The Kin

[Leyrann]

Everyone is sure there are no Darkfriends in the Kin. I find this ridiculous. 1700 women, and no Darkfriends? There is an average of 1 Darkfriend per 100 people, and, for example, the Aes Sedai have one Darkfriend per 6 people. So why not the Kin? What do you think of this?

[lilltempest]

Everyone is sure there are no Darkfriends in the Kin. I find this ridiculous. 1700 women, and no Darkfriends? There is an average of 1 Darkfriend per 100 people, and, for example, the Aes Sedai have one Darkfriend per 6 people. So why not the Kin? What do you think of this?

 

I agree. Though, I think the percentage of Darkfriends in the Kin would likely not match that of the Aes Sedai, if only because the Kin are a low profile group. Of course, I think there are Darkfriends amongst the Wise Ones, too. It makes no sense that there are no DFs in either of these groups.

[LazyMonk]

where did you come with the 100:1 average for Darkfriends?

[DemandredFO]

There have to be DF's among the Kin. After all, Mat or Perrin didn't form the group.

[mackoY-kun]

After one of the twin AS, Adeleas and Vandene, died, Nynaeve and Elayne merely reasons out that there is no DF among the Kin. this is because, if there had been a DF in the Kin, the cache of OP items in ebou dar would already have been picked up by the Forsaken. Ishi is the maker of the modern DF so he would have taken those OP items and added them to his Collection of Items in that room where he gives of one of the dream spike. These things being the case, there are no DF among the higher ups of the Kin, not exactly among all the Kin. or maybe it's just one of those things the author just didn't give enough thoughts to.

[jsbrads]

A dreamspike sound not like a security measure so much as a neon sign the size of... how big are those anyway, a few square miles?

[Terez]

I had the same thought, that it's just impossible...but the 'no DFs in the Kin' logic was a part of the logic that led Elayne to narrowing down the suspects for the murder of Adeleas and Ispan...and she was right. It could be that it's true because Darkfriends who can channel are generally power-hungry, and none of them would be likely to settle for being less than Aes Sedai. Perhaps there were simply no recruiters among the Kin because they are believed to be generally weak. (Those inclined to be Darkfriends in the Kin probably are weak, or they would be Aes Sedai.)

[Luckers]

Mmm. It actually does make some sense. Darkfriend novices, or those with such inclinations, would likely have turned straight to the Shadow after being put out of the Tower, which means they would not have been ended up in the Kin. From there, if you look at the way RJ describes how people come to be Darkfriends, it makes a great deal of sense that none of the Kin were ever recruited... consider;

 

Robert Jordan Answers: By and large, each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.

 

For someone seeking actively to become a Darkfriend, generally one begins by trying to attract the attention of those who already are Darkfriends. One fairly safe way is to let comments drop that indicate that you don't think the Light is all it's cracked up to be, that praying to the Creator seems useless etc. If this comes to the wrong ears, you might be in varying degrees of trouble depending on what country you are in and who it is that overhears, but you are unlikely to get worse than a flogging from the authorities and possibly only a stern warning to watch your talk from somebody in a tavern, perhaps accompanied by a clout on the ear. Although someone might decide to slip a knife into you in some rougher areas of some towns. It's only relatively safe. By the by, claiming not to believe in the Creator is a good way to avoid recruitment by the Darkfriends. After all, if there is no Creator, how can the Dark One be imprisoned, and if he isn't, then why hasn't he taken over and rewarded the faithful? One of the fastest ways to attract attention is to show yourself willing to kill to advance yourself or simply for gain. That doesn't mean that every strongarm who's willing to slit a throat to steal a purse is a Darkfriend. Some of those might well be horrified by the suggestion. This method has its drawbacks, of course, since if you attract the attention of the authorities first, you are very likely to end up with a noose around your neck or a trip to the headsman's block.

 

Now if you consider the way the Kin conduct themselves--specifically to avoid notice--then they would be exactly the type of people whom Darkfriends specifically rule out as potential recruits.

 

If you combine the two points--that those who were inclined themselves to become Darkfriends would turn to the Shadow instead of the Kin upon expulsion from the Tower, and that those who may have been recruited would be excluded by the nature of Kin's conduct and Rule--then it does make sense that there are less (or no) darkfriends amongst them.

 

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

[Aquarius]

Mmm. It actually does make some sense. Darkfriend novices, or those with such inclinations, would likely have turned straight to the Shadow after being put out of the Tower, which means they would not have been ended up in the Kin. From there, if you look at the way RJ describes how people come to be Darkfriends, it makes a great deal of sense that none of the Kin were ever recruited... consider;

 

Now if you consider the way the Kin conduct themselves--specifically to avoid notice--then they would be exactly the type of people whom Darkfriends specifically rule out as potential recruits.

 

If you combine the two points--that those who were inclined themselves to become Darkfriends would turn to the Shadow instead of the Kin upon expulsion from the Tower, and that those who may have been recruited would be excluded by the nature of Kin's conduct and Rule--then it does make sense that there are less (or no) darkfriends amongst them.

 

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

You're going a little too fast !

True, the Kin doesn't seem a likely target (not power-hungry enough). But that doesn't mean there aren't any. Not in the leading circle as per Elayne's logic, ok, but there might be anyway.

(EDIT: "as per Elayne'logic" feels very very wrong, considering her behaviour)

 

As for the suldams, where does that come from ??? You seem so sure, like it's an established truth everyone should know about by now.

[Ala Rubra]

Weren't there darkfriend sul'dams? They're just rare, right? I thought Suroth mentioned that in one of her PoVs. It's damane that don't have any darkfriends among them, for obvious reasons.

[randsc]

But at least some Aes Sedai darkfriends were darkfriends before coming to the Tower, right? Unless there is something about being a darkfriend that ensures success as an Aes Sedai (must. resist. urge. to. threadjack), it stands to reason that a few such would have washed out of the Tower, and joined the Kin.

[Luckers]

But at least some Aes Sedai darkfriends were darkfriends before coming to the Tower, right? Unless there is something about being a darkfriend that ensures success as an Aes Sedai (must. resist. urge. to. threadjack), it stands to reason that a few such would have washed out of the Tower, and joined the Kin.

 

Have a peak at my post a few up. It touches on this.

[randsc]

But at least some Aes Sedai darkfriends were darkfriends before coming to the Tower, right? Unless there is something about being a darkfriend that ensures success as an Aes Sedai (must. resist. urge. to. threadjack), it stands to reason that a few such would have washed out of the Tower, and joined the Kin.

 

Have a peak at my post a few up. It touches on this.

 

I saw that, but I dunno. There doesn't really seem to be any sort of Darkfriend Fraternal Relief Association; it seems like the typical Darkfriend is expected to more or less make his/her own way in the world. So why wouldn't they join the Kin?

 

At the least, some would be offered the opportunity to do so. And an enterprising Darkfriend who became aware that some underground organization existed that had contacts in the Tower and offered help to women expelled would certainly look into it, wouldn't she? I would.

[Terez]

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

I have always believed it's because sul'dam can only be sul'dam in Seanchan society. There is absolutely no opportunity for them to move up in the world aside from becoming a der'sul'dam, but at the same time, why would they want to anyway? They have honored positions - some of the most honored positions in Seanchan society. And thus you don't get the same ambitious/competitive situation that often leads people to turn to the Dark.

[Leyrann]

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

I have always believed it's because sul'dam can only be sul'dam in Seanchan society. There is absolutely no opportunity for them to move up in the world aside from becoming a der'sul'dam, but at the same time, why would they want to anyway? They have honored positions - some of the most honored positions in Seanchan society. And thus you don't get the same ambitious/competitive situation that often leads people to turn to the Dark.

 

Suroth is sure there are DF sul'dam.

[hazelkrs1]

It could be a combination of both organizations not holding much appeal as targets of darkfriends, as well as the self-policing nature of both groups. The White Tower completely depends on the three Oaths as being the single method to root out darkfriends, where as the Kin and sul'dam both have more intimate initiation rituals/procedures and use more careful screening to block not just darkfriends but any who either wouldn't uphold the values of sul'dam or would expose the Kin due to either an ambitious or conspicuous personality.

[yoniy0]

Suroth is sure there are DF sul'dam.

Quote please

[David Selig]

Here:

 

KoD, Prologue

 

Elbar would need to find some Atha’an Shadar among the sul’dam, though. That was never an easy task — relatively few sul’dam turned to the Great Lord, oddly - and she no longer really trusted any sul’dam, but perhaps Atha’an Shadar could be trusted more than the rest.

 

As for the Kin, I think they have a few DF, it's just that with the limited communication between DFs Ispan had no idea about their existence.

[Lacanos]

More confusing is the lack of darkfriends amongst the sul'dam. There is no real percievable reason for that, yet it is the case.

I have always believed it's because sul'dam can only be sul'dam in Seanchan society. There is absolutely no opportunity for them to move up in the world aside from becoming a der'sul'dam, but at the same time, why would they want to anyway? They have honored positions - some of the most honored positions in Seanchan society. And thus you don't get the same ambitious/competitive situation that often leads people to turn to the Dark.

This makes a lot more sense than the explanation I'd always fallen back on to do with some desire to have a greater number of Darkfriend channelers (which even as I consider it now doesn't make sense )

 

There is some opportunity for them to move up in the world though; there are some that are members of the blood (the one Gawyn "interviews" in ToM for example, Kaisea I believe), and then we've Suroth's former Voice, who was a sul'dam who'd aspired to be a said Voice. Certainly though, I think your explanation makes a great deal of sense.

 

 

Suroth is sure there are DF sul'dam.

Quote please

Suroth, when deciding what to do about Liandrin, specifically thinks that "relatively few Sul'dam turn to the Great Lord [for some reason]" Book 11 I believe.

[Sharaman]

Consider from a writer's perspective. There is a far higher percentage of DFs among AS compared to normal populations. There is apparently a lower number of DFs among sul'dam. We've never seen a Kin DF.

 

This is because it's been useful for the narrative to have BA. If it was useful for the narrative, the author(s) would introduce DFs among Kin and sul'dam - Sanderson may do so, if it moves things along in AMoL - there's nothing to stop him. But I think the Kin will fade out of the picture in AMoL except perhaps in aiding / hindering the defence of Caemlyn where indeed, a DF Kin could prove useful.

 

Contrary to Lucker's argument, one could suggest that the Kin were always a potentially useful force for the Dark. They have street cred being respected by the local population; they wander around, more or less unsupervised. They could unobtrusively gather information, carry out the occasional "natural" poisoning, etc. They have a talent for survival in terms of organisation since they've lasted for many centuries. It is always in the Dark's interest to recruit channelers.

 

The AS know about the Kin and by extension, so do BA. Despite the contempt all AS have for Wilders, it's possible that some discreet attempts would have been made by the BA to recruit KIn. But DF Kin have never been important for the narrative so we've never seen any onscreen.

 

In fact, Ispan and Falion wouldn't have needed to torture Kin (ACoS) if there had been DFs there. Nor would Elayne's detective logic been that useful.

So there are/ have been no DF Kin simply because it have no narrative convenience.

[hazelkrs1]

Your assumption though, Sharaman, is that writers only put things into stories if they have narrative convenience, in other words if there's some impactful reason essential to the main storyline for that thing to exist then it will find it's way onto the pages. This excludes the possibility of authors putting something in for flavoring, or to help craft the cosmology or principles of the world better. It's true that the Black Ajah would be central to the advancement of the plot in many ways, but there are other reasons for them to exist. I think two of the many underlying themes in the WoT is that absolute power corrupts, and tradition sometimes restrains us to allow certain things to exist that we shouldn't, and both of these themes are illustrated beautifully in the existence of the Black Ajah. The White Tower has dominated the political arena for millenia, and has asserted that power through, among other things, it's claim that it fights solely for the Light, against the Shadow. However, the sheer numbers of the Black Ajah prove that the most powerful organization in Randland would more than likely be the one most targeted for corruption by the DO, so it can best undermine the faith and hope of Randlanders.

 

One might expect the White Tower to be more vigilant in rousting any possible darkfriend Aes Sedai from their ranks, and yet it is made clear early on that the Tower as a whole has denied the existence of a black Ajah it's whole existence, and will not suffer to listen to others suggest that the black Ajah could exist. This rigid dogmatic tradition might have developed out of good intentions (the public acceptance of weakness could greatly undermine their position of authority) but ends up leading to making it easier and easier for the black Ajah to grow and spread influence.

 

Back on point, there's no reason we should believe no Kin are darkfriends, yet it's somewhat easy to understand how they wouldn't be a high target for darkfriends, or even well known as an organization at all until not that long ago.

[Luckers]

Contrary to Lucker's argument, one could suggest that the Kin were always a potentially useful force for the Dark.

 

This is not actually contrary to my argument--I agree the Kin could have been useful to the Shadow, I was merely laying out the logic that supported the Shadow not having tapped that resource--specifically that the nature of Kin's 'walk-small-avoid-notice' lifestyle makes them unsuitable for recruitment (under the policies and methods laid down by RJ), combined with the liklihood that were any of those put out of the Tower inclined, and brave enough, to seek the Shadow, they would have done so directly after being put out of the Tower.

 

Your assumption though, Sharaman, is that writers only put things into stories if they have narrative convenience, in other words if there's some impactful reason essential to the main storyline for that thing to exist then it will find it's way onto the pages. This excludes the possibility of authors putting something in for flavoring, or to help craft the cosmology or principles of the world better.

 

Or just because it writes itself in--which most authors will tell you occurs.

 

Back on point, there's no reason we should believe no Kin are darkfriends, yet it's somewhat easy to understand how they wouldn't be a high target for darkfriends, or even well known as an organization at all until not that long ago.

 

 

It does seem unlikely though. Sammael tapped all darkfriends near the stash in Ebou Dar when looking for it. Elayne's logic on this holds true, and more powerfully than she realises, because whilst its plausible for Ispan and Falion to be unable to find darkfriends amongst the Kin, Sammael should have been able to.

 

And too one would think that if any of the Kin were darkfriends, all the benefits of recruiting from within the Kin as laid out by Sharaman would become noted to the Shadow.

 

Darkfriends one and all have a certain... desire for glory, for self-advancement... Verin's 'self-involvement' criteria. The Kin in their very natures are the exact opposite of this. Perhaps we will see some Kin turn darkfriend now they've come out of the closet.

[mackoY-kun]

The kin is believe to be only a small gathering of those put out of the power. And by definition, those put out of the tower are "failures", so to speak. The DO and other organizations dedicated to the DO all seek "successful" individuals. So they may very well not seek recruits from a group of "failures".

 

Someone mentioned poison and being in the right place. On the contrary, those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF. If your a DF, you won't have any desire to help other but want to dominate them. And if by some unlike event, your "poisoning" people will get you out of the job. No one will want to seek remedies from you, if it is know that people die on you, your sure to be out of the job. And there are more direct and sure ways to kill people, ie; foot pad slitting throats and assassins.

 

Another point is, only Elayne "thought" there was no DF among the Kin. (I don't know if RJ or BS said this in an interview or some such) But there could very well be DF among the Kin.

 

Like I said, what is true to her logic is that only the higher up among the Kin has no DF, those that know about the ter'angreal cache. Because if there was DF among them, that cache would already have been snatched up by Ishi, and added to his room collection of One Power Items.

[hazelkrs1]

Your assumption though, Sharaman, is that writers only put things into stories if they have narrative convenience, in other words if there's some impactful reason essential to the main storyline for that thing to exist then it will find it's way onto the pages. This excludes the possibility of authors putting something in for flavoring, or to help craft the cosmology or principles of the world better.

 

Or just because it writes itself in--which most authors will tell you occurs.

 

 

Luckers, stop whatever you're doing and listen: If there's anything in your book that is "writing itself in", go back and strikethrough every one of those lines immediately! I have it on good authority that Terez laid a heavy compulsion weave on you...

 

edit: sorry I'm pickin on you so much tonight Luckers, I'm probably just really tired and not making much sense, and these cherries I'm pickin are just too ripe and robust for me to pass on!

[yoniy0]

those people who seek out a "healer" profession are most unlikely to be DF.

We do have Semirhage as a counter example, though. A desire to study the human body could be interpreted by others as a healer's-tendency, even if one is secretly a sadistic psychopath.

 

PS Despo, where's the fun in giving Luckers grief if you go around apologizing afterwards?