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Why has Rand angered Egwene on purpose?


Randommer
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Rand has, as he put it, 'poured hot oil into the White Tower which will be boiling soon'. He knew Egwene was going to gather his own armies against him, which would in effect depose him completely if he was a regular old emperor. He could have taken an hour to explain himself better in the WT and he could have gathered the monarchs in one place himself without much effort at all. They'd all have wanted to be part of that meeting.

 

Instead, he's set himself against the WT for some reason. Why? Is he trying to strengthen his nations' ties to the WT, or to destroy them entirely? To put Egwene in a precarious position so he can make demands of her? None of the above? It just seems a very dangerous move if he has no reasons for it.

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I don't think Rand intended to set the WT against him(though he probably knew it would be). I think he was just simply stating his intentions, with the added bonus of Egwene gathering everybody together for him.

After all he had quite a lot to sort out, what with maradon, the borderlanders ect.

He probably thought Egwene the best positioned to get everyone together at once, as AS have been dealing with rulers for thousands of years and no one refuses a summons from the Amyrlin Seat.

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No, He deliberately gave Egwene info that she would have a serious problem dealing with. He did it because SHE is the Amyrlin of the White Tower, I don't think a bunch of powerful women living in a white tower is an accident. Rand is telling Egwene that SHE must come out of her ivory tower. It's a blatant reference.

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I also think part of his motivation is that he knows all these forces are going to have to work together after the LB has come and gone, they need a bit of unity. Right now their only source of unity is Rand forcing them to work together. He puts Egwene in a position to kind of be a leader of a coalition after he is gone, as Rand has already resigned himself to dying in the LB.

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I also think part of his motivation is that he knows all these forces are going to have to work together after the LB has come and gone, they need a bit of unity. Right now their only source of unity is Rand forcing them to work together. He puts Egwene in a position to kind of be a leader of a coalition after he is gone, as Rand has already resigned himself to dying in the LB.

That's my thought also.

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I also think part of his motivation is that he knows all these forces are going to have to work together after the LB has come and gone, they need a bit of unity. Right now their only source of unity is Rand forcing them to work together. He puts Egwene in a position to kind of be a leader of a coalition after he is gone, as Rand has already resigned himself to dying in the LB.

 

This. But also the fact that he wants Egwene to gather as many forces as possible. I think Rand thinks he can convince everyone that he's right in breaking the seals. He should, it makes sense, even with a few weakened seals still there the Dark One is close to plunging the entire world into anarchy and countless of people are about to die of famine because of the way he's affecting the world. Besides, he's the strongest Ta'veren that has ever existed and he has Perrin there to help, and perhaps Mat as well. I don't think Egwene can stand up to that, and Rand knows it. They've gathered every Army there except the Aiel, who are loyal to him anyway, he will use those armies to march for the last battle. This is a common theme for him, think of the way he announced himself Car'a'carn.

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As Rand stated, later on, that he is going to break them anyway. It is a method of gathering everyone together so that he can provide his conditions (or demands) in exchange for him going to the Last Battle. He was manipulating her to action, and part of that action was to meet at the fields of Merilor, but there may be more to it. I like Durinax's idea, of manipulating all of the Aes Sedai with access to a good library.

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My 2 cents (as we don’t have a Rand POV after VoG)

 

Rand is no longer a boy/young man. He has now gained the wisdom of not only a long life, but one where he was a Leader of Man.

 

Further, I think that Rand recognizes that everyone is off on their own personal tangent that is not doing anything to solve the burning question of the hour, how do we seal the bore. There is really no question more important than that. Maybe Rand knows how to do it, maybe he doesn’t. What we do know, and we know Rand understands this, is that he can’t do it alone, whatever the solution is, he needs everyone focused on the solution, not the problem.

 

The fight that will occur at TG is immaterial if there is no solution for dealing with the root of the problem, the bore.

 

So the problems facing Rand are, in order or importance:

 

1) How do I seal the bore

2) How do I survive long enough to do it

3) Is there anything else that I can do to minimize the damage to my friends/ally’s

4) Can I save my own hide

 

His visit to the White Tower was calculated to get those that can help solve his number one problem focused on it.

 

The side benefit to riling up the White Tower is that it also serves to focus the forces available to assist in getting him in position to implement whatever solution is decided upon.

 

Rand’s “poking” at the beehive that is the White Tower was a calculated move that served to focus all of its resources into helping him solve his 2 major problems in dealing with the problem that is the Dark One.

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No, He deliberately gave Egwene info that she would have a serious problem dealing with. He did it because SHE is the Amyrlin of the White Tower, I don't think a bunch of powerful women living in a white tower is an accident. Rand is telling Egwene that SHE must come out of her ivory tower. It's a blatant reference.

 

By congratulating her? Apologizing for not meeting her sooner? Stating that he wished he had someone to share the burden with? Telling her that he needed Aes Sedai help?

 

I really do not understand what you're getting at here...

 

he did it because egwene has access to the largest library in the known world, as well as a wealth of objective thinkers. He is hedging his bets, plus he is ensuring Egwene has total control of the AS

Despite what he said, Rand clearly has no real expectations that Egwene woudl "Plan" anything. He gave her absolutely zero information. The only thing she's able to plan is how to try to stop him, and that's his own fault, and purposely so. Yes, he SHOULD be getting Min access to those minds and that library, but he's clearly not.

 

Considering Rand's final plan is still basically

 

1. Break the seals

2. ?????

3. Victory

 

Would he be able to build the force big enough, soon enough? Most leaders look for something a bit more solid before committing an army.

This is hilarious, and true.

 

I also think part of his motivation is that he knows all these forces are going to have to work together after the LB has come and gone, they need a bit of unity. Right now their only source of unity is Rand forcing them to work together. He puts Egwene in a position to kind of be a leader of a coalition after he is gone, as Rand has already resigned himself to dying in the LB.

 

This. But also the fact that he wants Egwene to gather as many forces as possible. I think Rand thinks he can convince everyone that he's right in breaking the seals. He should, it makes sense, even with a few weakened seals still there the Dark One is close to plunging the entire world into anarchy and countless of people are about to die of famine because of the way he's affecting the world. Besides, he's the strongest Ta'veren that has ever existed and he has Perrin there to help, and perhaps Mat as well. I don't think Egwene can stand up to that, and Rand knows it. They've gathered every Army there except the Aiel, who are loyal to him anyway, he will use those armies to march for the last battle. This is a common theme for him, think of the way he announced himself Car'a'carn.

 

I also agree with this. Rand has shown that he does think about what comes next. The Schools are perfect examples, he doesn't want information lost the way it was during the breaking.

 

I'm still not 100% sure on gathering armies though. It just seems rather convoluted. It makes zero sense for Rand to trick Egwene into doing something she likely would have done had he simply asked. Furthermore, I don't really think it will be that sort of battle, though it might go on simultaneously (like Falme). Either way Rand won't be leading it, it would likely be Mat. Rand will go all "fellowship of the Dragon" and take a small party to Mordor Shayol Ghul to fight the DO. Maybe stop in and rescue Lanfear cause one of his chicks dies on the way and he needs a replacement fem for Callandor.

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Sorry; don't know how to use the multiquote thing properly.

 

@ damandred

He probably thought Egwene the best positioned to get everyone together at once, as AS have been dealing with rulers for thousands of years and no one refuses a summons from the Amyrlin Seat.

But does anyone refuse a summons from the Dragon Reborn either, when it comes to the last battle? I'm just pretty sure that all it would have taken for Rand to summon all those armies would have been to send a message saying, "Meet me at the FoM on such and such a day. We will discuss plans for the last battle. Gateways will be provided." No one would have said no. It would have taken like a day max to organise.

 

@ Troilen

I also think part of his motivation is that he knows all these forces are going to have to work together after the LB has come and gone, they need a bit of unity. Right now their only source of unity is Rand forcing them to work together. He puts Egwene in a position to kind of be a leader of a coalition after he is gone, as Rand has already resigned himself to dying in the LB.

Yeah that's a definite possibility. Instead of having him and his forces against the WT, he now has most of his forces with the WT, which would definitely provide more unity after he dies. But then, he will ultimately need those forces to be under his (or at least his generals') command, not the WT's, so I dunno. Still seems majorly crazy.

Edited by Randommer
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Considering Rand's final plan is still basically

 

1. Break the seals

2. ?????

3. Victory

 

Would he be able to build the force big enough, soon enough? Most leaders look for something a bit more solid before committing an army.

Well, they all eventually agreed to go where Egwene wanted, and she doesn't have a solid plan either. Nope; the argument that Rand couldn't have summoned those armies himself just makes no sense to me. Most of them are actually his armies, or at least his allies.

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Well, they all eventually agreed to go where Egwene wanted, and she doesn't have a solid plan either. Nope; the argument that Rand couldn't have summoned those armies himself just makes no sense to me. Most of them are actually his armies, or at least his allies.

Yes she does, show a united front to convince him not to break the seals. It doesn't get much more solid than that. We're less clear on what her backup plan is, she seems to suggest something "drastic", but she wouldn't tell anyone else anyway.

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Rand knew Egwene would try to usurp his command eventually. She just needed to decide what her excuse would be. So, being an experianced politician and military general, he decided to make her excuse for her. This way he controls the time and place of their confrontation as well as the topic they will be fighting over. Staging it in public just means that the victory will be more telling, whomsoever it goes to.

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Well, they all eventually agreed to go where Egwene wanted, and she doesn't have a solid plan either. Nope; the argument that Rand couldn't have summoned those armies himself just makes no sense to me. Most of them are actually his armies, or at least his allies.

Yes she does, show a united front to convince him not to break the seals. It doesn't get much more solid than that. We're less clear on what her backup plan is, she seems to suggest something "drastic", but she wouldn't tell anyone else anyway.

That's still not a battle plan. And solid plan or not, they wouldn't have refused Rand on such an important issue. He had a reason for getting Egwene to do it. Or I hope he did, or else I'm calling plothole.

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Rand knew Egwene would try to usurp his command eventually. She just needed to decide what her excuse would be. So, being an experianced politician and military general, he decided to make her excuse for her. This way he controls the time and place of their confrontation as well as the topic they will be fighting over. Staging it in public just means that the victory will be more telling, whomsoever it goes to.

 

You are going WAY overboard, she is not "usurping his command", she disagrees with this particular action, an action he clearly expected and wanted her to disagree with.

 

Well, they all eventually agreed to go where Egwene wanted, and she doesn't have a solid plan either. Nope; the argument that Rand couldn't have summoned those armies himself just makes no sense to me. Most of them are actually his armies, or at least his allies.

Yes she does, show a united front to convince him not to break the seals. It doesn't get much more solid than that. We're less clear on what her backup plan is, she seems to suggest something "drastic", but she wouldn't tell anyone else anyway.

That's still not a battle plan. And solid plan or not, they wouldn't have refused Rand on such an important issue. He had a reason for getting Egwene to do it. Or I hope he did, or else I'm calling plothole.

 

It's not her job to have a TG battle plan, but she is quite certain freeing the DO with zero preparation is probably not a great strategy, particularly when proposed by a supposed madman, and even more particularly when he seems to have no plan for afterward.

 

Lets say Rand thought he needed to kill himself because he thought he was tied to the DO, and if he killed himself the DO would die too. Should we just go along with that because he suggested it? No... even if it's right, maybe we should figure it out because there's no going back from that. But then you'll say "but Egwene doesn't even consider he might be right", well she has to put out the fire before she can start rebuilding.

 

She wanted to talk about it, he said no, she's says to herself, "well then I'm going to have to stop him". It makes perfect sense.

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Despite what he said, Rand clearly has no real expectations that Egwene woudl "Plan" anything. He gave her absolutely zero information. The only thing she's able to plan is how to try to stop him, and that's his own fault, and purposely so. Yes, he SHOULD be getting Min access to those minds and that library, but he's clearly not.

 

I agree with this. Rand never intended for Egwene to plan for a way to fight the Dark One. When he said he came to let her plan, it probably just his personal joke in that he knows that what she's going to be planning is how to stop him. Which is indeed his own fault, though her opposition itself isn't what he's looking for, and Egwene should still have been able to avoid it.

 

Considering Rand's final plan is still basically

 

1. Break the seals

2. ?????

3. Victory

 

Would he be able to build the force big enough, soon enough? Most leaders look for something a bit more solid before committing an army.

This is hilarious, and true.

 

I've got to disagree on this though. Not on his lack of a plan on how to defeat the Dark One, which is perfecly true last we've heard, but on him not being able to gather the armies. He wouldn't need to tell them specifically how he means to defeat the Dark One. Just tell them vaguely that he will break the seals and confront the Dark One. How should the various leaders know whether his means to defeat the Dark One are correct or not. They'd just assume that he knows what he's doing.

 

You are going WAY overboard, she is not "usurping his command", she disagrees with this particular action, an action he clearly expected and wanted her to disagree with.

 

I wouldn't say she's trying to ursurp his command, which is a little strong, however she has said herself that she's using his proclamation to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower.

 

It's not her job to have a TG battle plan, but she is quite certain freeing the DO with zero preparation is probably not a great strategy, particularly when proposed by a supposed madman, and even more particularly when he seems to have no plan for afterward.

 

If she can't be certain that he is mad then she shouldn't dismiss his plan without making sure there isn't some sense to it. And she doesn't know he has no plan for afterwards, so that's not her reason for opposing it.

 

Lets say Rand thought he needed to kill himself because he thought he was tied to the DO, and if he killed himself the DO would die too. Should we just go along with that because he suggested it? No... even if it's right, maybe we should figure it out because there's no going back from that. But then you'll say "but Egwene doesn't even consider he might be right", well she has to put out the fire before she can start rebuilding.

 

Actually she should make sure there is a fire first, before calling the fire departement. Otherwise they might not be too pleased to learn there was no fire in the first place.

 

She wanted to talk about it, he said no, she's says to herself, "well then I'm going to have to stop him". It makes perfect sense.

 

Actually he didn't say no, he said later, so there's no need to stop him yet. Unless she can be 100% sure, without any doubt at all, not even the smallest, that he is most definitely, completely wrong. Can she be sure of that, at the end of the month's time?

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Before going to her, Rand suspected that his words would not please her.

Though I doubt that Rand wanted to displease/anger/etc.

 

Since his Dragonmount experience, it seems that everything about him seemed pure.

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Before going to her, Rand suspected that his words would not please her.

Though I doubt that Rand wanted to displease/anger/etc.

 

Since his Dragonmount experience, it seems that everything about him seemed pure.

 

Her opposition isn't something he wants. He asks Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him. So either, he did what he did because he felt there was no other way, or he gained something through her opposition.

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Well, they all eventually agreed to go where Egwene wanted, and she doesn't have a solid plan either. Nope; the argument that Rand couldn't have summoned those armies himself just makes no sense to me. Most of them are actually his armies, or at least his allies.

Yes she does, show a united front to convince him not to break the seals. It doesn't get much more solid than that. We're less clear on what her backup plan is, she seems to suggest something "drastic", but she wouldn't tell anyone else anyway.

That's still not a battle plan. And solid plan or not, they wouldn't have refused Rand on such an important issue. He had a reason for getting Egwene to do it. Or I hope he did, or else I'm calling plothole.

 

It's not her job to have a TG battle plan, but she is quite certain freeing the DO with zero preparation is probably not a great strategy, particularly when proposed by a supposed madman, and even more particularly when he seems to have no plan for afterward.

 

Lets say Rand thought he needed to kill himself because he thought he was tied to the DO, and if he killed himself the DO would die too. Should we just go along with that because he suggested it? No... even if it's right, maybe we should figure it out because there's no going back from that. But then you'll say "but Egwene doesn't even consider he might be right", well she has to put out the fire before she can start rebuilding.

 

She wanted to talk about it, he said no, she's says to herself, "well then I'm going to have to stop him". It makes perfect sense.

We appear to be having different discussions. I know what Egwene's reasoning was for doing what she did. What I'm wondering is why Rand wanted her to do it.

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As I've stated I think Rands plan was simply to get the world(known) together. He hadn't been idle in ToM, let's face it, he's a busy man.

I think a lot of the enormity of the said task has been lost in this thread. Getting everybody to the FoM on time with their army's would take a lot of diplomatic and logistical effort, and the WT would be the perfect tool to accomplish that.

Yes he could of done it himself, but, why bother?

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Actually he didn't say no, he said later, so there's no need to stop him yet. Unless she can be 100% sure, without any doubt at all, not even the smallest, that he is most definitely, completely wrong.

 

She said we must talk about this and plan. Rand responded with that's why I came to you, to let you plan in an amused manner. Yes farther along he talks about the meeting at FoM but it's not exactly saying later in an open manner. He antagonized her...his mannerisms while doing it and the way he discusses it later make this pretty clear.

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