Egwene hate thread

[guessingo]

I do not buy the Egwene as Amyrlin. She is too young. Yeah I know how Robert Jordan contrived it. She does not have enough life experiences. A 30 year has far more life experiences than a 20 year. Imagine someone who is 200 years old? One weakness of Jordans books is that he doesn't really make you feel like his old Aes Sedai are that old. I am not a huge fan of Anne Rice, but one thing Anne Rice does particularly well is make her vampires seem old.

 

Someone who is 200 years would have been born about when Abraham Lincoln was born. Thomas Jefferson was in Europe. Napolean still had an empire.

 

The Aes Sedai would not accept Egwene and she is not qualified for the job anyway. A more interesting turn would have been her realizing she isn't qualified and some older woman (maybe a mentor) be raised.

[csarmi]

I'm having some serious rage about this.

 

Normaly if a character is iritating i can deal. Irritating can be apart of the characters personality. But this... my jimmys have seriously been ruffled by this character.

 

Most of the time i don't really care that much about her, she is a okay chacter except at these points where she really gets on my flaming nerves

 

1. In part 3 DR: Egwene shows her real potential of being a annoying chit. "Nyneave is older and wiser then you listen and do what she says you stupid woman. You deserved that massive slap Elayne gave you!"

 

2. The way she treated Mat after he RESCUED HER FROM CERTAIN BECOMING A DARKFRIEND!!! after she KNEW he was coming all that way to help from her dreams, what dose she do? Pushes him around with OP. I can exuse Nyneave and Elayne for this because they come up with ligitamite appologys.

 

3. Trying to unite all female chanelers under the white tower. Right now here is the thing, that is not so bad until you manipulate the blood and ash out of them and trying to control them. She must be mad and/or drunk with power.

 

4. The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!

 

Well i'm glad thats out, mostly she isn't a bad character it's just these 4 things that really grind be gears.

 

Your post is close to impossible to read and comprehend.

 

Nice trolling.

 

It'a not trolling. I'm not a grammar nazi (english not even my native language), but enough is enough.

[sleepinghour]

Is it? Rand gains respect from Ingtar for saying something about how could he live with himself if he sacrificed a friend in the name of the greater good, sure. But Moir tells the three boys a few times she'd kill them herself if they risked victory over the shadow. Siuan says much the same to the girls.

Plenty of characters in the series believe the ends justify the means; that doesn't mean they're right about that. In fact, they are usually proven wrong. Moiraine was prepared to leave Nynaeve to the Whitecloaks in TEotW and was firmly against Perrin going back to save the Two Rivers in TSR. If the Whitecloaks had actually executed Nynaeve and the entire Two Rivers (including Tam and maybe also Verin and Alanna) been slaughtered by Trollocs, THAT would have risked victory over the Shadow. A lot of seemingly unimportant characters later turned out to be not so expendable after all.

[Kahsm]

Is it? Rand gains respect from Ingtar for saying something about how could he live with himself if he sacrificed a friend in the name of the greater good, sure. But Moir tells the three boys a few times she'd kill them herself if they risked victory over the shadow. Siuan says much the same to the girls.

Plenty of characters in the series believe the ends justify the means; that doesn't mean they're right about that. In fact, they are usually proven wrong. Moiraine was prepared to leave Nynaeve to the Whitecloaks in TEotW and was firmly against Perrin going back to save the Two Rivers in TSR. If the Whitecloaks had actually executed Nynaeve and the entire Two Rivers (including Tam and maybe also Verin and Alanna) been slaughtered by Trollocs, THAT would have risked victory over the Shadow. A lot of seemingly unimportant characters later turned out to be not so expendable after all.

 

 

hehe... soooo you're saying the ends DOES justify the means? Because as you said, Perrin had to go back, because had he not, it would have risked victory and not because it was simply the right thing to do -- victory over the shadow be damned.

 

See in order to prove your point, you need to say that it's better to let the DO win than to betray a friend, or something like that. Which very few characters would agree to I think. I think the closest thing is Perrin using his entire army to save his wife, which a lot of readers found to be selfish. But that's the type of thing you want Egwene to do? I'd prefer she focus on the big picture as she does. She feels guilty about doing it, as we see in tGH when she arrives back with mat, but it's what you need to do.

 

Even Rand does not really regret the things Dark Rand did. He simply tells Egwene he wished he had worked with her sooner so that he could have her share the blame (suggesting zen Rand would not have done anything different).

[sleepinghour]

hehe... soooo you're saying the ends DOES justify the means?

Reread my post; maybe you'll actually get it this time.

 

Even Rand does not really regret the things Dark Rand did.

Do you have a quote to support that claim?

 

He seemed so relieved. "Graendal never had him. I didn't kill him, Min. One innocent I assumed that I'd killed still lives. That's something. A small something. But it helps."

She helped him walk the rest of the way to their rooms, content--for the moment--to share in his warm sense of joy and relief.

[Himiko]

 

"I was a burning warrior, a hero called by the Horn. They won't dare face me again."

 

 

That was one of the most unintentionally funny lines in the series IMO. Not only is it monumentally arrogant and self-agrandifying, but it is also just plain stupid. The Seanchan have already faced the actual, true, honest to god Heroes of the Horn; and given that they are still invading the lands of the people those Heroes fought beside, their daring would seem to be of the level needed to face them again. Egwene... you should be embarassed to have even thought those words.

 

Particularly since, in the very next book, Tuon's plans are pretty much "Dude, you know what we should totally do again?!"

 

OK, since I don't believe I've yet made a full on post for why Egwene annoys me in this thread:

 

Early in the series, I didn't actually care one way or another about Egwene, I remember finding her pretty uninteresting in the first 2 books, and being relieved partway through EoTW when Nynaeve "joined the party", so to speak, as it was quite nice to have a female character that I enjoyed. Egwene was pretty much "Wide eyed village child wanting adventure and learning", which, honestly, I didn't really care about. Her nearly getting the others caught after they rescued her from the Seanchan was annoying, but easily written off as her fear of capture and the trauma she had suffered.

 

My dislike began in The Dragon Reborn, as, despite the fact that I enjoyed the book as a whole, Egwene's character throughout the book seemed stuck in belligerent teenager mode- "WAH, Nynaeve keeps taking charge. I will oppose her pointlessly and sulk at her. I will be annoyed at Elayne for agreeing with Nynaeve too often. The fact that I actually think the pair of them are right in my head is neither here nor there. It wasn't ME who said it, so I cannot respect it!" We also see some shining examples of her later "Its OK if I do something but not if other people do" attitude in the way she makes snide comments about Nynaeve manipulating and lying to people, despite the fact that they had ALL given the Tairen woman they were staying with false names, and were trying to keep their mission secret. She thoroughly deserved the slap she got from Elayne (which, if I'm totally honest, has been a huge reason why I cared about Elayne at all in later books XD), and the fact that she couldn't bring herself to apologise for it, despite it being spiteful and uncalled for, just compounded it. Essentially, TDR saw Egwene being a belligerent little bitch throughout and still, somehow, having two friends at the end of it.

 

Now, OK, say we write this off as Egwene having a very extended "teenager moment", rebelling against a woman who used to be her senior. Then we have TFoH. And the sequence where she bullies Nynaeve because she's worried about being told on for something she has been forbidden from doing. And then giggles about it later. And hopes she has the chance to do it again. And is disappointed when Elayne turns up instead. And Egwene sends her back with threats for Nynaeve. Because, you know, it was so horrible and evil of Nynaeve to take charge earlier, that its totally OK for Egwene to pick on and subjugate her? I have seen MANY different interpretations of Egwene's character, and various passages from the book, but I have NEVER heard an explanation that makes Egwene's behaviour in this book, towards Nynaeve, any less vile. I actually went from disliking her to finding her sickening. I cannot recall EVER reading a passage where she regrets her behaviour. She admits to herself that her actions were in no way motivated by "showing Nynaeve the danger for her own good". She has no authority over Nynaeve at this point, and thus no reason to try and bring Nynaeve under her command rather than as equal Accepted. In all honesty, I lost a bit of respect for Nynaeve, whom I adore, from this book, for not telling Egwene exactly where to get off.

 

Basically, TDR was the point at which I started to dislike her. TFoH was the point at which it turned to hate.

 

My issues from then on have been put forth already by others. Her harsh, unyielding criticism of others (not a wrong in itself) coupled with a willingness to use smaller scale versions of these same actions she so despises to help herself, without ever acknowledging that she is doing so. I don't argue that Egwene raising Accepted to AS by decree is not on the same scale as Elaida actually demoting an AS by decree- but it IS the Amyrlin ruling by decree on matters that used to be decided by testing. I don't argue that Egwene having a small number of sisters swearing to her to help her is not on the same scale as Elaida having every sister swear an Oath of obedience to her- but it is still forcing other sisters under her orders through the oath rod, something she condemns blanketly as monstrous. And yet, do we see her think "Argh, I hate to do something that I am so against, but I will do what I must." Ever? Rand is responsible for Asha'man acting not under his direct orders, because they are in his organisation, but it is a challenge to suggest that, by the same token, she must take responsibility for righting what Elaida's AS did to wrong him.

 

She is stubborn, not unforgiveable in itself, plenty of characters in WoT possess this, but when it comes to refusing to believe Gawyn could have a point about the assassins, because he isn't showing her enough deference, and ignoring Nynaeve's (who she has admitted is intelligent) considerations that perhaps Rand's idea has some merit, it becomes frustrating. Once again, not asking her to immediately change her position on the relevant matters, but would it hurt, given that we see inside her head, to see her actually give their opinion a little consideration? Yes, she is in charge, and needs to assert her position, but people in such high positions of power, it has often been said, are often the ones most in need of people tempering/ disagreeing with them.

 

Her treatment of Gawyn and Nynaeve is shabby. She is furious that Gawyn doesn't respect her position properly, but she shows his opinion just as little respect- I read someone comparing the situation to the President and a bodyguard, and noting that the bodyguard should not question the President in public. OK, but equally, if the bodyguard DOES overstep the line, or if he disagrees in private, or whatever, and the President doesn't even consider that this guy, whose job is his safety, might actually have point, then quite frankly, that President is a bullheaded, prideful idiot. As neither a Warder, nor an official part of her army, Gawyn is NOT under her command, and is free to leave- yet, when he does, she rolls her eyes in irritation and orders him summoned back. To do what, exactly? Give her some eyecandy whilst she ignores everything he says that is not "Yes, you are totally right and awesome in all ways!"? She allows Nynaeve to be tortured, essentially, in a test which a centuries old AS finds terrible enough to give the rest of the AS a dressing down, simply because she doesn't want to be seen picking favourites. So she'll allow her former friends to be bullied, instead, then? I find it amazing, and a little cringeworthy, that they have anything to do with her at all anymore. She's certainly not treated them brilliantly.

 

Now, some of these (not all, but some), IMO, can be partly excused by the fact that she is a politician, in a high seat of power, at a young age. Some. But they still irritate me.

 

The other thing that irritates me about Egwene is how she is written, particularly in later books, to be good at everything, with very little effort- as someone has said, point me to the training she has had to allow her total mastery of White Tower History and Law? The training she has had to make her better with understanding warders (of which she has had the stunning total of 0) than a decades-older AS who actually HAS a warder? The training that turned a powerful girl who could split her weaves a lot into one that the WT had nothing left to teach? I don't see it as possible that she learned all she needs to know about weaving in a few months in the Tower and a few months with the Seanchan- because lets be honest, most of her Aiel training related to being a Wise One and Dreamwalking, and if she's studied so much Tower law and history that she knows it all backwards, as WELL as having politics lessions with Siuan, I highly doubt she's having time to learn it in Salidar. As I've said before, it has been shown that she has had a wide ranging, well rounded education, and that she is naturally powerful. But "well rounded" doesn't mean "expert in everything, nothing left to teach!" In fairness, however, this is more to do with the writing of Egwene's abilities than my issues with Egwene as a person.

 

The whole "becoming Amyrlin" arc annoyed me as well. They want an Amyrlin they can kick once they get accepted back into the tower? The whole reasoning for leaving was that Elaida had disbanded an Ajah and deposed an Amyrlin. Half the Tower left. It seems to me that a more logical course of action would have been to raise a well liked AS to the shawl that most of the Salidar AS, and some of the WT AS could be behind as leader, and hope that, if they were agreeable to the WT, the Hall might depose Elaida as they did Siuan, for the sake of peace. They should have known that the moment they raised ANY Amyrlin they were committing a terrible crime as far as the rest of the Tower were concerned, regardless of how young she was, making their return to the WT that much harder. But once again, this is an issue with the story rather than Egwene.

 

I accept that other people have more positive interpretations of her character, or enjoy reading her more. I accept that Egwene has her good points. But this is a Hate thread, and that's not really what its for :P I believe there's a thread for Egwene love kicking around the boards somewhere, or there was a few weeks back.

[DemandredFO]

I'm relistening to ToM. Egwene knows Nyneave is trustworthy yet she nearly kills her for brownie points with the hall but sees nothing wrong with not taking the test herself on a technicality.

[Mr Ares]

The whole "becoming Amyrlin" arc annoyed me as well. They want an Amyrlin they can kick once they get accepted back into the tower? The whole reasoning for leaving was that Elaida had disbanded an Ajah and deposed an Amyrlin. Half the Tower left. It seems to me that a more logical course of action would have been to raise a well liked AS to the shawl that most of the Salidar AS, and some of the WT AS could be behind as leader, and hope that, if they were agreeable to the WT, the Hall might depose Elaida as they did Siuan, for the sake of peace. They should have known that the moment they raised ANY Amyrlin they were committing a terrible crime as far as the rest of the Tower were concerned, regardless of how young she was, making their return to the WT that much harder. But once again, this is an issue with the story rather than Egwene.

So a more logical course of action would be to raise an Amyrlin who might be acceptable to the Tower, but at the same time any Amyrlin will make their return to the Tower harder. You can't have it both ways.

[Justanotherfacet]

Geeeeez Himiko you're such a grey. Make some passionate decisions.

 

Egwene is enjoying herself whats wrong with that? When youre rocking out, kicking ass and everyone is loving you theres nothing wrong with drinking in the moment!

 

Btw i don't hear you whinging about how Nyn accomplishes everything too easily ;) Tsk tsk we cant have double standards now can we?

 

Youre all just jealous because you wish you could kick as much ass as Egwene

[XXX]

The training she has had to make her better with understanding warders (of which she has had the stunning total of 0) than a decades-older AS who actually HAS a warder?

 

I cannot believe BS wrote that cr@p in..it had to be RJ with his Egwene love.

[Kahsm]

hehe... soooo you're saying the ends DOES justify the means?

Reread my post; maybe you'll actually get it this time.

 

Even Rand does not really regret the things Dark Rand did.

Do you have a quote to support that claim?

 

He seemed so relieved. "Graendal never had him. I didn't kill him, Min. One innocent I assumed that I'd killed still lives. That's something. A small something. But it helps."

She helped him walk the rest of the way to their rooms, content--for the moment--to share in his warm sense of joy and relief.

 

I read it again, and you're still using the ends to justify Perrin's means. You said Perrin was right because not going to the two rivers would have risked the victory over the shadow. Perrin kay not have, but you did. Had Perrin's actions been detrimental, we may have a totally different perspective on them.

 

"I've hated you before," Rand said, turning back to Egwene. "I've felt a lot of emotions, in recent months. It seems that from the very moment Moiraine came to the Two Rivers, I've been struggling to avoid Aes Sedai strings of control. And yet, I allowed other strings—more dangerous strings—to wrap around me unseen.

"It occurs to me that I've been trying too hard. I worried that if I listened to you, you'd control me. It wasn't a desire for independence that drove me, but a fear of irrelevance. A fear that the acts I accomplished would be yours, and not my own." He hesitated. "I should have wished for such a convenient set of backs upon which to heap the blame for my crimes."

[Elan Tedronai]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

 

only gawyn deserves some sort of sympathy

[ironisles]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

 

only gawyn deserves some sort of sympathy

 

 

Now I have been staying out of this thread because I haven't read the last books and can't really say I hate Egwene.

But to say Nyn needed a beatdown? For what? Gawyn deserves everything he has gotten since he's an idiot.

[Durinax]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

nyn never deserved a beatdown, I would legitimately like to know why you think this. nynaeve accepted every order from egwene once she became Amyrlin. In fact when she got tortured in tar by egwene, she had no orders to not say something in front of the WO's.

[Suttree]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

nyn never deserved a beatdown, I would legitimately like to know why you think this. nynaeve accepted every order from egwene once she became Amyrlin. In fact when she got tortured in tar by egwene, she had no orders to not say something in front of the WO's.

 

Who knows what a troll ever thinks but it could have been referring to Nynaeve hiding her whereabouts from Eggy so as not to answer summons back to the WT?

[Never]

This makes me want to summarize my own thoughts of Egwene.

 

I have mentioned this earlier, but I don't assume anyone of you keep track of my statements so I'll say it again. When I started reading WoT I was in love, so in my head Egwene looks like the girl who tore my heart out. So I started of a little to invested, but I think that might have altered my perception of Egwene forever; I both love and hate her.

 

First, I think it might be Luckers that has a quote from Emu on the loose in his sig, concerning Egwene and the fact that everyone talks about her as if she's a real person. I doubt there is any other character, save perhaps Moiraine or Rand, that so many people have put so much emotion into, as Egwene in WoT.

 

I am currently on my sixth reread of WoT. In my experience, the more I read, the more I hate Egwene. First time I read the books, I loved her. She was "strong" and female, a lethally sexy combination. The more I read of her, however, the more I get the feeling that she's more bitchy than anyone I have ever met.

 

Egwene is:

 

1: Overly confident

2: Hungry for power and authority - Egwene's a bully!

3: Strong minded

4: Extremely hypocritical

5: Too good at everything

6: Too respected by everyone

 

 

1: Egwene never questions herself. She does not question her right to be Amyrlin, although none of the sitters from the loyalist hall had stood for her. In her mind, being chosen by an organization separate from the White Tower (as Salidar, in fact, was) as Amyrlin gives her the right to the real Amyrlin Seat. Now, let's break that down a little bit.

 

The Amyrlin is chosen by the Hall, the sitters are chosen by the Ajah or the Ajah heads, I'm not quite sure witch but I assume the Ajah heads are chosen in at least a semi-democratic setting), which means that ultimately, the Amyrlin is chosen to means that resemble a representative democracy.

 

Let us, for the sake of moving the argument forward, not discuss the legitimacy of the rebel Hall. At the time of Egwene's ascent to the Amyrlin of Salidar, it is said that about one third of all Aes Sedai were in the White Tower, roughly the same amount were in Salidar and the last third was divided amongst the other nations, as of such unable to oblige any democratic duty they would have to the White Tower. By that logic, Egwene's confirmed support from the Aes Sedai would be a maximum of 50% (Less in reality, as the Red Ajah is by far the largest, but because every Ajah has the same amount of Sitters and that we can assume all the blues would support Egwene, we'll go by it).

 

By basic principle of democracy, that would not give Egwene any ethical right to the Amyrlin Seat. If she loves the White Tower so much, shouldn't she then also oblige the democracy that very organization builds their leadership upon?

 

This may, of course, not be the right way to attack the problem. The two organizations split. Let's compare this to, say, the USA. During the American Civil War, if Lincoln had been captured or what not, would he have walked around in Texas like he owned the place? He would not; because here's the problem. When organized, geo-political fractions within a nation or organization split and go to war, then at that time there IS no single, common nation or organization.

 

Maybe an example a little closer to the structure of the White Tower might be appropriate. I am a member of a political party. Let's say we split into two fractions, one of which leaves the current leadership and the loyalists behind and form a new organization. I lead the new one. Would I then automatically presume to command leadership over the old ones? Because about half supported me and the other half supported the other guy, would my claim then be legitimate? What makes Egwene's claim to the role of Amyrlin any better than Elaida's?

 

Another point in critique of Egwene's overly confident behavior, which has been touched upon a lot more, is her inability to see anything wrong with anything she does. She just always assumes she's right, and she doesn't seem to reflect a lot over issues that are hardly uncomplicated. For instance, Egwene gathers armies that can at least be perceived as a threat to Dragon Reborn because she believes he shouldn't break the seals. Even in her inner dialogue, she does not question her opinion. She just goes along with it, so narcissisticly in love with her own brain that she just presumes to be axiomatically correct because her genius brain can't ever have a thought in it that is wrong.

 

Let's look at Egwene an the issue with the Three Oaths. Egwene just decides that the oaths do more harm than good, and opts to have them removed. Siuan talks her out of it. I will not discuss whether Egwene was right to change her mind, just the fact that she actually did. She had an opinion, based purely on her own rationality as a 19-year old, uneducated figurehead, and she changed in in a rational discussion with someone much more experienced. On my second re-read, I thought to myself: "Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful if this was something Egwene kept on doing", because SHE DOESN'T! The girl has ONE single instance of changing her mind, then just goes back to assume she knows best no matter what. AREN'T PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO CHANGE WHEN THEY REALIZE THEY MIGHT NOT BE THE CREATOR'S GOD DAMN GIFT TO THE MANKIND?

 

No, Egwene goes on like if that never had happened, never backing down in any situation and chastising more rational, more experienced men and women from disagreeing with her. I don't see how Egwene sees herself as that much different from Elaida.

 

2. Egwene cannot stand the idea of not being in control. This is very interesting.

 

I want to start of this point by referring to Plato (I read in Norwegian, so my translations will be kinda improvised), more specifically to The Republic, in which we find Plato's Allegory of the Cave. I will assume you have knowledge of this. Egwene is kind of like the one who walks out of the cave and sees the endless possibilities in the world outside her cave. Just think about it; she leaves the Two Rivers, which were at the time possibly the most isolated place in Randland. She knows nothing but folktales of the world outside. Then she doesn't only experience enormous wonder and legend through her journey to the Eye, she experience the awesome might of the One Power through Moiraine, and is told that she can be even stronger. As a young girl with dreams of exploring the world, recently out of her cave and seeing the world for the first time, I think we can all easily relate to the dreams she will conjure.

 

Then she discovers that the man she loves is actually the Dragon Reborn. She was, for all practical purposes, completely powerless when her party is surprised by two of the Forsaken. In the aftermath, she wants to help save Rand. Where would she search for the ability to do that? The White Tower, where she will be taught and eventually become one of the most powerful individuals in the world. Then she can help Rand.

 

But what happens? She is deceived, kidnapped and given into Seanchan hands. There, she experiences the ultimate loss of control, and the gradual degradation of her own will. After this, is it natural that she puts her mind to never losing her will again, never not being in control. What she experienced while wearing the collar is the sort of thing that would leave you scarred for life; it's very plausible that Egwene as a result of this develops a chronic, mental instability. In her case, I believe this to be her need for power and authority, but not necessarily from others; while she feels the constant need to abuse those that used to be "oppressing" her (which I here presume to mean having authority over her; this point mostly applies to Nynaeve, but if I recall correctly Egwene started trying to boss Moiraine around in the start of SR, although Moiraine quickly put her to her place). I have not checked this, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Egwene's qualms with Nynaeve appear shortly after she is freed from the collar.

 

If you except Nynaeve from the rule though, and perhaps Gawyn due to other reasons (such as her fear of her affection making her lose her will), it seems that what matters most to Egwene isn't really being in control, but not to doubt herself. She panics when Mesaana puts the collar on her in TAR, but she seems to be fine when she is virtually powerless, confined to her cell and under heavy forkroot after the dinner with Elaida. I think, as I mentioned a little earlier, that this would be what makes her such a douche to Gawyn; she's afraid to lose her willpower. As long as she has that, I think she will manage; however, it does not seem to me as if she would ever be willing to give up one drop of authority.

 

Egwene might be described by something resembling Stockholm Syndrome - she does not fall in love with her captor, but with the idea her captor's position symbolizes; power. Egwene was exposed to something she hated; the total lack of control. The antithesis would be Rena's position; ultimate power.

 

This is what I love about Egwene. I feel her. I hate Egwene, but I believe her character to be real. I explain her as well as I can, not as a character in a book but as a character. It's not shouted out by RJ what kind of character she is (except for the endless amount of respect EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER THAT MEETS EGWENE FEELS in their PoV's. That's annoying. I'd like to see Rand's PoV during their reunion; finally someone that might have seens just a spoiled little girl), but we are given a lot of room to interpret things like the theory above. That's something that is rather unique to WoT (based on the fantasy I have read, I might have missed tons of good ones), GRRM for instance is way to obvious about what kind of person each character is.

 

 

I was gonna do the other points, but that will have to wait. I'm tired :p

[Hadilmir]

This makes me want to summarize my own thoughts of Egwene.

 

*Slow Clap*

 

I disagree with the opinion and parts of part 1, but- *Slow Clap*

[Never]

I'm somewhat unsure how to answer that. I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't really know phrases like this one.

 

Would you say your slow clap falls under the first, second or third definition on this website; http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slow%20clap

 

:p

[Hadilmir]

I'm somewhat unsure how to answer that. I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't really know phrases like this one.

 

Would you say your slow clap falls under the first, second or third definition on this website; http://www.urbandict...erm=slow%20clap

 

:p

 

Haha, the first, I was unaware of the other two. This post was far easier to understand from the non-Egwene-hating point of view, which is much appreciated. I honestly can't wrap my head around most anti-Egwene logic, but I atleast see where your post was coming from.

 

I feel like I must contribute to this thread somehow-

I disagree!

[Suttree]

1: Egwene never questions herself. She does not question her right to be Amyrlin, although none of the sitters from the loyalist hall had stood for her. In her mind, being chosen by an organization separate from the White Tower (as Salidar, in fact, was) as Amyrlin gives her the right to the real Amyrlin Seat. Now, let's break that down a little bit.

 

The Amyrlin is chosen by the Hall, the sitters are chosen by the Ajah or the Ajah heads, I'm not quite sure witch but I assume the Ajah heads are chosen in at least a semi-democratic setting), which means that ultimately, the Amyrlin is chosen to means that resemble a representative democracy.

 

Let us, for the sake of moving the argument forward, not discuss the legitimacy of the rebel Hall. At the time of Egwene's ascent to the Amyrlin of Salidar, it is said that about one third of all Aes Sedai were in the White Tower, roughly the same amount were in Salidar and the last third was divided amongst the other nations, as of such unable to oblige any democratic duty they would have to the White Tower. By that logic, Egwene's confirmed support from the Aes Sedai would be a maximum of 50% (Less in reality, as the Red Ajah is by far the largest, but because every Ajah has the same amount of Sitters and that we can assume all the blues would support Egwene, we'll go by it).

 

By basic principle of democracy, that would not give Egwene any ethical right to the Amyrlin Seat. If she loves the White Tower so much, shouldn't she then also oblige the democracy that very organization builds their leadership upon?

 

 

TGS "I was raised by the rebels, Siuan." Egwene said sternly. "These women deserve the chance to stand for me as well. Otherwise, I will never have a claim to their loyalty. The ceremony must be performed again."

 

Both sides have stood for her and the ceremony has been performed in the WT...

[Puny]

I'm somewhat unsure how to answer that. I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't really know phrases like this one.

 

Would you say your slow clap falls under the first, second or third definition on this website; http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slow%20clap

 

:p

 

Lol... I think he means the first definition.

Your point about her fear of loosing controll and how the Seanchan captivity changed her and made her act as she does now was really interesting. Makes me see her in a tad more positive light. I must also say I love your response, your say what you feel without bashing anyone. +1 to you.

[Never]

Have you read TGS?

 

TGS "I was raised by the rebels, Siuan." Egwene said sternly. "These women deserve the chance to stand for me as well. Otherwise, I will never have a claim to their loyalty. The ceremony must be performed again."

 

Both sides have stood for her and the ceremony has been performed in the WT...

 

 

Yes I have, and I have considered your point. However, I chose to let out because I didn't feel it was relevant. When Egwene is raised towards the end of TGS, she has already spent a better part of the book claiming to be their Amyrlin. Her position is justified after the unification of the Tower, but that was never my point (although I realize I didn't specify that in the original post, my mistake).

 

Haha, the first, I was unaware of the other two. This post was far easier to understand from the non-Egwene-hating point of view, which is much appreciated. I honestly can't wrap my head around most anti-Egwene logic, but I atleast see where your post was coming from.

 

I feel like I must contribute to this thread somehow-

I disagree!

 

Ah :-) Thank you, then! I too find a lot of the anti-Egwene-fraction to be to quick to point their fingers at anything Egwene does at times.

 

Lol... I think he means the first definition.

Your point about her fear of loosing controll and how the Seanchan captivity changed her and made her act as she does now was really interesting. Makes me see her in a tad more positive light. I must also say I love your response, your say what you feel without bashing anyone. +1 to you.

 

 

Thanks :-) I will finish the last points later tonight or tomorrow, although they are less interesting.

[Elan Tedronai]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

nyn never deserved a beatdown, I would legitimately like to know why you think this. nynaeve accepted every order from egwene once she became Amyrlin. In fact when she got tortured in tar by egwene, she had no orders to not say something in front of the WO's.

 

 

when your superior gives you an order to return to the WT you do so immediately.

[Durinax]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

nyn never deserved a beatdown, I would legitimately like to know why you think this. nynaeve accepted every order from egwene once she became Amyrlin. In fact when she got tortured in tar by egwene, she had no orders to not say something in front of the WO's.

 

 

when your superior gives you an order to return to the WT you do so immediately.

yes, and she did

[Suttree]

nynaeve needed the beatdown. It doesn't matter how good you're at healing or if you are equal to semirhage in the power. You don't follow orders from a superior or try to avoid them, then don't be suprised when the hammer comes down.

nyn never deserved a beatdown, I would legitimately like to know why you think this. nynaeve accepted every order from egwene once she became Amyrlin. In fact when she got tortured in tar by egwene, she had no orders to not say something in front of the WO's.

 

 

when your superior gives you an order to return to the WT you do so immediately.

yes, and she did

 

Not really, she avoided Eggy and hid her whereabouts for some time in order to not come back.