at analyzing the history of the posts with refrence than digging out the clues as it were.

 

All that said it has been overall quiet lately with the obvious exceptions that most are aware of. I'll read it again and see what I can find and try to give some thoughts.

[SBoydW]

That being said: Here is a post count for reference. This game started... a week and a day ago. We have 20 pages of content (assuming 20 posts a page) with a total of 387 replies.

 

Nolder 55

mmeeshal 41

Mr. Soy Boyo 37

Amadine 24

bgrishinko 21

Leyrann 20

amegakure 20

ed2funy 17

Levity 16

Blackhoof 15

Red2111 13

Sakaea 12

WWWwombat 11

Leelou 11

Despothera 9

keyholder21 9

Song of Ice and Fire 8

Nynaeve 8

cosmicpanda 7

Ishmael Forsaken 6

Ledinna Sedai 6

Spirit1025 5

Mawthtex 5

Corrosive Stare 5

Turin Turambar 4

Verbal32 2

Arlow 1

 

In comparison to other games I've been in, this is a fairly active good turnout. There are a few observers here sitting back which is normal. So, who are your scared sheep then?

 

EDIT: Formatting problems

 

Post counts have nothing to do with it. I could post 100 times and be as active as if I posted 0 times. Activity has to do with contributing to the game. The majority of the people who have signed up for this game have not contributed, or posted an original point of view.

 

So far this game has been You (BG), Nol, mmeesh and I. With a dash of Red, ed, and Hoof.

 

My terminology was harsh, whatever, I can't take it back. Doesn't detract from my point. So I'm going to step back from the game and see if me not arguing with you or nol, engourages activity.

 

BTW you can't count amadine in that count she's the mod. Sad that she's #4 in post count.

[Sakaea]

I've been posting when I have something to say. The whole BG/Meesh/Nolder thing, I've been reading it, and it just feels like town-on-town to me still.

 

VC would be awesome. And a deadline would also be nice...

[Red2111]

just comming back in to say i haven't disappeared. i need to read a few pages to catch up; will post my thoughts later tonight

[Ledinna Sedai]

Did you want to lynch Leelou?

sure

I still do

Excuse me? Why? I haven't seen anything to justify this.

Welcome Turin! And Spirit - just play, then you'll know in the next game more of how everybody's going to react. I'm pretty new in mafia too.

 

Vote Nolder

I think he's being rather too aggressive.

*blinks*

 

*blinks again*

 

this is a joke, right?

 

no, apparently not, as you haven't managed to come back and explain it at all.

 

Check page 15, just sayin'

(still can't use the multiquote :P)

[mmeeshal]

these arguments have taken a spotlight and pretty much all scumhunting has ceased

I also take issue with this statement. You're implying that the arguments themselves are not scumhunting when, in fact, I know AT LEAST that I am only discussing this BECAUSE I'm scumhunting. It's ridiculous for you to so lightly dismiss and openly refuse to read a discussion that gives the town info.... As Boyo said, what people say is what we have to go on, that's how we get information, so by that token everyone who is talking about the game is helping. Maybe initially my discussion with BG seemed pointless to you, but if you stopped reading, how would you know it continued to be so? And you haven't acknowledged that other people, when reading the entirety of the discussion, are also seeing something off with BG. Why are you ignoring that?

 

And why are both you and BG trying to discredit this whole thing so much? Nol, you're basically saying "It's so ridiculous I'm refusing to read it, and it's shut down activity, so it's all your guys' fault if things aren't going well!" which is definitely a blatant attempt to get people to ignore the discussion and any points brought up.

 

BG, you leapt at the chance to cool it (you did, whether it was dramatically or not--yes, I had said all I had to say at the time but I didn't agree to let it go, hence why I brought it up later when I had more thoughts about Nol's weird thing; but you were like, "yes, let's call a truce, and stop this" which meant you did not want to keep discussing it and you were taking Nol's statement as an out) and now you're ignoring the discussion and just pointing out one little thing that may have been exaggeration on Boyo's part to try and turn everyone against him so they won't listen to anything else he's said.

 

On blaming the discussion for killing activity, that is not the case. Nothing we've said has discouraged other people from weighing in--that is everyone's individual choice, and it's not up to any of us to make the game extra-comfortable for each other. This is not a comfortable game, so if you're playing, I'm assuming you know what to expect and are willing/able to handle it and keep playing to the best of your abilities. Thus, I play the game and oh well if someone doesn't like my tone or what I'm saying--I'm just doing my job here.

 

So yeah--Nol and BG are trying really hard to shove the whole issue under the rug, and to discredit those of us who are pointing out the scumminess we see. Why would they do that if our accusations are unfounded?

[bgrishinko]

I was about to agree with you Meesh, but then I got to the 2nd paragraph. I agree that you were laying into me because you were scumhunting. I poked you for the same reason. I don't think it was a fruitless conversation at all, but I think we made all our points we needed to make at each other and then started talking in circles which is where I start agreeing with Nolder that we could move on from it. As you said in the following post that you "had nothing more to say." We don't need to act like it never happened, I'm not sweeping it under the rug at all, but the reactions from other people about our quarrel are more interesting to me now than our actual quarrel.

 

Besides, not to spell it out to you, but the asute reader would know that my ask for a truce was in our best interest.

[John E. Kelley]

I was about to agree with you Meesh, but then I got to the 2nd paragraph. I agree that you were laying into me because you were scumhunting. I poked you for the same reason. I don't think it was a fruitless conversation at all, but I think we made all our points we needed to make at each other and then started talking in circles which is where I start agreeing with Nolder that we could move on from it. As you said in the following post that you "had nothing more to say." We don't need to act like it never happened, I'm not sweeping it under the rug at all, but the reactions from other people about our quarrel are more interesting to me now than our actual quarrel.

 

Besides, not to spell it out to you, but the asute reader would know that my ask for a truce was in our best interest.

 

I disagree. In who's best interest? Town's? Because I think town is getting a ton of information, about you and Meesh both. For that matter, Nol and Soy as well. The info that I've gathered to this point is that Meesh is town, without a doubt, either that or she's the best scum-as-town player I've seen in a while. Soy I get a null tell from, but you and Nol are seriously taking it too far. It could be cornered townie syndrome but I just doubt it. Not only from your posts in this game, but to utilize a little meta here, what the hell has happened to the both of you this go-round? Neither of you have ever played this type of game, at least, in any I've been in with you two. Why the change? Just doesn't smell right to me.

[bgrishinko]

(misspelled astute. blast.)

 

Fair enough Ishy, but I know what I'm doing.