The Amyrlns anger

[Clayden69]

Creating a thread specifically for this. Sorry if its a repeat thread.

 

Who here thinks that the foretelling of Rand facing the Amyrlins(Egwene) anger has been fulfilled in ToM?? I personally think that this "confrontation" has/had the potential for soemthing spectacular, so I'm hoping this has yet to happen as it would be a great opportunity missed, IMO. I'm also hoping that the "anger" is a metaphor for something that happens because Egwene gets angry. Instead of us seeing Egwene angry, shouting, frowning or whatever I'd rather that she sits there with no emotion like a "proper" AS, but inside she is seething and creates a plan of action to oppose the Dragon, he "forces her hand" and when Rand faces the consequences he is facing her "anger"

[Kahsm]

We probably should have asked for a split, but I guess this saves the Admins some work. Here was my response to those that claimed "The Amyrlin's Anger" chapter in ToM had fulfilled the prophecy:

 

Egwene yells at Rand to not turn his back on her, and Rand spins around... I'm guessing in surprise? Either way, with all the light flooding from his body making the other Aei Sedai all in rapture or whatever, I am certain THAT was the "anger" he would know.

 

I say this because I think he is going tto win the arguement over the seals in MoL... it wouldn't make sense that Egwene could flip out at him, and THAT would change his mind.

 

Alright, so I reread the scene.

 

There is no anger there, nothing to write home about let alone put in a foretelling. Her demand was about protocol:

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

 

After that comes the only mention of anger:

 

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullhead-edness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things—the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."

"We can speak of that when we next meet."

She frowned at him.

"And so here we come to it," Rand said. He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not. She met his eyes. Don't make me do anything I would regret, his expression seemed to say.

Could she really confine him here? After what she'd said to Elaida about him needing to be free?

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."

Neither of them looked away. The others in the room seemed not to breathe. The chamber was still enough for Egwene to hear the faint breeze making the rose window groan in its lead.

"Very well," Egwene said. "But this is not ended, Rand."

"There are no endings, Egwene," he replied, then nodded to her and turned to walk from the Hall. Light! He was missing his left hand! How had that happened?

 

And I quoted the rest to show there's no 'knowing' of her anger on Rand's part. It's actually quote cordial. I mean come on! "she frowned at him" and "very well, this is not ended, Rand." You believe THAT fullfills "and he shall know her anger"?

[Leyrann]

My name is "Leyrann", not "Leyran".

[Clayden69]

so it is. nothing i can do about it now

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i doubt Luckers and Leyrann are the only people sick of the dead horse beating.

[Leyrann]

i doubt Luckers and Leyrann are the only people sick of the dead horse beating.

 

You mean you are too? By the way, there is something weird about the title of this thread, don't you think, Darren heron-Mark Clayden?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think it's the greater consensus.

[Clayden69]

By the way, there is something weird about the title of this thread, don't you think, Darren heron-Mark Clayden?

 

the two spelilng mitsakes (see what I did there) lol my excuse is a very bad keyboard that leaves letters out of words no matter how hard u hit the damn keys!!

 

I don't want another Egwene bashing thread I neither hate her nor love her, she would be somewhere in the middle of a list of my fave characters. This is quite simply to get peoples opinions on whether the foretelling has been fulfilled. I think that if it hasn't then there is the potential there for some very good scenes in aMoL

[lilltempest]

Creating a thread specifically for this. Sorry if its a repeat thread.

 

Who here thinks that the foretelling of Rand facing the Amyrlins(Egwene) anger has been fulfilled in ToM?? I personally think that this "confrontation" has/had the potential for soemthing spectacular, so I'm hoping this has yet to happen as it would be a great opportunity missed, IMO. I'm also hoping that the "anger" is a metaphor for something that happens because Egwene gets angry. Instead of us seeing Egwene angry, shouting, frowning or whatever I'd rather that she sits there with no emotion like a "proper" AS, but inside she is seething and creates a plan of action to oppose the Dragon, he "forces her hand" and when Rand faces the consequences he is facing her "anger"

 

I think the chapter in ToM that was titled such was merely a primer to her anger. I think we will get more of it at the FoM meeting. I think that, provided Rand doesn't suddenly bend over to let Egwene ream him up the rear with her ego, that we'll get more of it later in the book - quite possibly, and probably, when she has forced Tuon to her will. The two of them will ally, do something to anger Rand, who will confront them, only to end up collared. Then, he will know Egwene's anger.

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

Egwene is like the Weiramon of the Light's forces. Very gung-ho about making a peacock of herself, but a complete buffoon in the long run.

[Luckers]

i doubt Luckers and Leyrann are the only people sick of the dead horse beating.

 

You mean you are too? By the way, there is something weird about the title of this thread, don't you think, Darren heron-Mark Clayden?

 

Lol, I don't mind people wanting to discuss it, it's just it takes over other threads. The whole...

 

'I had this thought about the Tower of Ghen--'

 

'Did you say Tower? Egwene is an IDIOT!'

 

:P

 

My take on this subject is that it was fulfilled in the Amyrlin's Anger. Egwene needn't have an obvious tantrum for Rand to realise she's angry with him.

[Suttree]

Think it was pretty clear that this fulfilled it. We also have Rand's comments that he made her angry:

 

ToM

Light knows I don't need to do anything else to make Egwene angry with me...

 

&

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon.

[Kahsm]

Think it was pretty clear that this fulfilled it. We also have Rand's comments that he made her angry:

 

ToM

Light knows I don't need to do anything else to make Egwene angry with me...

 

&

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon.

 

 

I read both of those quotes to suggest the anger is coming...

 

"to make Egwene angry with me" to make, suggesting he hadn't done it yet

"it will be boiling soon" soon, as in not yet

 

So he has not "known" her anger yet. And furhter below those quotes is this:

 

"[...] right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done. [...]"

 

So that sounds like he knows the anger is coming up.

[Hybrid]

There is no anger there, nothing to write home about let alone put in a foretelling. Her demand was about protocol:

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

 

After that comes the only mention of anger:

 

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullhead-edness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things—the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."

"We can speak of that when we next meet."

She frowned at him.

"And so here we come to it," Rand said. He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not. She met his eyes. Don't make me do anything I would regret, his expression seemed to say.

Could she really confine him here? After what she'd said to Elaida about him needing to be free?

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."

Neither of them looked away. The others in the room seemed not to breathe. The chamber was still enough for Egwene to hear the faint breeze making the rose window groan in its lead.

"Very well," Egwene said. "But this is not ended, Rand."

"There are no endings, Egwene," he replied, then nodded to her and turned to walk from the Hall. Light! He was missing his left hand! How had that happened?

 

And I quoted the rest to show there's no 'knowing' of her anger on Rand's part. It's actually quote cordial. I mean come on! "she frowned at him" and "very well, this is not ended, Rand." You believe THAT fullfills "and he shall know her anger"?

 

Exclamation points generally denote instances of shouting, or at least forceful speaking. Given what happens in that chapter, it's pretty clear that Egwene is angry with Rand. Granted, she is not throwing a massive temper tantrum, but nonetheless it is anger she expresses.

 

At this point in the book, we can't state yet that he knows or doesn't know her anger, because this scene is from Egwene's point of view.

 

However . . .

 

Think it was pretty clear that this fulfilled it. We also have Rand's comments that he made her angry:

 

ToM

Light knows I don't need to do anything else to make Egwene angry with me...

 

&

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon.

 

 

I read both of those quotes to suggest the anger is coming...

 

"to make Egwene angry with me" to make, suggesting he hadn't done it yet

 

Here you're ignoring the pertinent part of the quote (underlined and bolded above) and taken the second part out of context to support your point.

 

When you take the quote in its entirety, it's quite clear that Rand knows that he has already angered Egwene.

 

If I said, "I don't need to eat anything else to be full," your interpretation above would state that I am not yet full. I think we can all see why that would be wrong.

 

"it will be boiling soon" soon, as in not yet

 

So he has not "known" her anger yet. And furhter below those quotes is this:

 

"[...] right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done. [...]"

 

So that sounds like he knows the anger is coming up.

 

He certainly expects her to be angry, or at the very least confrontational.

 

But you're counting your chickens before the eggs hatch.

 

We have one instance where Rand knows that he's made Egwene angry. Now it's possible that there's a second, more significant instance coming up, but we don't know that yet. For all we know, once Egwene gets some backers she will act like a gracious "winner."

 

That being said, it's entirely possible that Egwene will throw a tantrum in a fit of pique if Rand (a) decides to ignore her and everyone following her or (b) convinces everyone else that his is the proper course of action.

 

But to definitively state that Rand has not known Egwene's anger at all . . .

 

That's like stating that the Stone/Callandor prophecies haven't really been fulfilled because the Stone hasn't really fallen and the real People of the Dragon haven't shown up yet.

[DemandredFO]

It probably has been fulfilled but I still expect there to be fireworks at the FoM of a power nature when Egwene figures out she can't bully rand like Nyneave.

[Kahsm]

There is no anger there, nothing to write home about let alone put in a foretelling. Her demand was about protocol:

"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"

 

After that comes the only mention of anger:

 

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullhead-edness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things—the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."

"We can speak of that when we next meet."

She frowned at him.

"And so here we come to it," Rand said. He bowed to her—a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"

He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not. She met his eyes. Don't make me do anything I would regret, his expression seemed to say.

Could she really confine him here? After what she'd said to Elaida about him needing to be free?

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."

Neither of them looked away. The others in the room seemed not to breathe. The chamber was still enough for Egwene to hear the faint breeze making the rose window groan in its lead.

"Very well," Egwene said. "But this is not ended, Rand."

"There are no endings, Egwene," he replied, then nodded to her and turned to walk from the Hall. Light! He was missing his left hand! How had that happened?

 

And I quoted the rest to show there's no 'knowing' of her anger on Rand's part. It's actually quote cordial. I mean come on! "she frowned at him" and "very well, this is not ended, Rand." You believe THAT fullfills "and he shall know her anger"?

 

Exclamation points generally denote instances of shouting, or at least forceful speaking. Given what happens in that chapter, it's pretty clear that Egwene is angry with Rand. Granted, she is not throwing a massive temper tantrum, but nonetheless it is anger she expresses.

 

At this point in the book, we can't state yet that he knows or doesn't know her anger, because this scene is from Egwene's point of view.

 

However . . .

 

Think it was pretty clear that this fulfilled it. We also have Rand's comments that he made her angry:

 

ToM

Light knows I don't need to do anything else to make Egwene angry with me...

 

&

ToM

"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon.

 

 

I read both of those quotes to suggest the anger is coming...

 

"to make Egwene angry with me" to make, suggesting he hadn't done it yet

 

Here you're ignoring the pertinent part of the quote (underlined and bolded above) and taken the second part out of context to support your point.

 

When you take the quote in its entirety, it's quite clear that Rand knows that he has already angered Egwene.

 

If I said, "I don't need to eat anything else to be full," your interpretation above would state that I am not yet full. I think we can all see why that would be wrong.

 

"it will be boiling soon" soon, as in not yet

 

So he has not "known" her anger yet. And furhter below those quotes is this:

 

"[...] right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done. [...]"

 

So that sounds like he knows the anger is coming up.

 

He certainly expects her to be angry, or at the very least confrontational.

 

But you're counting your chickens before the eggs hatch.

 

We have one instance where Rand knows that he's made Egwene angry. Now it's possible that there's a second, more significant instance coming up, but we don't know that yet. For all we know, once Egwene gets some backers she will act like a gracious "winner."

 

That being said, it's entirely possible that Egwene will throw a tantrum in a fit of pique if Rand (a) decides to ignore her and everyone following her or (b) convinces everyone else that his is the proper course of action.

 

But to definitively state that Rand has not known Egwene's anger at all . . .

 

That's like stating that the Stone/Callandor prophecies haven't really been fulfilled because the Stone hasn't really fallen and the real People of the Dragon haven't shown up yet.

 

Adding the "anything else" changes nothing. I agree he lit the fuse already, that doesn't mean she's boiled over yet, which is exactly what Rand is expecting later, as those quotes clearly state.

[Entreri]

Egwene will probably have a temper tantrums like a little girl, stick out her tongue...but Rand will play her like a violin and sames goes for Tuon.

 

Rand has the advantage of 400+ years of experience and very likely smarter than she is.

[Asbrodean]

i want to see egewene explode at rand and then rand calmly put her in her place

[Asha'Dude]

Who doesn't, man? (I mean in a point of view form the characters. Not my own personal opinion.... well maybe.)

[AshaShan]

The Dragon will face the Amyrlin's anger at Merrilor I expect. His little metting with her in TOM was just to light the fuse, as someone said.

[Hadilmir]

From the Foretelling's standpoint, I believe you all have it wrong, well... part of it wrong. To "know" the Amyrlin's Anger, Rand must experience it, he must feel the effects of her displeasure. The most likely option I see is Egwene calling Rand out on the Seals before the whole world and he will have to explain to the gathering he does not yet know what he is doing. I'm mostly certain everything will end in Rand's favor, but Egwene must first experience some victory somewhere along the line for prophecy's sake.

[Turin Turambar]

All that would be needed to fulfill this prophecy would be for Egwene to initiate some action towards Rand that will illustrate her "anger". The action does not need to be successful.